I vow to taste the truth of the Tatata's words. Good morning. Good morning. I'd like to introduce our speaker this morning, Ron Nestor. I first met Ron, it must have been really early 70s, when he, I think, he came to the Berkley Zen Center when it was over on Dwight Way, just a little while after And he's been a, I hate to say it, but more or less a fixture of the Berkley Zen Center ever since, I don't know if that's the right way to put it, but Ron has- It depends what room you're talking about. Yeah. Ron has, was a resident here for eight years and has held various practice positions. And I think was it, within the last couple of years, he served as Shiso here for, It was about five or six or seven years ago.

[01:02]

That's how my memory is. Ron currently resides in Oakland with his wife and works in San Francisco, has been doing administrative work in massage in a yoga studio. And an upcoming event here is a class of a heart suture he will be teaching with Karen Sondheim. So you might want to check into that if you're Thank you, dear. First of all, I just wanted to, can we turn this down a little bit? I feel like I should start singing or something. I'd like to just acknowledge Butch, who is dying of cancer in the lower 1933A. He can't hear.

[02:06]

Okay, that's good. And just wish him the best. He's well supported. People are taking very good care of him. He's able to be out in a wheelchair. Andrea was able to take him for, I mean, Bika was able to take him for a walk yesterday. So, and he's well supported and people are taking good care of him, just to acknowledge that what he's going through and just wish him the best. So Karen and I will be leading a class on the Heart Sutra in a couple of weeks, so that's what I've been thinking about. And if you want to take that class, there's a sign up on the bulletin board and also there are, there is an outline for the class which is in a bound outline which is inside the community room on the,

[03:12]

card file. So if you want to take the class just pick up one of those outlines and just take it with you. You know the Heart Sutra which we chant every day, the heart of the Heart Sutra is a teaching of emptiness and interestingly you can kind of see that the teaching of emptiness is right in this room that we're all sitting around the perimeter mostly but the center is more sparsely populated. This is the teaching of emptiness. So the Heart Sutra, because we're so familiar with it, it's so close to us, it's so in front of our face, it's almost too close. And when we say something every day, when we do something every day, there's a plus and a minus.

[04:21]

Plus is we just absorb it, and it can permeate us in ways that we're not even aware of. It just becomes a part of our life, it becomes a part of our body. The minus side is that we stop noticing, we stop being awake to it. Because when we get into a habit, we start to do the same thing over and over again. We stop noticing what we're doing. We stop really noticing what we're doing. So that's why so much of the time we like things that are new experiences or we like travel. Something that wakes us up to a new experience makes us feel alive and we notice we're awake and when we're in our usual routine there's a tendency to become somewhat deadened. So the Heart Sutra are the group of words that we say more than any other group of words in this practice.

[05:26]

And the problem is that we can become deadened of the Heart Sutra, even though intellectually we may have a kind of good understanding of what the Heart Sutra says, the intellectual understanding doesn't go so far if it just remains a kind of a mental concept. I'm assuming that most of you are familiar with the Heart Sutra, but that's not maybe the case, and so I'll assume that you're not. And I don't want to give a lecture on ... the Heart Sutra is a vast subject because it includes so much of Buddhism within it. But I'd just like to talk about it in a very simple way in the core teaching of the Heart Sutra this morning, and whether you're very familiar with it or not at all, hopefully it won't matter so much. The core, the Heart Sutra is very short.

[06:32]

It's one page long. And the core, the Heart Sutra is actually the core of Buddhist teaching. And the core of the Heart Sutra is one sentence. And that sentence is, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. just that. All dharmas are marked with emptiness. And the word dharma is complex. It has a lot of complex variants in its meaning and subtleties and nuances in the way that it's used within Buddhism, but for the purposes of the Heart Sutra and for the talk this morning what it means is elements of reality or elements of phenomena, basically all phenomena, all things that you can break down into units would be called the Dharma. So what the Heart Sutra is saying is that all units of phenomena are empty and what the emptiness means is emptiness of an own being or emptiness of an entity which stands alone or is independent.

[07:48]

So the word emptiness is a really potent and powerful word in English language. Maybe it's because Americans are so consumed with trying to gain something and accumulate something that the word empty has this kind of shocking, powerful feeling for us. But the emptiness that in Buddhism when we talk about, when we use the word emptiness it's not it's not an emptiness that means nothingness this is really key because when first of all you hear the word emptiness you first feel like nothingness but in buddhism it doesn't mean nothingness it means emptiness of something and and what is this something that phenomena is empty of and the something is a core that there is no core This is a fundamental point of the Heart Sutra.

[08:52]

Or, no core can be found. Let's put it that way. Buddha said that no core could be found. So far, we haven't been able to find one. we like to you know as humans I think that we like to have a feeling that ultimately there's something that we can really rely on as the starting point as something which is a core of life or reality and that if we can just be in alignment with this core or this fundamental essence of life that we will be happy somehow or we will be have a kind of security. And you can see in so many ways how humans look for some kind of core that they can relate to.

[10:02]

Many religions do this and many philosophical systems do this. We hang on to an idea or an ideology or a deity as our core And by core we mean something which is permanent, which doesn't change, which we can always rely on and is unchangeable and is indestructible. And Buddha's teaching, which was one of the three marks of existence, which is that there is no core self, to be found. There are only arising and decay of phenomena which are all impacting each other.

[11:03]

So there's no one that's the king. There's no aspect of reality which is the king and which is indestructible. everything is influenced by everything else. There's nothing which is not influenced and changed by what's around it. So you know if you think about how we think about ourself you know, in the middle of the night, how do you feel about yourself? Who are you? Do you see, do you feel yourself as just sort of a combination of elements swirling around? Or do you feel like there's some essential true essence there?

[12:07]

And I'm speaking mostly emotionally now, not so much intellectually or analytically, but emotionally. Most of us, I think, have some feeling that there's some essential us. We have that feeling. And Buddha's point was that in a sense that that's not even reasonable. Why should there be some core? What can you see that proves or illustrates that there is some immutable unchangeable core? Where is it? How would you describe it? So this is really fundamental teaching of Buddhism and where Buddhism is different from almost every other religion or spiritual path.

[13:29]

So I would imagine Well, I wonder, do we all accept that? Do we all agree with that? Do we all just, do we all mentally accept that? I'm not sure. To me, it seems like just common sense. It doesn't seem like it's a particularly abstract or complex or esoteric point of view. It seems to be just common sense. But I would imagine that most people that come here regularly would more or less agree that this is true. I'm curious, is there... I don't want to put you on the spot, but is there anybody who feels like that that's not true or has some... has a real question about that.

[14:45]

This seems like it's really confusing or either not true or very confusing and very obscure. Is there anybody who feels like that and doesn't mind being on the spot? Ko? I feel it depends on sometimes emptiness is quite fine with me, quite empty, I mean quite But there sure is other times when it's not. Where, you know, there's a tenseness or there's an overwhelmingness or something. I think that that's based on there's a big part of me that still thinks things are solid. They've got to be done. This has to be done. There's this big pile of stuff to be done. Things like that. Very solid. But what do you, that's, so you change, you have, you change.

[15:54]

Or I'm always of these two views. And when you feel something solid, do you, You know, you're aware that emotions kind of come and go, they arise, they change. So you have this feeling that something is solid. I know that a particular emotion will come and go, but right at the time, I don't have the control. But how about intellectually? How about conceptually, mentally? It doesn't shift the emotion, but the mental, but the idea, the notion of emptiness, of a known being, of a core, do you have a hard time with that or do you think that that's not true?

[17:00]

Well, it's that distinction between the intellectual and the gut. The gut, solid, intellectual, empty. Okay. Alright, I understand that. As you described, as you gave that description, it felt quite right to me. as cultures go and as time goes and as everything changes, certain things like that just won't change. But is your feeling, that feeling that it's wrong to cause harm and that

[18:19]

that emotion and that thought, are they always exactly the same? When you visualize or you are aware of that attitude within you, is that attitude always exactly the same? No, I'm sure it's not. I'd have to try it out. what's wrong and what's right. And sometimes just that I'm so stuck in it that it doesn't benefit me or other people. But still, the core, it seems to be there, it seems in my mind sort of unshakable.

[19:26]

I would venture that this thing that's in your mind itself is not identical moment to moment. That's what I would suggest. Not being in your mind, it's not fair to say that, but that's what I would suggest. Because what you're describing is an attitude that's in you. It's not something which is out there. It's an attitude that you're describing. And the question is whether that attitude stands alone, is independent, can be totally, totally separate from anything else, can't be influenced, can't be changed, can't be moved. If nothing else, when you die, that attitude could just evaporate. You may be the only one in the whole world that has that attitude, and when you die,

[20:33]

So we can't afford to lose you. So, okay, Anne? Moffat, I'm sorry. That question made me, clarified for me what seems to be a kind of confusion that continues for me, and I hadn't realized exactly how that was happening. And I wondered, I'm going to ask you what you thought about this. I think I am convinced from personal experience that there's no continuing eternal something in my identity, if you will, body or mind, but the term form and emptiness, we talk about emptiness, or this term, what is unmoving, it's a Vedic or Padashyatic term, things that are moving, and there's that which is unmoving,

[22:06]

of that kind of concept. There's this absolute, and then we have the concept of what's changing and transitory, just where we are. And I realized that I've been thinking in terms of emptiness as another way of talking about this absolute something, absolute nothing. But actually, it may not be that kind of statement. It may just be talking, speaking to our experience or what we feel, we identify, or has somehow, I mean, we, with our own form, psychologically, too. But it seems that the Shakyamuni Buddha, in any case, really didn't want to talk about this other kind of, you know, the metaphysical.

[23:26]

And he was speaking to people just about of conditions and elements, material or not exactly, temporary. And I realized that I'm still kind of fishing around for that metaphysical something, or consciousness with a capital C, or mind with a capital M. And yet, now I'm thinking, well, He seemed to want to address that because he said, you know, people were getting rid of war. Well the point was that there is not a capital E emptiness, that emptiness is not something.

[24:52]

Emptiness is just a lack of a diluted view. But that emptiness is not a kind of a ... this emptiness is not like this force, a metaphysical force. And that's, we tend to want to have that. We want to have a force, a metaphysical force which we can rely on. Yeah, but it's not a force. It's just simply, it's emptiness of a deluded view. It's that we're looking at things in a deluded way and he's just pointing that out. He said he can't be found. So far we have not been able to find a core. You're close. I don't have enough familiarity with the sutras and with that aspect of what Buddha talked about to give you a good clear answer.

[25:59]

But Alan is shaking his head. the co-conditioning of everything, then a conditioned, provisional self might exist, but it's not the self that we conventionally understand as kind of permanent or fixed. So that's what he wouldn't speak to, whether it was eternal or not in us. Right, okay. So I keep wanting to speak to that. I understand, and I can't give you ... And now I realize, well, probably won't stop, It's okay to ask. Research it. Let me continue. So, most of us have some agreement about the emptiness of own being or the emptiness of a core, whether we can fully embrace it as another matter, but intellectually at least we can accept it, most of us can.

[27:34]

The question is how do we take it from the intellectual or the conceptual into a full body and mind experience. How does the nature of emptiness of own being, how do we practice that? That's really the question. Otherwise, it's a wonderful sutra and we can have philosophical discussions about it, but if it doesn't actually If our way of viewing our life and experiencing our life isn't affected by this teaching, so why would we bother? So the question is, how does this affect the way that we see the world and ourselves? And how do we ... The reason that

[28:39]

Buddha had to make such a big deal about it was because we had such a difficult time with it. So let's assume that we have a difficult time with this. This is not an easy kind of thing to actually practice and to take in emotionally, intellectually, body, our whole being has a difficult time with this. there's a sutra called the Simile of the Snake and in this sutra there is a monk named Arita or Aritha, may have been of the Franklin clan I'm not sure, and Aritha started telling his fellow monks that actually he

[29:48]

He was a celibate monk. The sexual relations were actually fine, contrary to what Buddha had instructed, that sexual relations were no problem at all. And his monks, his fellow monks were shocked and went to Buddha and said, he's completely contradicting your teachings about restraining yourself from sexual relations and sensuality. And so Buddha called him and had a discussion with him and said basically that he was misguided and wrong and to think that, and he said it's like if you want to try to catch a snake, if you just if you just pick up the snake by the tail, you'll probably get bit. However, if you're more skillful and you try to catch the snake with a stick and you put it on the snake's head and then reach down and grab the snake by the back of the head, then you can hold the snake and you will not be bitten.

[31:03]

In just that same way that if you take the teachings, Buddhist teachings, and actually use them skillfully that's the purpose. If you just take the teachings and it's a kind of an idea but you don't embody it we'll get bit. So the question is how do we embody the teaching of emptiness of own being? Here's the answer. Mindfulness. By being mindful, by being aware, and by, you know, in Zen, we kind of emphasize just sort of all-purpose awareness, just being present right now.

[32:20]

Other forms of Buddhism put more stress on various practices. Zen, the characteristics of Zen is not so much to put stress on various practices, but your entire life and your present moment is your practice. But it doesn't mean that we can't use practices, that we can't have practices. And so the practice of mindfulness, actually the four foundations of mindfulness, you can direct your attention to different aspects of your life, intentionally and consciously as a practice. You could be the awareness of your body. You could make up your mind to be aware more of your body's sensations. and whether they're pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. You can make up your mind to do that and become more in touch with your body and how you relate to your body and how your body influences your mind and your whole being.

[33:31]

In the same way, you could decide to be aware an open kind of an awareness of the nature of emptiness of an own being, emptiness of a soul, emptiness of a core. You could decide to watch how that works within yourself and within the world. It's simply a practice. If it's just an intellectual practice, if it's just sort of like I'm the observer and I'm watching everything, I'm watching the observed, if there's too much of a separation, it just could become a kind of a conceited kind of an analysis. But real mindfulness is not a separation, but real mindfulness is a involvement, but involvement with awareness.

[34:40]

So if I'm at work, if I'm at a meeting, and I have various, I love the business that I work at, I have a lot of ideas about what's good for it and what's not good for it. And then we have a meeting and somebody says some idea or strategy which really goes against the grain of what I think is right, I notice that I have this sort of strong sense of resistance. and to practice the mindfulness of emptiness of own being I notice I intentionally notice who you know what's the um where where it's kind of like what Ko is saying where is this where is this this emotional core which doesn't like what's being said what you know what is this emotional core And what if this emotional core isn't a core at all but just a kind of a swirl of various energies and influences moving around and changing?

[36:07]

What if it were like that? And then it lightens up. You frequently hear people, especially like on Monday morning when we give our Monday morning talks, they'll say something like, well, I had a lot of trouble with anger for a long time or anxiety. And then as I began to sit more and practice more and be more accepting of myself and others, there began to be a sense of space. I felt like I had more spaciousness. So this spaciousness is this breaking up of this kind of core feeling that we have, this is me, this is what I think, this is how it has to be. The meetings are easy, or not easy, but

[37:18]

It's kind of fun actually. This kind of practice within a meeting is kind of interesting, fun to do. However, I find that with relationships, personal relationships, to look at myself in this way or to feel myself in this way is not so easy. It feels very weird and kind of threatening. if I really like somebody or have a feeling of being uncomfortable with somebody, I want to have a stance, I want to have a position and I want to have a core. So it's tricky because we could just go around being totally wishy-washy, not taking a position, not having any real value system.

[38:23]

So it is necessary to have a position to organize ourselves and to have a point of view. But what I'm suggesting is that we can practice being mindful of just where that's coming from. And that this takes some ... maybe we're just so spontaneously aware that we don't need to intentionally make an effort to notice this, and that's wonderful if we can be like that. But some of us are more slow. and we need to sort of focus our mindfulness and then just keep on moving. This is not really Zen practice but it's not inconsistent with Zen practice either.

[39:33]

So We're close to the end, but I could take a couple of comments or questions. Ross? Thank you, Ron. You opened up your talk today with the warning, if you will, that this heart syndrome is so close to us that we can habituate to it and not really look at it. forget everything, just during that chant. How do you forget everything? It's not so different than just sitting. You could say, you know, we just sit over and over and over again.

[40:43]

Well, if we have an idea, a gaming idea, about sitting, and we're just sitting there thinking, oh gosh, my mind is going off, I'll just bring it back, there seems to be an okay-ness about just lazy Buddha, or sleeping Buddha, or daydreaming Buddha, that it's okay just being present. With the chanting, I suspect we could use the same teaching, and at the same time, you know, we're teaching classical Heart Sutra, and this thing is central to our practice here, it doesn't seem as appropriate to just, well, it's okay to daydream while you're chanting, even though you do do that, and we kind of come back to a line where we forget where we were just chanting and the sutra is over. That doesn't seem appropriate? Well, that's my own gang idea about trying to be present, you know, word for word as we chant. And maybe through osmosis or something of just the practice, as the Buddha said, just reciting the sutra, there's incredible merit that's gained from that.

[41:45]

way in which you found over the many years you've been practicing to stay mindful and present while chanting? And maybe it's just as simple as not beating yourself up if you space out during the chant. Or do you have enough faith that your body or being is absorbing it on some level? Well, I think it's not really different than sitting practice. It's just coming back. That's the best we can do, is to come back And what we're coming back to is changing constantly. Ron, let's say that we agree about, in some way, about the emptiness of own self in every one of us. What does it mean to say you love somebody? Is there anybody there to love? What could that mean?

[42:55]

I don't want you to say, oh, what we usually take for love is some kind of attachment to a fantasy of self. Let's jump right over that. Is there something that we could actually meaningfully say? If we said, I love you, I love so-and-so, what would that mean? It would mean that we have this feeling and this engagement and we see how this can change, can grow, can diminish, that it's not fixed.

[44:03]

Wouldn't we love love to be fixed? So can you have love without it being fixed? Do you have the confidence to have love without having a fixed love? Not to have the assurance that the next moment maybe you won't be loving. Wouldn't that be horrible? Linda went like this. Oh, one more. But then why one person and not another? Why would you love one person but not love another? No, I mean, why would you love one particular person as opposed to anybody else?

[45:08]

I don't see what the problem is. Maybe I misunderstood what you said. I'm saying is that love is not something which is fixed. Love can change its quality, the feeling, whatever feeling you want to identify or awareness you want to identify with the word love, that that is changeable. That's the only point. But then so is the other person. Yes. And that's why I said, why would you then love one person? Well, because those elements are having to go together right now. That's all. So, I should give some encouraging ending, but I won't.

[46:13]

The encouragement is that if everything is changing and there is no core, that everything is supporting us, that everything supports everything else. Thank you.

[46:28]

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