have internalized it in their own life. Nevertheless, the other integration or internalization would have to be of a community. And as Brother James was saying, I think that a lot of people come to the monastery to join but they've got, they bring with them a variety of devotional practices and almost really no concept at all of these ideas. And how do they get this into a whole thing, or even into new people that have come and so on and so forth? The first point was, what was it? The whole, what you gave this morning. for normal people. I don't want to say rich. It's strange, I think. A lot of people understand the words, but not the sense.

[01:02]

I mean, you know, the real concept is a living way. So, you are right. It took a year. It took a church, even, let's say, to take the Bible from 1910 to, you know, 1965. to even be grasped, and a lot of the people still have the notion of liturgy is lost on most people. It's an absolutely long spit. But anyway, how do we, what do we help get people into this? I would agree with you that for the most of our Christian people, these ideas are too high. But nevertheless, I would say they are only the doctrine of our master. Normally, the Christians do not know it. The normal Christian of every day knows some pious points. Go to the mass on Sunday,

[02:02]

perhaps also Friday, and once the Holy Communion, and kill not nobody. And then I would say again, for a people who has seen our Lord, taken contact with him at once, normal people, all the people I see here in your church, these lay people. I have the impression they know very well what they must do. They are ready to do it. They are ready to live also in the middle of the world according to the principle of our Lord, praying, actively participating, and trying to continue this wonderful richness of divine life in the daily duty and daily life and daily death and so on. I am not very pessimistic at this point. These people at least, but there are 100,000 in New York City, in every city.

[03:06]

If at least the priests and the teachers would be convinced about this reality and insist in every Sunday sermon, in every meeting, that it's not enough to make some formal realizations. It is necessary to be convinced internally and so far as possible to take real contact with our Lord in knowledge of Holy Scripture. But who does know it? Who does read the Gospel of the people outside? The man who does not do it will not lose eternal life will not be condemned to the hell by the mercy of God. If I touch only the last garment of this vestment, I shall be healed.

[04:14]

Okay, that's enough. But the ideal is that we are doing it really, knowing the gospel, realizing the gospel, that we are celebrating liturgy, not only assistant as they are doing it in the last benches of the church near to the door, you call this in German, a Kessel, no, a Weihwasser Kessel company, company of the the blessed water in the beginning of the church, water company, water company. Oh, that's not enough. Nevertheless, if they are doing it really, if a sincere act of faith is enough for them for their eternal life, but to be witness, nothing. I would say if the entire people would follow this vision of liturgy, according to a number of five and a ten in the constitution it out if you know what the scottish area within the experimental if the pascal mister he could be expressed in the uh... vitally in the life in the face of the output changed and all the problems of nuclear war and would not exist that's where i think we don't we do not do it so for in hope against hope you must continue to preach to to to speak to the people that they are doing it really somebody of you said told me

[05:36]

It is not custom in the Catholic family of the United States to pray together in the morning. I cannot judge about it. In Germany, it will be the same. But our grandfathers, surely they are praying every morning together, the old generations. And we now must try to get it again. It is not enough to pray personally in my heart. I must pray with my parents, with my children, at least for one minute. every morning, every night. According to the new liturgy, where it is said in the liturgical constitution, Horae Cardinalis, the cardinal hours are only two, morning prayer and evening prayer. All the others are not so much important. Perhaps the reading of the Holy Scripture, Horae Lectionis. And in a great liberty, the faithful in the world must do the same. And we, as priests and as monks, must insist that they are doing it really. And I know some young couples.

[06:38]

It's a wonderful ideal, a young man with his girl, with his bride, and trying to do that together. From the first beginning on, but who is doing so? Not many. If they could do so all, then all the problems were more or less resolved. That's my argument. And the second point... For people who join the monastery... Oh, your op-lates. Your op-lates. For these people. I have to get rid of everything I brought here. And he has to help me to do that. Therefore, I didn't understand your problem. The people who come to become monks here, they don't know nothing about it? I don't believe this. Many candidates will come to the monastery. maybe from a parish life and a family life in which they practice devotional Catholicism, in which their Catholicism has been maybe one in which their vocation has received impetus, their vocation has received what has made them apply to coming to the monastery, has been wrapped up in

[07:53]

and kind of spirituality which the new liturgical changes has kind of pushed to the side. When this candidate comes into the monastery and you have this subjective type of piety how do you get this devotional oriented candidate to come in as the objective? I would say this piety of hearts which is there, we must retain it. It's the same piety with which these good people have said Rosaline, we are coaches, sacred heart devotions and so on and so on and so on. It's the same piety, it's the same vigorous [...] and come to every hour in the morning and uh... six and i think they've been brought to the peace not going to play the role of them but you know you have time to say six and uh... and hold on to the leaders in the morning and totally or would not say so we have a game lunch to say rosalie not so many in the church we don't need our policy to fifty fifty years ago to be abolished but if you go

[09:17]

from here to Elmira, alone. Why not say, without the things in the hand, but by heart, Ave Maria, Ave Maria, why not? In Jesus' prayer, oh no, we do it, we like it. But all these forms are only continuation of the fundamental objective forms. of psalms in the divine office, of the Eucharistic celebration, with the continuation of the highest form of prayer, which is the Eucharistic prayer, the hymn of thanksgiving. It is right and good to give your thanks. And sing, holy, holy, holy, and then continuing, and the memory of the death and the resurrection of our Lord. Here is the most important thing. learn it. But with the same piety you had before you came. But I think normally a young man who is chosen this type of monastic life knows already this orientation.

[10:21]

Only objective piety is not a cold piety. It's my warmest, personal, subjective realization of this fundamental objective values given to us by the Church, by the Gospel, by our Lord Himself. It is very nice to speak with our Lord Jesus Christ. We say in German, der liebe Heiland. How do you say in English for that? The dear Saviour. Have you such a word in English? The people. The sweet Jesus. No, no, no, no. We speak to our Lord curious. Jesus, our friend, yes, our Baba is true, but he became curious. He, according to the second chapter to the Philippians, did not believe his divinity as Arab, but he humiliated himself, become man like we, obedient unto the death, of course, and therefore he was exalted to the glory of heaven that every must kneel down and glorify Jesus is the Lord.

[11:39]

and we can participate in his lordship, in his glorification. And therefore I would say that these young people who come must learn to pray with the apostle in the third chapter to the Ephesians, that God the Father may give us, according to the riches of his glory, dynamically be strengthened by his spirit in our internal man, our virtuto coro arabi per spiritum egos interiorum hominem, dynamically. Not in a sweet way, but in a powerful way. But I am answering with all my love, therefore, in agape, as Father Lama just said it always, in agape. In agape, which also is expressed in a very kind way, in which we are greeting each another, in which we are bearing in patience our difficulties. Because it's very easy to speak about love, but to do it is very much difficult.

[12:45]

and so on, more or less, more or less. Here is a problem, you are right, but therefore all the piety we had as children, and the warmness, the substantive warmth, The volume of this Bible, we must retain it, but then open us to the greater forms of these objective elements. Psalms, Gospel, Epistle of St. Paul. Who of the faithful of these friends of the sweet Jesus are reading the Epistle of St. Paul? Nevertheless, here is the greatness of God. And then perhaps we must be right. Some of the people read the Holy Scripture. of good old women, more than we believe. Can I change the nature of the question a bit? It seems to me that in this particular time and country, a large number of people who come to monasteries are not only going to be influenced by traditional old Catholic piety, they're going to be influenced by a great number of

[13:59]

a great number of currents, not all of them necessarily Christian, like transcendental meditation... It's true, it's true, yes, yes, you are right. Therefore, these people in a certain way prepare, they have, what do you say, in English, cities. this is the first thing. They are first to these greater forms of spirituality. And they find them sometimes in these texts of all these people who have been here in the Symposium of the Outward of Silence. All these wonderful young American boys which are following the Swami's, this famous doctor. I don't want to. Okay. But he saved them from drunkenness, from other drugs, and so on. And then they came here and said, no, you are singing.

[15:05]

Psalms, Gospel, and the simplicity and the powerful greatness of that, and also your silence. And finally they said that you are ready to realize it in everyday life. Not only for some days, for a meeting, a weekend, but do it, do it, do it. But we are far still from perfection on that. I have a question which is much for us, but for Burkhardt, when we get people like, you know, bring up, I think it's Steve Wilden, who's here way back in the early 70s, a young man who was here back in the early 70s, He was very interested in the monastic life, but eventually became a Buddhist priest in California. For myself, when I came only two years ago, I was highly interested in Centering Prayer. I thought doing Centering Prayer a day was absolutely essential. For a variety of reasons, I reduced my estimation of it. when we get many more people like that, and we're going to get people who come saying I want to look at the liturgical light in the division of Odom, Chazal, Merilach, and the second Vatican Council, we're going to get many more who have heard of Slovenia than have heard of those three.

[16:23]

When we get people like that, what's our attitude toward them? These people would say here to this, to this doctrine, or not? Oh, I'm saying they would never have heard of it. They never heard about it, yes. I would say that it's not doctrine of Otto Castle, not doctrine of Maria Lange, it's a doctrine of the gospel. And it would be necessary to speak to these young people, and this young man who came has been here some days, one day perhaps. For quite a summer. For an entire summer. And nevertheless he became a Buddhist priest. He wasn't a Catholic from the beginning. No, he wasn't a Catholic. He was not a Catholic. Ah, sure. Yes, not really. Yes, seeing is, you know, it's difficult, difficult, difficult. He was a Christian, yeah, and he took off with the girl that was living with another guy down at the river, you know, things like that. So there was a certain kind of... but I don't think he had an ocean of God as you were really involved in your life.

[17:28]

He was not Christian, not Catholic. He has never been a real Christian. And he was seeking, and it may be that now he is finding his way to God. You cannot judge about him. But it's no way our way. He basically was avoiding the draft. He was avoiding to? The draft. The draft of the Vietnam War. So he was... Against the war. The Vietnam War was on at the time. He wanted to stay here so that the draft board wouldn't bother him. They thought that he was pursuing a religious career. So, to avoid a war. There was an ulterior motive. I would say... I think that he should be able to welcome and accept and not be threatened by these others, but that the dynamism of a thing like this should be able to There is also evidently a question of grace of God.

[18:32]

Perhaps he had not the grace to do it. And also, if he came only in the first moment to avoid the necessity to go as a soldier in the war, All these people who are against the war because they fear to face the death are not good. They must fear to kill another. But we ourselves must be ready to share in the passion of our Lord, to die with Him. Yeah, I would say, in a certain way, finally, we come always to the same piety as our grandfathers had it. Beard across. But because of God. Because it's the fountain of life. And our grandfathers have seen it, too. Many of these old-fashioned people, when they must suffer a death, their good mothers,

[19:35]

had faith. They could say, the Lord has given us, the Lord has taken it, the name of the Lord may be blessed. They could say this reality better than we sometimes. I think in some ways, let's say the clear and the forceful and the good and the powerful way of the devotion of the house, I think, if it was strong and fair like that, I think it wouldn't do a lot, but I think out of this, it's kind of muted. It's a kind of? Subdued. Or, well, muted is the word I use, but it makes me want to be here. In low key. It's not strong. For example, people would say of the place that there are too many spiritualities here.

[20:40]

Here? Where here? Here, Mount Savior. Too many spiritualities? I think at one time that was true. What do you mean with that? Well, the kind of charismatic spirituality with, you know, with all her Jesus and you had a kind of aesthetic piety which was, you know, make it, you know, through fasting and severity and you had... Did you have that here? Yeah, with all these currents, yeah. But not as the doctrine of the house. Somebody did it. The doctrine of the house hasn't been really strong and hasn't been as strong and as clear as lived by all the people. I remember the difficulties of the charismatic movement, and so on. I would say to pray as the charismatic group has done it is marvelous, but as a second form subordinated to these objective forms here. I remember in 1974, in the year when Father Ansgar made his solemn profession, all his friends came.

[21:46]

And we were beginning in the morning at four o'clock or half past four with the vigils. At seven o'clock we were meeting after Lourdes, I think, for Jesus prayer, for an entire hour, without being tired, in a very high level, helped by all these people coming from the Biblical Institute in Rome. thing that we were talking about at the noon reading, actually, that the program had been wrong. And then at ten o'clock or nine o'clock, the high mass, the entire morning, from four to twelve praying, we had not been tired. And all these young people, boys and girls, and it was marvelous, marvelous. But all that only, only as a second element to realize what we are doing in the highest point of our spiritual life. Therefore, in the sacred action of liturgy, according to the Council, The most eminent meaning is a sacred action, and the efficacy of this sacred action cannot be surpassed by no other action.

[22:52]

Other actions are only realization. So, or so, or so, sometimes in the patience to stay in the kitchen, sometimes to be occupied with sheep, and sometimes to study. It doesn't matter. But first of all, Eucharistic sacrifice, the highest reality, then the hours, and then our reading. Perhaps also sometimes in Eucharistic Jesus prayer. I'm not very convinced. I remember the critique of this lady of one of our guest houses. the Austrian, where was it? St. Gertrude's House. And she said to me, that is, said, wish only to show themselves. That is the danger of the Jesus Prayer. It's right to show themselves. Our prayer in the choir is quite

[23:56]

objective. You don't not show your movement in the heart. Nevertheless, you must stay and pray. It's difficult for me to explain. It's more sober. This morning I could speak to the guests about this wonderful word of the old hymns of St. Ambrose in the Old Monday liturgy. Let us drink the sober drunkenness of the Holy Spirit. taken by this enormous power of the son of Nebularus, it's nearly, you cannot see it. We are, in a certain chastity, we are taking it in our heart. Not everyone can, must see it explicitly, dear Jesus.

[24:59]

A lot of people, young people, my generation, you know, are looking for something, you know, they'll see our liturgy or something, they want something to happen, you know, they want to be acted upon. Okay, okay, okay, yeah, singing, singing. Well, they want an experience. They want an experience. Okay, yes. And then you must have also the gift of the discernment of the spirits. If it is really the ecstasy of the spirits or only some, some, some, what are you saying, some, some, some exhortation. I would say, according to the doctrine of our monastic tradition, let us wait for the moment when the Holy Spirit himself gives us this experience, to have it immediately.

[26:08]

These young people come, wish to stay together with trumpets and instruments. They are really ecstatic. excited. It's not the moment of the spirit. It's some human excitation. That's make-believe. Make-believe. Pretend that you are... In a certain way, we wish to experiment, to experiment this reality, to feel it. but in faith and in the soberness, so that we are convinced and so that we are doing it. But also it really does happen in one's heart, filled with joy and dancing in that way, and tears and all that. If you are able to be moved until tears after the divine office, after the Eucharistic sacrifice, okay, but you must not show it immediately to others.

[27:19]

But nevertheless, your external behavior must be a witness to the other people, how you are staying there. in the present of the majesty of God, the people which are seeing you, and I think that is the experience of the faithful from outside, in all the monasteries we have, if they see such a choir of monks staying there in reverence, singing, bowing, very well doing it, Here is digital state, the finger of God. Also, you perhaps stay there with difficulty and you are tired. Nevertheless, you are persevering. And here is perseverance. Also, you are tired. That is also an experience of God. We are doing it because we are believing in Him, we are trusting in Him.

[28:24]

He will not leave us and so on. Therefore, you are right, yes, experience. That was also the sentence of all these young people in the symposium, Word of Silence. These young American people became Buddhists, became Indians from the Far East, because they wished to feel God. Yes, we can eat him, we can drink him. And sometimes we feel him in our brotherly love, but always in his sobriety. Waiting for, I would say, with normal Catholic doctrine of contemplation, if we try to get this experiment of God by our human activity, contemplatio acquisita there is a talent of man contemplatio infusa we must wait until God gives us this wonderful consolation to be touched by his presence nevertheless we are persevering doing our duty in this objective form of the piety of the church

[29:49]

Also, we don't feel it, because we don't do it to feel it, but we do it to find God. Father, do you think if a person prays this time, goes to the liturgy without having any faith, but doing it religiously every day... Without faith? Without faith. go to Mass, pray the Psalms, can they become believers? It depends on their intention. If somebody is doing it without faith, how can he do it really? But if he has the intention to do it really because God has said it, then he has faith. at least the initium fidei, the beginning of faith. But again, without faith you could not please to God. Your work is without any fruit.

[30:52]

I have some experience of somebody. I am talking from my own experience. You did do it. if it wasn't for transcendental meditation. But why did you not remain in transcendental meditation? Because you have seen it is not enough. It wasn't enough. Okay, it wasn't enough. And you have done it also in a good intention. In the intention to find God. No. Why did you do it? Because I want to What did you want to see? Divinity. The reality of being. Here is the initium, the beginning of faith. Otherwise, being of faith, you have done it in the intention to do your duty, to find the mystery of human existence.

[32:19]

You have done it not without grace, and the grace had conducted you through these possibilities to the real experience, the faith. Without faith, all these methods are splendid, can help in a certain way, but Without faith, not for God. But nevertheless, who is doing it? And all these Americans, Indian and Islamic and Buddhist mystics have in a certain way this idea. They lost every religious Christian faith. They were lost drinking and using drugs. And they tried to come out. And Dr. Watt, or what was his name, tried to help them, also with a good intention. And they came here because they have seen Christianity has some real values. And they have been all excited.

[33:21]

You remember this morning when we were waiting for the sun. And then we were celebrating the mass with a bunny car. And she opened the door, the air could enter. Marvelous. And we have been touched by, I would say here, it was a Christian celebration, the faith where we were trying to express it also in human forms according to these methods. But the fundament has been our faith. Wasn't his liturgy a para-liturgy? He actually didn't consecrate. Oh, I was very much criticizing him. I was in no way agreeing. He didn't consecrate the Holy Land. Oh, yes, he did. Oh, yes, he did. He did. No, only he did too much, and he was using too many elements which are not allowed to consecrate. Did you stick your hands in the fire? No, it wasn't necessary to do so. I didn't do it, but I mean, some people, they brought the ball of fire on.

[34:24]

Only if the fire was seen and to warm our hands, but not to... I wouldn't stick my hands in the fire. It was a little bit dangerous. I was not agreeing with him. I could say only in that time in my critique, also Ritten's critique, he did it with reverence, he did it knowing certain limits, but he did not do it well. His trumpet was not addressed to God, but to the people. Also, some technical mistakes, yes. And then also, the communion, it was so strange that the Muslim has given me the divine host, breaking it and giving it to me. He was taking it on its head. What about his liturgy? Was he also present here? Yes, he was directly in the liturgy. St. John Chrysostom. Ah, so yes, the Greek war has been better, yes.

[35:27]

And so far as I remember, in a certain location, only the Greek monk And I was protesting against some terrible heresy. I don't remember anyway what it was, but it was a marvelous experience. Oh, no, no, no, no. A glory. And you have seen, perhaps, that I have given. It was a miracle, too, that a small monastery of 20 monks was able to assemble 200 peoples for a week without destroying the life of the monastery. I don't know. It was for both the community and for these people. It was an extraordinary thing. Unforgettable. Unforgettable. How about the two rabbis? The rabbis too, yes. Wonderful people, yes. Believing in a certain way. So, let us continue in faith.

[36:32]

using sometimes also these methods, but not Christian methods, only as technical means to help us in the realization of our real Christian tradition. Here is the most important point. And obeying to the church. I was against Panica because he did not obey. He created a liturgy which was not the liturgy of the church, but made by him. He could do it, but he's not allowed to do so. And it's better to be humbly obedient to the church than trying to fulfill it with eternal lies.

[37:07]

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