from Gringold, Zen Center Abbas, that said, we're thinking about whether or not to, what to do with our controversial, the controversial subject of the swastika. given its connotations in Europe in the first half of the 20th century, used by Hitler and the Nazis as a symbol of Nazism. Because it runs through all of our, even though you don't usually see it, it runs through all Buddhist associations. So, I don't want to talk about that subject.

[01:07]

What I really want to do is just, I think, whether you accept it or reject it, you should understand what it really means. Aside from how the Nazis used it. The Nazis used it as a very powerful symbol. It was called, but they called it the Hocken Kraus, the Hooked Cross. They didn't necessarily refer to it as the Swastika, the Hocken Kraus. And Nazis in America called it the Hocken Kraus. In Buddhism, and Indian Buddhism especially, and Chinese Buddhism, called it the swastika. That's its old Indian name. And it's a symbol used by every country, every area of the world for more than 5,000 years, as you probably already know that.

[02:22]

But I have to say that. So it's a sacred symbol, but people don't understand necessarily its true meaning. So when I use the word swastika, we don't use it very much. It's almost a dead subject, except when you do use it, people react to it. as a Nazi symbol. There's a difference between the two, and it's not just rationale. The Hockencross is the hooked cross, which is balanced on one point, whereas the swastika is a stable square, actually. The Japanese

[03:25]

symbol for field is swastika. The field is a square with a line, down and across. Swastika is very simple, but its lines are very meaningful. These lines are full of potential meaning. Svastika is a horizontal line, a vertical line, and lines of activity. And if you just enclose the lines, we say, it's just a box. with vertical and horizontal lines.

[04:27]

A field of blessings. Interesting how it's been perverted, dragged through the mud, and hateful. This symbol of enlightenment is used as a symbol of hate. So do we kill the symbol of enlightenment because it's been dragged through the mud? I leave that to you. I'm not going to answer this question. Each one of us has to answer it ourselves. But I have to say, no matter whether you chop it into a million pieces, you can't kill it because it's the truth. So, when I received this email from the Sin Center Abbas, you know, I've been studying this for some time, and it's always been something on my mind.

[05:46]

When I received this communique, set up all kinds of fireworks with my mind. And I realized that it's totally connected to the eight levels of consciousness of Vasa Bandhu, which you all have been studying with Hosan Sensei. I don't want to impose anything to it, but I've studied both of them for some time. And I want to show you how the ultimate meaning of the eight levels of consciousness is expressed in the swastika. And also, it's related to the Tibetan wheel of existence, karmic existence.

[06:52]

So these are three wheels. The wheel of the eight levels of consciousness is also a wheel. Buddhism is all full of circles. Circles, within circles, within circles. This is how Buddhism is expressed and explained. As you know, the Tibetan wheel at the center is the axis, the axle. And the whole wheel revolves around greed, ill will, and delusion. The chicken, the snake, and the pig. That's what our life revolves around. The worldly life revolves around that. Even though we have a democracy, the rich are always free from it, right? greed, hate, and delusion.

[07:57]

But at the center, it revolves around greed, hate, and delusion. So that circle, our life depends, the way our life goes depends on which circle we are oriented to. The eight levels of consciousness which I think you begin to understand, involves the five senses which belong to the world of activity and closely associated with the Tibetan wheel because the senses pick up and communicate the world around us. The sixth level of consciousness differentiates between the various levels of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling.

[09:17]

So this is seeing, this is hearing. I hear this, and if you hear that, we see this, and we feel this, and smell this, and so forth. So that level of consciousness orients us and categorizes our sensory information, and this is called the doorways to... consciousness. We don't, the I is not conscious, even though we say, I consciousness? I consciousness is, it's consciousness is consciousness. The I is a vehicle for seeing, but the I doesn't see, but it's necessary for seeing. It's the mind that sees. We all know this. And then the sixth consciousness sends messages to our memory bank called the Alaya Vijnana consciousness.

[10:35]

So that process is going on. And the messenger of that information between those two levels of consciousness is called manas. the evil one. Or evil impulse. The Japanese actually call it evil. It's just mistaken, you know. Manas thinks it's the boss because it has all this information that it delivers back and forth. Someone who is at the center of information is very powerful. So it can be usurped. So I like to express the manas, the seventh level of consciousness, it's called the ego, or the false sense of being. And when the boss is out, manas is the

[11:45]

The messenger says, oh, the boss is out. And he sneaks into the boss's office, sits down in the boss's chair, puts his feet up on the boss's desk, opens the drawer, pulls out a cigar. Havana special. Now I'm the boss. But the problem is, he believes it. That's the problem we have. Our manas, our ego consciousness thinks that we're the boss. And we relate to the alaya, the seedbed of everything that's ever happened to us in memory. he believes that that's himself.

[12:49]

So it's called a false consciousness, really. And when he gives that up, it's called, when he realizes that Buddha is the boss, he lets go, puts himself, bows down to Buddha's, at Buddha's feet, and lays himself down there and says, do what you want with this corpse. That's why we say you have to die in order to live. What it means is you have to die to your ego in order to find true life. So that's a circle because manas is the center of the circle at this point. until he gives up, until she gives up. Let's go. And stops the suffering.

[13:51]

That's called stopping the suffering. And then, the other levels of consciousness are circles outside of that. So what replaces manas as the boss? It's called the revolution on the base. Pranavirti. Everything turns. The Vijnanas become the four wisdoms It's no longer called vijnana, it's called wisdom.

[14:56]

Four levels of wisdom. So the four levels of wisdom are the alaya becomes, the alaya consciousness becomes the great round mirror wisdom. It has no self, it's emptiness. and it becomes the basis, the true basis. I want to make a drawing. There. That's the great round mirror of wisdom. And as you can see, it has no self. It's called the no self, which is the true self.

[16:00]

And then, manas, which is the egocentricity, becomes the wisdom of equality. Everything is the same. You're no different than me. I'm no different than you. I'm no different than anything else. I am this. So, everything is equal. Suzuki Roshi, I remember saying, when everybody wears the same black robe, we all line up and we all look different. Because we are all the same, we all look different. We are the same and different.

[17:08]

Vertical. Horizontal and vertical. I want to make it nice. Vertical means differentiation, hierarchy. People don't like the word hierarchy because it has connotations of higher and lower. I'm at the top of the hierarchy and you're at the bottom. That's not the true meaning of hierarchy. True meaning of hierarchy is everything is in a different position, in a different place, and unique. Each one is unique. Each one of us is unique. So this is, you can call this vertical value, comparative value.

[18:18]

This equality means virtue. Virtue means each one is incomparable. You can't compare one to another. You can't compare the mouse to the elephant. Each one is totally equal. They're totally equal, and at the same time, they're totally different. That's the wisdom, the wisdom of totally equal and the wisdom of totally different, based on emptiness or wisdom. These are the three major wisdoms, right? And the fourth, Major wisdom is... Let's see.

[19:33]

Yes. That's the swastika. which expresses enlightenment. And you cannot refute it. It can't be refuted. You can try, you know, you can make up all kinds of things. But it's a natural symbol. Nobody made it up. It just falls into place. It doesn't belong to anybody or anything. It's not Buddhist. It's not, as a matter of fact, Jewish. synagogues in the old days sometimes back in many many many millennia had this symbol on the floor so it doesn't really belong to anybody it's just the way things are the way it is if you want enlightenment this is your basis for enlightenment zero And then all of the, these spokes here are the activity.

[20:40]

So this is, the spokes are the activity called the pre, the enlightened activity. So these spokes activate. the rest. And it's called the enlightened activity in the sensual world based on the three wisdoms. And it's the fourth wisdom. It's acting in a wise way. Wisdom here. in the prajna. The wisdom of the universe. Cosmic wisdom.

[21:46]

We're all cosmic beings. You know, where does the sky end? Well, the sky ends at the bottom of my feet. But we're always looking up there for the sky. Oh, the sky, the sky's way up there. No! I mean, yes. It's also at the bottom of our feet. We sometimes think, well, here's where this guy ends. When Dogen came back from China, he'd been in China for five years, something like that, four or five years. And when he came back, he said, what did they bring back with you? He said, all I know is that my eyes are horizontal and my nose is vertical. horizontal and vertical. And my life is based on just the circle of wisdom, the hole in the universe, or the hole in the curtain that blocks my view of the universe.

[22:57]

This is the hole in our curtain. through which we can view the universe in its true sense. This is called the path. The path. I think this is the most important symbol in Buddhism, or just as important as anything else. Let's put it that way. This is the most, or this is the least. It's the great symbol that is more than a symbol. Because we embody it. Look at this horizontal. And if I wanted to stand up, I would be vertical. And my seat is right here. It's sitting on. And when I get up, I hope that these spokes will carry me in the right way. So I'm doing Buddha's work instead of Hitler's work.

[24:04]

There's a book by a Japanese author, Buddhist author, Mr. Nagagaki. This is the Buddhist swastika. This is the Hockencross. You can see that there's quite a difference. It's just a matter of the way it's tilted. And these are symbols that we use in Buddhism, in Zen. The swastika faces two ways, not just one way. This swastika is the swastika of coming down the mountain. The swastika facing where the spokes are facing the other way means climbing up the mountain. Climbing up the mountain to get the golden ring on a merry-go-round. We live on a merry-go-round.

[25:22]

The merry-go-round is another ring. I mean, it's another circle. And when we're on the merry-go-round, all the horses and the giraffes are doing this, and you pick your animal. Some people sit in the seats and say, God, how come they want to sit in the seat and not sit on that animal? Anyway, that's just me. And so the merry-go-round goes around, and you... reach out when you get to a certain point to get the golden ring, but it turns out to be a brass ring. Very seldom do you get the golden ring. I remember somebody once said, stop the merry-go-round, let me off. I thought that was very funny, but now I see not so funny. Hopefully you get the golden ring on the merry-go-round.

[26:28]

And you're very happy. Anyway, just... The spokes facing the other way is going up the mountain, getting the golden ring. And then you come down the mountain, And this is the symbol for coming down the mountain. Coming down the mountain and with your bag of goodies and spreading it around to everybody. With blessed bestowing hands, as it says in the circular symbol of Hote, coming back down the mountain with his bag of stuff.

[27:33]

Oh, goodies. The goodies. He used to talk about the goodies. And don't make your own cookies. Don't make... So this one, the Hocken Klaus, that's Hitler's version of this. So I just want to give you the information. So that when you think about it, and you think about whether we should continue this or not, at least you hopefully understand the meaning. The meaning is enlightened activity. I mean, it's totally logical.

[28:38]

It's the most logical thing I can think of. So... I'm open to questions if you feel... I do want to ask a question. Now's the time. Thank you, Sojin Roshi. Just have a few comments about Q&A. If you could, there's two ways you can ask a question. You can either raise your hand by going to participants at the bottom of your screen and raising your virtual hand, and I'll keep track of it.

[29:41]

Or you can also enter a question in the chat box, and I'll send it along to Sojin. So if you do have a question, please unmute yourself before you ask and lower your hand. And we'd like to hear from as many voices as possible. So please limit yourself to one follow up question. Thank you. You're muted. Hozan has a question. OK. Yes. Thank you. I don't want to get into the discourse around the swastika, but something that you said early on about Manas, which is actually, to plug my class for next week, that's the subject of next week's class, Mondays.

[30:52]

But you cited a photograph. You cited an image of a young man with his feet up on the desk, leaning back and smoking a cigar. And by chance, that's a famous photograph of a guy named David Shapiro, who was a poet at Columbia. And it was taken in the president of Columbia's office shortly after we had occupied it. And I was literally standing right next to the photographer when it was taken. which is all interesting, but not exactly relevant. What's relevant in terms of what you were saying is that photograph, you were talking about Manas as defiled consciousness, right? That photograph ruined that person's life. He was one of the most brilliant poets and literature students and teachers in that had come along in years. And because of that photograph, he never got a good job.

[31:59]

Do poets get good jobs? He was not just a poet. He was a scholar. And he had won scholarships. And he should have been a professor of literature at a prominent university. Instead, he had sort of contract jobs at at local colleges for the rest of his life. And, you know, that one photograph, that action of Manas, if you will, undercut his life, the activity of his life. He should have become a Zen student. Maybe so. Anyway, that's all I had to say. Thank you. Looks like Joel has a question. Hi. I just have two thoughts and maybe you can have some response to them.

[33:06]

One is that in the West the off-kilter swastika has such a powerful connotation and in the West the the vertical swastika the stable one has for thousands of years has a very powerful connotation so I think it's kinda different for us and what really you have the vertical on horizontal on the circle that's not a problem and I had the idea that some visual artist might be able to formulate lines or images were the activity one there is That's the four spokes. Oh, right. Well, but different ones than the traditional ones so that there's not that association. Oh, I see. Yes. Well, all circles are that, basically.

[34:12]

Well, the circle, you know, Let's keep the basic thing as simple as possible. Yeah. So we don't lose the true meaning. The true meaning gets lost in complexity. That, of course, is true. I just put out my other idea, maybe you have a reaction to that, which is that the Leonardo image of the man in the circle is this image of the arms outstretched the trunk up and down and the legs at an angle and it's yeah there it is leonardo swastika i i think that i don't know there's some big shot vitruvian man or something like so it's like squaring the circle

[35:19]

Yes, this way in the circle, yes. It was a famous paradox or something that people said is impossible. Yeah, it's only a paradox if you don't understand it. Well, that's true. That's true. If it's not a paradox, it's not truth. Oh, well, that's true. I've found that. Lots of paradoxes out there. Lots of paradoxes out there. Well, thank you. Those were my two thoughts. And the simple truth is. I don't know. It looks like Peter has a question. And just a reminder to the group, feel free to submit questions in the chat box if you prefer. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Good morning. It's wonderful to see you. this morning. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing you. I'm seeing the moderator.

[36:20]

There you are. It's wonderful to see you. It's wonderful to have you in my living room on a Saturday morning. It's very different. It's kind of a treat, actually. I really appreciate your talk. I really appreciate you tackling the topic. What it left me with was the real question based on your explanation of the symbol is what is enlightened action moment in time where we live in this culture right now. And to me, and this is just me, the only answer to that question is for the Buddhist community to stop using that symbol. We know what it means. We know what it means. It's just a symbol. You don't have to be attached to it. The symbol now in this moment in time, makes a lot of other people feel excluded because of its recent association.

[37:22]

And that may not change for a long time. So just if I think from a place of compassion, what would be the compassionate thing to do? To me, it seems like it would be to accept that for whatever reason, right now in this moment in time, which is where Buddhism lives, this symbol hurts people. Yes. We don't need it. We can come up with some other symbol. We can find some other way to express our teaching. Yes, there are many ways to express it. That's true. This is one way. But it's more than just verbal. It's more than just a symbol. It's the heart of what we are. So I agree, though, with you, we should not be attached to it. I agree with that. Let's not be attached to it. That's why I'm not saying anything about it. I'm just saying, this is what it means. For me, this is what it means. We get a lot of what it means-ness from literature, but not much.

[38:27]

It says, oh, it's well-being. That's what the commentators say. Oh, it means well-being. It means happiness, you know, and stuff. Well, yes, of course, but it doesn't go into what... the true meaning of the vertical and the horizontal and the circular wisdoms are. And how it relates to everything in Buddhism. And does Buddhism have other symbols that convey exactly the same thing? Yeah. All Buddhism does. I mean, symbolically. Visually, symbolically. Are there other symbols? Symbols that also convey. Yes. The problem is they convey what's wrong with things. Mostly Buddhism conveys what the problems are. But it's not always easy to get what the solution is.

[39:31]

Although the Eightfold Path is called the solution, right? And so... You know, that's why people use the Eightfold Path and so forth. But, you know, because of the connotations of the Nazi use, also, you know, all over the world, why should the people all over the rest of the world be able to use it without feeling guilty? They don't. When I was in Bhutan, in the monastery, big monastery there, The whole place was paintings, right? And the murals on the walls. And all the trim was swastikas all connected as decoration. And they didn't know what was going on, actually, in Europe, believe it or not. A lot of the airplanes were flying over the Himalayas.

[40:38]

But they really didn't have any idea what was going on in the World War. It's hard to believe, but it's, you know, communication up there, there was no communication up there. So, you know, it depends on what your relationship to it is. But it's okay, you can not, you know get rid of it i don't care except that you can't get rid of the truth the truth is common maybe the challenge is to separate the symbol from the truth in this moment what's the truth in this moment how to express that yes that's right and when you express the truth in that in this moment it's always the symbol is always there you know In all of our enlightened action, that symbol is prominent.

[41:43]

You don't have to bring it up. Right. Toss it away, you know. Drop it out of the airplane, into the ocean. Well, thank you so much for raising the question. Thank you for visiting me this morning. And I like you better when you look like Santa Claus. But it's still okay. Excuse me, Sojen. We have nine people with their hands raised and only about five more minutes. Each one gets a half a minute. Or if you want to, you could reconvene at 1130 to pick up on people who didn't have a chance. I'll leave that up to you. Yeah, we can extend it. I don't mind that. You know, here I am sitting in my lotus position. I can actually sit in full lotus again. believe it or not. We could take a break and reconvene at 11.30. No, no. I don't want to take breaks. No.

[42:46]

Okay, good. Either we continue or we don't. And people can have personal doka-san with me if they like. Not now, but, you know, give me a call. So it looks like our next... person with a question is Lois. If you're still here, Lois, please unmute yourself. All right. Hello. Thank you. Hi, Sojin. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. I was very, at the beginning of your talk, I said, well, I wouldn't vote for keeping the swastika at the end of the talk, I thought. If I can't handle that swastika with the truth, then I haven't moved anywhere. So I felt very helped by the talk. I think it's still a challenge for me.

[43:48]

But it feels like everything, the illusions and the attachment and the fear that gets connected to that symbol, for me personally, has to go. And I don't mind it being dropped into the ocean either, but I don't care. I just want to be able to watch it and look at it and be able to separate from it because it just feels like more illusion and more fright. So thank you very much. I just want not to care about that. So I appreciate your wisdom. Thank you. I appreciate yours, too. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I think he's blocked.

[44:53]

Tom, you're muted. Okay. tell me you're muted okay and can you hear me yeah yeah you're next yeah i have a question uh... through uh... piggyback on what uh... peter was talking about i think we also need to acknowledge that this symbol is being used today especially in this country in a hateful way not only by our citizens but also by our president who called Nazis using these symbols as good and fine people and so to have us to have a discussion about it without because we live we're American Buddhists we live in America that is still I think

[46:05]

where this question is still happening and is still hateful. And so, I don't know, I just, I feel weird, you know, even talking about it just because we're under existential threats right now that, um, um, I was surprised that the abbess of Berkeley's answer would bring it up considering all the existential threats that we're under now. And, um, I would drop it into the ocean and maybe in another generation have a, you know, think about it. But it's been so covered with evil that it's difficult to even consider it. Yes. Well, I think we have to give it a rest. I agree. It's like someone kidnapped your child, who is the apple of your eye, and kept your child for 12 years, 15 years, 20 years, and your child grows up with the kidnappers.

[47:21]

And then when you face your child, you face the kidnappers. Would you kill your child, or would you want to redeem your child? That's the choice we have, I think. So I don't want to discuss it. As I said, I just want to show us what the meaning is. That's all. So you understand the meaning, not the connotations. Thank you. It looks like Ben is the next person. Sojin Roshi, thank you for your talk. I had a question more on the symbolism that you're sharing with us and the two versions of the Buddhist symbol, the one climbing the mountain and the one descending the mountain. Is there a reason why the ends point one way for climbing the mountain and for descending?

[48:29]

Maybe there is no reason, but I was curious if there was any meaning to that image. You know, if it was only pointed one way, that's what people say is the opposite of the Nazi harket grouse. But I think that, I don't know why he points, you know, One points one way and the other points the other way, that's all. It could be the opposite, I suppose. It's just you have to make some decision which way is he going to point. Maybe it's because they balance each other. Yeah, of course, they balance each other. Yes. Thank you, Sojin. Okay. Okay, it looks like Ross now has the next question.

[49:29]

Thank you. Thank you very much for an edifying talk and helping us understand the true meaning of the swastika or the Hocken Cross. And the Hocken Cross. And the Hocken Cross. Thank you. In my hometown of Virginia, they finally removed the slave block. And in Mississippi, they finally took down the state flag with the Confederate symbol in it. symbols represent a time in our history that is was abhorrent and now is past us physically the memory remains and that's our practice is to try to be open and amend my only feeling about the swastika is that it's not displayed so prominently in our practice.

[50:41]

The only time I've seen it is actually on the little bag that the endowment transmission that is used to hold the documents. So it's a very private thing, and it's bestowed to the people receiving transmission who have an understanding of that. We hope they have an understanding, yes. Yeah, so in a sense it's kind of like our little secret, if you will. It's a private thing and we all have our secrets. And I appreciate your, again, your talk and exposing our vulnerabilities and our secrets and the things that we hold dear and maybe a little reticent to let go of. But it's a very different thing than that slave block and the Mississippi flag. You know, I think it was a mistake to remove the slave block. Terrible mistake. It looks like there was never any, I mean, if you pass that place and pretty soon people will, you know, it's like the black hole of Calcutta.

[51:50]

When we were in Calcutta, you weren't there. We wanted them to take us to the black hole of Calcutta. It's just an intersection. You know, this is where the black hole, I think, was, you know. But I think that the slave blocks really represent something, and people should see that and not ignore it. I think that's the greatest lesson, the more great lesson in the statues. This is where we actually sold slaves. I agree with you. I saw when I was home last, there were some African-American tourists And the little boy of the family stood up on the block, and the father took the picture. It was kind of like things are turned upside down. Anyway, the block is not stored in some warehouse. It's going to be in a museum with a description for people to see. And there's a debate whether in a public place or a museum, the virtue of either.

[52:53]

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the subject. Again, thank you for presenting us with your crowd. But I was thinking about all the statues that were and whether all of them should be removed and all that. I think it's a reaction and has two sides. Yes. And it just depends on which. I think, you know, we always looked at Robert E. Lee as a gentleman. You know, everybody has two sides, right? But he was the leader of the Civil War. So, but it's not that that's what he wanted to do. He felt an obligation to do that and he could not do that. And to me what that represents, that statue represents is an honorable person who was an enemy and how we, you know, in time we make amends with our enemies.

[53:57]

And if we eliminate the memory of our enemies, you know, they felt a certain righteousness, as well as we felt a certain righteousness, even though we say they're wrong, we're right, and so forth. We were an honorable enemy. You know, the Japanese warriors in the second world war and the american warriors in the second world war get together old as they are and uh somehow they reconcile you can't reconcile if you will eliminate the other side that has the civil war has to have some reconciliation it hasn't happened yet it's still the the south is still there i mean it's Losing is simple and so forth. You know, that's good.

[55:00]

On the other hand, we need something that allows us to reconcile. And if we cut off all the terrible things, you know, it's okay if we have no memory. Maybe that's okay. You know, we just start from zero. But we're starting from zero, unfortunately. There's nothing to work with if the memories are... There's nothing to work with. That's right. It's like it didn't happen. Yeah. Like a divorce. If you never see the person that you're separated from, it's hard to reconcile. So how do we keep it present? Thank you so much. Yes, there has to be. The Civil War is not reconciled yet at all. Anyway, that's another conversation that I didn't want to get into.

[56:01]

I apologize. I didn't think of that. Believe me, I did think of that. And I do think of it. Yeah. Excuse me, Sojen, we have a question from Germany. Joen, please, if you could unmute yourself, please do so. Yeah, good morning. Morning. Oh, hi. No. The Hakenkreuz, of course, has been, you know, the symbol has been stained forever and has left a deep imprint even on generations like mine who were obviously not participating in that war. However, you know, looking at it from the point of our practice, which seems to be always on the gentle balance between seeing everything as a symbol and then tending towards hopefully wise action out of seeing the symbols you know you could also see this horrifying symbol as what karma can do because the swastika alone you know it's a beautiful and also

[57:23]

so clear and so condensed everything however as we are able to spoil any anything you know like on the book cover i think it's good you know and probably even though you know myself german latest history has been uh... dominated by our uh... were our force and we had just had to cope with okay what happened there and how are we going to live after so it's good if the karma is right there yeah that's that's all thank you well thank you it's great to see you yes yeah I think you know the later generations will make amends to each other for the whatever.

[58:23]

We love you, folks. Thank you. It looks like Susan is next. I'm not sure if that's Kika, Susan, or another Susan, but please unmute yourself and ask your question. Can you hear me? you know when I came to practice at Berkley Zen Center you used to go around with the stick and you trained some of your senior most students to go around with the stick and you use the stick a lot mm-hmm quickly and then we went for a long time and my impression is that it had been used historically for a long time and then we went through a period of transition I would say where there was a lot of discussion about the use of the stick and there were people who the sound of the stick in my understanding

[59:45]

It triggered trauma or memories of abuse in their homes or hitting in their homes. I'm paraphrasing what I remember. We had a lot of meetings where people voiced concern about the use of the stick. And even though it was always by invitation, you never hit anybody who didn't ask for the stick. those sounds were somehow difficult for people some people and so we dropped the use of the stick actually we listened to those people the people who were traumatized right and I remember your whole talk reminds me of that time period and I remember that I thought it was a great mistake But I don't feel that way anymore.

[60:46]

I feel we listened to the people who were traumatized, and we have given the stick a rest. You know, we did compromise. We said that I could carry the stick during sashim, or if I felt like it at some point. But, you know, we just kind of, it kind of, It's really resting, having a good snooze. You know, for a long time, and I still feel about myself that I'm grateful that I received the kind of training I did at that time, that included the stick. But now, you know, who says what a memory, I have this memory of it, but that's all it is, is a memory. And I probably glorify the memory in some way. But I don't feel for a long time I felt it was a mistake.

[61:49]

And I even would say to you, why don't you use the stick? Or why don't you put it away so it's not visible anymore? And you would just laugh at me. And now I don't care anymore. And I think that's a good place to be in. Yes. Yeah, that's a good place to be in. I don't know if you can hear me. I can hear you. Okay. You know, at the time we were more oriented toward Japanese style. Right. And I remember Suzuki Roshi using the stick all the time. Everybody loved it, you know. Please wake me up. But the stick was always suffused with love. He always administered the stick with love, and everybody loved it.

[62:51]

It communicated, actually, his love for us, his concern and wanting to wake us up. And so we continued that for a long time until finally, you know, There was not a lot of backing for it, but we did learn something from that. All the stuff that we kind of dropped from the Japanese attitudes were very valuable in one way or another. Well, I remember at the time, can you hear me? Yeah, yeah. I remember at the time wanting to say that to people who experience that trauma from hearing it but that's not its meaning that's not what it means but you know to me now i feel it's important to just listen to those people yes and to me it relates to what we're going through in the social justice movement today

[64:03]

especially as white people, we can't say to people of color, but we didn't mean this, or this doesn't mean this. We need to listen to people. We need to listen to the trauma and to be guided by the pain that people feel. So thank you for, this is a really thought-provoking talk, and thank you so much. Thank you for your wisdom. Heiko John Lake is next. Thank you, Sojin Roshi, for a thought-provoking talk and interesting discussion. I have a question about how do we let go of old symbols and make changes so that we can move forward? when we talk about the horizontal we have people but when we talk about the vertical we have men and women we have he and she we have him and her we have father and mother and even those words are troublesome to people today who identify as neither he nor she and so forth not that we had resolved how to call people here now but what is the

[65:22]

switch, or how do we find in ourselves that ability to let go of a symbol and retain the meaning, but also enlarge the meaning in the way that the he-she question is being addressed today? Well, I think enlarging the meaning is not substituting one thing for another. Those symbols are of the swastika you can rearrange them anyway you want but the truth is the truth and that can't be you can't stamp it out you can cut it into a million pieces but it all rises up as one so you can't kill the truth but you can include I always used to talk about when we come to Zazen, there's no women or men.

[66:30]

They're just us. Just people. That's horizontal. Horizontal includes. There are no men or women. There's no right and wrong. There's no good and bad. Just things as it is. So they is included in horizontal. They is also included in vertical. You just include things that are there. You know, the mirror includes everything. That's the basis, the whole basis. Whatever comes, the mirror sees it clearly without bias. There's no bias in the truth. So, Sergeant Roshi, when we're discomforted by these kind of symbols, how do we approach our discomfort so that we can enlarge our mind or our thinking?

[67:32]

Yeah, enlarge your mind first, and then there's no discomfort. Thank you, Sergeant Roshi. You're welcome. Okay, it looks like Jeff Taylor is next. So, Jim, thank you so much for a wonderful talk. I had forgotten that the circle in the middle was the round mirror and represented that. I remembered the vertical and the horizontal, but the combination of the two calls the ineffable for me, which is sort of where I like things. My question has changed ten times as I've listened to everybody talk, and I think that's the nice news. And the thing I was going to share... was that my own experience of this is that as a child, the war was very close in our family. We had family friends who had survived the camps. My father fought in World War II, and so the swastika held all of that, the conflict and the death and all of the things that we typically associate with it.

[68:42]

The first time I saw the downhill spokes was... I think, in relation to a Navajo symbol. And the difference was so stark for me immediately, one symbol didn't call the other for me. And so it led to an inquiry, and here we sit today. And my history is becoming a mystery to me as the years advance. The thing that's interesting to me is I've listened to people speak, and I particularly like the analogy of the slave auction block, is the idea of context in story. that in the auction blocks case, what sat there in the town square basically said Negroes were sold here. That's not the story and that's not the proper context. And so in letting that survive, great harm was being committed in people who had been deeply traumatized and families who continued to be traumatized were not honored and were in fact deeply ignored in the furtherance of something that told a different story that was not true.

[69:49]

In thinking about how to reclaim these symbols, my next question is, why is that important? What's to reclaim? You speak eloquently about the truth, Sojin, and I'm quite captured by the way you speak about it. I'm also captured by the idea of how do we listen to victims and how do we act out our compassion in supporting those who have been harmed. And the truth for everybody lies somewhere in the midst of that. And it's not my job to sway people one way or the other. I have my own truth in this, and I land on both sides of this question. And like so much in Zen, how do I understand the non-duality of those two poles? How do I understand that neither and both and both together is somewhere guiding me to something that's different? And I don't think I've said any of that well, but it's instructive to get to listen.

[70:53]

I want to thank you all for the education I've received today. Thank you. Well, thank you. I appreciate your eloquence. And the connotations are one thing. I simply wanted to explain the meaning, the true meaning, so that we would have something when there's ever a controversy, we would know what we're talking about. Thank you, Sojin. You're welcome. It looks like we have time for one more question from Deb Self. Good morning. Thank you, Sojin. You're welcome. I'm glad to know more about the Buddhist religion. meaning of the original symbol, so I thank you for that part of the talk.

[71:53]

I know that the subject is not whether we use it, how we use it, but that's what I want to comment on anyway. Being from the south, from Huntsville, where there's a big daily fight on the courthouse steps over the Confederate memorial there, and where the police have used tear gas and rubber bullets and hurt a lot of people who were there peacefully lecturing about the history and rallying peacefully. It's a super hot topic for me. And I think that the symbols like the, I'm going to call it a swastika because in common parlance, that's what people refer to it as, but also the news. These are things that I think more than symbolizing an ideological perspective, they're threats. And they're super real threats right now against African Americans, against trans people.

[73:01]

And I feel like I have to keep standing up to say that those symbols are not... it's not okay to use those symbols in any context because they're meant as real threats of violence. Trapping a man against a tree and threatening him when the noose last week happened. There's a resurgence that we have to step in front of, like in front of a bulldozer that's about to plow a forest. So I recognize I've got my own egocentricity and history and small mind also monkeying around with these questions um but i also want to be able to use my big mind to um offer um like the madis sutra um that kind of response with a thousand eyes yeah thank you yes well i want to thank everybody for their good questions and uh i mean this

[74:09]

brings up an awful lot of stuff. So, but it's good to bring it up. You know, we don't talk about it. It's under the cover. It's a kind of maybe, I don't know if it's an elephant in the middle of the room, but it's maybe a kangaroo or something. So, but I simply want to, you know, My understanding, I don't want my understanding to be biased by emotional resurgence. I understand very well the problem that this symbol brings up. But for me, I want to protect protected from more defilement.

[75:17]

I don't want it to be any more defiled and I want to protect that and not let it get lost in the subterfuge of something that's been stolen and misused So, and I understand everybody's emotion, and myself, my own emotion, of course. So, it's okay to throw it away, I don't care, because you can't get rid of it. No matter, chop it into a million pieces, and it, you know. It's just like, well, anyway, that's enough. Thank you.

[76:16]

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