I think we make it complicated for ourselves, instead of simply being happy. I know a friend of mine once said this to me, where I talked about a painful experience, because I no longer had something, and she then said to me, Mara, you once had it in your life, do you know what a gift that is? There are people who die and have never experienced it. These are things that came to me this afternoon. You can't describe some things. You can't tell what they mean. I know when it comes to hearing, there are some voices or voices that trigger something inside of me. I don't know if I should take that into account. I can't. And they don't always do that. They do it differently. I don't know why we always have this compulsion to always want to name everything.

[01:06]

And I just want to feel or feel to name. It's so difficult. You have to agree on so many terms. One understands and feels something different than the other. For one it is more negative, for the other it is positive. And that can change all the time. When I feel these flies, they don't annoy me. But then there is another feeling that I find pleasant. But sometimes I don't care about the flies. I notice that now too. But it's always the same or the same. I have a problem with the same and the same. What I also miss a bit is the spontaneity. I thought it was very good that you were like that. It was very acceptable for me. Your experiences. I think you shouldn't force anyone.

[02:10]

If someone doesn't want to talk, they shouldn't have to. We don't do that. Not yet. Not yet. But I would like to say something about the question of why you have to answer it or why you should answer it, because it is so difficult and so difficult. There is also a great desire in it, but not a great desire. For me it is not a problem. I also find it very adventurous, infinitely exciting. I don't have any sense for classical music at all. Beethoven's Seventh Symphony. I still haven't figured it out. It's so intense, a certain part in this symphony, that sometimes I can't bear to hear it.

[03:13]

And I think it's an infinitely exciting question for me. Why is it like that? And I'm sure many of you know that. Why... certain rows of tones, something so incredible in us, and others not. They are... Yes, also questions where you can playfully deal with it and say, okay, yes, I sense something there, you can leave it as it is. Sometimes it's also good to leave it as it is, but sometimes it's just very exciting and very loving to go on and really want to find out what it is. And with words there is the same thing. There are also certain poems that I... very strongly.

[04:15]

Can I answer that again? Please, go ahead. One thing is that Rostock, like Raffenberg, When there is a seminar, it's always difficult, you don't notice it at the beginning, you try to find the words, because it doesn't always come to the mood. And he himself said in the seminar, it's so difficult to talk about it so often, because the words then somehow become dead in the mouth. And he has to somehow get through it, somehow get the feeling into what he is talking about. And it's kind of like speaking to the more. And for example in my last seminar, it was a similar feeling for me, it was a very difficult seminar for me, because there was a lot of talking about something.

[05:23]

And then you somehow, from your meditation, told me something. And I thought, that's an ugly word, but it's very authentic. There is a feeling that God has come along. That is, when they talk about something, it's not just in itself, yes, something is produced, yes, in the mind, yes, exactly as Tuner thinks, yes. And why does a certain sequence of notes in a simple symphony break something out? Because it is not a sequence of notes, but a feeling of Beethoven. where Beethoven's tones are used to express it. That's how it works for me. I don't know if it's mathematics or music. But something is being transmitted. Just like you, when you speak from the street, from the alley. Not from the alley,

[06:25]

the street that is in you, the street that is actually alive in you. And in seminars we often just ... and it's not difficult for all of us, it's a step to take where you don't talk about something, but talk about yourself and talk about what you experience. And then you have to ask yourself how others would feel about it. For Roshik, it's definitely a concept. It's not a problem. You just play it on a table, you just play it when the thing comes to an end, where the whole thing is simple, where you can create the feeling through the language or with the language, the feeling or the speech. And you can feel how the voice is getting quieter and how the movements are getting more and more silent.

[07:41]

And you know, now it takes longer and longer. Exactly. And that's somehow created by this speaking in English. Yes, I asked him again if this purely practical teaching, which he had been doing for years, the back in this way, the hands in this way, if he wasn't tired sometimes. And if he repeated it over and over again. And he said, why repeat? I say it every time for the first time. Otherwise it wouldn't work, he said. And that's really the case. I believe so too. Because he really doesn't have any tiredness or boredom in it. And it's this kind of freshness to come back for the first time. And I think there's also the part where you can train it a little bit, also in encounters with people.

[08:43]

When you already know him so well and know all of his flaws, to meet him for the first time, to wake up this feeling. How long has it been since I've met this person for the first time? And suddenly a whole new world of feelings appears. I'm a little embarrassed. The thing with the sword, I think that's stupid. If she is there, she is there. We sit here together and talk. We are just there and we try, everyone who participates, tries to say something in his own way and to bring it to a conclusion. And if it goes better, Let's make it better.

[09:46]

Let's not make it difficult for us. Who can do it should do it. I'm in favor of that. I think that to say afterwards that it's not difficult or that it's as stupid as we like it to be, that's difficult. That bothers me, because then I have the feeling, oh, now we're back to being incomplete. Let's make it different. If it's possible to talk about these things like Roshi, then we can do it. But I think... I don't either. I don't either. It's good. But for me, it's there. I don't know. It's such a... Tell me something. It's just damn beautiful. And Roschi is a super Roschi and he jumps on the bodhisattva and I say to myself, that was not good or that didn't work for me.

[10:48]

And he says, if I talk about it so often, then it's very difficult. then the words are like death in my mouth. That is, this is his experience, yes, that it is the experience that the words are like death in the mouth. And that he can get over this, that he can get over this, yes, that is, this is a process, and what does it mean afterwards? We are not afterwards, afterwards it would be, we are in the broadcast, or we are in the kitchen, we are always in the seminar. That is, this is a process, yes, first it was like this, and now it is like this. And I opened the whole thing up. It doesn't mean that it's bad, but it's a certain step in the process. What I said was an attempt to open up a lot of things, to explore different levels, to take in different words, different levels in which we can talk to each other, yes, and this somehow flows very deeply, yes, and just as the conversation is going on now,

[12:13]

It is somehow spontaneous, but it is somehow in the soul, in the body, in the body, you know, yes. It is not that one is worse than the other, one is appropriate at a certain time and the other is appropriate at a different time, I don't know. But it was so that you wanted to run out, and I heard that, and I had the feeling that an atmosphere had been created there, which was so oppressive that there was no room for you, which pushed you out of the room. But that's when you ... No, that's when I breathe, when I breathe. I would say that something has come back to me, where I have noticed that it makes me a little nervous, because I have the feeling that we may have to endure this difficulty in order to get in with this thing. To be honest, he didn't run away.

[13:26]

We'll have to wait and see. He would have said something. I can understand that it annoys you. But I think it's important that these points come together. Because the feeling is there. I also had that feeling. But at the same time I have the need to stay here and to try it out. And in a phase of the set-up, the difficult, the difficult, to stop it. But besides that, there's really the other side. I think it's quite good to be able to to stick to each other and to see how something develops out of it. I don't think there are thoughts like that at all here in the Kuhn, yes. This is an organic opening, yes, that you make. This is not something that I make. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because different people with different capabilities come together and talk to each other.

[14:35]

And I don't like what you said and I don't like what you said. And the difficult thing is, what should I say in German, because I can't say anything at all. You have a completely different touch now. I don't know if you feel it in yourself. The first time you formulated it, it was more in the sense of, it's hard, where I spontaneously gave you the right, I noticed that too, it's a certain heaviness there. And in me it was more this feeling, hey, why actually? There's no reason for that. It's just... It's interesting. But if you say, I'd rather run away, it's more of a feeling of accusation. If you say, I'd rather run away because I felt I couldn't get in there. Is this a completely different standpoint from the one you came from?

[15:38]

I would like to say something briefly. I mean, how I came to the feeling is, on the one hand, I mean, I really appreciate how the teacher did it, just to expose these things, to make these things available, yes, then I try to get into it and somehow I notice that it doesn't work. But then I hear others talking about it and I think, well, that's good for them, That's how it is. And for me it doesn't work, so I stay still. And yes, the point is somehow, something else is possible, yes. You say, something else is possible at any moment. When is the moment to say, okay, well, aside from you, something else has to come or something. That's the question. So somehow just leaving the room as it was, yes, that's also somehow worth it. That's also somehow something And then to destroy that by saying, I can't start with that, you don't find yourself happy with that.

[16:42]

I think that's also a point. Look, there is the situation, Dieter helped me with that. And there are people who talk about it. And if you can't start with that, you have two options. and you think, okay, they're talking about it, that's good for them, I'll listen to it, and okay, I'll leave it at that. It can go on, either you... You want to run away, but you don't know. Or you interrupt it and say, I don't care, please do something else. Then maybe you should have a good suggestion. If that's not the case, then it's a difficult thing. That's what I mean. I think so too. I don't like at all that things become easy. But there has to be someone who does it right away. It can be that it is difficult.

[17:45]

Everything is difficult. I want to say that there must be someone who continues things so that they become easier when they should become easier. But I found it very nice that you said that. That's exactly what I mean. I don't think you can turn back and say, but it was quite difficult, and it was so that I almost wanted to leave, and it also opens the way there, because it has now become so, but I'm just showing now that it has annoyed me a bit, because there is really a kind of resistance in it, and I'm interested in whether you can continue the conversation so that it becomes easy, without looking back and saying, Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes, but the problem is always that when you have a different ... a contradiction, it's always something like, how should we refer to the other? I mean, it's clearly in a distortion.

[18:45]

I know what I mean, for example, we are in the States and we have discussed about how this sitting day should take place, yes, and then you brought up this question And it's about dealing with it. And it's about dealing with it in a way that we don't really introduce to everyone. Because you say, we should not sit at the table, we should do this and that. And I think, well, actually it's not like that. And now you always have to make the decision, how do I get into this discussion and destroy this and then create even more uncertainty about it and then it has to be discussed for even longer. There is always something disturbing in the video, yes, and also something about not accepting what the other person says, and also something disturbing.

[19:52]

So then the question is, should I go to the theater break? I mean, that's a bit too hard for me now, I'll make a lighter record and so on. I mean, you could also... No, I mean, the others can be who they want to be. Can't you take the step... That's what I want from myself. Can't you take the step to support Dieter in his cause? or those who speak, does it have to be a counter-proposal? Isn't there a way to pick it up and carry it on? Or to pick it up and take it to another level? As you describe it, it's a bit polar. There are different positions and you have to deal with it. But the problem I have is I don't see any other way, I just see that there is some kind of ... ... and that is what is difficult for me, I am somehow involved in the way to go here or that to go there, but that is also communication to say, that is allowed communication to say I would like to go out,

[21:07]

She makes me lonely all the time. I think she makes me lonely all the time. From this feeling. Do you understand? You immediately grasp the outsider position. I mean, you open something through it. That's clear. That's what every good outsider does. He opens a process in the group as something new, as something interesting. The question is whether you find your way there, that is, to get to this more authentic feeling within yourself. Do you understand what I mean? I find it somehow strange now, because I mean, there is a situation when you try to change it and you can't do it the way Christian suggests. but rather thematize it, then I somehow do it on the outside.

[22:25]

I mean, I think that's a high challenge. I think that's a high challenge, I think that's a good ability and I wish I could do that too. But there are situations where I can just say stop. And when I say stop, I think that's good, because it would have been possible for me to stay seated and not say anything. That would have been absolutely in there. I mean, that wouldn't have happened to me either. I could have lived with it. I would have thought, okay, I'm better in this situation, I was better in feeling than in speaking. And it wouldn't have been possible for me to talk about that. That would have been okay for me. But I also find it important, when I use myself as an antennae, To find out what happens in the group or what happens for me in the group, it was important for me to just bring it in so that it somehow sticks to me.

[23:27]

I don't know. I find it difficult now to grasp what has happened. Well, I think what Frank has said is simply something that has a lot to do with our practice for me, and that it is a difficult thing, and that it is an ability that can be acquired or that is not easy to acquire, I think so too, and I can take it that way for myself and say but it is good to do it that way. For me this is such a ... You know, I agree with the analysis, it is crazy, I can also say, yes, it is a bit difficult, it is true. It is not difficult either. I would like to hear something from those who do not say anything.

[24:39]

I think sometimes you need a little time. That's what I noticed. And then somehow, if you think about it briefly, that's what I noticed. I don't know. Maybe next time you'll just say earlier. I think it was quite in time. It was 20 minutes. What does that mean? It was 25 minutes. There was a possibility to pull it out. No, it's really... That's a process. And I have to say, I don't know what the setting is anymore. What did the top ones think about how it should work? What's going on? This is now a talk from you, yes, that is, the whole idea is that you speak.

[25:55]

Then after two minutes you open the room for others. And then all the high spirits spoke. The warm-up coach. Exactly. I don't think he said anything, but actually there was a need to go there. All right. No, it was totally good. I think it's great, also with the overturning in that sense. I mean, a seminar that is really difficult for me is when it's over after 20 minutes and no one really says anything and then comes the consideration. Yes, maybe we should go and do it now, or what could we do? I mean, to throw it in like that and to say, and to trigger a different process again, I think, I think it's good.

[27:02]

I don't know. [...] I think a kiss is a good word to give something from me. Although I didn't exclude myself from the feeling that I wasn't there now. I think it's a good suggestion, but maybe sometimes I had the feeling that it was a bit high for me. I don't think saying anything doesn't mean defending yourself.

[28:41]

And for me it is at some point that I am in such a process. I think I have to, or I want to, learn what I feel, to express it. And I can't do that at the moment. But I learn a lot from you by simply being here. and hear and feel what it tells you and how many possibilities there are. And oh yes, there is something new again and I haven't thought about that yet. And that's very beautiful and very enriching, I think. Yes, I also wanted to say something.

[30:37]

For me it was always two processes running through me. One is the normal observation of group processes like norming, forming, storming, and so on, all those things, and who goes into the omega position, that is, into this position, who is in the alpha position, and somewhere this is a space where it is simply about such things that, what you said, Dieter, then it is very difficult for me to get back to my normal speaking skills and just say something, because the room is really different from what I am usually used to being in it.

[31:44]

I'm often confused, I feel a little blocked. But it's also very interesting. And then you have to say something on the tongue, to report something from my practice, from my experiences. But that's very difficult at the moment. I think some of the settings, what has arisen, this feeling of weight and so on,

[33:52]

The reason is that the talk that I gave does not come directly from an experience or that the experience is more of a side area for me. So a little bit of what I hinted at with eating Oryoke, but that it is more from, how shall I say, from a visual point of view or from a mental point of view, and there is a certain refinement in words and a historical background, but I don't think that it is what we spoke about somewhere after we spoke about the speech, something like that with a direct experience, that it is what is somehow or something else, but it is more like a fabric that is usually still quite tightly packed, so in this short lecture there were three or four dialogue separations that could be held up against each other, and that is there, and then there is a kind of strange kind of fan, maybe also

[35:15]

I don't know if that's the right word, but it's like an aspiration in the air. And I found the last part very refreshing, because I'm often in this captivity, a little bit of myself, and I notice that something is not right, but I can't get out of it. I just can't... in a way, how shall I put it, convey or make authentic or wake up in that moment. I have memories of certain experiences. They are more or less alive, but they are often also very fine and in a way very silent. Only because I can speak, I try to choose a little bit and become quieter with my voice, I don't really get this experience back.

[36:25]

And often they also have such a, how should I say, they are come from an idea that simply does not exist in a seminar. If you can come to a seminar with a very mild idea, you might be able to do it in the evening, but not in the afternoon in a seminar with so many people. Yeah. Somehow I have been able to reflect on what you have just said. I often go to a Roshi seminar where I feel that something is going on, but at the same time I feel that I cannot enter it, that I cannot understand it, and then I simply do nothing, I do nothing in the sense that I do not try something or drill an entrance, but simply

[37:32]

I try to remain seated and to remain open, and sometimes I notice that it just doesn't work. And then I would, if the conversation went on like that for longer, and I would listen to it, I would just stand up and pray, or I would say something which requires a connection point for me. Yes, there is this possibility, ideally to connect it in such a way that it brings it in a certain direction, but then I have to be somewhere in it or have the feeling somewhere that I have already hit something, and now I can start from there and say it in the direction I want. If I don't have it yet, then I have to speak from that position, as I feel it with you, just from a situation, I just come in now. And that I am also completely legitimate and now I find myself refreshed.

[38:38]

I have to answer that briefly. You can now put it all on your shoulders. I just have to say, unfortunately, your presentation was good. I thought it was well-spoken. Now it's very personal for me. The choir immediately appeared. with the, what do you call it, the eyebrows, and with the pearl in the mountain, the shape, and they are both two very important symbols for me, and that worked. So it was triggered by your preaching, the dialogues that you heard, and that was all. I'm also very happy that you did that. It was part of it. It's connected to each other. If you did it differently, it would have gone differently. I think it's great that you're trying to put it into words. That's the first thing. If that wasn't there, it would be a genius.

[39:54]

I think it's really good to try more of these speeches. And to get to this freshness, which is different for everyone. If I was supposed to have one, I would have another. This lively speaking. I notice that I yearn to speak vividly. Not just now, or when it fits well, or in jokes. ...ironical stories, but also when it's serious, when it's about something. And that's exactly what Schritt wants to do. Erich said something to me today that I think also fits very well with this seminar. Somehow, that we are so in touch with each other in this practice, in this month of practice, and that it has something liberating. It is not the feeling that you have no direction and it is somehow uncertain, but it is still, Gerald and Gisela are gone, Ruscha is not there, it is somehow such a

[41:04]

It's a free situation. It's a situation where you feel it's being changed a little bit. When Gerald is here on the road, you don't have to think much. It's more open and it's kind of like a button. And it's somehow... I find it very... very... It makes me very awake. And... And this seminar has made it clear to me. I mean, we all tap, everyone in their role, whether it's as a director or as a seminar leader. And I think that's great. I appreciate the tapping that takes place. That's certainly a nervous process. And I think it's good that we can have such seminars together.

[42:13]

That just reminded me of the fact that the parents are practically out of the house. Yes, but that's what it is. Let's go, Tass. Tastfreie Würde. I think it's like that. You have to decide, you have to decide. I don't want to say that I can't do anything about it. I think it's clear that certain things are not discussable.

[43:18]

Someone has to decide. It doesn't matter if it's the right or the wrong decision. But you can't leave it in a group process. You have to let it run.

[43:25]

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