I love to taste the truth of the Tathāgata's words. So, the theory that most of us, or many of us, know the translation of Īchen and Zendo fairly well, I distributed two other translations. One of the many engaged is from Pāstāmāshi, Essential Zen. And the other one, the title didn't get Xeroxed, but the title is Investigation into the Matching Habs, I think is the title. And that one is by Master Shunyin. Inquiry into Matching Habs. Anyway, I just thought it would be interesting to have other translations.

[01:03]

So, last time, we kind of introduced Sekito Ishido and told a little bit about his practice. Then we talked about the title, the sangokai, and the basic thrust of the poem in the first couple of stanzas. So I think we were at the part that goes, The spiritual source shines clearly in the light. Branching streams flow in the darkness. Grasping things is basically delusion. Merging with principles is still delusion. Or, as Kaz translates it,

[02:08]

The wondrous source shines brightly. Its branches spread in darkness. Attachment to things is delusion. Knowing this essence is not yet enlightenment. And Shunyin has, The spiritual source is bright and pure. Branching up and secretly flowing forth. Attachment to phenomenon has always been confusion. Yet, union with principle is not enlightenment. So, I've studied this part for a while, and various parts of these lines reflect each other in interesting ways.

[03:16]

The way I offer a translation here, The spiritual source shines clear and bright. Branching streams flow in darkness. Attaching to phenomenon is the basis of delusion. Or, attaching to phenomenon is based on delusion. But sticking to oneness isn't enlightenment either. And I did it that way because the verbs seem to, when you look at the Chinese characters, the verbs in these sentences clearly relate to one another very carefully. In the first two lines, we have shining and flowing. The spiritual source shines and the branching streams flow. So it's very symmetrical.

[04:19]

You know, you have the spiritual source on the one line, and the branching streams, which are in contrast. The source and the branches are in contrast. You have clear and bright and darkness, which are in contrast. And you have shining and flowing, which are, in a way, similar. Particularly when you consider the verbs in the next two lines, which are attaching and sticking. So shining and flowing is one kind of thing, and attaching and sticking is another kind of thing, which is quite the opposite. And then you have this relationship of light and dark, and delusion and enlightenment. So when you look at these, you know, Chinese, we always have to remember that this is a poem, which means that sometimes clarity of meaning will be sacrificed to poetic beauty.

[05:25]

And Chinese poetry is particularly a visual, because in the grammatic language, it's a strong visual impact. So you see characters, you know, when you look at a picture, it has a certain balance when you see one side and the other side, or one color and another color, like that. This is not the case in English or European languages, but in Chinese and Japanese, but even more in Chinese than in Japanese. There's this sort of pictorial quality. So you can imagine this, you know, these simple, I forget how many, I think it's a four-character line, but I can't quite remember, four or five-character line. So the spiritual source and shining and brightness, the branching streams and flowing and darkness, attachment to phenomena or different things in the world,

[06:28]

delusion, sticking to oneness, which is the opposite of phenomena, right? There's phenomena, there's oneness, sticking to oneness and enlightenment. All these elements are really before us in these lines. It's kind of tricky because what does light stand for in the poem and what does darkness stand for in the poem? And generally speaking, the tradition of interpretation that we follow, and I think when you look at certain parts of the poem, it figures this out, and Suzuki Roshi interprets it this way as well in his commentary, that light indicates the world of individual phenomena.

[07:30]

In the light, you can distinguish things. When it's light, you know, you see there's a tree, there's a bush, there's hay, there's dough, there's sand, different people. If you turn the lights out, you may not be able to distinguish between one thing and another. In dark, things are inherently unknown. You can't know them. So darkness is the world of unity, non-differentiation, the oneness of all things. And also, in dark, you don't apprehend, you don't see, you don't know. So in the world of unity, you don't really know. You can't have experience and knowledge and possess things mentally, experientially, in the dark, the way you can in the light, where you can make distinctions.

[08:32]

Now, Master Sheng Yen interprets it the opposite way, using a sort of symbolism of light. White and light as purity and dark as impurity. He interprets it like that. The world of darkness is the world of delusion, or as he uses the term, vexation. And the world of light is the world of enlightenment, purity. So you would think that that's a big problem, to have the opposite interpretation. But don't forget that light and dark are not different things. So actually, it might not make that much difference. It's not the opposite interpretation. And even within the Sangha by itself, sometimes the same, it's reversed from time to time. And in this case, it's reversed to some extent.

[09:36]

It's a subtle point here. But if light is the world of phenomena, and darkness is the world of oneness, and you have these two terms, the spiritual source and the branching streams, the spiritual source is the one undifferentiated source, and the branching streams are just, as they say, branches, like phenomena. Like this one interpretation of the spiritual source, you could say, is the Dharma itself, and the branching streams are the branching schools. Or the spiritual source is ultimate reality, and the branching streams are the differentiated phenomena of the world. So, if light is phenomena and dark is oneness, and the spiritual source is the spiritual source and the branching streams are the branching streams,

[10:37]

you would think then that you'd pair the source with darkness, right? Unity, oneness, and the branching streams with light. Right? But it's the opposite. The spiritual source shines in the light, the branching streams flow in the darkness. So, the darkness is in the light, and the light is in the darkness, as later on in the poem this will be discussed more, because don't forget, the light and the darkness are only concepts in our minds. There isn't two things called the light and the darkness, two different realities.

[11:39]

Oneness, in fact, the crucial point of the Sangha Kai is that oneness and differentiation are not two different things. There is no actual difference between them. In fact, it would be an incomplete religious experience or an incomplete religious viewpoint to see them as different. To see, now I've left the world of phenomena and I've now entered the world of oneness. I dwell in oneness. In fact, this is exactly what's being referred to in this final of the four lines. Sticking to oneness isn't enlightened either. So, attaching to phenomena is the basis of illusion.

[12:42]

And it's unclear whether it could be translated as the basis of illusion or it also could be, is based on illusion. From delusion comes attachment to phenomena. So, when you grasp phenomena, this is delusion. But if you live in the world of phenomena without grasping the world of phenomena, therefore, that's enlightenment. Seeing oneness, you might think, is enlightenment, but if you stick to that seeing of oneness, if you grasp that seeing of oneness, then that's delusion. So, sticking to enlightenment is delusion and not sticking to the world of phenomena, the world of delusion, in a way, because things really aren't differentiated. But being in that differentiated world without sticking to it, without grasping it, would be enlightenment, although the opposite is said.

[13:43]

If you stick to it, it's delusion. And I'm just drawing the inference. If you don't stick to it, of course, it's enlightenment. So, we think experience of oneness, or oneness is religion, is the way, is the path, is the dharma. But here it's saying, not that oneness is bad, but oneness still isn't it. Sticking to oneness. So, samdo kai, emerging of difference in unity, is actually, in a way, beyond enlightenment itself, because enlightenment is oneness. You could talk like that. Enlightenment is the realization of oneness, the experience of oneness. And samdo kai is actually beyond the experience of oneness. It's somehow a radical dialogue

[14:50]

between the experience of oneness and the ordinary, everyday, conventional world of differentiation. So, the spiritual source, which you would think would be in the darkness, actually shines clearly in the light. This world of differentiation is the spiritual source shining right here. The branching streams, the different schools of Buddhism, the different things of the world, which you would think, well, they're just things of the world, but they themselves are empty. As deep as the Shakyamuni Buddha, as deep as the Dharmakaya. So, you respect every little thing. You don't say, well, that's just so-and-so. No, everything flows in the darkness. But, if we attach to those things in the phenomenal world, that we realize are the Dharmakaya, so full respect, full awe for, I don't know what, the 49ers.

[15:54]

But, if we attach to that, then this is delusion. On the other hand, if we stick to oneness, this isn't enlightenment either. So, I think we pretty much creeped out into a dead horse. When it says, knowing this essence, is that the same thing as an enlightenment experience? Is this when you say, knowing this essence, where is that from? Is that from the causes translation? It's not shaking hands, it's the other one. Where does it say, knowing this essence is not yet enlightenment. Yeah, knowing this essence means, I translate it as, sticking to oneness. You're saying sticking to oneness, but is the experience of oneness, is that a Kensho experience?

[16:59]

Yeah, that's it. That experience and sticking to it is not enlightenment. Even the experience itself is not enlightenment. The experience of oneness is not yet complete enlightenment. So, this is saying that truly, enlightenment is beyond even Kensho, Satori. Although it's kind of tricky, because the word here for enlightenment is Satori. But essentially, you're right. I think so. And this is very much taught, you know, that almost everywhere you read over and over again, Satori is the beginning. Satori is just a start. If you think that that's it, then you're doomed. Just like here, if you think that this experience is the essence, and then you stick to that and objectify that, it's not it, it's just the beginning. It's an opening, but it's not the whole path.

[18:04]

Suzuki Roshi had... I copied down something that he said in his commentary. He says, commenting on these lines, even though you recognize the truth, that everything is one, it is not always enlightenment. So he fudges it a little there. It's not always enlightenment. So he's willing to admit, maybe it is enlightenment. It's not always enlightenment. And he changes it, actually, in the commentary. It's very charming. And he says, well, maybe, I should say, it's not yet enlightenment. But maybe it is always enlightenment. Not always enlightenment. So he fudges on that point. Then he goes on. It is just understanding by your head, by your thinking. Real enlightenment includes both. And this is the line that I think is most important to understand.

[19:10]

An enlightened person does not ignore things and does not stick to them. And does not stick to the truth either. So I think the implication is that to stick to oneness would be to ignore things. If you dwell in the experience of oneness, then everything is pretty irrelevant. Everything is one. It's all one. So I'm not really worried about what happens to you or anything else. Because it's all one anyway. Which is true. But to stick to that and objectify that view in that way is going too far. So an enlightened person doesn't ignore things on the one hand. And on the other hand, doesn't stick to them. So this is the balance of Sangha. Not ignoring things, meaning the phenomenal world. But on the other hand, not sticking to the phenomenal world. So, okay.

[20:13]

Let's do one more. And then open it up to some dialogue. Next one. Grasping things. Each sense. Oh yeah. Each sense in every field. And I'm not quoting from the one that Chen was in. Each sense in every field. Interact and do not interact. When interacting they also merge. Otherwise they remain in their own states. A very, you know, cryptic and difficult to understand technical thing it sounds like. Each sense in every field. Interact and do not interact. When interacting they also merge. Otherwise they remain in their own states. All objects. This is cause. All objects in each sense field

[21:15]

merge yet don't merge with one another. When they merge they embrace all things. Otherwise they maintain their own place. Next is Shen Yen. Every Dharma door. Every Dharma door includes all realms. Some mutually interact, others do not. Reaction increases mutual involvement. There should be no reliance on abiding in one place. And to be perfectly honest with you it was around here that Master Shen Yen and I parted company. And I think it might have been just a function of my brain having turned to mush at this point. But he at some point I just his interpretation was so far removed from the Japanese text and the familiar interpretation and his explanations of his interpretation were so

[22:16]

kind of out there in my reading that I started reading less of it. So I don't, maybe next time I don't look at it I'll feel differently. But this particular time I have to confess that I didn't rely, my rewards didn't rely very little on Master Shen Yen's interpretation because I don't think that he's actually as true to the text as could be. So let's see. You know Suzuki Roshi, this business about each sense and every field interacting and non-interacting and so on. Suzuki Roshi has a very refreshing approach to this. He says this is just rhetorical. You know this is just it's poetry so they have to use this kind of expression.

[23:19]

But what it really comes down to is each sense and every field and so on and so forth really comes down to the world, the whole world, everything. Because the word that's used is actually gate, gates, mon, mon. Gates. And these are the six sense gates of the human being which as far as we're concerned is how we apprehend the world. So it's referring to the it's actually referring technically to the six sense gates and the objects that meet those six sense gates in order for us to have an experience of a world. So Suzuki Roshi said well forget about that. The main thing is, it means, you know the world as we experience it. And then he goes to great lengths to talk about this double experience of

[24:21]

which I try to think about and find a way to express this double experience of each and every thing and each and every person being at one and the same time simultaneously related in the most radical way possible to each and every thing in the world. So I mean we can say we're related I mean we're all related to each other and you know we're related to the U.S. government or who knows what. But this means like right now each one of us is related to the farthest atom in the distant boundary of the universe. Each and every particle of consciousness and matter in the whole universe. Now we're totally related. In fact there's no us at all other than this void in the center of this vast relationship all coming to a point which is us which is blank.

[25:22]

That's how thoroughly we're related. There's nothing else but that relationship in our lives. That's true. And simultaneously there is no other world outside of us. Each one of us is absolutely the center of the universe and contains the whole universe. So we are a void. So each thing, each person each thought, not only a person but each thought in the mind each atom of matter is simultaneously a cipher around which everything else collects and the container of everything else in the whole universe. So each thing... So it's a kind of a... Yeah, Andy's gone home. It's annoying Bob. So that goes back to Suzuki Roshi's point that I brought up last week of each thing having absolute value incomparable value by virtue of its being what it is. Each person

[26:24]

each thought each physical particle of matter has an absolute value an absolute virtue just because it is what it is and expresses itself in being what it is. And to appreciate the message of the Sandokai is to appreciate this fact to see and to live it, to live in the certainty that we are never alone. We are constantly exercising the whole universe and our lives are only an expression of the whole universe. You know, we think what shall I do to satisfy myself? But in reality the universe is you know, bringing us up and our life is expressing the whole universe moment after moment and we contain the whole universe moment after moment. So that's how

[27:26]

Sukhya Roshi interprets it and he actually offers a translation of those lines basically leaving out the whole issue of the five gates and all that and he says well let me just mention it. He says our five senses in the objective world are interdependent and independent and this interdependence goes everywhere and it stays in its own place. That's Sukhya Roshi's translation of those lines. And I have a note my sort of comment on that is everything is nothing each thing each thing is nothing and everything simultaneously. And that's, again, saṅgokaka merging of difference and unity. So

[28:27]

I'll give you another translation that I made which is almost like a pigeon English translation based on reading characters. The sense gates in their realms because there's a term in Buddhist psychology you have the idea of what lines up is a sense organ and an object of that sense organ and a consciousness specific to that sense. So in Buddhist psychology there are actually sense gates in the six different varieties of consciousness dependent because visual consciousness is not the same as auditory consciousness. And so a realm is that whole line up of the concatenation of the organ and the object and the consciousness that's called a realm. So that's what's being referred to here is this realm and the relationship between

[29:31]

the senses and the objects and the consciousness and the six different consciousnesses, the six different realms. They and this is what the characters actually say the sense gates in their realms go around and around each other. And you can imagine weaving around and around like circling each other mutually. The sense gates in their realms go around and around each other and also do not go around and around each other. That's what the characters say. The six sense realms go around and around each other and also do not go around and around each other. So our senses are in, we create the world. We are actually creating the world because the

[30:33]

world as we understand it is affected by our senses and vice versa. There's a dynamic relationship going on here as we know from science which modern science which indicates that the presence of the experimenter in the middle of the experiment alters the experiment. So consciousness it's being applied alters the situation and vice versa. Consciousness is conditioned by the situation, so called outside consciousness. So we're in a dynamic relationship with the world that we perceive. And also simultaneously we don't touch that world at all. There is no going around and around it. So the realm of going around and around part is the interdependence of all things and the part that says and they don't go around and around is the independence. Our senses

[31:35]

and each thing in the world is independent. So the sense gates and their realms go around and around each other and they do not go around and around each other. When they go around and around each other, they go on and on that way. That's what the characters seem to indicate. And yet they remain in their own positions. So pretty much I'm just giving you a flavor for what the Chinese feels like to me anyway. But it's not really so different at all from what Surya is saying. This simultaneous opposition not opposition, but merging really, identity between total independence and total mutual dependence. And this is true of the whole world. Now just

[32:36]

in front of it there's another commentary. I have an unpublished commentary by one of my teachers Tetsugan Glassman. And in discussing this part of the work he brings up a saying from Genjo Koan which I think very much makes the same point. It's a passage that I'm sure you know but I'll just read it for you. Gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. The moon does not get wet. Right? The moon is reflected in the water. There it is. You see it in the water. But the moon is not wet. And the water is not disturbed. There's the moon in the water and the water is just fine. It doesn't break the water like crush it or something. Although its light is extensive and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle

[33:37]

an inch across. The whole moon and the whole sky are reflected in the dew drop in the grass. Enlightenment does not disturb the person just as the moon does not disturb the water. A person does not hinder enlightenment just as the dew drop does not hinder the moon. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. So he quotes that in relation to this subtle, that image in relation to this subtle dynamic of total independence and total dependence. So, I think that's enough about that. So, anything that you want to make points about this I don't know how this is actually relates to anything that we know about our lives. Any questions? Anybody? How do the

[34:41]

Kāstānahāśī translations, where do they embrace? When they say, when they emerge they embrace all things, is that? Well, that's a pretty, as far as I can tell from the dictionary meaning of characters it's a little, it's an interpretive translation, but it's just, I mean it's merging, the idea of merging. That's the going around and around each other. He translates as embrace. But that's the side, of course, of the interdependence, right? All things are completely mingled with each other. There's no separation between the things. So, nothing is in its place, it's just mingled with everything else. Versus, on the other hand, everything being completely independent and holding its own place. And I remember the clear translation is

[35:42]

what is it? Interactive and non-interactive. When interacting they also merge. So instead of merge, Kāstānahāśī's embrace. Yes. So this poem is kind of like a long way saying we are all separate, all things are separate, yet one and we are comfortable with this paradox. Although, the word paradox I'm not sure about, because paradox is sort of it's a paradox, means, I can't relate to it, I mean, it's one of those things, right?

[36:42]

It's a paradox. But I think here the idea is that the fruit of our practice is to see that it's not a paradox. Logically, it's a paradox. It's a paradox in thinking, it's a paradox in speaking. But in living, it's not a paradox, it's a fact. It's the fact of our actual, of what our life really is. So we flow with that fact and we don't see it as a paradox. But often we do. For me, that's in applying this insight into everyday life, that's sort of the crux of it. When you kind of go through it, it does make sense, and also in sitting sometimes, or in unusual times, it'll also make sense. There'll be a powerful experience of oneness, but also

[37:44]

detachment, let's say. This sort of sounds like a cousin to this. But usually if I'm not sitting, if I'm just bustling around at the guest house or whatever, that resolution of the paradox, that fruit, is pretty elusive. Actually, I don't think about it much. But if I were to try to sum it up, you'd tell. What's to do about that? Is it just going to keep sitting and hope that it'll kind of rub off onto the everyday life part? I think that you're right, that in a way the sitting practice is there for us to really appreciate this as a true experience. In a way, you could say this poem is a discussion in verse

[38:46]

of the content of the experience that we have on our cushions. Because on our cushions, it becomes a reality for us. Sangha Kai is something that really becomes intimate. We can really see that when we focus our lives and enter Buddha's mind. We really see this. And I think that to have it bleed into the rest of our lives is our training. It takes time. I think somewhere here Suzuki Roshi says to really accept, he describes, at least as I understand his comment, he describes really integrating the truth of the Sangha Kai into your life, he describes as accepting the teaching. Really accepting the teaching. That's what he means. It's in your life. He said to really accept the teaching

[39:48]

may take a long time. And that's where, on one hand, one doesn't have to do it. One just practices and tries one's best and it just sort of comes into your life little by little. And on the other hand, you make a lot of effort. You make a lot of effort to notice how it is that you're being, the opposite of Sangha Kai is to be self-centered, right? Self-centered means I'm separate. I'm not connected to everything in the world. I'm separate. So therefore I'm busy about myself and therefore out of that self-centeredness comes all my anguish, all my suffering, all my pain. So in fact, the way that we study and awaken this in our daily life and practical experience is by studying our suffering. Studying all those instances in which we are upset about this or that and seeing how that

[40:49]

upsetness comes from our self-centeredness and studying that over and over again. In the meantime, we're continuing to appreciate the teaching, continuing to do whatever we can to let go of our holding on and then little by little we feel it. Little by little we actually begin to let go of a lot of the ways that we hold on or the ways that we're selfish and little by little begin to really enter into the experience and the real motivation in our lives that's not self but is connected to everything. We really begin to see that and when we find ourselves acting from a place which is not acknowledging our connection with everything we notice that, look at that, there I go. Well, that's not really true to the way things are and the way I want to live and the way I am living so let me just let go of that. Let me catch myself here and let go. And then we make those kind of efforts and you know with all these things going on at once and just life experiences come up right and we learn from our different crises

[41:50]

and our encounters and stuff like that and little by little it takes hold so that in a sense the deepest experience of this you could say is a peak experience of a lifetime that maybe you have once in a while a few times but the living of it the basing our life on the truth of it is a moment by moment affair you know so that's why we need I don't think we could appreciate it at all without zazen it seems to me and there probably are other things that are more or less the equivalent of zazen practice in which where we lose ourselves you know really lose our conventional egoistic self in something much bigger and zazen is a very systematic way and simple way of coming

[42:51]

to that, coming up to that limit and sometimes going beyond your limit a couple of things that you said during this time that make me feel like in here are like some very I guess sense of the core of what deep ecologists at the heart of the deep ecology movement but a couple of things that you mentioned like what Suzuki Roshi said about each thing having absolute value just because it is what it is inherently things have value like so sometimes it seems very abstract species or varieties you know things seem like why would you care about a spotted owl you know but we don't know their value in it just believing that they have just inherent value is enough

[43:53]

you know and the other thing I was talking about the totally interdependence of all things and yet the independence of things so all these things with inherent value and that they are all interdependent it's interesting to me that these were both very strong teachings as far as yeah I think I don't know that much about the movement of deep ecology movement but it seems like exactly the same thing to me in terms of philosophically yeah it really does and I think that if you read Dogen Zenji whose teaching is very much based on this Sando Kai like insight you really feel that and I've seen many people writing about deep ecology and quoting, they often quote Dogen but even more than Dogen they quote the Avatamsaka Sutra which is a very much the same kind of teaching

[44:53]

as the Sando, almost the same the interdependence of everything and the absolute independence of everything very much the same from reading Lao Tzu I also, I've wondered about this one phrase over and over again he says, know the light but keep to the dark and I have not been able to figure out really what he's meaning by that teaching to me in a sense it sounds like he's saying stick to the darkness which he's saying is not enlightenment but in another sense it means to me, like we know lightness or the realm of phenomenon and we also know the realm of oneness but to have the realm of oneness be in a sense our leader in knowing both of these worlds in a sense of like a guide to you know, not that it's better or worse but perhaps

[45:55]

you know if we stick to phenomenon too much then it seems like that world of delusion would end to a, it's more like down the wrong road and then to be completely just to oneness would be down the wrong road but to have oneness to be the guide in a sense over the phenomenon the realm of phenomenon that path in a more, I don't know, wholesome way or something like that, I don't know if that's true or not sure, I think just on a practical level to say, that's good advice because in the phenomenal world we get terribly upset about things that happen that are wrong and unjust and should be corrected but if we don't have a sense of the oneness of all things and the peacefulness already

[46:59]

of all things we can get also very overwrought over those things that we are trying to correct and therefore ineffective in correcting or easily discouraged or made hysterical or made angry or whatever so the only way to take care of the world of phenomenon and sustain that over time without being frustrated or confused is to appreciate the side of oneness so to appreciate for example that the person that I must oppose in defending or promoting what I think is right is non-different from myself is not my enemy that's very different from us having a strong

[48:00]

dislike and demonizing the person that I must oppose this is not an easy thing imagine how can we disagree and oppose one another where we feel it's necessary without feeling that the other person is not worthy of respect and not any different and not different from us the same as us in fact if we had the conditions that that other person has we would probably be in their shoes because they're just like we are but we happen to be in this karmic position so we go forward this is to me a very subtle and difficult and this is advanced training I always say to me politics is advanced Zen training very difficult and politics is

[49:02]

not just who's running for president but any time that we are negotiating together when two people negotiate anything it's already politics right and this is why it's such a challenge to a big temple like this and run a temple and get into all the things we get into together and try to do it with clarity and kindness very difficult, easy to get caught very difficult yes Sandokaya is beyond the experience of oneness so oneness does imply also the experience of interconnectedness doesn't it mhm so Sandokaya goes also beyond the experience of interconnectedness because interconnectedness and I'm completely connected to everything in the universe and I'm completely alone so put both of those

[50:04]

together, Sandokaya this is this famous saying of the Buddha, now we can understand in a more sophisticated way, when Buddha says did you ever think of this when he's born and he points to the heaven and the earth and he says in all the heaven and all the earth I alone am the world honored one and you think geez what an arrogant son of a just born he's the big shot what kind of guy is that well it's in this sense I'm the only one I am the world honored one and that's true for everything everyone I was having a long discussion back and forth with a friend I think I might have mentioned it either in this class or in the Hokyazana class the issue of kingship, being a king did I talk about that it was in a lecture the mythology

[51:05]

in the Buddhist sutras over and over again is the Buddha as a king there's a whole thing over and over again repeated about a king and all the characteristics of a worldly king and that the Buddha is a king in the dharma realm even more impressive than a worldly king and I always was bothered by that imagery gee that's really strange and then I realized that this is what everybody's sovereignty this is my friend who was writing a book where he was using a fairy tale that has to do with sovereignty as that every person this is the deepest wish this was his when he was writing the book that everybody's deepest wish and this is the bird and the fairy tale everybody's deepest wish is for sovereignty

[52:05]

to be absolutely worthwhile in and of themselves not because somebody validates them not because they're rich or this or that but just as the person that they are just nakedly the person that they are that they have true value and true autonomy sovereignty and that's what sovereignty that's the meaning of kingship the king is the only one who has that and everybody else's role flows from the sovereignty of the king and the king gets his sovereignty from the gods so that's the way cosmology works and all over the world they have kings that was the whole idea of theocracy that's how it was the theory so that's what it means each one is

[53:06]

complete because we can feel oh no I'm dependent on everything so I'm like a cypher I don't really matter I'm insignificant I'm just a little cog interdependence you can read as we're all just a cog in a big wheel a cog in a big machine so we don't really matter so what I think doesn't really matter what I do doesn't really matter I'm just a tiny little part in this vast universe why does anything that I do matter why should you be of any concern but no I'm a cog in a wheel but I'm absolutely at the center of the machine so everything that I do does matter absolutely matters that's the two sides isn't that also the whole point of Zazen? to realize that exactly isn't that also the whole point of Zazen to realize that it's like the dialogue you just had

[54:06]

how does that relate in relation to if everything is these two dualistic these two extremes maybe they're dualistic and it seems like everything is perfect as it is yet empty but how do we as human beings we see suffering and we see some causative suffering and want to do something about that you're saying that if we just stop it if we go to the root of that cause of suffering within ourselves we can it doesn't stop everyone else's suffering necessarily so traditionally you know you have monks in a monastery that they don't necessarily go out into the world they stay studying that so how does that relate into having a deep sense of wanting to change things or do we have to change things

[55:10]

well as I was saying before I think that when you appreciate interdependence love wells up in your heart and you hate to see suffering others suffering so you want to do something to stop that suffering and you do but you see also the other side the oneness of things and the rightness of things and that's what sustains your effort to end suffering so in other words you make an effort to end suffering out of love without expectation so you keep trying you fail you keep trying you fail more you keep trying it doesn't matter you might feel grief you might feel various personal failure issues of failure around that and so on but you let go of those and you just keep going on

[56:13]

so it's understanding that everything is already taken care of that enables you to continuously forever keep addressing suffering and you appreciate that monks in their monasteries for those people who are called to that that is a way also a powerful way so you don't say those bums sitting in there on their butts they should be getting up and doing everything just like me no you say this is what I'm given to and this is what I must do and I understand that they're doing what they can do we're all doing what we can do I have nobody in the world that I can condemn even the person that I'm opposing as I said a minute ago because I feel that that person is causing this suffering even that person I don't really have no will to it I just think that they don't really understand what they're doing

[57:15]

so I try my best to educate them and prevent them from causing harm and so on and so on but I don't hate them so that's I think a religious point of view on dealing with suffering and it's exemplified by many great people like Gandhi or people say that Mother Teresa is like that many many sort of unnamed great religious people who have given their lives particularly the Catholics because of their strong personal relationship to the suffering of Jesus as a personal relationship there are many stories of unbelievably courageous and faithful people who have literally devoted their whole lives and died in the process of trying to help the poor or help underprivileged people a lot of stories like that and that's something that I think we could aspire to more as Buddhists to that sort of thing

[58:16]

so how do they do that? How do they go out there and have very little of themselves and yet constantly give to others? Well they have a faith they have a serenity that enables them to sustain that that comes from their practice I was just going to say that in the dialogue between Robert Aiken and Brother David they bring this up they were saying that Christians have historically been more active in addressing the suffering in the world and that Buddhists could definitely pick it up a little well that's what's happening I think there's a lot of interest in the Buddhist world in the West and in the East as well because there's interest in the West yes

[59:20]

I was wondering you have this quote unquote adversary who you are one with but you at this point don't feel that oneness do you advocate pretend or say well talking in that manner but not feeling it or do you wait until your feeling is is one with that because like many there's suggestions like smile and then soon happiness will come to you yeah well I think that is a very much to me that's a very much situational thing in other words I don't think there's a general approach to that kind of thing most of the time you can't wait until you're completely enlightened before you do anything you kind of end up having to do a whole bunch of things in the meantime

[60:21]

so in that case you do what you can, do your best and you understand you try to understand what is the difference between selfishness and selflessness and what's the difference between an accurate vision and a distorted vision and you try as much as possible to have an accurate vision and where your vision is distorted know that it's distorted and if you have to keep going forward anyway doing what you do, knowing that your vision is distorted well you do your best I know that I feel that I'm off here but I have to do something so I'm going to have to go ahead with this the best I can and try to practice with it I find that many say one thing and maybe their heart's not in it and I kind of feel a sort of falseness about that you know we're all one but the actions are different it's like walking to the top well deception

[61:23]

is never a good idea on the other hand Buddhism is a kind of training so sometimes in training you may say things to yourself that maybe aren't true but that you intend that you'd like to be true so when you recite the verse of confession maybe it's not true that you are now avowing all your ancient twisted karma at this moment but when you chant that verse you're really saying well I would like to do that and I'm making that effort to do that you know what I mean so there is that for example you mentioned about smiling the practice of smiling is a good practice it does change your life actually if you try I do that, my son one of my sons for some reason was really into that practice years ago although he learned it from Thich Nhat Hanh but he used to do that

[62:24]

when I'm in a bad mood I smile a lot and I find that it helps so I often do that it does help but you're not feeling it so you smile even though you're not feeling it and then pretty soon you find and why do you do that? to convince somebody else that you're really happy to deceive yourself you know you're not happy but you smile because you think to indulge my unhappiness is bad for me and bad for others so I would aspire to try to lighten up my mind if possible if I smile maybe that will work that will help I smile a lot, I feel a little better so that was good and there's many things like that if you're full of hatred you really are full of hatred and you know that and you're not trying to kid anybody you're not trying to kid yourself or kid anybody else well that's a really good time to recite various verses of love

[63:24]

not to try to make anybody think that you're a better person than you are not to fool yourself but because your aspiration is not to be full of hatred and since you are you try to apply an antidote and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't maybe we should get back to the text for a few minutes because at this rate we may never one last question would you please go from the top with a really simplistic paraphrasing interpretation of these lines that we just did well the lines we did last week ok well that might be a nice way to end the class so we can start from the beginning let's just review up to here and after all if we don't go through the whole poem that's alright

[64:27]

why should we worry about this the mind is a great sage of the land of India in other words Buddha's mind the mind that's totally peaceful and accepting that mind has been mutually entrusted and intimately entrusted between east and west it's been transmitted it's been handed down in a mutual way with trust, intimately between east and west basically people can be sharp or dull people differ in their capacities in their intellect, in their faithfulness

[65:29]

in their physical strength in their mental, emotional strength but there are no southern or northern ancestors but the teaching is one there aren't any superior or inferior teachings there's only the truth of our lives together and even though people might differ in their faculties that's rather a minor thing compared to the unity in the teaching that is in each person the spiritual source shines clear and bright in the world of phenomena the source of all things is there for all to see the branching streams flow in the darkness and the world of phenomena is also

[66:31]

the world of oneness the differences that we perceive all fold back into the one all agitation all confusion is actually already peaceful attaching to phenomena is based on delusion this is delusion to grab on to phenomena which are after all really all one and non-different from each other and inherently ungraspable to try to attach to these phenomena is itself delusion but sticking to oneness isn't enlightened either because when we stick to oneness it isn't really oneness we have to live our lives in a fluid way

[67:34]

and in a ready way for whatever comes and sticking to oneness, oneness becomes a kind of blinder becomes a kind of ideology our five senses and the objective world are interdependent and independent our subjectivity and the objectivity of the world are mutually dependent on each other we really don't have any existence at all apart from our radical connection with everything and yet we're independent there's only us in the whole universe

[68:36]

the interdependence that we live in with all creatures extends everywhere through the whole universe and yet we and each thing just is in its own place where we are right now is the only place to be we don't have to wish we were somewhere else or doing something else wherever we are that's where the entire drama of the Buddha is enacted at all times only in that place that's as far as we got is that helpful? that's the kind of thing that we kind of keep going over in a way the poem is saying the same thing over and over again so as we read the poem we're going to be off and going through the same territory I wonder if you could say something more

[69:39]

about that last part about which interacting they all submerge otherwise they remain in their own place it's not clear to me how that's helpful to what's the point of that how does that describe our consciousness let me read you again Suzuki Roshi's translation of those lines because it could be that Claire's translation is not as helpful our five senses this is the one I just read our five senses and the objective world are interdependent and independent and this interdependence goes everywhere and it stays only in its own place so I think that somewhere he uses the image of a glass of water

[70:41]

and he says let's see if I can get this right he says that so the point is we need to drink if so the water and the cup are absolutely different from one another there's no, I mean the water is just totally different from the cup they almost exist in two different universes each one is totally independent of the other but when we pour the water into the cup the water becomes useful and the cup becomes useful, the cup comes to life by virtue of its relationship to the water and the water comes to life by virtue of its relationship to the cup and we drink so the water and the cup are totally independent of each other and yet

[71:44]

totally dependent on each other in order for us to drink so that's his example for illustrating how things are at one at the same time completely independent and completely dependent and that's what's being pointed to in these lines the fact that I'm saying this over and over in various ways the fact that the thought that I'm thinking right now which I view as my personal thought my inner life or me is in fact both produced by everything in the universe right now and also influencing everything in the universe right now and if I appreciate that I have a different relation to the thought

[72:46]

that's now arising in my mind I don't take it personally and at the same time the whole universe is included in that thought so I am I can maybe like this I can take that thought absolutely seriously without grasping it the interdependence of that thought the fact that everything produces that thought and that thought goes back to everything prevents me from holding it because I see it's not holdable on the other hand, realizing that the whole universe is contained in that thought I must take it seriously so I don't ignore my thought so that's the practical application in other words, this is describing an actual kind of attitude that we have to bring to bear in our living in our practicing which is a different way of holding things than the usual way which is I am me and I need to look out for myself and this thought

[73:48]

that I want this or that I have to take very seriously and pursue my interests and so on and so forth so this is a whole different way of looking at is that helpful to you? Yes When you were reading these lines, this image came up for me to understand it I'm here dispersing and embracing all things and what picture came up is like walking if you were walking through a jungle and how you would be so completely alert and actually all of you would be kind of taking in everything in a way I was feeling like what happens is like the self feels threatened and it's not like your eyes become ears in a way all things are working together to take everything in and yet they each have their own field but somehow together it incorporates

[74:48]

all the object field whatever that's coming in so you have a unified relationship they're all informing so you're speaking here specifically of the issue of the senses themselves interacting because I think when you talked about each sense field merged, like everything is tuned in but they didn't become the other is that? yeah I mean part of in this case is the whole issue of consciousness itself and how it works and what's at the basis of it and how we perceive the world and how we perceive it in a way that creates suffering and how we can perceive it in a way that reduces suffering I have one other question when you were exchanging with Andy you said how everything was already taken care of and you

[75:51]

mentioned the enemy, like your enemy is yourself and I thought maybe it sounded like it was taken care of like it was in the past and maybe if I would think of it as being taken care of like we're all part of the taking care of so that the two sides what seems like opposing things in the process of finding or taking care of something it seemed as if it was more in the present like whatever I was doing was actually part of whatever anybody was doing part of being time in a way instead of been I don't know if that's if I'm understanding you correctly which I may or may not be if I'm understanding you correctly I see someone suffering

[76:53]

and I rush to help them so what I'm saying is if I'm going to be able to do that with presence of mind and kindness and really be helpful I think that I need to accept their suffering and not accept it the not accepting part gets me off my to go do something that's my human, I'm a human being I don't stand by when someone else is suffering that's the nature of this creature but also I'm a Buddha so I accept the suffering as perfect as it is and so I do something and if their suffering is reduced I'm happy and I know that someone else right at that same moment is suffering

[77:56]

I don't forget that so I go on in that way doing what I can endlessly that's the part in the suffering already that's the acceptance that's the acceptance this is a hard point to appreciate and we anguish a lot over this point and we have to because we're human because if we blindly say everybody is suffering but that's fine because it's already taken care of so I'm not worried, I don't really care we should anguish over that this should be very difficult for us to understand and we should eat our heart out of it but we have no choice but to throw ourselves trying to understand that over and over because otherwise we will be eaten alive by human suffering we will not be able to we will have two choices either open our hearts and perish or close our hearts we won't be able to stand it

[78:59]

and what we have to do as practitioners is we have to open our hearts and sustain it and not only sustain it but be of service to others the only way we can do this as far as I can tell is to deal with this koan I accept suffering and I can't accept suffering we have to bring up that koan all the time and constantly study it well, last question and then we have to go bow what I find so especially interesting in the sanuka is that the essence of it is activity and the way how this activity gets described is by like describing what it's

[80:01]

not yet that it's not just the smelling that it's the smelling but also not the smelling and going forth and back there's some kind of third activity or something else arising which is an activity which is completely just in your time which has just the time at the side which is the force that lets you move that brings you really to the point where you are active do you know what I mean? maybe I know what you mean I see I see which is great so that I see maybe it sounds like what I think, what I feel from what you said anyway even if I don't understand that somehow in the activity

[81:05]

of trying to practice with the sandokai we are released to the world and the world works through us so we feel like something else is going on besides me and me not doing this something takes over our lives and that's a beautiful thing that's a liberating thing and you look like you're liberated to think about it so that's good ok shall we chant the sandokai one in the many engaged one in the many the great sage of india chants the energy of civilization in the east and west although there are differences in personality it goes beyond southern coordinates the crystal of the roots forest shines brightly in its branches creating darkness attaching it to things

[82:05]

in solution or in success this is not yet enlightenment all objects meet and still emerge yet don't merge with one another when they merge they embrace all things otherwise they remain in their own place forms vary in shape sounds vary in tone the heart is fenced by or long or bright it separates with it memory the four great elements gather by nature just as the clouds collide with our bodies air moves water with earth solid ice deforms in your seat and the lotus flocks over the dawn of day each function generates branches and leaves reverberates mutilating transmutation both true and false are expressed through art there is darkness don't treat it as mere darkness blackened darkness there is brightness don't regard it as mere brightness brightness and darkness anticipate each other just as one put all together things in themselves after achieving them

[83:07]

according to God they already work and things are as they are the living flocks realizing that there has been an error when it comes to words you must understand their true meaning don't set up arbitrary standards if you don't see the path then it's dry, follow your feet know the way, moving forward isn't a question of where you are when you're lost, mountains and rivers block your way, please let me remind you, spending and consuming all of your time is running fast, don't ignore it we often inherit of our study in choosing this for the enlightenment of all beings glorious generations three times holy

[84:09]

glorious generations three times holy glorious

[84:48]

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