Taxi. Okay. Taxi. Okay, so what kind of cabinet are you going to have? What kind of car was it? I'll tell you all about it. Okay. I don't like to be prompted. Okay. Let's just sit here and eat. No, no need to prompt me. Okay. I know all those questions. Okay. Well, let's see, what year was it anyway? Well, yeah, probably 58 or 59, 58 probably, when I started driving. And at that time, you had to start driving with Yellow Cab. And Yellow Cab was owned by Rothschild, one of the Rothschilds. Really? Uh-huh. But he was a local Rothschild. He was called the rabbi.

[01:05]

Everybody referred to him as the rabbi. But it was a personally owned company. Franchise or whatever. And they actually gave you a road test, a driving test to see if you could drive. I don't think they do that anymore. The taxi business is totally different now. See if you can drive, and what your reactions were, and so forth. And then they said, if you ever have an accident at an interception, it's your fault, no matter what happens. So they gave us some driving, you know, school-ish, school. Do you mean an accident involving hitting a pedestrian? Anything. Anything. Anything. Because you're always going through intersections.

[02:09]

That's where accidents usually happen. And you should always be aware of what you're doing. And so then, in those days, you had to wear a suit and a tie. A dark suit and a tie. And yes, and no beards, no long hair. And you had to get out of the cab when you stopped and help the customer and go all the way around and help the customer out. Not just lean over and open the door. You go all the way around and because San Francisco is a, you know, kind of had this reputation of being a kind of high class town. And so you had to treat the customers, and it showed us how to disembark the customers. For a woman, you take her hat in one hand, you take her hand in the other, you take her elbow.

[03:25]

And the elbow is where you're not going to hurt the person. You're not going to feel them up. And that's the proper way to disembark a passenger. One hand on the hand, one hand on the elbow. And so it was high class. So I worked for Yellow Cab for a couple of years, and you had to work full-time for Yellow Cab. And the wonderful thing about it was that you just get half of what you made is what you get. So you turn in your money at the end of the night, and they give you half. And so you got paid in cash every day, which was the perfect job, you know, for me. I lived from end to mouth.

[04:31]

And then you got your tips. And then you're just all over town, you know. And for a long time, when I worked for Yellow Cab, I didn't have radio because I didn't want to be botched by radio. And so I just picked people up, you know. And you just pick up everybody. I mean, I did. I just picked up everybody. And I remember my first dispatch. They did dispatch me. was an Italian princess. I don't remember much about her. Where did you pick her up? Oh, I think it was one of the hotels, you know. And, uh, so he just ran into everybody, you know, he just ran into every person. And then later, I didn't want to work full time. I got really tired of that. I wanted to just work part time. So I went to which had become a co-op, a cab driver's co-op.

[05:39]

And the guy hired me full-time, part-time. So it got to be where I could just walk in any time and go to work. Or not, you know. What is this? Well, I think I stopped in 1964 when I started practicing. It started... So six years from 58 to 64. Can I ask some questions as we go on? Because I want to atmosphere. I have things I want to know. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. I want to know what the streets look like. I want to know how much traffic, if there were parking spaces. I want some details. I need details here. I know, but you have to give me a chance to get into it. OK. You're pushing the envelope.

[06:42]

OK. Go ahead. Because I can only answer those questions as I go along. If you ask me a specific question, then it breaks my train of thought. Because my train of thought gets into all that. Right, but you also then stay on the train and then you go so far away that I can't get back to what I want that is part of that peace. So that's something also. Do you know what I mean? Because we just keep going and going. We're always just going to have an account that only stays at a certain level. We could just, we could travel along literally. You tend to go literally, and then, [...] and then. And I like for you to tell something, and then go a little deeper, or go someplace within, and then go on to the, but, because at some point we need that depth. But I have to get to something we're talking about, and then go in.

[07:44]

But there's, okay, I would love to have a description of what it looked like. What did the city look like? Well, I always drove at night. Okay, so what did it look like at night? At night, there was North Beach, which was always very busy. And downtown was kind of busy, but not so much. And then there was the Mission. And then with the Mission, there was always something going on. And then the avenues is where If somebody took you out to the avenues, it's like... Well, you know, you're not supposed to drive in from the avenues, you're supposed to... There are call boxes, you know, and you plug into the call box and wait for a call, so that you can just sit there and wait. And then when somebody, when they give you a call on the call box, or the radio, by that time I was using the radio, then...

[08:52]

Instead of driving all the way in, you wait for a call to pick up somebody in the avenue just coming downtown. So you don't come back in? So there's a lot of waiting. And you just kind of sit there and wait, you know. Or you can read a little bit. And then it gets, in the winter, there are no heaters that I can remember. And you just sit there in the cold, you know, waiting for a call. gets, the less calls there are. During the winter, business goes way down. As soon as this gets cold, people are off the street. They stay home. And then when the weather warms up, people start moving around more, like bees. Like insects and everything, calling it warmth. That's right. Yeah, same thing. Oh. Yeah. So, but, Going from, usually at night, you want to get back into tender circulation, you know, like North Beach and downtown and the mission.

[10:06]

The North Beach is tourists and traffic, you know, tourists and traffic. You don't want to get stuck in the traffic, but you want to pick up the tourists and then you want to get out Oh, well, there's the strip joints, and the restaurants, and the atmosphere, and Grand Avenue, and Chinatown. Oh, Chinatown's another one. places, so that you're in the middle of things, you know, but at the same time you don't want to get stuck. So you plan out all your routes, you know. And the mission was the bars, people bar hopping, you know, in the mission.

[11:11]

All these local bars in the mission. There was the town pump, at 18th and Mission, which was a kind of, they finally closed that down. And then there was the Irish bars. The Irish loved to drink, you know. And the Irish pub was nothing like it was in Ireland, but it was more like just a bar, you know. People know each other and after work that's where they hang out. They go from one bar to another and get very drunk. But I love the Irish because the Irish have a certain way of speaking. The way they use language is very different from the way we use language. because it's an old language, and because people were not embarrassed to say beautiful things about it in their language.

[12:23]

The language still had that kind of wonderful, endearing quality. I just used to love when they'd speak, because they'd use these wonderful terms, like Bonnie and stuff like that. And I remember one time picking up this guy who everybody was deeply respected and were afraid of. And he was kind of like a boss, but he was only about four feet tall. And he had a real strong voice. He had a real strong voice. And these people just I remember getting in the cab and these guys, just big guys, you know, just worshipped him. He just was in control of things, you know. I don't know who he was. But you pick up everybody and then there are the drunks that you have to maneuver around, you know, and then there are the people with their sad stories and the people who

[13:39]

know where they're going and the people that don't know where they're going. And the people that have money and the people that don't have money. The poorest people, you know, like the people you pick up in the Mission or down on 3rd Street or Mission Street, Upper Mission Street downtown. You know, transients, you know, in life. When they had some money, they would take a cab, you know? How can these people afford a cab? But somehow, they get, you know, something comes to them, right? Some money. And then they just spend it. And so they go to the bar, you know, and then they give you a big tip, you know? Big tip. But you pick up people uptown, you know, from an expensive hotel or some old ladies, you know, and they dole out the tip, you know, according to a percentage, which is a formula, according to a formula.

[14:50]

But the other people just, you know, the poor people just lay it on you. And then spending hours, you know, somebody starts talking to you about their troubles, whatever. And then I just stop, you know, talk to him, you know, for an hour or something like that, you know. And that's quite frequent. And unless somebody was obnoxious, I would just stay with him until, you know. So as a character, it's easy to become a kind of eater. for, you know, people that have to talk to somebody. So, you know, dealing with drugs all night and dealing with people that don't know where they're going, people that have having these problems and the combination of all three or four.

[15:59]

You just meet everybody. I don't know. I can't remember any one case. I mean, I do remember certain cases. I remember one guy I picked up. Well, several people, yeah. But I remember one guy who was a Marine, and I picked him up, and he just was picking on me like hell, you know? And... You just couldn't understand why you didn't want to fight with him. You know, people like that. People that pull guns on you. And I remember one guy pulling a gun, and he didn't want to rob me. He just said, what would you do, you know? There's this gun, you know, what would you do? I said, well, if you want to shoot me, if this is what you really want to do, go ahead. That's it.

[17:03]

And he was really taken aback. And he said, finally put it away. He said, I really feel ashamed of myself. That's how he did my response to people like that. If this is what you really want to do, go ahead. Yeah, if that's what you want to do, go ahead. Did you feel any fear? Not really. I've never felt any fear in an automobile. I always feel safe in an automobile. And there have been many close calls. But I trained myself driving a taxi. It was great driver training for me. Because to get from one place to another as fast as possible, to make all the lights, to know the routes, and to be totally aware of what I'm doing all the time.

[18:08]

Even when I drive now, I know people have made it. I've got a kind of reputation for driving strategically. I always drive strategically. where most people are just driving along. I'm just looking for the holes and looking for the signals and sizing up every situation, moment by moment, just naturally. That's the way I drive. And so it looks like I'm driving fast or even recklessly, but I'm driving totally concentratedly. I've never checked with tape. And I also had another guy who said, why would you carry a gun?

[19:09]

Some guy like me is holding a gun and holding it to his head. People like to intimidate you like that. I said, go ahead. If that's what you want to do, go ahead. Nowadays, they might blow your head off. Yeah. It's possible. But characters got robbed in those days, but not as nearly as much as today. I remember these two kids I picked up, and I got to the Presidio, and they opened the door and ran away. And I really pissed off. And so I just kind of cruised around a little bit. waiting for them to, they disappeared into the Presidio. And then I saw them coming out, and I barreled toward them, you know. I was going to actually see if I could pin them against the wall, but they ran.

[20:16]

They kind of, you know, ran away, but I did kind of intimidate them. I remember this one guy, I picked up in North Beach, and the bars close at 2, you know, that's a good time to be in North Beach, where you can pick up somebody. So I picked up this drunk guy, very drunk, he got in the back seat and he said, take me to the Standard Oil Dock. Well, probably down there at the end of the Embarcadero. So I went down the Embarcadero kind of looking for it. And then he woke up and he said, I said, I said, where is this place? And he woke up and he said, take me to the Standard Oil Dock in Richmond. So then he fell back asleep again.

[21:19]

So I went to Richmond. It was a long drive. And I thought, I hope this guy has some money. You never know if anybody's got money or not. And I had a little hard time finding it that time of night. But I finally did find it. And you walk out this plank, this long boardwalk with no side rails. It's a long boardwalk that goes out, and then there's a tanker out there. You've seen those tankers when you go across the Richmond Bridge? Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. And there's a long boardwalk that goes out there. So I open the door and try to wake him up, you know, and he's very religious. He doesn't want me to wake him up, you know. He's, ah, ah, ah. I said, we're here, you know, let's go.

[22:21]

walk out to the ship and he and I on this long boardwalk, right? How long? It's like a half a mile to the ship? Quarter of a mile. And then we go up on the ship and go into his bunk room. And there's all these bunks that are all metal and lockers that are all metal. All these, you know, metal So if you have a fight in a place like that, it's just, you know, mayhem, right? So I wanted to avoid a fight. But he was, you know, he wasn't. He was trying to provoke me, you know. So he comes to his locker, and he says, here's my locker, you know. And then he has a combination lock. So he's fiddling with the lock, you know, and taking his time. You know, I'm really drunk.

[23:45]

And finally, he gets the lock opener. And he fiddles around, you know, on the grillie or on the grillie, trying to provoke me. but I was getting awfully antsy, awfully, you know. And so he takes this bill out, and it's a $100 bill. He says, he says, he says, I can't change that. I mean, you know, this is a $100 bill. It's a lot of money. And he stuffs it in my pocket. He says, you know, he says, send me back the change. So I turned around, walked out of this bunk room. I'm just sitting down on the gangplank, got out of my cabin, drove away.

[24:49]

I earned that hundred dollars. I earned that too. Then when I came back, I was going across the bridge. The guy at the toll plaza told me that some guy had gone down the bridge. The East Bay Bridge? The Bay Bridge at like, I don't know, 150 miles an hour or something. And he hit the pylon, you know, that divides the two roads. That was before they had those garbage can things there, you know. And he said the car was so smashed The guy in the car, they couldn't tell where it was. It just melded into the corner. After that, they had those pylons.

[25:51]

They put those garbage cans there, you know, sand or something. I don't know what it made, actually. You're going over the bridge and then you get to the end, where it divides into going down to the mission, or you're going off down to San Jose, and then you go up that first street. Right. So there. I want to hit that. I want to go to the kamikaze. Yeah, you want to kamikaze. I would drive at night. May I ask one little question here? May I ask a little something? How about women? Well, yeah, women. Yeah, let's hear about that. Women in the cab. All kinds of women.

[26:53]

Old women, young women. Do you remember picking up any women in the cab? Yeah, I remember picking up one woman in North Beach. She kind of thought I was cute, you know, which I was at the time. And she asked me about myself, you know, and I told her, somehow I told her I was Jewish, and she said, oh, I'd like to, I want to have a lot of Jewish babies. No babies there? No, not at all. But I did have some amorous kind of encounters.

[28:00]

Like what? I remember this, four women got in this taxi. And they were going to meet their husbands at some club or something. And then when we stopped, this one woman, I can't remember exactly what it was, but You know, I kissed her, you know, and she really liked that, you know, and she said, I'm going to stay here. She didn't want to go with him. She wanted to stay, but I, you know, I had to get him out of the camp. Take the money out of him.

[29:02]

You had to disembark there and kind of get on with your business. Yeah. But, you know, at that time, The town was closed. There were no prostitutes. Really? No. You said the town was closed? It was called closed, yeah. The mayor... I've never heard his name. Yeah, who was the mayor? Um... Christensen? Christensen, I think. But the town was closed. There were, I mean, there were no prostitutes. They were after-hours joints, you know. beat Bop City, and basically went to Bop City. What district were they in? What district? Were they south of Market, or where were they? Who's they? Oh, they were downtown. Downtown. The upper outskirts. And in Fillmore. And in Fillmore?

[30:03]

Yeah. And Bop City was on McAllister, I think. Around McAllister and Fillmore. I'm trying to think about encounters with women. I mean, I'd have encounters with women all the time. You know? Sure. On a daily basis, of course. Yeah. And some were kind of intimate and some were... you know, troublesome. But... Who mostly talked with you and told you their troubles? Everybody. Everybody. I remember there was this one black guy, and I took him to Chinatown.

[31:11]

And he said, well, you know, I don't have much money. He said, I'll give you this. He said, I'll meet you back here tomorrow, same place. I knew that he wouldn't. I said, go ahead, go ahead. But I remember there's this one guy who took somebody to Goldgate Bridge. And the guy got out of the car and jumped over the bridge. And the cab driver was complaining that he didn't get paid for the fare. Oh no! And he wrote a letter to the guy's family asking for the fare. Imagine that.

[32:14]

It's a shocking story. I can't close my mouth. That's really amazing that someone would think that way. Yes. But you actually must have suffered some financial losses. I mean, if you spent time with people. Oh, well, see, my whole philosophy of money was that if I had, if I was working, I would always have enough money. I was never worried about how much money I had. I never knew how much money I had. As long as I had something in my pocket, I had money, you know? So, I never counted my money. Never did count it. And so, I just knew as long as I had, I was working, somebody was coming in, and I had money. I didn't spend it, you know, on anything. I always bought my clothes at the Goodwill.

[33:15]

And whenever I needed something, I'd just go to the Goodwill and buy a pair of pants or buy a shirt or something like that, you know. And you can get wonderful things much better than you could by going down to the store and buying them. Because you get high-class clothes, you know, and a wider selection than you would going to the store. Anyway, but, and it was, of course, cheap, you know. But I wasn't, you know, clothes, so I didn't buy any. And if I ever needed something, I would always have, I would be able to buy it, you know? But, so you were concerned, like, when someone needed to talk and you would stop and actually took them someplace and just sit and listen to them, you didn't feel like, oh, I need to be out making more money. No. I mean, sometimes I did. I thought, well, I'm not making any money now.

[34:18]

But I didn't let that, you know. But talk about that a little bit, because you said another time on the talk that you had a sense of that this was a practice. Yeah, it was a practice. So at the time, I was driving a cab. influenced by the tales of the Hasids, you know, and identified somewhat with that spirituality. And I felt that I was, my driving the cab was my on-the-street work, you know, spiritual practice. And so, listening to people and, you know, talking to them and giving them some positive feedback, you know, I felt like that was my practice.

[35:32]

So, I welcomed doing that. I didn't feel it was distracting from my I was just making enough money. It was a job, making money to get along. I wasn't trying to make a lot of money. I never worried about how much money I was making. As long as I was working, I felt secure enough. Do you remember what it was in the hospital? Well... Why that? Because that's where I was. I felt that as... Well, you know, in Judaism, every male, every Jewish male is a priest.

[36:43]

It's true. Yeah. whether they like it or not. Just like, you know, everyone is a Buddha, whether they like it or not. Or whether they practice it or not, or whether it's awakened or not. So, I just took on that role. That was my, you know, I felt being in the street was the place to be, rather than, I mean, I much preferred being in the street than being in the temple. So I always appreciated, you know, that's why I wanted, I suggested, or David told me,

[37:50]

as a priest. Pretty patchy. Yeah, because that's what he was doing in the street, you know, skin priest. And so I always liked that idea. So that's what I did. I felt that that's what I was doing. I have a couple of questions about San Francisco. Is that the right one? Yeah. Oh, no. How much traffic there was? Oh, there was a lot of traffic. OK. But, like, in comparison today, and, like, today, for instance, there's almost no place to park. I mean, you have to ride around and ride around. It's the same then. It was the same then? Oh, yeah. It was the same then. The streets were congested, and parking- Just the same. Parking places were few. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was totally the same. It's just more of it now, but it was the same.

[38:54]

Did you say what model or kind of cab it was? Yeah, the cabs were Plymouths. Plymouths, okay. Yeah, and you'd come into the cab company and go upstairs or wherever it was, and then you'd get these beat up old Plymouths. And they were really beat up, but they were nice, you know. They were small and, you know, And then every time you get into one, you know, it would be a different car. Oh, really? Each day when you went to trial? Yeah. And some of them had old bad clutches, and some of them had good clutches. And then you'd hop into it immediately and move out, and you'd have to adjust to that particular car right away. Then they brought in these plimbists that had the fins.

[39:55]

Yeah, I do. I can just picture that. And they lowered the roof. And in lowering the roof to make it streamline, they made you have to put your feet straight out in order to reach the pedals. And then they had these big fins. The car was twice as big. It was just like this awful, you know, when you're driving, you're making 75, 80 miles in a night, just in the city, right? Just driving around the city, 75, 80 miles every night. And you do that in one of those things with fins in the lower roof. I mean, that was just murder. I always went for the old cabs, you know, rather than the new ones. And then toward the end, when I was working for DeSoto, which is a great cab company, they got the last Studebakers, which were really nice because you could sit up high.

[41:05]

It's a car that's made to fly. So, you know, it's hard for me to remember my adventures. I just, you know... Well, how about this? What's Zen like about driving? I mean, I got some taste of that when you were talking about the way you drive strategically. It seems like there was a lot of engagement and awareness that you were bringing to what you were doing. Right. It's because when you drive, It's a shared game. People don't realize that it's a game. And you're sharing the road with all these other people in their cars, and there are rules, right? And so you're following the rules, and hopefully you're following the rules, but people don't pay attention, you know?

[42:11]

They don't realize it's a game, they're just driving to get someplace. But while you're on the road, you're interacting with all these other cars who are also, everybody's going someplace different, but they're all doing it on the same road that you're on. to be aware of the people on either side, or in back and in front, and the situation up front, as well as the situation behind you. Right. Both immediately and extended, no further. Right. So you know what's going on around you all the time, and the scene in front of you is changing all the time. And every moment it's a different situation. to drive strategically means that to get to your destination using the least amount of effort to do the most work, you know, means that you have to pay attention.

[43:29]

Otherwise, you have people driving, gee, I hate driving, you know, in the city. I don't like driving in the city." Of course not. They're following on a railroad track. You know, following behind somebody else. And whatever the person in front of them is doing, they're controlled by that. Instead of taking control. To take control means that you don't follow behind somebody else who's controlling you. You have your open road. So you're always looking for your open road so that you can actually drive your car. And that's what makes it interesting. I was giving Daniel a driving lesson, and he was driving behind somebody. He said, gee, this is boring. Of course it's boring. It's boring because you're not doing anything. You're just fumbling along. But it becomes interesting when you drive strategically, because you're doing the game, playing the game.

[44:42]

And it is a game, but most people aren't playing it. If everybody was playing the game, then it would be wonderful, you know? You know those little cars, electric cars, bumper cars? See, everybody's out there playing the game, and it's interesting, right? It's the same game and it was a reverse of that. Yes, but you don't bump into anybody. And if anybody is aware, then things are going smoothly and harmoniously with awareness. Interesting. And you control the road. Either you control the road or you're controlled by it. To be controlled by the road means that You think you're on a railroad track, and you can't maneuver, and you just do what the person in front of you does.

[45:48]

And then you, you know, there are some people who want to stop at signals. Because they're all timed, most sometimes. They're timed. And if you go a certain speed, then you can go through all the signals. You don't have to stop every one of them, right? But a lot of people don't pay attention to that. So they're not playing the game. And it's not interesting for them, you know? Boring, of course. But when you control the road means that when somebody tries to take your ride away, you don't let them do that.

[46:51]

You make them pay attention. You make them stay there. They don't want to turn in front of you. You stand your ground. controlling the road. Also, you're controlling the road because when you're driving in a positive way, everybody takes their place in relationship to what you're doing. So when you're driving in a positive manner, everybody around you has to take their place because you're the only one that's driving in a positive manner. But not everyone. I mean, people that are driving in a positive manner or not, they will take their place because of what you're doing. They respond to what you're doing. So, it's irresponsible to not control the road.

[48:02]

People drive irresponsibly. You kind of know what they're going to do and you can't get out of their way. But if they were all driving responsibly, you wouldn't have to get out of people's way. You would have to recognize what everybody else is doing and be sensitive to the way everybody else is driving. And then things would work harmoniously. How is driving like music? You're creating a harmonious situation with all those other moving vehicles. Everybody's playing their part. You could actually make a musical composition

[49:06]

I'm using the sounds of the road. I'd like to talk about that. How often do you drive with your ears? I discovered that once. I had a damaged ear. I broke an ear drum. And I couldn't stand to drive my car. And I realized that I depended so much on my hearing. Primarily on my hearing. That's how I knew if my car was okay. That's how I knew what was really happening around me. It threw me off. was the ear, or both. Very ear-dependent. Okay, so we see some of the Zen quality. It also reminds me of what you told me about that time I asked you in our other interviews about things on your plate. So it had to do with being aware of relationships between things on the table. Right, so it's a similar kind of thing Well, it's because it's bodies in relationship to each other.

[50:14]

Right. And the altar, there are all these objects on it. Yeah. I'm talking about that. No, say it again. The incense bulbs, and there's flowers, and there's They're all arranged. But they all are arranged in relationship to each other. They're not just put up to help us filter. And so when I look at the altar, the Buddha is in the middle, in the back. And then I line up the incense bowl with the Buddha's nose, the middle of the incense bowl. And then the other incense bowl in front of that, with the legs turned. And then on the other dimension, going across, the figures line up with the incense burner.

[51:25]

And then there's some space, spatial relationship between those two, the figures, and between the figures and the incense burner. And so all of the spatial relationships line up at various angles, not just up and down or across, but also at the triangles, right? And when things are lined up in that way, there's a very peaceful and symmetrical feeling that you have without the alter. And it has some kind of power. So it's the power of creating a harmonious feeling. Creating a harmonious feeling, yeah. And putting things down in relationship to each other on the table, you know, that's also important.

[52:34]

Creating that same kind of feeling on any surface with objects. How do they relate to each other? Are they pushed off? The thing is, how do you pay attention to them? How does their spatial relationship affect you? I think that's very much a part of careful practice with things. When I used to take acid, it seemed to me that everything had, everything was emitting vibrations. And when you move objects, the way that objects are in relation to one another affects their vibration. So when they're in a certain relationship, physical relationship, then they vibrate.

[53:35]

They vibrate when you put them together. You can actually have acid, you can kind of like almost see that. communicating and talking with all the other objects. That's right. But we're not usually aware of them. That's right. Well, we're aware of color vibrations because color clashes, you know, and the various colors have definitely, you know, vibrations. That's all they are, really. And the color is actually in our own eye. It's not out there. Right. And objects, we don't see this so much, but they also have they're vibrating at a certain frequency. And then the way they're spatially arranged creates either a harmonious or an inharmonious relationship. And so when you can do that, when you're aware of that, when you get with people, you also become aware of spatial relationships.

[54:40]

Just being aware of the different vibrations of different people around you. And how you're affected by those vibrations and how the other people are also affected by the inter-vibratory relationships. It's very complex. The more you focus on that, the more aware you are in all situations. And it certainly is on the road, you know. But, I mean, driving big, kind of heavy vehicles, metal vehicles, speeding at 60, 80 miles an hour, you know. The freeway now, 70, is crazy. I mean, it is. And I do it, I love it, you know.

[55:44]

But all these vehicles are hurtling down the street, down the highway, and they need to be instinctive to it. They definitely do. So for me driving in the city, for most people driving in the city is awful. But I love driving in traffic. I mean, not real jammed up traffic, but moving, you know, moving in and out. Driving, what I call strategically, so that you're always looking for openings and always how to uncongest the rope, decongest the rope, I'm sure.

[56:50]

So that you're not part of the problem. Is that it? It's 12? It's 12.20.

[57:04]

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