of the practice. So it's based on, it's based on our own experience and on our own verification. When we take refuge in the Dharma, we enter the path of transformation, the path to end suffering. When we take refuge in Sangha, we focus our energy on building a community that dwells in mindfulness. So, as I said, there's two steps to the process of initiation. There's the step of going for refuge and then the undertaking of the precepts. Uh, by the former step one commits oneself to the three jewels

[01:00]

and by the latter step one spells out the principles by which one is going to live. The usual process of our Buddhist initiation and actually of almost all of our ceremonies, for those of you who've been around, is beginning with first with an avowal of our karma, all my ancient twisted karma from beginningless greed, hate and delusion, I now fully avow. And then it's avowal and repentance at the same time. And then we take refuge. The refuge returns us to the center to balance. And from that refuge, then we step forward into our life. Again, we step forward,

[02:06]

uh, carrying that refuge with us like the snail's shell. So, um, I want to stop from time to time here and just see if you, please, if you have any questions, ask them, ask them now or ask them as we go along. Not sure. Laurie? I'm just wondering, the faith makes me think of, um, oh, did maybe Daniel had a question too? Go ahead. Go ahead. Um, makes me think of, well, do we believe in Buddha kind of like people believe in God or, or, um, how does it jive with that somehow?

[03:10]

That's the next portion of my presentation. Oh, okay. Thank you. Thank you. That's a good question. Daniel? Uh, do we, uh, how do we, uh, like, do we just like at some point in the, in like the day, like put on the shell and then it's just on us the rest of the day? Well, that's a really good question. Actually, there's two. The refuge is manifest in a couple of different ways. First of all, it's initiation. It's the initiation by which one enters the practice of being a Buddhist, but then technically speaking, uh, at least in early Buddhism for, for monks, uh, one is encouraged to recite the precepts twice

[04:20]

daily. And I think for us, uh, we recite them frequently in our services, in our, in our ceremonies. And so there's, along with the initiatory, uh, the initiatory expression of the precepts of the, of the refuges, there is an, an everyday renewal of them. We constantly have to renew them. They remind us of the path that we're on. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. There's, yeah. So to Lori's question, uh, there are, there's the internal and the external manifestation of the precepts.

[05:32]

Yeah. And I think, um, the external is kind of obvious. I mean, the external is, uh, the bows that we do in the Zendo, the way we handle, uh, Dharma books, the way we value the Sangha and how we conduct ourselves with each other. This is, this is the external dimension. Uh, and it's important. Uh, you know, so you could call the external, external refuges, devotion to the Buddha and Bodhisattvas. It is our study of the teachings and it is the way that we practice

[06:36]

with community. But a lot of our teachers really emphasize the internal refuge. So again, if we look at Thich Nhat Hanh, he says in Chinese and Vietnamese practitioners always say, I go back and rely on the Buddha in myself. Adding in myself makes it clear that we ourselves are the Buddha. When we take refuge in Buddha, we must also understand the Buddha takes refuge in me. Without the second part, the first part is not complete. During the Buddha's last months, he taught, take refuge in yourself, not in anything else.

[07:47]

In you are Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Don't look for things that are far away. Everything is in your own heart. Be an island unto yourself. So this is echoed in, in many different places. Uh, Suzuki Roshi wrote, taking refuge is not a good translation. Taking refuge is to protect yourself in Buddha's home. If you know how to protect yourself, that translation may work. But to take refuge in Buddha looks like to escape from this world and to go to Buddha, but it's not actually so. To be one with Buddha is to take refuge in Buddha or to be Buddha yourself is to take refuge in Buddha. There's no special home for Buddha

[08:54]

or for us. The home is always within ourselves. So it is not to go to Buddha. It is to find Buddha nature within ourselves. That is to take refuge in Buddha. And Thich Nhat Hanh also says, there's no external safety. There's refuge. The refuge that we take is in ourselves. And this refuge is our manifestation of faith. And it's the, it's the practice of faith, the activity of faith, not the activity of faith in, in something external. Now the source for all of them, I think is what we find in the teaching of the sixth

[09:58]

ancestor, Huy Neng, who is the, who is the supposed narrator of the Platform Sutra. Whether that's the case or not, I don't think we'll ever know, but someone articulated these teachings and they're very powerful to us. In the section in the Platform Sutra on repentance, he says, let the enlightened one be our teacher. We should testify to ourselves by constantly appealing to the three jewels of our essence of mind. I advise you to take refuge. To let our minds take refuge in enlightenment

[11:04]

so that evil and delusive notions do not arise. Desire decreases, discontent is unknown. Lust and greed no longer bind. Enlightenment is what he calls the Buddha. The Buddha is freedom. The Buddha is enlightenment. So that's the first gem. In the translation that I have, his second refuge, what we take as, uh, taking refuge in the Dharma, uh, he has, uh, to let our mind take refuge in orthodoxy, which is a little troublesome for some of us as a word, right? Orthodoxy. Uh, but he says, take refuge in orthodoxy means another way to express this. Uh,

[12:09]

in Soto Zen, in the three pure precepts, uh, one of the three pure precepts in the first pure precept, I vow to avoid all evil is framed. I vow to embrace and sustain all ceremonies and regulations. Now, again, this is hard for us somehow culturally, this kind of doesn't compute, but what he means here by taking refuge in orthodoxy, he says, so that we are always free from wrong views for without wrong views, we will be free from egotism, arrogance, or craving. This is the best way to get rid of desire. So that's what, what orthodoxy means actually is. And that means it in the Soto verse too, it's like to substitute these regulations

[13:19]

for the wily ways of our mind that want to pull us into these, uh, these different problematic areas. And then his last point is to let our mind take refuge in purity. And this is, this is what he says for Sangha. Let us let our mind take refuge in purity so that no matter in what circumstances it may be, it will not be contaminated by worrisome self-objects, sense objects, craving and desire. This is the noblest quality of mankind. So he takes it from the particular distortions of our mind into something fundamental about our humanness. As I said, this is the sixth ancestor. Uh, to practice the threefold guidance

[14:29]

means to take refuge in oneself, in one's essence of mind. Ignorant people take the threefold guidance night and day, but do not understand it. If they say they take refuge in Buddha, do they know where he is? Yet, if you cannot see the Buddha, how can you take refuge in him? Learned audience, each of you should consider and examine this point for yourself and let not your energy be misapplied. The Sutra says that we should take refuge in the Buddha within ourselves. It does not suggest that we should take refuge in other Buddhas. Moreover, if we do not, if we do not take refuge in the Buddha within ourselves, where else is it that we could retreat?

[15:32]

Let us take refuge in the three gems within our mind. Within, we take control of our mind. Without, and the external, we should be respectful to others. This is the way we make refuge within ourselves. One of the Buddha's most widely quoted phrases in, uh, in Bali is atadipa sarnam, which means taking refuge, sarnam, in the island, dipa, of self. So I'm going to stop there and again, leave some space for, uh, questions or comments. I, uh, I hope this responded to Lori's question, uh, but please feel free to, uh, to go ahead and ask.

[16:40]

See, Jonathan has his hand up. Hi, thank you, Hasan. Um, I, I hear what you say about the, the six ancestor teaching us to take refuge within ourselves, um, at the risk of getting into a comparative religion discussion, which I don't know is a great idea. Um, I wonder if we could say a few words about schools like Jodo Shu, um, or Nichiren, the other power schools, um, who very, as I understand it, um, you know, know that you, you absolutely take refuge in something outside of yourself. Um, you take refuge in Amida Buddha and, and you go to the Pure Land. Um, I'm wondering, and I, I hope that the answer isn't just that, you know, well, you know, that's our ancestor is right and theirs is wrong. I'm wondering if there's a way to, to reconcile those

[17:46]

beliefs. Thank you. Yeah. Well, I've been thinking about this, uh, in my experience, um, I had a really strong experience, um, this trip that I made to Rome for a Buddhist Catholic dialogue a few years ago. And they were representatives of various, uh, mostly Asian American Buddhist communities from the United States. And we met with Catholic priests, nuns, theologians, and had a dialogue about suffering. And it happened on that trip. First of all, I think I got invited because they thought I was Japanese. They thought Sanaki was Japanese. They were pretty surprised when I wasn't Japanese.

[18:47]

But anyway, I was really happy to be there. Um, and there was a delegation of Jodo Shinshu practitioners. What I, I was tremendously drawn to them because they were very straightforward, simple, uh, not simple people, but very straightforward. Their, their manner was, was simple and straightforward and they were awake. Now, one of the places I've come to is actually asking, to me, there's, there's a false dualism between this so-called other school, other power school, like Jodo Shinshu and Nichiren. This is the way it's depicted in Japanese Buddhism. And,

[19:49]

uh, the Zen school, which is not only a self-power school. I really don't accept that. And the way that I think about it is, how did I get here? How did I get to Berkeley Zen Center and walk in the door? Now I had to walk in under my own muscular power, but what called me there, I really don't understand. It's something beyond me. And I think that there are mysteries in our universe that we, we cannot understand. And I also think that we have to be really careful about what we call, uh, within ourself. So I'm, I'm looking here, you know, I see Joel and I see Diane and I see Ben and I see the top of Lori's head. Um,

[21:00]

we are all part in this visual reality. We are oneself with different manifestations. So to take refuge in oneself, I think it does mean reflecting inwardly. It means as, as I said, taking the backward step that turns the light inward. At the same time, when we turn the light inward, we see that we are home to countless sentient beings of our mind. And those sentient beings of our mind are interactive with all the other sentient beings in the universe. So the self is not so limited. It's not limited by this bag of skin to me. So I don't find that a contradiction. I don't know if that, if that answers your, your question. Well, it's definitely something to chew on. Thank you.

[22:07]

Yeah. I mean, it's really good to look at. There's a book by DT Suzuki, which kind of, uh, looks at the interrelationship of the self power and other power schools. I mean, this is a function, this is an, an aspect of Japanese Buddhism. I don't see it as an aspect of, of any other. One of the things that you see is that if you look at Chinese Buddhism or Indian Buddhism, is that they were practicing, they had a whole range of practices, uh, preset practice, devotional practice, uh, purely in practices, uh, and so forth, uh, physical practices. What, what Japanese Buddhism often did, particularly as it evolved was break each of these practices off into a separate school. So our school really highlights meditation.

[23:15]

And it may be quite true that any one practice is sufficient if done, uh, you know, if done thoroughly. But, um, if you go to down the block to, uh, the Berkeley Buddhist monastery, which is related to the city of 10,000 Buddhas, uh, you will see that in any given day, they go through a whole cycle of practices and they see that as Buddhism, not any one particular approach or methodology. So, Ben. Thank you, Hosan. Um, I was struck by something in the reading, um, this idea of relying on, which I quite like, because, um, that's been a deep Dharma question for me. What really is there to rely on? And at least one answer I've encountered is,

[24:21]

um, nothing, at least nothing permanently. I can only rely on what's here right now, but there seems to be something in Thich Nhat Hanh's teaching here, where there's some, um, something more eternal, dare I say, about the three jewels, but we, but I know that impermanence is the law. So I'm wondering if you could say something about how Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha are reliable, even though everything is always changing and falling away. Well, first of all, to translate the Chinese term, Chinese term is gui yi. And it means literally to return and rely on. So gui means to take refuge in, to lean on, to follow, to be in accord with, to rely on, to go home. Uh, and yi means support or basis.

[25:27]

And so this is a basis that one can rely on. I really like, you know, when we were, when we learned to sew, we do our sewing of our rakusu or our okesa, uh, we, we use the Japanese expression namo kie butsu. I take refuge in butsu, in Buddha. Namo kie, then we, there's also for the three of us, namo kie ho, namo kie so. Uh, but in the, in the sewing, we take, it's the, uh, the NKB stitch, right? Namo kie butsu. And, uh, I really like, uh, Blanche Hartman's, uh, rendition of that, her translation of that verse is, I plunge into, you know, I dive into, you know, and in the diving that that's, I think in an ordinary sense of life, like diving into something has some aspect of risk.

[26:37]

But what Blanche was proposing was forget about the risk, just dive into it. And that's actually what your needle does. It dives into the fabric and comes back up. So, um, that's part one of your question. Part two is impermanence. Impermanence is the law, but it's not the entirety of the teachings. In other words, you can also, you can depend upon the Buddha. You can depend upon the Dharma and by extension, you can depend upon the Sangha. There are aspects that might be impermanent, but there's, in terms of, of Buddha nature,

[27:41]

Buddha nature is in a sense, permanent. Maybe if you want to think about it, you can think of, uh, you can think that it's impermanence is permanent. Uh, but, you know, as we've been, as Lori and I have been reading, uh, we've been reading the Yogachara teachings. Uh, we've been reading the Lankavatara Sutra and some of these Mahayana Sutras, uh, get to a place where they say, this is permanent. This you can rely on. So this is a challenge. Uh, and I think we have to think for ourselves are in our ordinary,

[28:42]

in our ordinary mundane existence, impermanent is not just a good idea. It's the law. In the supramundane, the realm of Buddhas, um, there are things that you can count on except that they're not things. Maybe you can't grasp them. Like I'm thinking if one manifestation from, of Buddha is, is a teacher, right? And any given teacher might go away. Any given Dharmagate might no longer be present. Any given particular Sangha might dissolve or go away, but maybe there's something in these jewels that there's another place they will arise in different circumstances again. Right. So we're, we're caught in this conundrum. Um,

[29:46]

often we see ourselves in the circumstance of the mundane. That's, that's the, that's the, the frame in which we can understand our lives and our life in samsara is mundane. Uh, the aspiration that we're encouraged to hold is a transcendent one is one that, that uh, leans towards the unconditioned or that moves towards the unconditioned. Uh, and the unconditioned is not impermanent, but at the same time, it's not a thing either. So this is, yeah, this is difficult. Other questions for Gon?

[30:50]

So I wanted to talk about, we've talked about the internal refuges and I'm very taken with teaching that I gathered from, uh, Dr. Ambedkar in India. And I've spoken of this before. Uh, what, what he often spoke of was the, what he said was the Buddhist teaching of liberty, equality, and fraternity. And as I was thinking about that, I realized, and I spoke to other friends in India, that those map onto Buddha, Dharma, Sangha very effectively, that liberty

[32:37]

is liberation, it's freedom, it's enlightenment, and that equality is, you can see that as the Dharma. Equality, when you transform your diluted consciousness, what you arrive at first is, um, um, the jewel mirror of equality, the mirror that reflects everything equally. So that's one of the aspects of, of Dharma is that everything, nothing is without value. Nothing is unworthy of our respect. Nothing, nothing is one thing. No one is a lot harder.

[33:48]

And that brings us to fraternity as Sangha, that this is where, this is where these things play out. Liberation, enlightenment, the Dharma, the law of the universe, the law of equality, those become apparent in our own communities and our Sanghas. And this is very much what, um, Suzuki Roshi speaks of. I found a lecture. Various schools of Buddhism have different views of Dharma. Dharma includes the other two, Buddha and Sangha. In the Zen school, the emphasis is on Sangha.

[34:58]

Because we emphasize the practice of attaining enlightenment, as the Buddha did, we naturally put emphasis on Sangha. So Zen emphasizes transmission from Buddha and us, and we emphasize Sangha for those who are students or disciples of the Buddha. So the Sangha is where Buddha and Dharma play out. Suzuki Roshi says, it's necessary to be concentrated on one thing. If we have three objects of worship,

[36:01]

it's difficult to be concentrated. Therefore, we emphasize Buddha as the Sangha. And this is something that Thich Nhat Hanh also said. He is known for saying that the future Buddha will be the Sangha. So the Sangha, again, is where this all plays out. If the Buddha is an abstraction, either external to us or within us, if the Dharma is just, is also an abstraction, is something that we read in books, then the Sangha is not alive, and the Sangha will not sustain us.

[37:06]

But this is what we've been working on. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and thinking about it in terms of Sojin Roshi. You know, when I may have said this the other day, when I first came here, Sojin was in Japan. And so my encounter for the first month or two was with the Sangha. And everything went along smoothly. The schedule was maintained, our sittings were maintained, the temple was being cleaned, and so forth. And it all seemed really smooth and natural. And I didn't miss, I mean, I asked myself, how did it get to be this way?

[38:21]

But I didn't know, because Sojin wasn't there. And then when he returned, I think in December, all of a sudden, I had the awareness that, oh, here's the missing piece of the puzzle. You know, this is, I don't understand quite how this worked, or how this evolved. But I see that this is the Buddha and Dharma principle that was pivotal, that was mysteriously activating Sangha. And I've been interested in this ever, ever, ever since. Because it is mysterious.

[39:22]

It's not that, and when you read the early sutras, it's very much the same. The Buddha didn't do a lot of stuff. He probably, I bet he went to fewer meetings than I do. And he certainly didn't do email, or Zoom conferences. He just walked from place to place. And the Sangha configured itself around his principles. And this is what I saw at BCC when I first came. And it was really, really intriguing to me. How does this happen? And it's, it's been this way, that was almost 40 years ago. And it still is this way. Now, he's not here anymore.

[40:27]

And so what we're seeing, I think, you know, it's, it's not about me, what we're seeing is actually the enactment of the Sangha as the next Buddha. And I think it was very much the same when I, I never met Suzuki Roshi. And I don't know if there's anyone on the on online here today who did. But you never got the sense that, again, that he was out there, you know, putting all the pieces together, moving it all so that it all worked. There was something about his centered Buddha presence that enabled the Dharma and the Sangha to flourish. Without a lot of extra activity. And he was a refuge. And one of the things that that I think

[41:35]

that I see from talking to his disciples is that he had this mysterious quality of self by which everyone felt seen in his presence. And I think that the Buddha had that quality. And perhaps Christ and others had that quality. In a sense, Sojin had that quality. I wouldn't say that everybody felt seen but most everyone felt accepted by him. And that acceptance is liberative. That's the liberation, that's the liberative activity

[42:36]

of a Buddha. And it's not intentional. It's not like a, you know, it's not like a policy or something that you're putting forward because you think it's a good plan. It's just the way they moved in the world. And it's also to some degree circumstantial. I'm not sure that Suzuki Roshi manifested that way in Japan. But once he got here, he did. And if you put someone in another setting, if you put Sojin in another setting, maybe he wouldn't manifest the same way. So it's this great coming together of causes and conditions. And that allows

[43:38]

Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha to flourish. And it's a remarkable quality. I like to think that we can, each of us can cultivate that quality, can look for that quality in ourselves. That it's not a, somehow, something that you have to be born with. But you have to have that capacity and you have to be able, you have to want to reach into it. And you have to take, you know, for Suzuki Roshi, I think that he just had this, he had some interesting vision that he was supposed to come here. That this is where his life was going to flourish. And it's true.

[44:44]

Where is that place for you? Where is that place in each of our lives? That, where we can be, where we can feel liberated and manifest the Dharma and bring a unity among us. Bring that forth. And that's, to me, that's the manifestation of the Three Refuges. So again, I'm going to stop and leave time for some questions. Ross. Thank you, Hasan. Coincidentally, I was having a conversation with a Dharma friend today about being seen or not seen, and the distinction between Zen practice and therapy practice.

[45:53]

So when you brought up that Sojourner's Buddha was seeing people, although some people didn't feel seen, how do you discern the difference between his seeing me and not feeling seen? Where does that lie in the world of the relationship between teacher and student? That's a really interesting question. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. I think that it may be something that has roots in our family of origin. That in that family, sometimes one feels seen, one doesn't feel seen. And that might be an accurate perception.

[46:59]

Because often children come into the world in a situation in which there are people who have power over them, and might see them as instrumental or might see them as supposing to fulfill something of the parental generation's needs. So they miss who that child is. And I think that quite a number of us have had that experience. I think so, yes. The problem is that we internalize it. And then we, you know, so we carry that inside ourselves, to the extent that we believe it. We believe we're not being seen, we feel not seen, when that may not actually be

[48:03]

the situation with another, with a teacher or with another person. You know, I feel like it's for me, I'll just admit, it's something that I've had to work with in myself. And realize that this is just an idea I have about myself. Irrespective of what your teacher sees, the refuge is yours. One has to find refuge in oneself in that way. That's where, that's what this teaching is pointing you to. Does that make sense? Yeah, so the refuge has to come from within for oneself. And the teacher, in our relationship with whoever our teacher is, prompts a doubt or question or suspicion

[49:11]

or activates something from our family of origin stuff. Then we have this question about, well, how do I find refuge when this person that I've kind of given myself over to as my spiritual advisor, I don't feel seen? Is that a replay of my father? Or am I actually being shown something that I don't want to see? Right. Well, I think that the key words to me in what you just said was to give yourself over. And I think it's important for us not to give ourselves away. I think it's like, I will say, Sojin had hard things to say to me. And what I learned in time was to step back, not reject them, but step back and really ask myself,

[50:20]

assume there's something true in here. And what is it? And to look for that, rather than to get tangled up in the internal dynamics about whether I feel seen or not. But it's like, what can I learn here? To me, that's turning the process inward. Gotcha. One last question. You brought up Blanche and her translation of plunging into, which I kind of infer giving over to, being completely immersed in. And so how do you view that process of letting go and plunging into the relationship with a teacher, when in fact, they mirror back something to you or offer something to you that makes you maybe not want to plunge so deep with them? Well, I think, to me, I think it's important to take the long view. Uh-huh. It's a long swim, not just a plunge.

[51:29]

Right. We were really lucky. We had a long life with our teacher. And it had aspects of ordinariness, ups and downs. But we had a long life in which, uh, at least my experience was, he was pretty reliably himself. And then you have to forget this giving over. Each of us has to figure, if there's some place where our teacher, if our teachers, we are our teachers ahead of us, that's a good place to follow. And to recognize that there are places where our teacher is not ahead of us, and don't go there because you think it's somehow what you're supposed to do. And this is where each of us has to rely. We have to be a lamp unto ourselves.

[52:32]

Right. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Really good questions. Kelsey? Hey, Hozon. Thank you. This is kind of piggybacking off of what Ross said, and I had to get up and use the bathroom in the middle, so I might be repeating some things. But I'm wondering if, if I don't feel seen by the sangha or by you, is that my problem? Or is that the sangha's problem? Or is it even a problem? Well, I would say if you don't feel seen by me, please talk to me. And we should check it out. You know, as the sangha, like the sangha as a whole. What is the sangha as a whole? I don't know. I mean, that's the thing. I don't, I don't know. Um, is it the sangha as a whole? Or is it like a vibe that you get from a person that you project

[53:43]

on the sangha as a whole? I'm not, I'm not presupposing anything. But it's very hard. I think if we try to characterize a whole community, then probably it's going to get pretty mushy. You know, the important thing, I think, is to be as specific as you can. You know, if there's something, if there's a particular interaction that feels off between you and someone, um, check it out. But I think that we have this, we often have this cloud-like feeling of being unworthy or misunderstood. And, uh,

[54:48]

I don't think, I don't think it's helpful. I understand it. I mean, I understand how people go there. But, um, that is not taking refuge. How can you take refuge? Are you asking how I take refuge in that, like, not being seen or feeling not being seen? How do you take refuge in sangha? How do you take refuge in sangha? Or what is obstructing you from taking refuge in sangha? You don't have to answer that here. Yeah, my brain isn't ready to answer that. My heart isn't ready to answer it. Thank you.

[55:52]

Thank you. Other thoughts or questions? Alan? Yes. Can I ask a question? Or I just wanted to actually recount, and I just, you know, not exactly a question, which I know is not, not so cool to do, but, um, I was thinking, I was remembering that one time you told me, uh, after Sojin gave me some painful feedback and I was stewing about it, you said, you know, he's not saying this is what you boil down to. And that was extremely helpful. And I think we, this, when we're talking about seeing or not seeing, there's a little bit of idealizing, like, honestly, sometimes I felt like he saw me and

[56:57]

sometimes he didn't. And that when looking back, that seems like, well, yeah, of course. I mean, I think you do want to feel like your teacher appreciates you and your suchness or your essence or something. I mean, you wouldn't, I don't think you'd want to stick with a teacher who you felt bad about yourself all the time or something, you know, like, I mean, there's a limit, but, um, I do think that, um, taking refuge in something bigger than what can be seen somehow, but is somehow also part of us. Yeah. I lost a little bit there. Yeah. But I think that he's not saying what this is, what you boiled down to was really helpful. Right. And yeah, that's true. But the other thing that Sojan said, which I have always found as really guiding advice,

[58:03]

someone asked him once during a lecture, what's the most important thing for a teacher to remember? And he said, never want anything for yourself from your students. And that's, that really, that's on the mark, you know, I don't feel that. That's what he was looking for. And, you know, I've been reading a book by a friend of mine, which, which I like a lot, uh, by my friend, Gingell Marinello in, in Seattle. And by chance or by karma, he had a series of relationships with teachers who were abusers. And this is not a secret. It's all in the book. And he had a, he had a background of

[59:07]

a family background that included abuse. And, you know, these teachers, whom I won't name, wanted something for themselves. Mostly wanted sex. And it's not just what you, that, that you don't boil down to what the criticisms are of you, but also to recognize, uh, that this person, the teacher does not want something for themselves from you. Uh, in other words, they want the, what they want is for you to wake up. And I always felt that, uh, from such, and he was very generous in allowing me to

[60:10]

basically to explore refuge with other teachers, which is a risky thing to do. So let me, our time is not so long. Let me, uh, let me call on Judy Nannioni. Thank you, Hozon. Hi, everybody. Uh, Hozon, I was wondering, um, uh, at one point, uh, Jerry introduced the, um, the framing or, uh, of faith as a verb, as faithing. And I was just pondering that in the context of this conversation around teacher-student relationship. I mean, calls it entanglement or, you know, tangled vines. Um, so it's about including all of that

[61:13]

complexity and, and, and not being able to ever pin it down. Um, and I was wondering about that in terms of what you were saying about faith, if we spin it as a verb of faithing or being entangled, if that helps at all with this seeming conundrum of mutual accountability. Well, I mean, I think that's what I was saying. I think I said that faith is an activity and I would say similar, everything, the whole essence of our practice is actually about activity. You know, when you look at the end of the Genjo Kōan, when Dogen is telling the story about the master fanning himself, you know, and, you know, he tells his student,

[62:13]

uh, you don't understand the nature of fanning. You may think you understand the nature of wind, but you don't understand the nature of fanning. So it's activity in alignment with the Dharma. So faith is activity that arises within our practice. Enlightenment is not a state of mind. Enlightenment is an activity that to me, everything that the values that we cherish are only revealed by their activity. And that includes faith. So you have to, if you're invested in that, then it seems to me that's where the Sangha's refuge comes in because it's the activity of Sangha life that reveals these relationships.

[63:20]

Right. And that's what Suzuki Roshi says in one of these commentaries. He says that Buddha and Dharma are manifest in the activity of Sangha. Yeah. Thank you. Yoni. Um, one of the first lectures I heard you give, you talked about, uh, practice. There were two, two things to it. You said practice is together action, I think. And you said something, I really liked this image of us all being dirty potatoes in a pot and being stirred. And, um, there's like a, kind of a roughness to that image. Um, to the potato image for the potato image. And, uh, when is it too rough? Uh, when is it too rough? Uh, and who's to say? Well, the potato might have something to say with it, say about it. I don't know. Um,

[64:20]

uh, it's too rough when, who knows, you know, if it gets too rough, then make mashed potatoes. I don't know. I don't want to extend that metaphor too far. Um, I think the other metaphor that we use is of stones in a tumbler, polishing each other by tumbling over each other. And I would say it's too rough when they get smashed. When people get chewed up, our, our, the object of our practice is not to grind people down. So together action, together action is a, uh, a translation. It's one way to express what Dogen talked about as the fourth

[65:29]

embracing dharma in, uh, Pali it's samanatata, uh, which you could translate as together action. You could translate it as cooperation, cooperation. You could translate it as, uh, in, in that is text for embracing dharmas as, uh, well, I'm blocking it right now. Uh, Identity action, identity action. Thank you. Uh, but that, that subscure to some people, uh, it means action in identity with, but samanatata, the root of it is I think the root of our word same is recognizing sameness. So we go back to dharma as equality. We go back to, you know,

[66:36]

so every potato in that pot is of equal value, is equally tasty when we prepare it. Uh, and we're just trying to get the, the mud off of it. So, but we're not trying to smash the potatoes. We're not trying to crack the rocks. And we're not trying to break down people into their component parts. Uh, we want to, we want us, we rub up against each other in sangha so that we can actually shine forth. Does that make sense? Well, we're getting near the end. Is there one more question or comment that anyone wants to make? Yeah. Preston was on. Could you say something about the relationship between taking refuge and,

[68:02]

um, uh, submission or resignation or surrendering? But those are three different words. Surrendering can be very positive. Surrendering your ego, surrendering your self-centeredness, uh, giving up, you know, the, the word Islam, I believe means surrender. You know, it's giving up your small self to something larger than yourself. So that has a kind of positive valence or can have a positive valence. If it's surrender or submission, uh, what was the third word you used? Um, resignation. Resignation. You know, if it's surrender or submission in the, in the sense of

[69:08]

yielding to someone who is more powerful than you, thereby yielding to their power, uh, that's really, that's troubling. And resignation in many ways, to me, it means giving up on yourself and also not a positive value. So I think the critical question that we all have to explore in our practice is what is the distinction between resignation and acceptance? That's a live question. So it's, that's a good one to explore. You know, am I just giving up on this or am I actually accepting what's happening? Because that's the course to go at the moment.

[70:15]

Yeah. Thank you. One more question from Susan and then she's still here. Yeah, I'm here. Um, it sounds like, you know, what's really important then is, um, and what Sojourner always encourages, you have to stand on your own two feet. That's right. So like when Preston said submission or, you know, I thought like, oh yeah, the important thing there is it's okay to surrender as long as you're standing on your own two feet. And, um, if there's hesitation there, then that can be, um, dangerous or the wrong direction. I remember when I first came to practice and I said to him, I'm not really sure if I belong here. I'm not really sure where I belong. And he said, yes, you know where you belong. I, he said, I think you know exactly where you belong.

[71:22]

Stop hesitating. And that was very encouraging. And I think like something about what you've been talking about all night, that relationship between teacher and student, it's very important to stand on one's own two feet. Right. And then to have that relationship with the teacher. Yes. Yes. I think that's exactly right. Um, and it's also okay to question yourself, you know, so that's the first tenant, uh, of Glassman's system is not knowing, not knowing means questioning yourself, but it doesn't mean doubting yourself. And it doesn't mean, I mean, I think that's different from, I mean, I'm kind of an expert on hesitation. So I think that's different from hesitation. It's very different than hesitation. It's just mean it, but even if you hesitate, you still have to stand on your own two feet. You

[72:29]

need to know where your feet are. And this is a point that Suzuki Roshi made over and over and Sojin made over and over, you know, extending from Suzuki Roshi, but also from his own exploration. And, uh, this is what we are all learning. And it's, you know, that instruction, I mean, the translation you gave of Blanche saying plunge or dive or more like jump off the hundred foot pole. That's all about finding the confidence not to hesitate. Right. Right. And that's very encouraging. Yeah. I think that that's, that's our way, you know, and it means coming forward to each other. It means coming forward to our teacher and the teacher coming forward to us. It's a, it's a, there's a mutuality there, uh, of two people standing on their feet.

[73:31]

Thank you.

[73:33]

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