I said that yesterday that Hozan would be giving a talk yesterday. I said the day before. And he graciously offered me to do that yesterday. And I said, okay. And today I'm going to continue. Today I'm going to continue with Suzuki Roshi's commentary. Suzuki Roshi, when he talks about the powers and the arhats, it's very loose, you know, according to his understanding and his feeling about it. And you kind of miss the systematization of it as a system. I mean, as a... So I want to... to make clear what the six powers of the arts are before I continue with the commentary.

[01:36]

The six powers actually are called the Abhijnaas. How do you spell that? Magic powers. A-B-H-I-N-N-A. This is a Buddhist dictionary, which was put together by Jan Amaldi, who was a German Buddhist. German Buddhists in the early days were great scholars, as Germans are. Kansei was a great scholar, a German scholar. And to put together a dictionary is not an easy thing. It took the Oxford Dictionary, I don't know if you know the story of the Oxford Dictionary, but it's a great adventure. So the six supernatural powers of the Arhats are, number one is magical powers, the divine ear, penetration of the minds of others, the divine eye, remembrance of former existences, and extinction of all cankers.

[03:00]

Canker is a word that was used a lot by the Germans. And the early translators always used that word. It means obstructions. Obstructions. And that's as far as I want to go in that explanation, because each one is explaining thinking I should be talking about. Maybe I'll read just a little bit more. So the six higher powers, or supernormal knowledges, consist of five mundane powers, attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration, and one supermundane.

[04:09]

So power attainable through penetrating insight extinction of all cankers. In other words, the realization of our action, our holiness. And, okay. So, Dōmyōn, Suzuki Ryōji is talking about the six powers, according to his understanding, the supernatural power of Zen. Last night I explained already about the second sutra recited for the arhats.

[05:25]

And in the echo, the dedication, it says, Anybody that was there during that time, before we changed the echoes to English, remembers all that. And so some people say, jorai makahanya haramita, when they're introducing the sutra, the Heart Sutra. Makahanya haramitas, that's the Heart Sutra, right? Nokudokuwa. Some people say, jorai makahanya But some other people say joraihanya. They don't say maka. Maka means great. So when we read the sutra in English, we say great, Prajnaparamita, heart sutra, right?

[06:36]

And great is maka. But they don't always say maka. Some people say that, but other people say just the sutra. Hanya Haramitashinyo, when they introduce it in Japan. But some people just say ka, from a ka. So, Ka Nagiri Roshi always would say, Ka Hanya Haramitashinyo, in a very powerful voice. Ka Hanya. So that word is not emphasized. Just the sutra introduction is emphasized. It's just a fact. I think it's interesting. You may not. Why do you think it's interesting? Well, we think we're supposed to say, Ma Ka Hanya Har Mitra. But Ma Ka is just an addition.

[07:39]

that the name of the sutra is Hanya Hararita, not Makka, but they just had a great sutra, but great sutra is just an addition, so some people don't emphasize the great. Maybe it's less Zen to not say Makka because it takes a piano every day. So, without saying Maka, he says, that's more usual. When the Kokiya starts the sutra, we say, Maka Hanya Haramita Shingyo. And in the echo, we say, Jorai Hanya Haramita Shingyo. That is more usual, without the Maka. But you can't say, Jokai Maka Hanya Haramita Shingyo. I explained already this much, and tonight I have explained about the Arhats, I have to explain about the Arhats' so-called six supernatural powers.

[08:53]

That's the introduction to the Abhijñas. So Sam-myo-rokutsu, Sam-myo is the power of clairvoyance, to see things through various obstacles. Various obstacles are like walls. So the arhat has the power to see through walls, the power to see, you know, supernatural vision. The arhat can even see his past life, that's another one. The next power is, the order is not quite right, the next power is to hear everything from a distance. Now, back in the 60s, you know, about 1950s, priest who was here and spoke good English and more of a scholar, good scholar.

[09:55]

And he and I were good friends. And I asked Suzuki Roshi if I could take him to Tassajara to give a talk. And Suzuki Roshi said, OK. So Liz and I took him to Tassajara in her Opal Cadet. And he was giving, he stood up to give a talk. We were sitting in a zento, the old zento. And he started talking about enlightenment. I guess he was, maybe he was talking about supernatural power. I think he was actually, because he said, when you're totally enlightened, you should be able to hear ants walking a mile away. There was a big earthquake. Boom. The building was swaying.

[10:56]

And then it stopped. And he kept talking and finished. But it was very interesting. We should be able to hear ants walking. Yeah, we heard the ants marching. So, and that is the Arhat's power. And the last one, he didn't talk about the other ones, is to put an end to the karmic life. So, for Arhat, there is no karma because he extinguished all the desires He doesn't have a different cause in the karma. That's the third power. Actually, it's the last power. Sam-myo is three. Myo is clear. Clear, powerful, power.

[11:57]

That is Sam-myo. So we'll confuse the six powers. The three powers are included in Rokutsu. The first power in Rokutsu is to see everything, clairvoyance, and to have ears capable of hearing everything. He has the power to read someone's mind, to have insight into others, and he's able to observe the cause of the various sufferings. He has the power to see people's past life, including his own past life, And he has a kind of supernatural power to fly across the river without a boat. So that kind of supernatural, a perfect freedom from everything. So this is a more subjective power, the freedom from everything. You cannot say this kind of power is some object of power.

[12:58]

You can't say this is some kind of objective power. It is more subjective. But the Arhat has that kind of power. So he thinks he has some conviction like this. So the way he attained this kind of power is from the power of practice. And this kind of practice is the practice to attain some supernatural power. So, you know, my feeling is that originally people did recognize some insights or powers to do some of these things, but not at a level that they became more elaborately descriptive. For instance, we can read people's minds, and we know a lot of things you know, sensitivities, right?

[14:09]

Through our practice, we attain some super sensibilities, I would say, strong sensibilities and sensitivities. But they become exaggerated over time and become fixed as attainable powers. So that's why we kind of look at this and we scratch our head and say, really? And a lot of literature, Buddhism, has this kind of exaggeration. And that's why Zen practiced Bodhidharma and the Sixth Ancestor. When you read the Platform Sutra, the Sixth Ancestor reduces all of these amazing things into everyday activity, carrying water, chopping wood, So the lance power, to distinguish all the causes of karma, is a more Buddhistic practice, and the power only Buddhists have.

[15:24]

I don't know if only Buddhists have it, but it's the power that Buddhists have. where the supernormal powers are not necessarily buddhistic, but they crept into buddhism. And in those days, when I say those days, I mean the past. Miracles and supernatural powers were something that were created to awe people and to kind of give yourself a strong front to impress people. When Buddhism came to China back in the second century, the monks had these supernatural powers in order to impress the Chinese.

[16:35]

So the last power to extinguish all the causes of karma is a more buddhistic practice, and the power only buddhists have. The purpose of buddhist practice is to be free from karma. That is why buddhists practice the buddhist way. So the last power is the most important one. There is a koan about this power. Gedo, a sage or hermit, called on Buddha and said, we have five, this is a sage outside of Buddhism, We have five supernatural powers, but I heard that you had six. What's the last one? And what is your power which we don't have?" And the Buddha didn't say anything. Without answering his question, Buddha asked the hermit sage, what do you think the last power is? Turned it back on him. So Buddha knew that even though he explained it, the hermit sage People, even Buddhists, think that after attaining arhatship, they will have that sixth power, including the power to be free from karma.

[17:53]

But that last power, the power to be free from karma, is not any special power. That's not a supernatural power. We don't care for that power that's so much and we ignore that power. Of course, if we stop making karma, we will be bored to death. It's true. Yes? You think it reminds me in the ordination ceremony, after you awake or attain enlightenment or something, you've gotten it, so to speak, you're not going to sit back on your laurels, you'll continue to practice. You'll continue this truthful practice, yes.

[18:54]

That's it. Even after attaining enlightenment, will you still continue this truthful practice? Yeah, that seems like the sixth. The sixth, yes. It doesn't seem like supernatural, but it actually is. Just as Laura said, chopping wood and carrying water. Yeah, that is supernatural. So, yeah. It's really hard to give up our karma, our karmic activity, because that's called interest. We love our suffering. We do. If we can't have joy, then we'll have great sadness that equals the joy we would like to have. There's one thing called it. And it can be sad, and it can be happy. But it's the same energy. It's the same psychic energy. And if we can't have what we want, then we destroy it.

[19:56]

We destroy our, you know, like we have a, we're totally in love with somebody, you know, and then they reject us. And all we want to do is wallow in our sadness. Because the energy's still there, but we can't have the happiness. So that unhappiness takes the place of that. And so we have all these wonderful love songs about how much we suffer because I can't have you. But suffering becomes, you know, in the Elizabethan era, the most beautiful, heartfelt, childish love songs were And all of them were about how you close my heart off.

[21:01]

Isn't that Nirvana? The blues, singing the blues, isn't that Nirvana? Singing the blues. Singing the blues. Yeah, singing the blues is Nirvana. Samsara is nirvana. So you feel the pain and then you express it. So nirvana is found within the midst of samsara. Yes. So the five powers... Although we have it, we ignore it. And we think that we have no such power. Buddha must have some special power. The five powers he has are already supernatural special powers, but the sage thought Buddha had one more special power.

[22:02]

But Buddha didn't have any special power. He knew what kind of power he himself had. So usually, because we don't know what is that power, we are involved in karmic practice. If we know that we originally had that kind of power, we will not create any karma. But just because we are ignorant of it, we create karma for ourselves. So even to practice to attain some special power is actually to create karma. So this is the criticism of the Siddhis or the Ambrishnyas, is that whenever we do meditation or practice for It seems also that the Arhat's power would be part of something that arises in the moment to turn the wheel of dharma, but not something they struggled and studied and worked on. But it's still a very powerful power.

[23:02]

Insights and powers do appear, but it's not something you can have. So even though, because of these practices, the arhat can fly to the heaven or go to the heavenly body without any trouble. Still, if he goes to some heavenly body, he has to come back to their world, to the world. If he takes a bath in the heavenly body, he should die in the heavenly body. That kind of supernatural power does not His language is not perfect. The kind of supernatural power is not free from karma, basically. But the last power, which the Buddha has, is the power to be free from karma. And for that purpose, we practice our way. So it's not really... Well, Sadoge Zenji and his Shobo Genzo, the fascicle of supernatural power, Jintsu, wrote about this last power.

[24:18]

We say Roku Jintsu. Roku is six. Jintsu is usually translated supernatural powers. But Jin is a true. So he talks about this true power, not supernatural power. True power is the power that we all have. And it's not something special. So I like that translation a lot better for that classical Dogon, the true power. And so Dogon has a story, which I will... You've heard this story before. Alan translated this with cause. for his Shobo Genzo. So true power. Tsu is the power which is omnipresent, or wherever you go, there is that power.

[25:25]

So it is the power which everyone has, and in its true sense. But when we say five powers or six powers, those powers are the power to work for some purpose. But the true power is the power to work everywhere under various circumstances. In other words, this is the power that is not for some special purpose. So that is tsu, roku jinsu, six true universal powers. Not universal, but something you can apply to every circumstance. In his Shobo Genzo, Dogen referred to the Zen story between Isan and his disciples, Kyozan and Kyoya. You know the story. Most of you do. Great story. And I like the way that Suzuki Roshi presents it. Isan and Kiyosan are the founders of the Ikkyo, or Isan-Kiyosan school. Isan, one day, the teacher, was taking a nap in his cabin, maybe.

[26:33]

Suzuki Roshi gave this talk at Tassahara, and of course, he had his cabin. in his cabin maybe. He was sleeping, and his disciple, Kyo-san, opened the door and saw the teacher was sleeping. So Isan, the teacher, thought, I guess he wasn't really sleeping. He just looked like he was sleeping. Oh, someone came. So he turned to face the wall, and his disciple, Kyo-san, said, Oh, teacher, I'm sorry, but don't be disturbed. I'm your disciple. The student said, can I help you? Yes, I had a dream. So I want to tell you about my dream. And Kyo-san sat down and said, what was your dream?

[27:40]

And Yi-san said, what do you think it was? Clear voice. Then what is supernatural power? Supernatural power is already there. And moreover, his disciple, because he was asked, what do you think my dream was, went to the kitchen. And he brought some water in a basin with a towel. And he offered them to Ison. And Ison thought, oh, this is very good. And he washed his face and wiped it with a towel. And as soon as he finished wiping his face, Kyogen, and Yen said, we were talking about my good dream. What do you think it was? Kyogen turned around and went to the kitchen again and brought a cup of tea. Please have a cup of tea because you washed your face already.

[28:45]

I would have asked you to wash your face, but since you did that, somebody got there before me and I got you a cup of tea. So what is supernatural? Everything is supernatural and nothing is supernatural. This kind of power can be extended everywhere. There is no end to this kind of good relationship between teacher and disciples. There is no end to the relationship. Even though he is the teacher, he has no idea of being that teacher. Even though they are disciples, they feel as if their teacher is their friend. But they know exactly what their teacher needs and what he means. Katagiri always used to say, in America, people don't know how to treat a teacher. I remember there was a, when I was abbot at Sun Center, there was an Iranian student.

[29:51]

I don't want to tell you about him because that But he said, in Iran, if you see your teacher in a restaurant, you go over and pay for his meal. But they know exactly what the teacher needs and what he means. So Dogen Zenzi said, what the student needs. So we ignore this kind of practice. You may rigidly practice Zazen, but you ignore this kind of practice. Sometimes your rigid ideas of practice will be a hindrance to your real practice. This is the kind which was going on between Isan and Kiyosan. Dogen Zenji admired their practice very much. So this is real practice. When you continue this kind of practice without any idea of teacher or disciple or practice, even, then there's no way to create karma.

[31:02]

Even though you see things, things do not create any problem for you because you don't feel you saw them. That's an interesting statement. Even though you see something, you don't need to remember what you've seen. If it is necessary, it will be in your mind. But when it is not necessary, that object you saw will vanish. no karma or no trace of practice or no trace of activity remains. That's a very interesting statement. That kind of practice looks very easy and common, but actually this kind of practice will go on between a good teacher and a good disciple. This is actually the last power of Samyo and the last power of the six supernatural powers. So what he means here is when something happens, you experience it, good, bad, right or wrong or indifferent. And if you need to remember something about it, or do something about it, you will. But otherwise, you don't hang on to it.

[32:04]

You don't harbor ill will, which creates karma. That's the last, the tenth, What is it called? Preset. Preset. Don't harbor ill will. Because then we get caught and our karma grows bigger and bigger and bigger. And when we start defending our angers and our things that we can't get out of, by defending ourselves we keep putting ourselves deeper and deeper into the hole. Yes. What about harboring goodwill? Well, don't harbor anything. The idea of no karma is that you're not... Karma, goodwill is good.

[33:10]

It's better than badwill. But not creating karma at all. I never thought about it. He's an enlightened man. He's an enlightened person beyond karma. Yes. And the person answers, yes, he is. And then he's reborn as a fox for 500 generations. Yes. And then, isn't it Hakujo who has to speak a turning word? Yes. So, the teaching of that is somewhat different. Yes, it's somewhat different. But it's not. You may think that's really good, it's very good to bring that up. Ideally, you don't create karma, but actually you do.

[34:16]

So, this is one of the problems, I think of it as a problem in Buddhism, is that Buddhism has all these high ideals and logical ideals which are presented as the dharma. So that's ideal dharma, head dharma. Ideal means idea. But in actuality, we can't live according to our idea of the dharma. We can't live according to our idea of the dharma. So, although we have the power to not create karma, we're always creating karma. This is the koan, actually, of the fox. We're always creating karma. But our effort is, although we, is to realize this,

[35:25]

helps us to avoid creating karma and to rise above the dualistic understanding of either you're creating karma or you're not. He doesn't say it's one way, he doesn't say it's another. It's like, you can't forget that this is the world that we live in and we have to pay attention. That's right. Even though we have this... Right. Cause and effect are clear as the new day sun. A different translation. What did you say? I heard cause and effect are clear as the new day sun.

[36:27]

Yeah, well that's a different translation. But one of them gives more explanation. Enlightened person does not ignore positive effect, is more explanatory than positive effect. Yes, yeah, yes. So, but it's an important point, is that we have the power, you know, what Jake was talking about, isn't good better than bad, right? Of course. So we live in a dualistic world where good is better than bad for humans. But beyond our human desire, Creating karma is creating suffering.

[37:36]

So, you know, although we're happy, this is Berkeley. We are happy people, comparatively speaking. The world is burning up. So, you know, suffering is the nature. sooner or later the conflagration will be outside the door. So yes, in human terms, in our desire to make things create harmony, good karma is best. So we can't deny that. But over and above that, the reality is karma is what creates problems.

[38:50]

So good and bad, right and wrong, have to be reconciled. Otherwise, they're always one or the other. So good karma creates bad karma. Good creates bad, and bad creates good. Without good, there's no bad. Without bad, there's no good. So, when we say not creating karma, it means to go beyond good and bad, and right and wrong. Even though we have to live in the world of good and bad and right and wrong. That's why we have to have that understanding. The more good we have, I've always thought that you can't ignore karma.

[40:04]

It's also that your good and my good are not the same good. It's all kind of relative, culturally and so forth. Also, even if I have these intentional actions that I think are going to be beneficial, that actually cause harm. Yes. So that's why I think we have our repentance ceremony because we're constantly doing these actions and we really don't know if they're beneficial or not. What's good for one... We actually are killing and we actually are doing things that have a detrimental effect all the time. What's good for one is not good for the other. And what's bad for one is not bad for the other. So, anyway, we should understand this, even whether we can deal with it or not is another thing.

[41:13]

Yes. Thank you. I've only heard you say that, strictly speaking, we don't create karma in zazen. Yes. So, I'm trying to put this into something that's like chopping wood and carrying water or something impractical. So, the Tenzo prepares a meal. more, what have you. If the Tenzo accepts what the Abbot offers, it's like, and I correct, excuse me, like in Zazen, accepting whatever comes without judging it is not creating karma, then no karma will be created by just accepting the encouragement to add more salt or cook less and what have you, but the not ignoring karma

[42:17]

is if i attach oh he really liked my uh food or she didn't really like Is it good karma or is it bad karma? And the same thing goes for eating the meal. If I just accept the meal as it is, it may not be what I would do, what I would prefer, but if I just accept it as it is, then there's no karma. So here it is right in our bowl.

[43:21]

You don't need to do that. Just collect it good enough. Actually, the corn kernels are nice. This is my wanting to please and do something extra, when in fact actually plain and simple is like chopping wood and carrying water. There's nothing inherently wrong with adding corn kernels to polenta or adding extra ingredients to a soup. Yes. But it's kind of the attitude with which we do that, and if someone offers a tweaking of the recipe, then we just accept that. Yes. Yeah. We could go on and on, but I agree with you. What do we do off the cushion here, these everyday experiences we have with people, and how do we... Yes, how do we accept everything as it is?

[44:25]

That's it. That's what the teaching is always about. How do we accept everything as it is? It doesn't mean that you don't have to like it or not like it. You may not like it, but there it is, right? And so... I happen to not like the corn kernels in the polenta, but it's okay because I'm not the only person that eats it, right? Or likes it or doesn't like it. So it's not like, don't do that. It's just like, it's not something that I like, but I'll eat it anyway. And then sometimes I'll give up my desire, which colors my attitude. And I think, okay, Yeah, that's okay. I like it. Because I've given up my attitude. So we hang on to our attitude, which really creates our karma.

[45:28]

So what Katagiri Roshi said, you don't know how Americans, Americans don't know how to treat teachers. So would that be something like, the Tenzo, like, well, But, you know, criticize, take any little criticism, any little, well, go into a person and color their day. Any little, it doesn't have to be very big, just even a hint or, you know, we're so sensitive to any kind of correction or So it's so hard to do that. So some teachers will say, just do this, just do that, and forget it, you know? But if you're sensitive, you don't want to do that.

[46:31]

Don't bring people around. But, you know, it gets things done. It does get things done. Anyway, Peter. I want to raise the other side of this, which is that how does learning to accept things just as it is, how does that not devolve into a kind of passivity? Kind of passivity? Passivity. Where does accepting things just as it is, where does that meet you in that moment? That's a positive thing, not a passive thing. I actively accept. Yes, it's like, oh, OK. It's like, I accept. And then something else happens. It's like you're opening yourself. That's the positive side. If you just say, oh, OK, well, I'll shut my mouth.

[47:34]

But then there's, within that, the freedom to respond. Yes, the freedom to respond, yes. And the response is, you open yourself. Otherwise, you can't accept. That's not acceptance. It's acceptance when you drop everything and be there for it. There's nothing. You go back to zero and you don't have a complaint and you don't have reserves One time at Page Street, we were having dinner in the dining room, and Suzuki Roshi was there, Kanegiri Roshi was sitting next to him. And we were having aduki beans, which I don't like. I mean, I eat them, you know, but I can't say that I like them.

[48:37]

And there were a lot of them on my plate. And I said to Suzuki Roshi, I don't know if I can eat these, all of these. And he said, oh, that's OK. Katagiri will eat them. Katagiri. Well, wait a second. Did he like, did Katagiri like the zucchini? Japanese people all liked nuki beans. I don't know if they all liked them, but 99%. person who spent decades fighting for abortion rights. And the interviewer, who was a teacher, a writing teacher, said to her, you know, back in the 80s, I got really liberated.

[49:40]

I told my students that they could write essays about anything except abortion, because I couldn't handle it. And I said, how is it that you can deal with this issue for decades and, you know, just like it totally burned out. And it was like she said, similar to what I got was that she could hear the other side and rather than just get frazzled or turned off or whatever, she just, um, you know, either realized she was talking to someone who was addicted to their opinion, or she just had the statistics up both sleeves and said, well, okay, you think that the only people with having abortions are unmarried, you know, sluts or whatever, the fact is that 61% of all abortions are and things like that.

[50:42]

So I think that's like the most powerful kind of acceptance is where you can take on the most difficult, contentious issues and not put, it's like this additional spin. Not be attached to your bias. Where your bias, you're conquering somebody else's bias with your bias, but you have a, you're grounded. It was a wonderful cartoon in the Chronicles of Isleback, not too long ago, about how to stop abortions. And it showed three men with, what did they call those? Chastity belts. There's a phrase that really resonates for me around this theme that Maizumi Roshi would say of appreciate your life.

[51:59]

Yes. That there's something to the word, well those three words, that appreciate to me has a much warmer interrelational quality that I can actually feel compared to acceptance or accepting. And your life Even though, you know, it's on the personal, to have a your, is interesting, because the tendency, the egoistic tendency is to say, appreciate my life. But he's saying it to, you know, like, you say to me, appreciate your life. But still that phrase, instead of calling it appreciate my life, just lifts up that it's really about the warm heartedness And that's, because to me it's really important to touch the Nirvana piece of this, which is about the warmth between us, and that these words, compassion and all that, that they suddenly have in the liveness. That's good, yeah.

[53:02]

We always talk about that. Appreciate your life. On Monday's talk you said that It wasn't really a matter of extinguishing or eliminating all desire, so much as finding balance with the desire. Today the language is extinguishing all desire. Do you understand the difference? Oh yeah, because without desire you're nothing. And that's actually the Arhat. The Arhat does not want to return to the world. It's all based on rebirth. The whole thing is based on rebirth. The Arhat does not want to return to this world, the Saha world, called suffering world. And that's actually the purpose. So Shakyamuni's message is how to get out of suffering. Right? He said, that's all I teach, is how to get out of suffering. So the Arhat's practice was, in order to get out of suffering,

[54:09]

you don't enter into any worldly activities, they create it. Like no sex, which creates suffering. And then, they had stages of how you do that. And there's something about that that's not... Instead of eliminating your desires, we have to be able to practice in a way that includes desires without having them cause us karma. which creates suffering. Or, it's okay as long as you like it.

[55:16]

I remember that was a phrase that Suzuki Roshi once said. It's okay as long as you like it. So it's up to you. It's really up to you. It's not like we're telling you that you should do this and that. As long as you like that... to create the karma that causes you suffering and you're willing to accept the suffering, right? Then that's okay. As long as you like it. And we do. I'm telling you, we do. If we can't have the happiness, we take the suffering. And there's something wonderful about that, you know? Because we can wallow in our suffering. and it becomes an enjoyment. I just want to say that this whole idea of karma, desire, passion, nirvana, samsara, really long epic debate or this conversation that's been happening in India for thousands of years and it goes beyond Buddhism.

[56:30]

There's a lot of different religions in India that are dealing with this idea like how do we get off the wheel, you know? And I forget the name of the Jain saint or, yeah, that was contemporary of Shakyamuni. And his conclusion was that, Because there is no way, even for a realized person, to start creating karma in this life while we live it, if you can liberate yourself in such a way that you won't return to the wheel once you die, you should actually commit suicide. Well, some Buddhists did that. I just want to say that because I just want to just say that that this whole this this debate like there was this huge spectrum of opinions about what to do with karma like you can have all the way over here like you need to stop creating karma now right and all the way over here you have like it's okay to create karma as long as it's good or you know it's like this giant spectrum

[57:46]

That's right. So... Yes.

[57:48]

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