Well, I've had a sore throat for the past couple of days, so I asked Alan to do the Bodhisattva ceremony, and I will do the talk. Today, I wanted to talk about the pros and cons of religion. We tend to think of religion as being something good, if you're religious. If you're not, you think of it as something not so good. And both is correct. Last Saturday I talked about good and evil, the meaning of good and evil.

[01:30]

And then Stan said, well, is there such a thing as evil? Well, there's only such a thing as evil if there's such a thing as good. This brings us to the basic story in Judeo-Christian religion. of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, which is, I won't say it's a Buddhist story, but it has Buddhist overtones, and seen from a Buddhist perspective, it's a very interesting story. Because originally, Adam and Eve were living in the Garden of Eden, where there was no knowledge of good and evil.

[02:41]

In other words, living in the realm of non-duality. And he said, but don't eat, you can eat all this fruit, all the various fruits hanging on these trees, but don't eat this one, which is right in the center. Otherwise, you will die. And so Eve got curious and she talked to the serpent and the serpent said, oh, you know, like these are wonderful fruits. You know, if you eat them, you'll be very wise and so forth. They're really good." So she said, well, okay. And so she took a bite out. She was very adventurous. She took a bite and gave Adam a bite. And they said, oh, this is great stuff.

[03:44]

But then, bingo. They saw, you don't have any clothes on. And neither do you. And so their eyes were opened. So, what does it mean that their eyes were opened? That's an interesting statement, their eyes were opened. In other words, there's something that they could see. So, it seems like they suddenly realized their analytical mind, the mind that What's that word?

[04:49]

Discriminating mind. They discovered their discriminating mind. But before that, They didn't have the discriminating mind. Kind of like the baby. I think this is a story of how one comes into the world. One comes into the world without discrimination, simply as is, seeing things as they are. So as a child, we just see things as a baby. We just see things as they are, without discriminating and without knowledge. And as we begin to grow, we eat of that apple of discrimination, and then we distinguish one thing from another, and we compare one thing to another. then we evaluate things depending on that discrimination.

[05:54]

And we say, this is better than this, this is worse than this, this is high, low, and so forth. And we orient ourselves around this discriminating mind. And then we divide into good and bad. So this discriminating mind seems to be because of most problems. But it's good and it's bad. We need to discriminate in order to live in this world in a reasonable way. We have to know the difference between the dish and the food in the dish. We don't eat the dish, we eat the food. So we have to discriminate between one thing and another. But at the same time, our discriminating mind is also the basis of losing our true way.

[07:07]

Because we depend so much on the discriminating mind, we lose our intuition. Intuition is, you might say that Adam and Eve were living in the intuitive world. Intuitive means directly connected. So discrimination takes us a step back into our mind, into our discriminating mind, into our divisive mind. the mind of partiality. And as soon as the mind of partiality begins to discriminate, we lose that connection, that direct connection. And we think in terms of images, mental images. And then we create a world of fantasy. So to get, you know, and the Lord said,

[08:13]

you're kicked out of this garden and you can't come back. And he set up guards to see that they wouldn't get back. That's interesting. But he didn't count on Buddhism. No offense. Buddhism is the practice of reestablishing yourself, ourselves, in the garden. And letting go of the dualistic mind in order to be wholesome. And, of course, this is what Zazen practice is. Zazen practice is actually, you could say, reestablishing yourself in the Garden of Eden without creating duality, stepping outside of the realm of duality, letting go of

[09:39]

good and bad, good and evil, all polarities. But one of the problems, Buddhism also has its problems. I think all religions have their problems. because they get mixed up. As soon as a religion begins to lose its purity, it starts to have problems. Suzuki Roshi said, the hardest thing about practice is not the pain in your legs when you sit zazen. The most difficult thing is not being able to sustain the purity of practice.

[10:43]

And by purity of practice, he meant the practice of non-duality, not falling into duality. That's the hardest thing. So I think with most religions, there's a basis of pure practice. But it's so easy to go astray. When you have a religion which is very powerful and it starts to go astray in some way, then it becomes very dangerous. It's like a freight train running on a bad track. dangerous. And so, you know, religion over the millennia have caused more havoc in the world.

[11:46]

As much havoc as they've caused good, I'm afraid. It's really a mixed bag. So people say, you know, is it necessary to have religion? And a lot of, you know, science has taken the place of a lot of the superstition around religion. And so people say, well, you see, science is continuing to develop and all the old religious taboos and superstition is, you know, when you take the taboos and the superstition away from religion, what do you have left? That's a good question.

[12:49]

So, the problem is that people don't, a lot of people don't see that religion is also developmental. See, we tend to think that religion is something from the beginning is not to be tampered with. You know, this is the truth, and there's nothing you can do about that. But that's not the truth. The truth is that religion has to develop along with all the other disciplines. This is the age of science, and science is really, is developmental, and is in the forefront. But religion, in order to stay abreast of the present moment, has to also find its development and let go a lot of its treasured superstitions and dogmas

[14:04]

and Cretans, and even question some of the basic tenets. So, a living religion, I think, is a religion, religious practice, that is always questioning itself, just like science is always questioning itself. Science can't possibly survive without questioning itself. And religion has to be the same, otherwise it can't survive. And when religion is driven by hatred and anger and small-mindedness and intolerance, you know there's something wrong. That can't be true religion. If you look at the Old Testament, it's full of rage and revenge.

[15:12]

This is primitive religion. There are many fundamental things that still hold true, but there are so many things which, if you look at them, you can see, well, we no longer want to do that. A tooth for a tooth is primitive religion. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is primitive religion. But I think every religion at its root, at its conception, points toward the truth. So the problem is, how do you stay within that?

[16:20]

How do you create a pure practice that doesn't stray from that basic truth. I was reading an article recently by somebody who, now I don't remember, who said that today our great battles are not so much one country against another, not on the secular level, but on the religious level. The religions of the world having so much dynamic animosity It's only religion in name only. And the big problem is when religion becomes the tool of unscrupulous people.

[17:32]

We have the term hijacked. We say Islam has been hijacked. And Judaism has been hijacked. people using extreme beliefs to control and manipulate. It really gives a bad name to religion. So I think that we can see that there are battles now between, it's the battle of fundamentalist religions, fundamentalists within religion, that are creating so many problems in the world.

[18:35]

So intolerance is one of the marks of fundamentalism. That we can't, that we think that our, as soon as we think that our religion is the right one, and that everyone else is wrong, we have a problem. That's unexamined. That's the inability to examine. thoroughly something. There are Buddhists who are also in this realm. And you can see how easily it happens. It happens so easily. In Japan, in Dogen's time, each school took a certain practice. The Zen school, Dogen Zen school, took the practice of Shikantaza and Zazen.

[19:50]

The Rinzai school took up the practice of koan study. The Pure Land school took up chanting Buddha's name. And the Nichiren school took up chanting the name of the Lotus Sutra. And those practices became very solidified and dogmatic And after a while, the people from those schools wouldn't even speak to each other. So it's a big problem, because you want to preserve your own practice. I can feel it in my own practice. I'm a pretty tolerant person, but I can still feel that in my own practice. I can feel, you know, I want to preserve this practice and I don't want it to be diluted by other things. But at the same time, it's necessary to recognize that everyone has a practice, whoever has a practice has to be honored for that practice.

[21:04]

And one of the nicest things that we did one time was we had an ecumenical party where people from different traditions, Christians and Muslims and so forth, did something. I don't know if you remember that. That was a few years ago. It was in the Zendo, and each one presented something about their religion or their practice. I think that really helps to kind of break the ice, you know, and to feel some tolerance. And not just tolerate, not just to tolerate, but to accept that there are other ways. I think that the reason there are other ways is because there are so many different kinds of people who need or who respond to different

[22:10]

stimulus to respond to different practices. So, if you say, this is the best practice, it's okay, as long as you can say that about someone else's practice as well. Because the best doesn't necessarily mean that someone else is not the best. So religion tends to become egotistical. This is the big problem with religion. It becomes egotistical. We are the best. We are the right one. Because we're right, you're wrong. And then sticking to dogma.

[23:14]

Buddha said, according to tradition, Buddha said, you should find out for yourself. What I have discovered is this old path. It's not even mine. I just discovered this old path that was hidden, which many Buddhas have trod before me. And you're welcome to do it, too. I invite you to follow this path, too. And even though I have these words to say, even though I've spoken for 40 years, I haven't said a word. You should find out for yourself. You should verify the practice for yourself. So even though there seems to be Buddhist dogma, it's not dogma, because everything is there to be challenged.

[24:18]

Everything that Buddha said is there to be questioned and should be questioned. You shouldn't just accept something. And if some other tradition has said something or has some truth that's deeper, you should be able to accept that. So I remember Suzuki Roshi, you know, people would come to Suzuki Roshi And in the 60s, the teachers in America, the Zen teachers in America, had students who gathered around them.

[25:22]

And they set up their various centers, but they didn't interact. There was no interaction, very little interaction in the 60s. But each group was forming itself around their teacher and with their teacher's understanding. And so they kept pretty much to themselves in that early development. Then later, in the 70s and in the 80s especially, students started going back and forth to visit other teachers. Usually when their teacher died, you know, then they were kind of opened up, you know, and they would visit and they realized that these people were just like them, you know. And so there was much more interaction. And Suzuki Roshi used to say, you know, When you visit other places, if you have your own practice, if you know what your own practice is, people would ask him, well, I would like to go visit some other places.

[26:37]

He said, that's fine. Visit some other places. Visit other teachers. But you should know what your own practice is. If you're really, really centered and established in your own practice, then you can visit all kinds of people and you can appreciate what they do and you can practice with them, but you know who you are. And so you can, um, you don't get lost. You don't get, you know, pulled around. If you go visit this one, if you don't have your own practice established, then you go visit this one and you, um, think, well, I'll just do that. And then you visit the next one, you think, oh, that's OK, I'll just do that. So you just kind of get pulled around by whoever you visit. But if you know what your own practice is, then you can have a relationship, a good relationship. And you can appreciate, and you have your yes and your no.

[27:42]

what you can accept and you know what you don't have to accept. And you can make some judgment based on your own understanding. So, his meaning is you should practice with your Sangha and your teacher until you really have established your own practice. And then you can go visit other people and you can appreciate whatever there is to appreciate. So, I think the point is, last Saturday I talked about good and evil, and that evil was divisive, and that good was unifying, basically.

[28:57]

So how do we unify? How do we create that unity within the diversity within the unity. Unity doesn't mean they were all the same. Within unity there has to be diversity. And within the diversity there has to be unity. If we talk about good and evil, And no good and evil, beyond good and evil, beyond good and evil is the garden. So from, I think, Buddha's perspective, both things exist simultaneously. There is no good and evil.

[30:03]

On the other hand, there is good and evil. So in a non-dualistic understanding, there is no good and evil. There's simply this. But from a dualistic perspective, there's good on the one hand, evil on the other. There's unity on one hand and divisiveness on the other. There's heaven on one hand, hell on the other, and so forth. Heaven and hell just exist right here in this world. Those are the two polarities of this world. And the way we think creates one and the other. So how do we maintain, keep our practice pure?

[31:16]

That is, without falling into heaven and hell, without falling into good and evil, and at the same time recognizing that that realm exists, If you say there is no good and evil, that's not right. But if you realize there is a realm beyond good and evil, that's true. So I think that's our practice.

[32:17]

How to not be attached to one or the other. We want to be good. Who can knock it? But at the same time, when you create good, you're also creating evil. Because one comes out of the other. in a dualistic world. So we will always have war. There'll always be war, because it's the nature of this world. In the olden days, I could see how people thought that this world was not a fit place to live in. And so they tried to escape from it. And, you know, in our advancement of standard of living, we live a very comfortable life, and so we sometimes wonder, well, why do people think that?

[33:34]

But... You know, science and technology has made our lives more and more comfortable and enjoyable in a certain level. And so you think, well, what need is there for religious practice? But we have to examine that and realize that those comforts our kind of illusion. Our life is still the same. We still are born and die. And even though we have all our creature comforts, so many, we still have our same problems, perennial problems. And these are the problems that religion addresses.

[34:40]

So, as someone said, in the end, So what? If the fairy tale gives us this security, why not go along with it? That's very interesting, because life is a dream. We live in a dream world, and the only fear we have is the fear that we encounter in the dream world. If we don't live in the dream world, we don't have the fear. So we use the dream, you know, we dream a dream within the dream world to assuage our fear.

[36:16]

In other words, I will go to heaven when I die, you know, and if you're bad, you will go to hell. And only those who believe this will go to heaven, you know. So you become a member of the elite who go to hell. And if you do, you know, if you're, and so that's very comforting. The Buddhists also have heaven and hell. They have 32 heavens, various levels, and many hells, and they're great pictures of people in hell. But they're not places where you stay forever. They're simply places where your karma takes you. the result of your karma takes you. And then the Buddhists have the idea of rebirth, which kind of degenerates into reincarnation. And that's very comforting because you know that you'll keep coming back, you know, until finally you perfect yourself to the extent that you no longer come back.

[37:21]

So this is the Buddhist fairy tale. The Zen Fairytale is not a fairytale. Yes? Could you explain further what you mean by we will always have war because that's the nature of the world we live in? Have you ever known a time when there wasn't? I mean, it's the nature of this world. Conflict is the nature of this world. It's not only conflict. Conflict is, and the other side of conflict is peace.

[38:22]

That also is true. So you have these two You know, it's like the dark side and the light side of the moon. No, the time when Buddha lived was also a time of great conflicts.

[39:42]

You know that, but he was this great enlightened teacher. He was, and he also talked about the life of suffering. Right? That's the first noble truth. His life is suffering. So how do you escape from suffering? He was called the physician. This is my prescription for escaping from suffering. So that's basic Buddhism. What are some of the primitive things that evolved from it? I think some of the primitive things that evolved was the theory of reincarnation. Because Buddhism developed the Indian idea of karma.

[40:44]

And karma means that volitional actions create a cause for a result, and that this is endless, this cause and effect. And so when someone, when the body and mind dissolves, called dying, the action influence of the dynamism of that person's karma continues in some way. How it continues, nobody knows. But it's, you know, if you look at it scientifically, energy doesn't dissipate. I mean, energy continues, right? And continues to create other forms. So that's reasonable. But what those forms are, And there is this idea of circularity.

[41:46]

So all that needs to be questioned. I think it really needs to be questioned. Myself, I don't accept it or reject it. It's just like something that is just open to investigation. position. True. Well, it was the Tibetans in particular because this is their security. You know, Suzuki Roshi said, you know, there's no self yet. That doesn't mean there's no rules. Yeah. Even though there's no self doesn't mean there are no rules. Because when you say there's no self, it doesn't mean that there's nobody there.

[42:57]

It means that what's there is not a self. So what's there needs some rules, even though it's not a self. This lump. Yeah. Kent? I believe the root of volition is to join, to unite together. Volition? Religion. Religion, oh yeah. To cling, to, yeah, to bring things together. Or to, actually, to adhere to something. Lesion is its basis. What? Lesion. Yeah, if you look it up etymologically, it comes from the root lesion, to stick to, to connect with.

[44:02]

But I think that also is true. night to see the world? Benedictine said that when he visits various monasteries, when he comes to Tassajara or goes to Buddhist monasteries or Christian monasteries, he says it's all the same to him. He feels at home in every monastery, in any of those monasteries, be they Buddhist or Christian. And so, on that level, I think that there is some unity, just because of the nature of practice, monastic practice, even though those practices are different.

[45:08]

There's a problem, I think, with saying all religions are the same. They're not. I think they're all different. But there's something that's the same. There's something. And to find, to meet on the level of where we meet, to meet on the level where things are the same, then you can look at where the differences are. But if you start with the differences, you never get anywhere. My friend Kaz Tanahashi went to this conference, the Parliament of Religions. Remember that? It was in the 80s, I think, and they had one in 1902 or something, where the Japanese Zen teachers went. Anyway, World Parliament of Religions, where all the religions met, and it was nothing but a big madhouse of divisiveness.

[46:14]

huge disappointment. Well, I think to get back to your question of your statement about there'll always be war, you're holding these two, in talking about religion, you were saying there is an ultimate truth or fundamental truth that each one of them carries, and then each one of them is shaped in the cauldron particular sets of conditions, usually tribalism, you know, so it's this tension between what's absolute and us against them. And that's even true of Buddhism, where there was, you know, tremendous contention of ideologies in early Buddhism, and it's never ended in a way. Well, that's right. In early Buddhism, in India, there were 18 schools which were all arguing with each other about what was, but, and they had these arguments going on for like 500 years and stuff.

[47:29]

But that's a process. It's a process of refining the teaching. And so war is also a process. bloody as it is, and unfortunate as it is, it's a process. And it brings, you know, it changes the world. And it's a violent world. And things get changed in the process. And for good or bad, I don't know. But yeah. I heard the word world wisdom, and I take it as maybe the knowledge or experience of how life works, no matter where. Would you say that the religions are trying to attempt to express that, or trying to get to it?

[48:37]

Big word. But science tries to get to the bottom of how things work. Religion tries to get to the bottom of how things work. Art tries to get the disciplines to be working together and appreciating what each other's way is. There doesn't need to be a battle between the different disciplines. They should appreciate each other because they all offer a different perspective. And it's like feeling the elephant, you know? Like, oh, blind men feeling the elephant. Oh, I think it's a tree. And this one's, oh, I think this is a branch. And I think this one is a rock. So they all have their ideas of what it is, this elephant. Nobody knows. And not knowing is the beginning of wisdom.

[49:43]

Andrea, is that you? Well, I didn't grow up with any religion, and I don't really know that much about religion, and I don't really, I mean, I know something about Buddhism. I think that's what drew me to this practice was that, you know, we're just sitting here, Yeah, sitting upright in the midst of not knowing anything. The cards are reading, yes. these problems.

[50:59]

We live on both levels. On one level, we just go beyond good and bad. And on another level, we work for what we think is good. without any expectation that's going to save the world. Ma'am? Well, I think one always needs to examine the intention. And I know when I thought I was doing good So, you know, when you bring up one side, the other side comes up with it.

[52:06]

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't bring up the one side. It's a dilemma. We have to quit, but one more. Still adjusting it. Yeah. Yeah, we can't avoid it. That's true. So, we're not trying to escape from the world. But, Hopefully, we can raise things up to a high level, reach for a high level.

[53:17]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ