As you all know, I guess, there was some question of our being able to keep Green Gulch Farm and it looks like we're going to be able to keep it. Luckily, the government has decided in Zen Center's favor for us to keep the farm. There's many good reasons why we should keep it and it was a matter of getting the people involved to listen to what we have, why it makes sense for us to keep it and luckily Zen Center has lots of friends and people were phoning from all over the United States to Washington saying, don't you take that farm away from Zen Center.

[01:04]

So somehow it worked. In fact, they began to feel we were trying to annex California or something because so many people were phoning. The people in the Department of Interior told me somebody would stop them in the elevator and someone else would stop them in the hall and somebody would call them. But it made sense to them that we can take care of it in a way which would be in addition to the recreation area. So the Secretary of the Interior himself, before the Senate subcommittee, testified for Zen Center to keep the farm. Seeing the farm makes me think of when Zen Center first started there were so few people

[02:23]

practicing at first and we didn't know quite why we were doing it, but anyway we kept doing it and it was never clear whether Tsukiyoshi was going back to Japan or not and it wasn't clear whether anyone would become a priest or whether any practice would exist after a year or so or how long each one of us would be involved. And there isn't much given us to make sense of practice. Tsukiyoshi used to say the important part of Zen Center is not the Zen part but the center part, to find our center, to find some center in our life and in our activity.

[03:30]

So now we have three centers, a farm center and a city center and a mountain center and somehow they all come together I think as allowing students who come to Zen Center for various lengths of time to continue their practice. And hopefully they'll all work together so in one unit, I don't think Zen Center wants to have lots of places all over the various parts of the country. Maybe in a simplified way, Tassajara will be our place of concentration or retreat

[04:43]

and the farm and the city will be our places of some expression of our practice. But again, Suzuki Roshi used to say our motto, Zen Center's motto was to practice with people. So he didn't want Zen Center to be just for priests or to priests to be just priests, laymen maybe to be just laymen, but he wanted everybody to be able to come to Zen Center and practice. So we end up that way, having some kind of community. Maybe eventually Zen Center will be part of a kind of center of a large community which is more or less part of Zen Center. Maybe there'll be various people, there'll be various farms or other meditation centers

[05:48]

and branches of the work company. Zen Center itself should be fairly small. But the side of our practice, which is a community, shouldn't distract us from that part of our, from the focus of our practice, which is Zazen. And what we want to do is to practice with others, to practice with other people. So whatever you do in your life, I think what Suzuki Roshi would have wanted is that you practice Zazen with other people in whatever kind of circumstance, not just sitting Zazen but a sense of practice we can call Zazen, which you carry wherever you are.

[06:54]

So our life here in the farm in San Francisco and Tassajara, anyone can come and join our practice, particularly here in the city, less so at the farm and Tassajara. And then when we leave Zen Center, we should be, or however it goes, we should practice with other people. So we need some kind of place where we can focus on our practice. So at the farm and here in the city and at Tassajara especially, we should create the kind of space where we can focus on practice. We talk about, you know, big mind, sometimes we use phrases, I don't know what the words

[08:35]

are in Japanese, like Roshin, I think is one, anyway there are three minds that are talked about and Suzuki Roshi has spoken of them in each time he's given a funeral ceremony talk of big mind and parental mind and joyful mind. And big mind, of course, we've talked about a lot, and you more or less know what big mind means. And parental mind means that, in a way it means that you recognize everything you see as yourself or as your parents or as your source. And joyful mind is to find your own space in parental mind or in everything.

[09:44]

But what good does it do to have this kind of idea? We get, if Zazen practice or Zen practice, you know, if we ask the question, what is have to answer everything we encounter. Whatever you encounter in your life is Buddhist practice. And if that's so, then why, you know, have any idea or any place like Zen Center? But without some center or without, if you're, you know, not able to meet each situation

[10:50]

clearly, so the situation is clear, as I said, and you're clear, then you're not encountering each thing, you know. So, actually, when most of us have a lot of ideas about things, even our ideas of freedom or being outside or, you know, whatever idea we have, the way we want things to be, the way we feel comfortable with things, usually keep us moving away from what makes us uncomfortable and toward what makes us comfortable. That kind of idea is not what we mean by practice, not, we talk about the realm of non-obstruction and how do you enter in to your activity in your life so there are no obstructions, no

[11:55]

sense of obstructions. Well, there are various ways to, your mind, you know, it's pretty hard to be free of the assumptions and ideas built into your mind since you are trying to be free usually with your mind, so your mind can't grasp your mind. So we plant certain kinds of ideas, you know, like joyful mind or parental mind, big mind, which makes you notice your mind and makes you notice the possibilities of being joyful or being free.

[12:57]

Usually, we don't, even certain possibilities aren't there for us, you know, so to sort of free you up, you know, free your mind up, certain ideas are planted, you know. And then, you know, you work with those ideas like do they make sense, are they true or why are they there? Maybe they give you some confidence. The most important idea about the mind probably is, in Buddhist practice, is that everything is mind. So, you know, what can that mean, everything is mind, you know, is this mind? Well, once you really encounter that idea, everything is mind, usually I'd say it will take you one or two years to think through the various possibilities, you know, the various

[14:08]

really quite subtle intellectual possibilities why everything is mind, and you can, you know, maybe you can figure them out, it takes about a year or some more to figure them out. You know, like a piece of cheese, you know, if a piece of cheese had no smell or odor or taste, it wouldn't really be a piece of cheese, it'd be plastic or something, and yet all the qualities of the cheese that we've talked about, smell and odor and taste, are really qualities of our perceptions. So does the cheese exist without our perception, you know? You can think in that way, and you can think of various ways in which, but none of these ways you can figure out are what we mean by mind only. However, you know, it may be useful, particularly if you have that kind of mind that works that

[15:10]

way, to think through this kind of thing. But to each one this doesn't quite make sense, eventually it doesn't quite make sense if we really mean mind only, everything is mind. But that kind of idea is a very big idea, everything is mind, and there's not too much harm in thinking it, you know, so it may be better than having some other specific idea. So, if you're going to have some idea, let's put some bigger idea, and your idea is in your head. So whenever you encounter some situation, you can remind yourself that everything is

[16:16]

mind, you know? But then you get sort of perplexed about it, you know, because everything is mind, why it is, you know, etc. Anyway, a more fundamental idea for Buddhism is emptiness, but actually there are two schools of Buddhism based on, one is mind-only school and one is emptiness, but actually for Zen, mind only is a description of our existence from one point of view, and quite useful, you know, particularly quite useful in our practice in freeing ourselves from our usual conceptions, and useful as a... to understand mind, what we mean by mind only, is a useful step in coming to understand what we mean by emptiness.

[17:19]

Our mind is quite troublesome, and you should get to know it as well as you can, so really the way we practice primarily is you do Zazen, you know, and while you do Zazen, no matter how still you sit, you know, still you find some activity, you know, and so if we say Buddhist practice is everything you encounter, you know, what if we take away everything and have you sit completely still, looking at nothing, still you encounter something. What is that thing you still encounter? That's the thing we must come up against. So we try not to give you any special practice, just any special thing to do in Zazen, just

[18:56]

you're there and even though you've taken away all possibilities of usual encounters, still you encounter some activity. And when you get rid of the negative ideas you have, all the downers you put on yourself, you find that activity is actually rather joyful, joyful mind, some kind of pure pleasure actually that activity, but that activity isn't what we mean by emptiness. But you should become familiar with that activity. So, we, our practice then again is doing Zazen and connecting with the mind, with the mind

[20:20]

confronting that activity, and also we make some, there are some suggestions given you about, that make you take, try to keep you from finding some easy solution, because you can think up some easy solution usually, but some idea like mind only is not so easy to figure out. So phrases like mind only or the realm of non-obstruction are very easy to understand if you understand them, but if you don't understand them, it doesn't make exactly much sense. And the third condition of practice probably is that we take care of each other, that we

[21:29]

try to be friendly with each other. I don't, having gone to Washington, and I must have talked with several hundred people in the last week, I have to shift gears, come back to Zen Center, and so I don't have so

[22:42]

much to say tonight, but if you have anything you'd like to talk about, let's talk about it. Yeah? I've seen a term, heart-mind, and I assume this is a translation of Shin, and you were talking about, you were just using mind translation, so could you explain why you were using the term mind, not heart-mind? Well, mind only isn't exactly related to the Japanese word Shin for heart-mind. I think that's, I don't, there's no easy way to translate any of these words like emptiness or mind only, I think, but even if they're translated accurately, there's

[23:45]

no way exactly you can understand them, particularly from the term itself, so it doesn't make much difference whether we translate them accurately or not, you know, but heart-mind, you've been to Japan? Or you know Japanese at all? Yeah. Well, I've often done that in the wind bell, we've put heart-mind, you know, Zen Shinji is Zen Shinji is Zen heart-mind temple, but that's the difference with a body culture and a mind culture, and these are my own terms, but the only way I can describe the difference between the way we do things and think about things and the way Japanese, Chinese people do is they have what I'd call a body culture, you know, their intelligence is in

[24:48]

their body and their experiences, they feel much more than they think about things, in fact, to think about something in the way we do, it just doesn't make sense, so they naturally link feelings with perceptions, since their perceptions are closely related to their feelings. Anyway, that's a little different, but certainly related in that we can't really separate mind and body, yeah, yeah. What is wisdom? You. That's true, it's you, at least it looks like it to me. Yeah? Would you say something more about past exhaustion and how time is very difficult, because we're

[25:54]

going to another world? I know, yeah, coming back from, generally I don't mind only, I don't mind going, having to do things, you know, around, because I really, Suddhiki Rishi always used to talk about Avalokitesvara, you know, having 1,000 arms and 11 heads, so for a thief he's a thief, you know, and for a diplomat in Washington he's a diplomat, you know, or whatever. But going to Washington really was a shift in gears, I must say. The size of the bureaucracy is enormous, and you can practice in such a situation, it's

[27:00]

easy enough, actually, if you have practiced a lot, but to come back into the center of this practice in the way this should really move for everyone is not so easy. So, it's pretty difficult to practice, even continuing practice, you know, outside doing zazen, until you have that center, or center is such a common, everyone talks about being centered now, but anyway, it's pretty difficult. I don't have, you know, that's why Zen Center exists, because it's so difficult, and the

[28:07]

purpose, part of the purpose of our three places are, if you do go, if you really do know how to sit with other people, you know, when you leave Zen Center, other people will start joining your sitting. Usually we leave and we find it difficult to just keep sitting, but if you really sit just as an expression, the fullest expression of yourself, you know, quite naturally, then other people will start joining your practice, and when they do that, you'll have all the troubles we have here at Zen Center. So, part of practicing here, you know, is to have a chance to know what we mean by emptiness maybe, and also get some experience in what you do when people join your practice, whether

[29:12]

you farm with them or how you take care of things, you know. You live near Zen Center? Yeah. What? In Berkeley, yeah. Okay. To move with the rhythm of your life and the people who live with you, and then within that you have to find some opportunity to practice. Mostly, you need the real confidence that Zazen is the ultimate way to practice, even if you don't do Zazen, if you have that confidence, if you have no opportunity to do Zazen, actually find some place to sit each day, if you have that confidence, you can do Zazen between

[30:18]

each word in a sentence. Anywhere you are, you can do Zazen. There's some ... you know, normally, usually our experience of a sentence that we're saying is that there's all these words, and sometimes we're not even sure where they're going, though we're saying them, but they sort of got out there before we even ... but after you've been doing Zazen a while, the experience is not quite like that. It's more like what you experience is the space between the words, and the words ... the more you've practiced, the more the words are, there's one over there, one over there.

[31:21]

So, you have some rest, some calmness between the words, you know, or in an elevator, or walking, or waiting for whatever, you know. It's a factual, physical experience, too, you feel it right in your body, relaxing all the time. The problem is, if you get so you're like that, you know, you can do that, then it's pretty easy to let your consciousness enter into activity, and then you can do things pretty well, and so then everyone wants you to do things, so then you don't have any time to do Zazen or anything, so then you have to come back to Zen Center, where we all make some agreement to let each other do Zazen. In Washington, there's no such agreement yet, no one has that idea yet.

[32:30]

I was surprised, you know, I'm always surprised when you go someplace, you have this idea of a bunch of evil administrators perpetrating something like the Vietnam War, and you get there and of course there's lots of narrow-minded people, but there's also a lot of quite remarkable people trying to do something, you know. Of course, one thing that characterizes people in government is they're satisfied with a little progress. Usually, they're so overwhelmed by the Washington bureaucracy, they're amazed that anything gets done, you know, so just a little progress seems like a lot to them, you know. Yeah. Suzuki Roshi left us more or less on our own, you know, and right now Green Gelch being

[33:56]

out there, again, the last two days I've been out there to work on a particular problem that we're going to have with the water and things and how we're going to take care of our water sources. In the end, we're just a bunch of people, you know, trying to practice asana. And until we have a practice going like we do here and at Nassahara, it's interesting to see how difficult it is, you know. It's hard just to get a lecture going at Green Gelch or a zazen schedule or services, all seem quite out of place, you know. And without that, it's hard to have a sense of practice, you know.

[35:01]

And then you get caught in the ups and downs of the vegetables and the weather and the encounter group, you know. We end up having an encounter group rather than a sangha. It's interesting, you know, we all, all of us feel a little bit, not all of us, most of us, many of us feel a little bit funny about the ceremonies and things, particularly since they're not yet our style, you know, ceremonies. But still, they help a lot to change an encounter group into a sangha. You had a question back there? Yeah, just to answer a part of it. What I wanted to ask was, do you think it's better to jump right into a situation where

[36:01]

you might be blind for a while or kind of take it a little bit at a time, you know, just take little chunks off? Well, what situation do you have in mind? You don't have to answer, but it does depend on the situation, you know, and you have to use some wisdom about it. It's good to know what you're doing. And once you've jumped in, though, you shouldn't try to climb back out, you know, and if it's a mistake, just do it completely. Sometimes we have, you know, you have to have some sense of your strength, and sometimes it's good to do a little at a time, as much as you can do well.

[37:02]

Yeah, but sometimes there's no alternative to jumping in. But I think a little at a time is good. If you actually do a little at a time, you know, you're not, you know, not just jumping. Most of us, when we jump in, we really jump over, you know, the situation. And because we're actually, it's worse to do a little at a time, actually get into the situation. I think if you do a little at a time, you're actually jumping in. But really, I don't know exactly what you're talking about. Anyway, you have to, each situation is different. Yeah? Does Zen Buddhism have a concept of skillful means? Yeah, it sure does. So that was the last question. Skillful means is sometimes considered the highest, you know, excuse of all, or the highest wisdom of all.

[38:13]

What do you think skillful means? Means. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't thought about skillful means for a little while, you know. And so, because I'd like to, it's the history of how skillful means is part of Buddhism is important. I think it's a rather late idea. And so that's an important reason why it exists, but I can't remember exactly the background of it. But...

[39:30]

If... Anyway, I think... For what you're asking, it's not... We do have to have some idea of what we're doing. And we have to survive. And so, first of all, I have to figure out how to survive. I think that's most important. And... That's not exactly what Buddhism means by skillful means, which is closely related to the idea of emptiness and the world is a dream. But... Just in... If Buddhist practice is everything we encounter, we have to actually encounter it, you know,

[40:42]

which requires some skill. And... What do you encounter? Actually, what you encounter is your mind. And if your mind is confused, what you encounter will be confused. And the more your mind is clear, the more what you encounter will be clear and shining. Things... Actually, our mind is what we see around us. And you recognize everything as yourself. But first, you know, we have to withdraw from things in some way.

[41:48]

We get... As long as we're caught and have a habit of being caught, and... It's nearly impossible to... To... To see things clearly. And to not let our ideas interfere with the way we see things. So it's necessary to have some kind of withdrawal into a situation where you limit yourself pretty much with Zazen and with Sashin and... Living a life with other people who have the same kind of idea. That helps a lot. Then... You can do anything... Actually, you can do anything you want. But it's almost impossible to get free of the habit of being caught without some period of withdrawal. Yeah?

[42:51]

What is Sashin? Sashin? It's an extended period of meditation, usually... It can be one day, but usually it means seven days or five days, where instead of sitting just one period, you sit one period after another. It's pretty easy to do. Actually, everybody... Most everybody in this room has done Sashins. They're very difficult, but lots of people can do it. You know? And they help some, you know? I think it's important... It's very important to have sat some Sashins and really sat them well to get some idea of how to practice throughout every moment of your life. But the hard part is practicing in every moment of your life. Almost no one can do that, but lots of people can do Sashins, which are...

[43:53]

The first few Sashins for most people are pretty difficult. Oh my God! You know, you're in the middle... Most people in the middle of it, they wonder what they've gotten themselves into. Yeah? You said we have to survive. What is it we have to survive? Well, if you... If there's no answer to that question, then you don't have to worry about surviving because you'll survive very well. As long as you have some problem about survival, then you have to survive. Yeah? How is it possible to... ...experience a Sashin or any community life? How is it possible? Yes. You had this... When is the next Sashin?

[44:54]

You can sign him up. Anyway, we have Sashins here, and other Zen groups have Sashins, and you find a Zen group you like, or one that you feel might as well be stuck with one as well as another, and you go to Sashin. I think the next one in Zen Center is... When? October? Beginning of October? Week from Saturday. Week from Saturday, yeah. Is it a seven-day Sashin or a five-day Sashin? Five? Five-day Sashin. But if you haven't sat much, you should sit regularly for a while before you go to Sashin. You can go one day or something if you want. I think we have some rules. You can't go if you haven't been sitting for some length of time. Like how long? You can't go. Unless you've been sitting for some length of time. Maybe they let you... Maybe you can go for one day. I don't know. But anyway, I would suggest that you

[45:55]

have been sitting for a few months anyway, daily, before you go to Sashin. Not necessary. I went... I started practicing at Zen Center in about 1960, somewhere in there. Sixty, somewhere. And they just had their first Sashin. They had their first or second Sashin. I guess it was the second Sashin. I didn't know what a Sashin was, and I saw a name, Paul Alexander, you know, signed. And I knew a painter named Paul Alexander. I knew he didn't know anything about Buddhism or Zen, and I thought, well, if he's going, if he can do it, well, I can do it too. I don't know what it is, but I'll sign up. So I signed up, right? Well, it was a different Paul Alexander. And I'd only been sitting, see, two or three weeks, right?

[46:57]

I couldn't believe it, you know. What did you do after that? After the Sashin? What was the next step? Oh, I kept sitting, you know. I didn't... I didn't sit the full Sashin. I mean, I didn't realize I had to stay all day, and I had a job, and so I came half days, and then I worked the other half day. Still, that was... I remember I had lunch with somebody. The only day I could sit all day was a Saturday, and I had lunch with somebody in Japantown, and during lunch, I felt I was playing hooky from this thing that was so horrible. It was a very strange experience. I couldn't understand it. When I was there, I couldn't imagine, wow, anybody in his right mind would be sitting there. And then when I left, I had this feeling I should be back there. Well, I knew something was up, you know.

[48:01]

So, even though it's... somehow, being nothing, it seemed more substantial than most things. So anyway, I don't know. I kept doing it. Be careful. You may end up here. Sorry. Anyway, thank you very much.

[48:32]

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