So this morning, I will continue with Dogen Tenzo Kyokun. I will not be able to finish, of course, because it's too long, but we'll just keep going. So, now Dogen gives us his story about meeting two Tenzos in China who gave him his direction for his life's practice. So he begins by saying, when I was in China, and then later he tells how he got there. He says, when I was at Mt. Tiantang, Mt. Tiantang, of course, was where Ruijin, his teacher, final teacher, was the abbot.

[01:03]

And when I was at Mount Tianpeng, a monk called Lu from Qingyuan, Qingyuan Fu, was serving as the tenzo there. One day after the noon meal, I was walking to another building within the complex when I noticed Lu drying mushrooms in the sun in front of the butsudan, butsudan is the butthole. He carried a bamboo stick but had no hat on his head. The sun's rays beat down so harshly that the tiles along the walk burned one's feet. Lou worked hard and was covered with sweat. I could not help but feel the work was too much of a strain for him. His back was a bow-drawn taut, and his long eyebrows were crane white. I was out there in the sun, hot sun working. In the courtyard or in the hallways, outside hallways, they're drying rice or drying mushrooms or something.

[02:26]

It's just all out there on the deck. It adds a nice touch to the monastery, a nasty feeling. I approached him and asked his age. He replied that he was 68 years old. Then I went on to ask him why he never used any of his work. He didn't know why he never used any, but why he wasn't using any assistance. He answered, other people are not needed. You're right, I said. I can see that your work is the activity of the Buddhadharma, but why are you working so hard in the scorching sun? He replied, if I don't do it now, when else can I do it? There was nothing else for me to say. As I walked on along that passageway, I began to sense inwardly the true significance of the role of the Tenzo.

[03:26]

He got a glimpse of the attitude of the Tenzo, actually. What is the basic attitude? So, Pilgrim is beginning to see that significance of the daily activity of practice. There's a very nice quote I have from Suzuki Roshi which sums it all up. He says, in the evanescence of life we find the joy of eternal life. In our ordinary daily activity, we find the joy of eternal life. That's called enlightenment. So then he tells us about his story. He says, I arrived in China in April 1223, but being unable to disembark immediately, I stayed in a

[04:34]

before passengers were able to get off. Ningbo was where Dogen landed, and it's a port where foreigners from Japan in those days, in the 13th century, landed when they went to China. And in Ningbo, inland a little bit, is Mount Jin. And Mount Jin was the first monastery where Dogen went. And when we landed in Ningbo, we went to Mount Qing. We went to China in 9-11, two weeks after 9-11. We had planned this trip to go to China as a kind of Zendo trip. And then 9-11 happened. And we had to decide, should we go to China or not? You know, because nobody knew what was going to happen next. I said, I want to go to China.

[05:43]

Something's going to happen somewhere. And here we are. So we went to China. There was one shuttle that was working. I don't know if you remember all that. So, and eventually we landed in Nanjing. I was at Ningbo and went to Nanjing. And they had the communists that destroyed it. But then it got built up again, looking exactly like it did before it was destroyed. Amazing. That's where we had our best meal for five months. A couple nice ladies. I don't know if you remember that. I was thinking about the abbot who cleared the tables and set the table for us.

[06:46]

I'm not sure if it was at that temple or one of the other places. But it was a great experience, wherever I was. Anyway, I arrived in China. Being unable to disembark immediately, I stayed on board the ship in the port of Ningbo. One day in May, while I was talking with the captain, an old monk, about 60 years of age, came directly to the ship to buy mushrooms from the Japanese merchants on board. I invited him for tea and asked him where he was from. He added that he said that he was the Tenzo at the monastery of Ayuwong, and added, I'm originally from Xishu, although I left there over 40 years ago. I'm 61 this year and have practiced in several Zen monasteries in this country. Last year, while living in Guiyun, I visited the monastery of Mount Aiyuan, although I spent my time there totally confused as to what I was doing.

[07:55]

And the commentary is that I was totally confused as to what I was doing as a very Chinese. Modesty is very important for Chinese people. You always, you know, say something like, oh, you know, I wasn't very good at that, I couldn't do that very well. The unique company in Chinatown is a little store where the man sells calligraphy equipment. And so I once in a while go there to buy stuff. And he asked me, is your calligraphy good? And I said, no, not very good. He said, oh, I'm glad you said that. Most Americans say, oh yeah.

[08:57]

So then after the summer practice period last year, I was appointed Tenzo. Tomorrow is the May 5th, which is a spring celebration. It's a big event. Tomorrow is the May 5th, but I have nothing special to offer the monks. So I wanted to prepare a noodle soup, but as I did not have any mushrooms to put in it, I came here to buy some. Ayuwong Monastery, we also visited Ayuwong, is 14 miles from Rujing's place. Rujing was Togu's teacher. And when you take the Basque doesn't seem very far, but if you had to walk over the mountains to get there, it's a long way. So, Aiyuan is quite a wonderful place.

[10:08]

It's where Xuanzang's pagoda is. Very big pagoda. The oldest pagoda in China, I think. I asked, when did you leave Haiwan? And he replied, after lunch. Is it very far from here? Oh, about 14 miles. Well, when will you go back to the temple? I'm planning to return as soon as I've bought the mushrooms. You can't imagine how fortunate I feel that we are able to meet unexpectedly like this. If it's possible, I wish you would stay a while longer and allow me to offer you something more. I'm sorry, but that's not possible just now. If I am not there tomorrow to prepare the meal, it will not be made well. But surely there must be others in a place as large as Iowa who are capable of preparing the meals. They will not be that inconvenienced if you're not there, Millie. You don't have to show up, do you?

[11:12]

So, how can I entrust all that work to others? Moreover, when I left the temple, I did not have permission to stay overnight. And Tolkien says, but why, when you are so old, not very old, do you want to do the hard work of that tenzo? Why do you not spend your time practicing zazen or working on the He burst out laughing and remarked, my good friend from abroad, you do not yet understand what practice is all about, nor do you know the meaning of characters. Meaning of characters? Characters meaning, of course we know what Chinese characters are, but it also means things. Characters refers to things. So, darn us actually.

[12:32]

So this is kind of levels of understanding of what it means by characters. So when I heard this old monk's words, I was taken aback and felt greatly ashamed. So I asked him, what are characters and what is practice? He replied, if you do not deceive yourself about this problem, you will be a person of the way." At the time, I was unable to grasp the meaning of his words. If you do not understand, please come to Mount Ayuwang sometime, and we can talk about the nature of characters more fully. With that, he rose quickly and said, it's getting late, and the sun is about to set, and I'm afraid I can't stay any longer. And then he left for Mount Ayuwang. So, in July of the same year, I stayed on Tian Tong.

[13:58]

One day, the Tenzin from Ai Wang came back to see me. And he said, As the summer practice period has ended, I shall be retiring as Tenzo and I plan to return home. I heard that you were here and wanted very much to talk with you and see how you were doing. I was indeed happy to see him and received him cordially. We talked about various things and finally came to the matter he had touched on aboard the ship concerning the practice and study of characters. He said, a person who studies and one intending to practice the way must understand what practice is. And then there's this mondo that they have. I asked him once again, what are characters? One, two, three, four, five. Here's five. What is practice? There's nothing in the world that is hidden.

[15:00]

Although we talked about many other things, I will not mention than here. Whatever little bit I've learned about characters in practice is largely due to the Tenzo. When I met again with my teacher, Myozen, who later died in China, and told him of my meeting with the Tenzo from Mount Aiwang, he was extremely happy to hear about it. Later on, I came across Agata of Zuidu, that cannot be grasped. As night advances, a bright moon illuminates the whole ocean. The dragon's jewels are found in every wave. Looking for the moon, it is here, in this wave, in the next. So I just want to talk a little bit about Dogen.

[16:11]

When Dogen, as you all know, when Dogen went to China, before he went to China, he was teaching, he was not ye as a young man, pretty young actually, and disenchanted with the Tendai teaching, and so he wanted to find a Zen master. old man at that time. And then Esai's disciple was Miaozhen. And Esai asked Miaozhen to go to be Dogen's mentor. And together they went to China. Because Dogen had this question, if everyone has a Buddha picture, why do you have to do anything? If I have the porkchop on my plate, well, say porkchop.

[17:21]

Vegetarians. If I have the rice gruel in my bowl, why do I have to do anything? No, you do have to eat it. If you have the rice gruel in your bowl, you have to eat it before it becomes... otherwise it's just something we call rice gruel sitting there in the bowl. Until you eat it. Until you make the effort to pick up a spoon and eat it. It's not really rice gruel. It's just an idea of rice gruel. Your car's sitting up there, maybe. But it's not really an automobile until you complete automobile, until you get in, turn the key, and drive off. So, we dove in. It's me moving.

[18:44]

It's your mind moving. Although the thing is there, it's not really a microphone until I speak into it. So, then when Dogen, of course, met his teacher and met the tens of us, you realize that realization or enlightenment doesn't arise except through practice. You have to do something. You have to turn the wheel. Otherwise it's just an idea. So Miaozhen and Dogen went to China together, and this is where Dogen had his realizations.

[19:50]

And then Miaozhen died in China. So when I met again with my teacher Miaozhen, who later died in China, and told him of my meeting with Utenzo from that Aoyuan, he was extremely happy to hear about it. And then I told you the poem. A person who studies characters must know just what characters are, and one intending to practice the way must understand what practice is. So I asked him once again, what are characters? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. What is practice? 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. All activities are practice. Nothing is fixed. What are characters? Nothing is fixed. We must find our way in each moment, given what's in front of us.

[20:55]

world that is hidden. It manifests through all things. So the important word here is it. It is the indescribable essence of our life. which is transmitted through everything we meet. So this is how Dongen realized that everything that we meet is Buddha-nature. Everything that we meet should be respected. Because although a thing is a thing, a thing is also which is, I want to say, sacred.

[22:27]

You may think, well, this is not sacred, but everything actually is, because all aspects of life have the same essence. So whatever we need, If you have an enlightened attitude, then you're respectful for everything you meet, because you realize that everything is of the same nature. Sacred, we say sacrifice. Sacrifice has been something like sacred face. It means facing what is sacred. Sacrifice usually means giving up something, or we sacrifice this for that.

[23:30]

In a sense that's true. We let go of our ego-face to take on Buddha's sacred face. So we sacrifice our self-centeredness or we let go of our self-centeredness in order to face Buddha's face or reveal Buddha's face. I just made that up. So we say all dharmas 3, 4, 5 are dharmas. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are dharmas. All dharmas are marked with emptiness. The true mark of all dharmas is emptiness. When we study the Heart Sutra, it says all dharmas are marked with emptiness as well as all skandhas.

[24:34]

Marked with means the essential nature. sacred, which means when we let go of self-centeredness, then everything becomes our self, when we realize the true self of each thing and our self as well. What he's learning from the tensos is that through your activity, realization is there. And so this is Döger's mantra, so to speak, practice realization. Not just realization. Realization doesn't manifest without practice. and realization supports practice.

[25:45]

Practice reveals realization and realization supports practice. So it's one thing, not two things. That's why Duncan said continuous practice. really feel you have a practice attitude, then good or bad, right or wrong, stupid or intelligent, it's all practice. It's all within the realm of practice. And with all of our activities within the realm of practice, it's different than when you don't have any practice. I don't want to tell you how different it is, because everyone's experience is different. but you feel that you have a way to deal with things and you're not just abandoned in the universe.

[26:58]

So, this is a great poem. cannot be grasped. You can't grasp it. You can only be it. You can be it, but you can't see it. If you try to see your eyes, you can only see a mirror image of your eyes, but the eyes can't see themselves. So the way we view ourselves, the way we see ourselves, is when we view the world. The world is us up, and the world responds to us according to our actions. So the truth you search for cannot be grasped. As night advances, the bright moon, bright moon is like enlightenment, I wonder what to tell you.

[28:27]

The dragon's jewels are found in every wave. When the moon reflects on the wave, the moon on the wave, the light of the sun or the moon on the wave is called glee. Maybe something like Glee Club. We used to have that when I was a kid. The Glee Club. Glee is Irish. It means the dancing of the light of the water. So, looking for the moon. And here it is in this way, and there it is in that way. So Duggan, I think, used this poem, in a way, for his Moon in the Dew Drop.

[29:28]

He's fancy called Moon in the Dew Drop. The moon is reflected in every drop of water on the lawn. So it dawned on me that what the Tenzo I had met the previous year had said coincided perfectly with what Zui Du was pointing out through his gata. I realized more than ever that the Tenzo was a man firmly living out the Buddhadharma. I used to see the characters 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Now I also see 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. Further, students must be side. Practicing with intense effort, using all your ingenuity, you'll be able to grasp genuine Zen that goes beyond the surface of characters, goes beyond the surface of things, to be able to see the essence through the function, to be able to see the essence through every dharma.

[30:41]

And this is why the gateless gate, the Mumon Kama, There isn't a special gate. Every dharma is a gate to the essence. We should be able to experience our essential nature through every dharma, through every activity that we engage in. And when we engage in our activity, fully functioning, wholeheartedly, then Dharma glows. It's very simple. That's why our activity is so important. Not just Siddhi Dzogchen. Dzogchen is one side, and daily activity is the other side. And they're both equal. When you can go back and forth between the Zen Do and the daily activity without any discrimination, then that's called pretty good practice.

[31:47]

Is there a Japanese character for that? Yeah, it's called enlightenment. So practicing with intense effort, using all your ingenuity, you will be able to grasp genuine Zen that goes beyond the surface of characters. To do otherwise will only result in being led about by various tainted Zen that will leave you incapable of preparing meals skillfully for the community. There are six types of Zen which are not Shikantaza. Here they are.

[33:01]

Here's a quote. The depth of one's zazen becomes determined by the attitude with which one sits. That's from Ichiyama Roshi. Six types of zen, which are not shikantaza, One is called the Zen of Hell. They have a name for that, Chikyoka Zen. Those who are practicing for the sake of position, or are forced into it by family pressures, or political pressures. Here we don't have political pressures, but we do have family pressures. Like, I sit Zazen, but My wife doesn't, or my husband doesn't, or my friend. And I want them to do that, so this person comes just because they want, because their friend wants them to. And then they can't stand it.

[34:04]

You know, terrible. They have a terrible experience. You have to have affinity for practice. You can't do it because your friend is your friend, you know. You'll keep your friend, maybe, if you don't ask them. But actually what happens often, sometimes, is that the person that's dragged to Zazen becomes the one that stays. That does happen, yes. That's number one. Number two is called Gakki Zen, the hungry ghost Zen. Lusting after enlightenment, looking for a prize so they can be powerful and show off or be ordained. Their practice is in the realm of desire, not we seeking mind. Restless or impatient, greedy, materialistic Zen.

[35:09]

So, seeking something, or wanting something, And the third one is Chikusha Zen, called the domestic animal. Looking for a comfortable place to spend their time. This is why we don't proselytize. I feel very funny about having the sign outside, actually. Because I don't want to invite a lot of people coming up off the street thinking that they're going to get something here. And then we have to go through this whole thing of disappointing them. So you think it would be better if they can't find the place? We have to make a compromise. The domestic animal, looking for a comfortable place to spend their time.

[36:24]

They like to practice for all the peripheral reasons. The food. And they do just enough to be able to hang out. So then there's the competitive Zen. Macho Zen. Competing to gain Satori. This is not so much Soto Zen, but maybe Rinzai. They compete to gain positions. Compete to gain recognition. Vying for dominance. Breaking the Kiyosaka to prove yourself. soft and thick, and they might have been carried anywhere.

[37:33]

Of course, they're young kids, you know, so they love swinging the stick and getting the stick. But we used to use the stick It was a kind of competition to see who could sit the longest. Like, don't sleep more than an hour in the night time and stuff like that. I always advocate for getting good night's sleep when you practice. You should. Don't stay up all night thinking that you should be sitting around the clock.

[38:37]

That's OK, but I don't like it. Then there's Tendrel Zen, which is dilettante Zen, hobby Zen, setting up your own practice in seclusion, sitting around talking about Zen and drinking tea, and then feeling the need, no need to practice with others. They never find the right teacher, you know, I've been around, I can never find the right teacher. They don't like to submit to any authority. They sit zazen a few times, and then go off to impress people with their superior knowledge. So I'm going to various teachers seeking acknowledgement. So those are the six. They can be discussed, but I don't want to discuss them. So what's genuine Zen? Just to practice for the sake of practice.

[39:39]

It's not for you, it's not for me. It's just practice for the sake of practice, without wanting to gain anything. Just doing. No gain, nothing to gain. Have you put your whole body and mind the ocean and start swimming. Peter? So, a question that came up for me, that you may have just answered, was what was going on in Zen when Dogen went to China and what did he bring back that was unique? And I think, did you answer it with these various types of Zen that he brought back.

[40:47]

No, when he came back, he said, what did you bring? He said, well, nothing. My eyes are horizontal. My nose is vertical. That's all I know. Other than that, I didn't bring anything back. So what's Bodhichitta? Chitta means mind. And bodhi means Buddha. Well, so bodhicitta is, as I remember, we talked about it a long time ago, back in Greenbelt's old time, it seemed like, that's like the desire, that's kind of like way-seeking mind. Yeah, bodhicitta is like way-seeking mind. So we can seek without gaining. Yeah. So I don't know, it's kind of a word. Well, you know, that's wordplay. So you have to understand these words, and not take them totally literally.

[41:50]

Anything that you take literally will stop you. You have to get to the meaning. We say reading the other side of the page, or reading between the lines. We say reading between the lines. In Japanese, it depends on reading the other side of the page. Or the inquiring impulse. The inquiring impulse. mind, so to speak. It's like, of course you have that, but that doesn't mean a gaining mind. It means the mind of desire. Gaining means desire, right? So desire, when you read the literature, it says, cut off desires, right? You can't cut off desires. It doesn't mean cut off. In other words, you wouldn't have anything, no impulse. So desire is the impulse.

[42:53]

So it's where you put the impulse. So if you put the impulse to gain dharmas, to gain things, then that's one way to go. turn desire toward way-seeking mind is no longer called desire. It's called practice. But bodhicitta means way-seeking mind. So way-seeking mind is Tao-shin. You seek what you have, not something else. What I'm looking for is what I already have. But what I already have, the more you look for what you already have, the less you have. So the more you get, to get a lot out of practice means to keep giving up.

[43:56]

So there's nothing to get. The more you give up, the more you have. That's what it's about. The more you give up, the more you have. Except that the more that you have, it's not a burden. You don't have to carry it around. It's just who you are. In fact, if you try to get something, it doesn't work. You just go, like Joshu says, if I go after it, if I don't go after it, what's the point of doing it? something. Forgetting something, you can't get something. It's like you shake the tree and whatever falls off is not you. That's practice. Whatever falls off is not you. When you shake the tree, what is real falls off.

[45:01]

I'd be surprised So it's difficult, because we depend on so much. And so practice is to let go of the crutches. That's why we sit up straight, and we don't lean against the wall. and just letting the essence, essential nature support us. Excellent. You talked about respecting everything, meaning... I don't mean Hitler, no.

[46:08]

No, that's not it. Meaning keeping your practice steady, inside and outside the zendo I think many of us have this experience of being kind of having kind of compulsion to just not just shut down consciousness in my case like certain number of hours per day then the mind says I cannot respect everything I cannot keep my practice steady because of that shutdown is there a way to turn my attitude about that? I don't know what you mean by shut down. I mean you're just saying keep your consciousness steady, keep your awareness steady and respect everything because Buddha nature is in everything, right? But I often feel that I have to be unconscious.

[47:13]

I cannot do that. Maybe I should What do you mean by unconscious? Buddha nature is beyond consciousness. Consciousness can actually be a hindrance. Unconsciousness can be an asset. Unconscious, beyond consciousness. Then I would erase that word and say... Awareness? or awareness or presence. Presence. Should we say that? So what does it feel like to be unconscious? It feels like a wind is blowing hard and I will not, maybe I shouldn't be bringing this up on the last day of Sashi, when I didn't sit the Sashi. That's okay. It feels like something just pushes my awareness away and that's all.

[48:21]

And I want to be away from that awareness. You know, we have kind of like the desire for perfection. We want to be right all the time. We want to be on all the time. There are always all these hindrances, so to speak, that are stumbling blocks and so forth. Those, though, if you see those as stumbling blocks, if you see them as hindrances, then it's a big mistake. When we say continuous practice, it doesn't mean that continuous practice is just my ideal. It means continuous practice of all my mistakes. Dogen says, a Zen master's practice can be nothing but one mistake after another.

[49:25]

Don't take that literally. But it's like whatever happens is practice. Whatever is there is practice. We want this, we just say this is good and this is bad. So it's like Everything is just what it is. That's what it means to see everything as buddhanature. It's not that buddhanature is in things. That's buddhanature. And what we call mistakes and stumbling is just our desire to act in a certain way and we're not doing that. So that helps us if we use those That's not helpful. But that's morning practice, you know. It's okay. But... Oh, I'm so bad. Oh, I... I really don't know what you mean exactly by this blank space.

[50:36]

Which is... It sounds like a blank... It sounds like a blank space. Which is... I don't know. I think sometimes in people's effort to be mindful and careful and respectful of things, and then they have everything else besides, like their family and work and whatnot, and they kind of max out. And then they may slam the door, they may bang the teacup or something. At least that's what I'm inferring from Linda's question. There's a place where I can't keep it up anymore. And when I do something that feels disrespectful, it sounds like what you're saying is, note that a moment of disrespecting the cup, or losing my attention, or just being tired and worn out. I'd like to beat myself up about that.

[51:38]

Thank you. Is that a point? I like that. I think that's good. Because I know that feeling myself of this wanting to be unconscious, be quiet, and not worry about things. And people know me well enough that things are at right angles and all the rest of that stuff. And it's actually nice to let go of my own tendencies of wanting things to be perfect and right and all that. And people think, well, you must really be upset because things aren't the way you like them. And I tell people when they visit our apartment, it's OK. It's OK if it's not like that. It wasn't okay years ago, because I was really into, and I still have that residual stuff, and I can still feel that condition arise, but it doesn't compel me to have to do anything, mostly.

[52:40]

Sometimes I still do. You know, people would say to Shakyamuni, well, sometimes I get very angry, or sometimes I get very this and that. He'd say, oh, angry Buddha. That's all. Well, I was going to add a couple of things. One, I think the thing with the bite is that And I said something to the effect, as far as my practice, that sometimes I feel like I just need a vacation from just doing this stuff.

[53:48]

And she just simply said to me, well, you may find at some point that you don't need a vacation. Yeah. That's what I like to assume. You guys keep talking. Please help me reconcile. the idea that everything is Buddha nature with all the evil, like Hitler, and sadistic intention and action. How does that fit into the picture of everything is Buddha nature? Well, good and evil is something that we have a problem with. The mountains don't. The fish don't. I interpret that as saying there is Buddha nature even in all the evil, but that also nature is what we call evil. Buddha nature does not cater to our distinctions.

[55:16]

Okay, thank you. That makes sense to me. Yeah, of course. I was wondering if you could give us the Suzuki Roshan quote again about evanescence and where it comes from. Yes. Well, he just said it. I don't know. I mean, this is basically his... He may just have... I don't know. In the evanescence of life, we find the joy of eternal life. In other words... Eternal life means stillness.

[56:27]

That which is beyond... You know, there's life and then there's birth and then there's death. So life is not the opposite of death. Birth and death are two activities. And life is still. So life is bigger than just what we call As I mentioned, if you look at public television, they have this advertisement for nature, and they have the various animals, you know, and there's this flash of this fish with a huge open mouth.

[57:45]

And you don't even know it's a mouth because it's so big. a little school of tiny fish and they go right in the mouth and the mouth goes... These fish, they're just babies and they just swim in like this and they just swim into this dark thing and it closes and that's the end. That's how life is like that too. Well, I think on this question, and Paul's question, the Saha world is the world to be endured. That's what it means. Endured. You know, what you've quoted, we have to, for intensive government, to be able to see that side from this side, and this side from that side. seems to me critical.

[58:51]

We have the Buddha nature is what we're positing as one side and human nature is what you're positing as the other side. So from one side, from our human side, we need to be capable of seeing Buddha nature in everything. From the Buddha nature side, there has to be the capability of discerning good and evil acting on that. So it's not just like whatever. No, it's not just whatever. That's right. Now Paul looks perplexed. That's confusing to me. But from the Buddha nature side, from that side we have to see good and evil. I think it's from the human side we have to see... Anyway. We already do see that from the human side. Yes. But from our human side our practice is to be able to see Buddha nature. From our Buddha nature side, which is also an expression and a manifestation of what we are, we also have to include our human nature.

[60:04]

We have to include our ability to discern good and evil. So it's not part of human nature, which is also an expression Right, so we don't get out of, we're still faced with a problem of good and evil, it's just we have a really big foundation in which to understand it, I think. human being give rise to these wonderful qualities in us, like compassion. Go ahead. Yeah.

[61:05]

Also, you know, and Dogon talks about the six worlds too. In the heavenly world, in the realm of leisure and wealth and so forth, people are not, there's no need to do that, and so that's a kind of hindrance to actually being That's where Buddha came from. That's where Shakyamuni came from. He came from that world where his father took every hindrance away, so to speak, and gave him the big hindrance, of course, of wealth. Wealthy people are very unhappy quite often. Yes, of course. Little problems get magnified. Some of the best stories, you know, are about the wealthy sons and daughters who realize this.

[62:10]

I've come to not see things in terms of good and evil. I see things in terms of suffering and not suffering. And so when I think about anything that might be called evil, I see it as that is somebody's suffering that they lived that not only did they create, but they lived through. Often, for example, pedophiles were pedophiled upon, for example. And I was sitting with a guy at a San Quentin a few days ago, and he murdered someone. And he is now like this. He has gone through all this entire process of becoming aware of himself. The Buddha nature is reflecting. I mean, I love this guy so much because he has come to almost the same awareness that somebody has come to over years of practice. It's really quite amazing. So you can see the Buddha nature being reflected. And all he wants to do is benefit others and in honor of the victim that he took the life of.

[63:24]

So this is the most beautiful representation of seeing suffering being transformed. Well, what we think of as good in one era becomes what we think of as bad in another. We think it was bad in one era, we think it was good later on. Good and bad keep changing the face of things. So, good and evil are just terms that we use to describe something. In his case, his father had been a very abusive, angry person. He started drinking and smoking at 13, 14, got in with the wrong group of people. You know, you can hear the story. That often happens in prison. It sometimes happens in practice, when people come to practice.

[64:29]

Well, I'm putting some limitations on our actions, our activities, so that we can actually focus. I see that you're having one question before we end, which is, I wonder if you want to give any instruction What kind of instruction do you mean? Yeah, I think I know what you mean. Yes. Okay. Thank you. There will be a shuso ceremony today. Illustrious shuso will sit up here and take your questions. So, in the course of the evolution of shuso ceremonies, I think we've come a long way, and people really ask good questions.

[65:48]

There was a time when questions were not always so good, you know. But sagas have matured, and people come up with And it's hard to do that. Sometimes people say, I don't like to come to a shusha ceremony because I can't think of a good question. Or it's too long and my legs are... Sometimes people say, well, I have a two-part question. It's just one part question. The shuso should not explain something to you.

[66:52]

It's simply a response to your question. So don't expect an explanation. It's a response. It's like your question is an answer. It's like the box and the lid fitting for the two airports meeting. It's not an explanation. It's a meeting, a calling and responding. So this is not easy to do at all. So let's keep it on a nice level.

[68:02]

Often the shusa will start to explain something and then people start asking questions which need explanations and then it's all lost. So the shusa's job is not to explain. So we should all enjoy this. And the quality of this event in large part will depend on the quality of your questions. Thank you.

[68:59]

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