Good morning. It is my deep pleasure and honor to welcome today's speaker, Karen Sondheim. Karen is one of our Way Back people. She began practicing at BGC in 1976, when the center was located on Dwight Way. In 1996, she was lay ordained by Sojin Roshi. And her Dharma name is Nyu U Po Sho, which translates to gentle rain. Dharma Blossom. Keeping up with the sixes, in 2006, she was Kyusho, our head student at BCC. In 2010, she received her green rakasu, which is the symbol of lay entrustment from Sojin Roshi. Over the years, Karen has lectured here, taught various classes at many study groups, and held many practice positions. She's currently the person who schedules speakers for Saturdays.

[01:02]

I can't thank them enough. We're very lucky to have you. In her professional life, Karen is a longtime librarian. She's currently in charge of the Hornell LGBT Center at the San Francisco Public Library, the Civic Center. And she also there leads a weekly meditation group Karen is recently engaged to her longtime partner of some 16 years, Nancy Sue. Looking forward to that celebration. I asked Karen what her outside interests were, what she did for fun, and she said, I don't have any time for that. I'm too busy. But I happen to know that she loves to hike, having hiked with her. And she's a strong hiker. Hard to keep up with her. I would describe Karen as one of the most compassionate, down to earth, plain speaking, honest, thoughtful, caring, and full of humor persons I've ever met.

[02:12]

Please welcome Karen. I wasn't prepared for that introduction. Thank you, Jay. Today, after the talk, we're going to have a ceremony, and the ceremony celebrates Buddha's parinirvana, which is actually his physical death. So, I'm not going to say that much about it, except that thinking about death and dying, which is something that we all face, is an inspiration for me to talk about my two favorite topics in practice, suffering and faith. So I'll start with suffering, even though I was planning to talk more about faith. It's hard to talk about faith without talking about suffering.

[03:16]

Suffering is the Buddha's most fundamental teaching. His very first teaching after he experienced his awakening under the Bodhi tree after many years of practice, his first teaching was the Four Noble Truths. And the first truth is that in life there is suffering. It's not about dwelling on our woes and our pains and saying that life is bad. It's not about that at all. What it's really about is the inevitability of suffering. And suffering can be little things, like day-to-day changes in our lives to very big, devastating pain that we all experience. Also, at some point, through loss, aging, all sorts of things.

[04:19]

So, what the Buddha really taught was that suffering is something that we have to experience and accept. Now, I know that many of us came to this practice because we're trying to cope with suffering and very often we're trying to find a way out of it. I think that's natural, it's kind of the human way. We're often looking for fixes, cures, crutches. You know, we might be looking for a special diet, a special workout, something to guarantee that we're not gonna die young or we're not gonna suffer through old age. Also, often we're looking for certainty. and predictability. We want to know that we're going to be secure.

[05:25]

For example, at this moment, fortunately, I'm fortunate at this moment to be healthy. I don't have a serious illness that I'm aware of, but I would really like to know that that would go on for a long time, but I don't know that. and that lack of knowing causes suffering in my life. So a lot of our practice is in accepting things that we might not like, and while we have a lot of positive things happen, knowing that things are always in flux. Things are always changing. You know, when I came to practice, I really had this goal of being calm and fearless.

[06:30]

That's what I wanted to be. But then every time I sat down, you know, what did I see? Chaos and fear and anxiety. And then, of course, the question is, why do I keep going? Why do we keep going? So, in my practice, I wanted to confront fear. And then, at some point, around the early 90s, I was on a meditation retreat. It didn't happen to be a Zen retreat, but I actually had an experience of not having fear. And it was a very profound experience for me. But then, you know, that lasted a brief period and then probably within ten minutes, I don't know, the mind that I was more familiar with returned.

[07:45]

And then I was kind of mad about that. I thought I had some achievement, but there was just nothing to hold on to. I am aware, though, that I and many of the people in this room keep practicing for years and years, decades, and so I did want to talk about faith a bit. even though we don't talk about it quite as much, I find. I don't hear that word used, but a couple of things I'll say about it is that faith in our practice is really not about beliefs, and it's not about depending on some kind of external power to save us. You know, Buddhism is not a theistic religion, although

[08:49]

The Buddha never said anything against God or for God. So there was really no opinion here. But it's more about working with our own minds, our own tendencies to cling to things, to want to have certain things happen and when good things happen, to keep it. And that we want to avoid other things. We want to avoid certain feelings. You know, a lot of us don't like feeling, say, angry or depressed or frightened. And we don't want to lose what we have. But this practice is really about making peace with our minds. So I'd like to read a little bit of a poem that was written in the 6th century by a Chinese, one of our ancestors, Seng Tsang. He was the third ancestor, the third Chinese ancestor.

[09:53]

And this poem is called Faith in Mind. Sometimes it's translated into Trust in Mind. And it's a rather long poem, so I'm just picking a few verses to read. So, I'm going to be jumping around a little bit, but the supreme way is not difficult, if only you do not pick and choose. Neither love nor hate, and you will clearly understand. If you want it to appear, be neither for or against, for and against opposing each other, this is the mind's disease. There's no need to seek the real, just extinguish your views. Do not abide in dualistic views. Take care not to seek after them.

[10:55]

As soon as there is right and wrong, the mind is scattered and lost. It is not good to weary the spirit. Why alternate between aversion and affection? If you wish to enter the one vehicle, Do not be repelled by the sense realm. Faith and mind are not two. Non-duality is faith in mind. Sometimes that word non-duality can seem kind of mystical. You know, I don't like to say it because it sounds kind of intellectual. But what I will say is that, I'll say something about what duality is, okay?

[11:56]

Because mostly we're involved in duality. And that is when we're thinking that this is the right way to be or this is the wrong way to be. Or this is nirvana and this is just ordinary suffering, some sorrow. Wisdom and ignorance. Craving this and not that. What I love about Zazen is that is the time when we can really practice non-duality because we drop our opinions, our crusades, our goals. And in Zazen all thoughts are equal.

[13:01]

I really appreciated this because one of the biggest obstacles I've had in my practice was obsessive thinking and I thought, All I need to do is stop thinking, and then everything's going to be fine. And that has hardly ever happened. It actually has happened a few times, and it's been very profound. However, then the mind starts thinking again. And then, of course, I would be evaluating. Well, this is a nice thought. You know, maybe I've progressed on the path because I'm feeling kinder now, in this moment. kind towards this person who I used to not like. So there's this evaluation going on of what's in our minds. But actually, in Zazen, we're penetrating that, or actually we're disengaging from that narrative, that story that's always going on, that story about me.

[14:08]

You know, sometimes it's a great story and sometimes it's a sob story. But actually, sometimes there's this misconception that what we're really trying to experience is nothingness. So when we keep coming back to the breath and we're letting go of those thinking patterns, it's not nothingness. It's not about nothingness, it's about a totality. The mind is alive. Now this book, I actually love, this is a commentary on Faith and Mind, and it's by a Chinese master named Shen Yan, who actually passed away fairly recently.

[15:21]

But it's a great book, it's actually a retreat, a bunch of talks he gave going through the verses of this poem. He has a couple of really good quotes. One is, if the mind can't settle, don't be resentful. And don't be afraid of difficulties. Sometimes I think, you know, we're afraid to let go of our opinions because, you know, who am I without my opinions? And perhaps there's a fear that one might do something terrible if we weren't controlling ourselves all the time. I remember there's a writer, a Buddhist writer named Rita Gross.

[16:28]

I don't know if you've heard of her. She wrote this book called Buddhism After Patriarchy. And she wrote a lot of feminist books, and she was kind of well-known. You know, in the earlier days of feminism, she was very outspoken and quite volatile and opinionated, and spent a fair amount of time yelling at people. And that was kind of common in a lot of political movements, I think, at the time. Not just feminism, but she got this reputation, and people didn't want to really deal with her. But then she practiced, she still practices as far as I know, but one thing she said later in her life was, once I stopped being angry, people started listening to me. And it wasn't her viewpoint that really changed, I mean, she still had the same ideals, but it's more about how the mind is working.

[17:28]

Giving up our views doesn't mean that we don't practice certain ways that are important for the benefit of all people. Are there any I was struck by your comment at the very beginning of your talk about returning to the familiar. It sounds like you had a very profound experience and were relieved of your suffering for a bit of time and that was unfathomable.

[18:30]

benevolence and positive things is sort of a counter-intuitive moment. And when you look back at that moment in your practice or moments when you've had that release, what is it about that familiar unfamiliar oscillation? That's a really good point. I think we do that all the time. The familiar, even though it's often negative, is more dependable. In a lot of ways, we prefer dependability and certainty to happiness and uncertainty. I mean, there's a whole biological theory about that, you know, that we came from reptiles, you know, we have a reptilian brain that's always on the alert for protection, that wants to look for threats out there, but actually, I think it's part of our nature to prefer something we know to something we don't know.

[20:01]

It reminds me of that famous koan, it's an old koan that many of you have probably heard, where a student asks his teacher, where are you going? And the teacher says, I don't know. And the student says, well, What do you mean you're going and you don't know where you're going? And the teacher says, not knowing is the most intimate. What you just said reminded me of an episode almost 20 years ago, when I was intensely suffering about Matt.

[21:03]

It was about the beginning of a relationship, which has fortunately continued. But she had gone up to Oregon because her father had died. I was in a relatively vulnerable situation And of course, the death of your last parent is huge. And communication was difficult. And I kept obsessing over, is this really going to be a relationship? Or is she just going to stay there? No, I was intensely suffering about this. And I was writing in a journal. And I remember writing, thinking, Why would I choose to suffer? Because I realized that's what I was doing. I mean, I didn't have to believe any of these things because it was one of those, who knows what's going to happen, situations.

[22:13]

And I thought a great deal about that. And, um... Well, do you think... Suffering, pardon? Do you think that it was because it was more familiar? Yes, absolutely, because the pain, if it's familiar pain, can be more consoling in a way than the unknown, and also, depending on, you know, and I reflected on other situations in my life, that, of course, if you're really suffering, then nobody's going to expect much of you, because How could they when you're suffering so much? I can completely sympathize with that. I mean, it's very hard. I mean, you can realize that, and it doesn't make it all go away. But it sure is a big first step. And then what is the real fear?

[23:15]

Well, obviously, in my case, it was fear of being alone again, which I never, which only went away when I realized that the connection had to be with the whole and not with another person, which is what practice did to me. But I remember that idea about why would you choose to suffer? Well, our minds have these very intense habits. And really, you know, Zazen is a great way to unlock ourselves from some of those, you know, circular patterns we get ourselves in. And actually, when I had that experience, that very brief experience of not having fear, it turned out it really scared me. And it's kind of a joke to say that, but it was a difference between kind of habitual fear, that chronic fear that you're talking about,

[24:19]

compared to not knowing where really a vast amount of space opened up inside me and outside and I saw and felt everything much more deeply and of course I had to shut that down a bit eventually. I almost craved my own former ideas and patterns, because they did offer some comfort. However, that experience has had a lot to do with my faith in practice, that there is so much more than just this habitual way that we see things, and that our We're capable of really tolerating and being open to a lot more than we are.

[25:26]

A couple people have their hands up. Susan? Yeah, thank you. Earlier you said that you can't talk about faith without talking also about suffering. But you just did a really good job of talking about faith and not talking about suffering. Well, I never would want to say also that there's not a lot of joy in life. The problem is we worry about it going away. That's where the suffering comes in. loss to love. Yeah, speaking of which, I'm kind of laughing internally because I first met Rita Gross in New York City as a co-leading in Compassionate and Nonviolent Communication.

[26:29]

And I knew nothing of her past until we talked. And both those women actually, what was so powerful about that workshop is that they fully engaged anger as an enlivening energy, and then spoke about it in terms of how to, this theme of what is engaged Buddhism? What is spiritual activism, et cetera? What is it to show up? And I love the way you, as I heard you frame this, is that we don't have to give up our views, so to speak, We don't have to give up our way, perhaps, of expressing. And so I'm just thinking of the final teachings of the Buddha to be a lamp unto oneself and also the teaching on impermanence. And I'm just wondering, he also taught about, to my understanding, the distinction between

[27:36]

say the energy of anger and the intentionality of ill will. And so one of the things that I find myself often practicing with, and it's always in relationship, is how to express and be completely alive in that energy that's a human experience and at the same time What is the nature of ill will? Well, are you outside of question? Yeah, I was just thinking about your experience, especially around the fear thing, that there are these two experiences of fear. One is this opening to what I would call the intimacy of relationship, and that not knowing koan. And the whole collection of koans is so filled with 30 blows and anger and anger, I mean, on the surface. So I'm just wondering, I don't know, what your pointer would be on how to work with that energy when this sort of anger comes up, and not have it spin into ill will.

[28:51]

Well, ill will is a form of hate. And that's something that we look at carefully here. You know, when we practice, we usually are looking at either grasping or hating. So I would look at the bigger picture. I'm trying to think of an example, but one may feel a certain ill will towards another person, but expressing that to them in that way would not be helpful. one would think one would have to look at one's own motivation, whether it's a personal thing or for the greater good, but I would train the mind away from ill will.

[29:55]

I'm trying to think of how to say this better. Yes. Hi. Thank you for your talk. And what I'm thinking is you have spoken to us a number of times here about your, if I may say so, your experiences in the library. And I'm sure you have a number of, there are a number of instances when anger has arisen as you dealt with some of the people who come through the library. Thank you. I mean, you know, I bow to your wisdom and your passion. Well, I really appreciate, Rondi, you bringing up the fact that I deal with ill will all the time. I'm sitting here and feeling so good looking at all of you, I just couldn't quite come up with an example. Actually, that is true. I mean, where I work, I have people who, you know,

[31:04]

spit at me and yell. There's a lot of verbal abuse and stuff. What I personally do with that is I keep the attention, I try to keep the attention on myself rather than the other person who I may want to strangle at that time. I kind of do sort of an observation, a personal observation of my reaction, so that I'm very aware of my reaction, and I'm also aware that I'm not going to take anything. There are a lot of things that people do that are not okay, and I will voice that. So it's not like turning the other cheek. But at the same time, in those particular situations, I am calm and firm.

[32:08]

I don't get real emotional about it. But that's a situation where I have to set a boundary. Yes, Kate? I was thinking about this question as you were talking and reflecting that I think that when I get angry with someone, more someone who is close to me, it's in part a desire not to feel the hurt that that has brought. And if I am angry with the other person and it is their fault, then I don't have to, or it's an attempt not to feel the pain that I've been taught. I think that's a really good point too. And that's part of the whole observation, hopefully we have enough psychological insight to notice that, and to be able to stand it.

[33:12]

You know, a lot of faith, I think, involves being able to stand what comes up in the mind, and sometimes when hurt comes up, we feel hurt by somebody else, you know, we want to throw that away by being angry or self-righteous or numb or whatever, but just to be there with them. So thank you for that. Oh, hi. Hi. Also in this discussion of anger or ill will, I've seen in myself at least that the anger is just sort of part of a larger it drive and integrity and determination and these things that we call positive along with the thing we call negative.

[34:14]

And there's not really any separating all these labels attached to it. So as you were saying, if you can kind of accepted and see what's going on. It becomes maybe something that's not as threatening. Well I think that's an important point and it goes back to what we were talking about with Rita Gross who had a lot of important things to say but didn't say them in a way that people could relate, but you could say the same things. And anger has this very precise mental quality, where you can often see things, sometimes you can see things quite clearly. And that can be used in a very positive way. Mary?

[35:14]

That ties in with what I was thinking about in my work doing mediation. I'm often caught up in other people's anger and also my anger in reaction to what's going on in the room. So I've done a lot of work with what anger feels like. So the way I think of it is that anger is like a fire alarm. It's the bell. And it's important because it gives you information that there's something wrong. And often what's wrong is if there's a split or a separation or a rift in the relationship. There's a tear in the relationship of some kind that needs attention. But the alarm doesn't put the fire out. And you actually have to step back and listen to the alarm and figure out what it is that needs to be done about whatever it is that the anger is pointing toward. It's a kind of two-step process.

[36:15]

My final comment about that is that's a lot of work. It's exhausting. It is. Thank you. Hi, Geri. I was thinking about what you said about how do we have faith when we have these habits of mind that are disturbing and so forth, and yet we come back over and over again. But I do think that two things come to mind. One is when you make an effort in practice, when you make an effort in zazen, to actually let go and to actually just focus on your breath. You do notice that when you start off, it can happen, not infrequently, but when you start off preoccupied or reactive, that suddenly the bell rings and you're not that way. That's not happening anymore. So I think we do experience the fact that our sitting practice actually changes a lot.

[37:25]

But we experience the impermanence of our feelings. We experience the impermanence of ill will and whatever the emotions are that come up. And so once we can experience the impermanence, then gee, it's a different world. Even if it's just a hair. Even if the pain in your leg goes away for two seconds, that's better than not. And we actually see that. And the other way, for me, is just looking at other people around me who practice. You see people who have practiced for a long time, and you just kind of think, wow. No. Maybe could I be like that? So that was always inspiring to me, work practice in the sangha, change, and even though I don't aim for it, I just notice how they are, and I think, there must be something in this.

[38:27]

Is it time to stop? Okay, I don't know, I don't have a watch on, but I think it is time, so thank you very much for listening and sharing today.

[38:46]

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