I come to make the truth of God a clarity. sometime this summer, I'm going to ordain Fran and Anne Murray as priests.

[01:05]

And this is the first time that anything like that happened at the Berkeley Zendo, except for my ordination. I was the first priest ordained at the Berkeley Zendo. But these will be the first two priests that I've ordained. Most members' experience of a priest is with me, although I've had a lot of experience with other priests. So it's not unusual for me to practice with priests, but I think it's a little unusual, very unusual for most of us. And big questions, there are big questions that come up in our minds. What does that mean?

[02:08]

One question is, what does it mean for them? And the other side of the question is, what does it mean for me or for us? And so there's understandably some apprehension among some people. And I think we need to clarify your questions. And today, I want to see or hear what your questions are. Questions about whatever kind of question you have.

[03:12]

You may think your question is not so good or maybe a dumb question, but please, feel free to say anything you'd like. That's about it. Eric? Yes, I was just wondering about how priest practice, what differences you were going to be assuming with priest practice compared to a resident practice? Yeah, well, When we moved here from Doi Kwe, we began a residence practice that enabled as many as a dozen people to practice as residents. But residents

[04:14]

Maybe residence practice is close to what you would expect of a priest's practice, but not necessarily. I have to clarify that in this way. I've talked about this before. The way we look at practice for in the categories of practice. There's priest's practice, and there's a lay practice, and in between is what we call a monk's practice. Those are the terms we use. They're not really accurate, but we use those terms. They're not accurate in the dictionary sense, but we use those terms. Those are what come closest to what we're talking about. And both lay people and priests practice as monks from time to time.

[05:23]

Not so many of you have practiced at Tassajara or had any monastic practice. But if you've had monastic practice and practiced at Tassajara, you find that both ordained priests and lay people practice together. And they practice what you would conceive of as a monk's practice, monastic monk's practice. So at that time, both priests and lay people are monks. And traditionally, there are not priests in Buddhism. traditionally, but there are many different traditions. So according to one tradition, there are no priests, and according to another, there are. So we come from a tradition where there are priests. So, I mean, our practice comes from a tradition where there are priests.

[06:30]

And our definitions are a little bit different here in America than they are, say, in Japan or China. in East Asian countries, lay people practice together with monks. But when they do so, they become monks just for a short time, for the time that they're practicing. And then they disrobe. But for the time that they're practicing, they practice as monks. So it's a different kind of setup than China and Japan. And they don't have priests. But the tradition in China developed a little differently. And the Japanese tradition comes from the Chinese tradition, and it has a monk's practice, priest's practice, and a lay practice.

[07:42]

Our practice here is different even than Japan, very different, in that when the teachers came to America, and I'll speak about Suzuki Roshi in particular, he was a temple priest. A temple priest more than a monastery monk, although he had his training at Eheiji, the monastery, which most Well, when he had his training in the monastery, after that he took a position as a priest, helping, taking charge of the temple. and creating a practice for laypeople.

[08:51]

A priest has various functions. A priest usually has a function for people. either the head of a temple or in some capacity as working for a temple or teaching, something like that. And monks are more like in training, positioned more like in training at a monastery. So we don't make a lot of distinction. In other words, the distinctions overlap. It's not strictly priest or strictly layperson. There's a lot of gray area or overlapping area. But basically, those are the categories that we have. So laypeople and priests share practice in America.

[10:01]

In some places they don't. And within Buddhism itself, you'll find these two extremes. The people down the street have monks and laypeople. The Thai temple down the street. And the people come on Sunday. And they feed the monks. They don't eat with the monks. The monks and the laypeople are completely separate. The monks don't touch women. They don't even talk to them, unless there's some go-between. Somebody else there. the monks chant services for the people and teach them. And there's this kind of symbiotic relationship between the monks and the lay people. The monks have nothing, and the lay people just take care of them.

[11:06]

They're like living in a kind of pure place. And the monks take care of them. I mean, the lay people take care of them, and the monks practice for themselves and for the lay people. And the lay people understand that, and pay great respect to the monks, and take care of them. But Mahayana practice is a little different than that. quite a bit different. And there are many different ways to practice in Mahayana Buddhism. Hinayana Buddhism is a kind of static set way of practicing. It changes very little. Whereas Mahayana Buddhism is the side of Buddhism which changes and keeps up with the times and modifies according to the time and the place.

[12:12]

So you have a lot of different kinds of practices and philosophies about Buddhism in the Mahayana. Even to the extent that in Japan, for quite a long time, Priests have married and had families, and not just lived in monasteries, but lived in temples. So when you have a situation where people are living in temples, managing temples for lay people, it's quite different than a situation where you have monks going out to beg their food every day from the lay people. and the laypeople living in one way and the monks living in another. Our practice is brought together much more in Mahayana.

[13:16]

The laypeople and the monks, dragons and snakes, mingle with each other. So practice, our categories are a little less, I know you have some questions, but categories are a little less defined, although they are defined. They are defined, but they overlap a lot. And as I say, when Suzuki Roshi came to America, his feeling was that we're not priests or laypeople necessarily. We are priests and laypeople and we're not exactly priests or laypeople. And so he gave us this big koan of who are we? What are we? Exactly.

[14:18]

But he would not define us. Although, in our practice at Serpoji, was just lay people. Harugiri Roshi and Suzuki Roshi were the only priests. And then there were a few other priests from Japan, Chino Sensei and Yoshimura Sensei, who came to help. But it was kind of lay monk practice, is what we were doing. And there was very little definition. He didn't define our practice. He just kind of watched us and let us develop whatever we were going to develop into. But little by little, before he died, he started ordaining people as priests, novice priests.

[15:25]

And if you ask any of those priests, what was your idea in ordaining these people? None of them would be able to say very much about it, because he didn't say anything about it. He said very little about it, about what he meant by that, by ordaining people. But the feeling was, the main reason he ordained me, or the obvious reason, I won't say the main reason, I'll say the obvious reason that he ordained me, was because I was already taking care of this place, which needed some leadership.

[16:38]

He ordained others at Zen Center in San Francisco because Zen Center needed some leadership. And he had a great feeling for both priests and laypeople. And he had an equally, equal interest in laypeople and priests. But it's been very difficult for priests in America to know who they are. Baker Roshi, when he became the Abbot of Zen Center, put a lot of... changed the emphasis and put the emphasis on priest's practice and ignored, pretty much, lay practice. Priest and monk practice. But he ignored lay practice in the way that we had

[17:44]

experienced it with Suzuki Roshi, which was in a way a kind of tragedy, because people felt they really belonged to the sangha. Everybody felt that way. And by making the priest's practice a kind of elite It created a kind of distaste for a lot of people about practice. What can I say? To the priests, One function of the priest is to practice as a monk.

[18:54]

Another function of the priest is to help lay people, to present the Dharma to lay people and help them to practice, or whatever it is that lay people can do, to create a practice for lay people. It's not to set yourself up in some way as a monarch or to become arrogant, but to serve people. The point of being a priest is to serve, to understand, first to understand the Dharma, to practice and understand the Dharma as a monk, and then to serve people as a priest. lay people, it doesn't mean that the priest is set above lay people as a human being, but a priest should, when a priest gets to a certain level, hopefully teach, although lay people can also teach.

[20:10]

And there are many examples of lay people teaching. But if you have other professions and interests, it's not the same as being a priest, where you put all of your effort into the Dharma. It's true that when we're really practicing, whatever we do is the Dharma, is within the realm of the Dharma. But there are, in any endeavor, there are people who devote their life to specifically one thing. And we appreciate that kind of practice. in Buddhism, and it's traditional to have that kind of practice in Buddhism, and to carry the burden of Buddhism, or the burden of practice, to see that that lamp remains lit

[21:25]

So priesthood is a kind of brotherhood and sisterhood of people who are devoted to keeping the lamp of Dharma lit and to serve people. That's why we have the succession of ancestors, why we pay so much respect to this succession of ancestors. Those are people who have devoted their lives to keeping the lamp of Dharma going. Did I answer your question, Eric? Yes, I think this is long. I really think you were going to be able to give I was concerned, and you started to answer it at the end about, you know, I know there's leadership, but also, I see it as real important, I come to priests for help.

[22:59]

And so I'm very excited about the idea. I get excited when I hear it. But the thing that is most important to me is that whether I'm in balance or off balance moment to moment in my practice here, where I, you know, I want to be very visible to the priest. I guess what I want most of all in a priest is real deep and fat, wholesome roots because that's what I need mine to grow. So my concern is not about your particular choices. I'm very pleased. And I also see it as very momentous for this organization because it's a direction. And in that sense that I the wholesome roots, how deep and how firm is really important to me. I think it's really important. That's probably the most important thing. People look at priests and they say, you know, this is a real good person.

[24:12]

But the fact of the matter is that a priest is good and bad. just like everybody's good and bad. So a priest is an example of a bad person, like everybody else, trying to do something good. It's not that a priest is necessarily a good person, but a bad person with a direction. So, it makes it in some ways more difficult to be a priest because you can't get out, you can't, you can get out of it, but you can't. I guess that's what I was saying. I guess I expect a priest to kind of be a vicarious model for me so I can access those roots and keep coming back to them in difficulty and frustration.

[25:15]

I'm sure that won't always be the case. I can't ban it though. But it works the other way too. Yeah. You know, sometimes the priest has to go to lay people for example. But I think you're right. Well, it's expectations and you know, life just... The main question is, if the emphasis here is on lay practice, we still don't really understand why we need priests, and why people would want to be priests, how that changes their own notion of Which one do you want to ask first?

[26:41]

I'm innocent. OK, that's a good question. They're all good questions. And a while back, I think more than a year ago, somebody asked me, you know, I was talking about my wish to do this. What is the difference? And I realized that that's a very good question. So I worked with that. I really sat with that. I came to understand for myself that the difference is in the person. Basically, in terms of practice, I'm really convinced that what makes the difference is the way each one of us should live our life, and the way each one of us should live our life at a particular moment, say right now. So there are a lot of reasons that I feel that this is the right thing for me to do with my life in order to practice right now.

[27:45]

But that's for me. We're all different. We all always do different things. But maybe I'll say a little bit about why I think that's right for me. I was raised in a pretty religious Catholic family. So I grew up around altars and priests and nuns and things like that. And even as a kid, I was always making altars. I like that sort of thing. But then I grew up and did a lot of other things with my life, and that didn't come together. And then I started to practice, and it was very early years ago when I started to practice that I felt that same thing coming up again. So about four or five years ago, I realized that I was really being pulled in this way. It was not going away. But how to make it happen? And we've all been through a history of Zen practice in major centers and the problems and so on. And all of that got to me also. And I began to feel like it was not going to be possible.

[28:49]

Sometimes I would even cry about it. I really felt disappointed. And so finally I said to myself, can't just cry about it, you know, if it's not going to happen in this lifetime, it's not going to happen, but still I decided I could live my life in my heart that way. I can't ordain myself, but I could really put my life into it in that way. Well, Mel has always been here, you know, and you folks here at the Berkeley Zen Center, most of you know I live in Arizona. We don't have a teacher, it's entirely a lay practice, you know, so there I am with this big desire But I've always been able to come and Mel has always been here. So it was not too long after I realized that the important thing was what I was going to do with my life and my aspiration about this. And I don't think we were even talking about it, but somehow Mel said to me, you know, it's time, you should do it. And so, you know, then it came together.

[29:51]

But as I look back on it, it seems like it's been a really like a natural desire for me, you know, something that's coming naturally out of my life. But then it didn't seem like it would even be possible. So then, in a way, I had to let it go. And then it became possible for me to do it. So, you know, that's just how it's happening in my life. But what I really am so sure of is that what's important is practice. And we practice according to what our life has for us. You know, what we have right now, that's what we have to practice with. And if it's ordained, that's what it is. And if it's lay or, you know, something else, then that's what it is. And really the important thing is to practice. Somehow we all get through it, whatever we're supposed to do. So I think the answer, my answer to the question of what is the difference, you know, is that the difference is in the person, you know.

[31:00]

Which are applications to practice? You know, I spent most of, a lot of time concerned about the the priesthood and supporting the plague practice. And when I realized that what I wanted to do was be a priest, I was kind of embarrassed. I remember I was sitting on Mel's back porch one day, and it was a couple of years ago, maybe three years ago, sometime during all the commotion in San Francisco. And we'd been talking about it, and it suddenly hit me that that was what I wanted to do, had wanted it for a long time but hadn't been able to admit it. I was so embarrassed, actually, by the realization that what I wanted was to be a priest, but I didn't tell anybody about it for a long time.

[32:12]

When I think about what brought me to that place, There are lots of factors. The reason that I... I can say a lot of things about the reason that I want to do it. It's not because I think we need priests or that I need to be different. It does have something to do with keeping the lamp of the Dharma lit, as Mel said, it has to do with my feeling of very deep connection with this particular lineage. And I don't know why I feel that very deep connection with this particular lineage in that tradition, and I need to carry on in this way. It's not something that's rational. But in terms of the priest and layperson,

[33:19]

distinction. And we keep talking about how we share this practice and there's some differences. The last time Mel and I talked about it, he was saying, as he often does, that the practice is basically the same, but the priests come at it from this way and lay people come at it from this way. And I said, right there, where they meet, that's what my life is about. And so somehow for me it has to do with that I have a strong desire to not choose upsides, but to find a way to honor both sides of all the distinctions, really. And so the way I feel about being ordained, it's not that I'm making some statement about What is a priest or what is a lay person or who am I?

[34:21]

But more than I'm asking a question, can we practice with this formal tradition and with our everyday lives, honoring both fully? And it's a question that I hope everyone will ask me. What was the embarrassment? Well, I always... I've been so vocal about how priests were just... lay people were just as good as priests in all those times when the priest elite was forming at Vincent. And I was very... I've always been very anti-priest. You asked for apprehensions as well as questions.

[35:30]

I'm very dedicated to the idea that this is a layman's Sangha. I like that. And I've also made the comparison before about the Navy and the Coast Guard. San Francisco has always struck me as being the Navy. And I've always liked it that we're the hooligans, Navy, which is what they sometimes call Coast Guard. And I certainly am pleased at the idea that Fran and Anne are going to be priests. And also, I notice and understand and accept the idea of so many people wanting to sit in robes because I understand than regular clothes. But I really hope that we guard very strongly against getting to be such a good Navy that people coming in new feel that this rank of solemn beings in black sitting around on cushions, that they have no access to the practice

[36:52]

can feel close to. So let's always stay hooligans, one way or another. Maybe we'll be hooligan priests. I'm a little bit of a hooligan myself. I changed my mind. I don't know where I'm going to wind up.

[38:16]

So it feels funny to me, being ordained as a priest means, at least at the beginning, that you settle in with the person that ordained you, and really partake of that practice, and I'm very much involved in it. And I feel like I'm on... that my direction now is sort of more exploring. Children, would you address a little bit the criteria that you might set up in terms of accepting someone for this position or recommending to someone that they might assume this position?

[39:24]

That's a good question. Did you all hear Jack's question? Okay. Well, I think the first criteria would be that the Dharma is the foremost thing in their mind and desire. And I think that's really a big criteria, is that they have that as the first choice in their life. And then, another question is what they're willing to, how they're willing to express that.

[40:25]

What their ability to stay with something is, and sincerity, I guess you'd call it. And then the other is their record. Like, what are they like? Are they just cleaning up their act to do this, or is there some history of stability? And also the fact that they know something about what they're talking about, what they're doing. In other words, they have some experience in practice, so it's not just an idea. And that goes in hand with the fact that they're being ordained because that's what they're already doing. The ordination is just a just walk into the other room.

[41:33]

It's not like they're looking for the doorway. So those are some of the criterions. I think that this is in the vein of an apprehension also. understand on some level very much what would mean somebody toward making that decision to become a priest. And I think a lot of us probably have some part in us that kind of moves in that direction. The concern that I have in terms of our sangha, I guess, has to do with that making those people something more special than other people. And that they're somehow their thoughts or decisions or something like that would have more weight than other people.

[42:40]

That we could kind of move into being more of a hierarchical place than we have been, which is a part of the Japanese tradition. Definitely, and I think one of the issues that we're working with in trying to figure out what we're doing in America with this. So that's the concern that I have. On the other side, of course, is appreciating that people are making that choice and that movement. Yeah, that's good because my feeling about hierarchy, I remember, well, two things. One is, I think that we should be very careful that we don't create a hierarchical structure. It's very Japanese to do so. And when I talked to Suzuki Roshi about it, you know, I was very much against hierarchy always.

[43:43]

But hierarchy exists whether we like it or not. And the problem is not whether it's like communism, you know. Communists do away with the hierarchy and then they create another hierarchy because you cannot have only vertical. Vertical life does not exist by itself. You have to have vertical and horizontal life to balance your life together. The reason that there is hierarchy is because it naturally exists. The question is not to do away with hierarchy, the question is how do you make it work for everybody. So, I remember talking to Suzuki Roshi about it, He says, well, what kind of government do you think we should have? And I said, well, you know, the Berkeley Zenda works very well without any hierarchy. And he says, well, but in practice, Buddhist practice, we have hierarchy, and the problem of hierarchy is the problem we have to deal with.

[44:51]

In other words, it exists, and we have to deal with it. So, I still think that hierarchy is, the less hierarchy you have, the better. But it does exist, naturally. Even if you don't appoint people to this or that, it exists just because of the way people take their positions according to their inclinations and abilities. Someone always comes out as a leader. So, um, but we should be very careful about it. That it doesn't become a problem. So that's my feeling. He said, um, what kind of government do you think we should have? And I was, in tongue-in-cheek, and I, really I was thinking of Baker Roshi before he even came out of it, and I said, uh, benevolent despot.

[45:53]

And he looked up in the dictionary, He was a benevolent despot. He wasn't a despot, but he was very benevolent. I wasn't going to say anything, but I've been having two thoughts encourage me the whole time this year, and I guess I should say them. I hope they're relevant. In AA there's a tradition that we have no leaders, only trusted servants. Only what? Only trusted servants. So it seems to me that who the priesthood is depends on the definition that everyone agrees on in the group we're dealing with. And of course everyone knows in hierarchies ever since we got up on our hind legs, and probably before, and that it will happen again, and that it's not necessary.

[47:05]

And the other thing I was thinking along that vein, and I remember that a few years ago I was complaining to somebody about my ex-husband, and how I hadn't really been seen very much of And then he said, I see. He said, well, you know, just because you find one bad apple doesn't mean that you then say, OK, no more fruit. That's, yeah, I understand. Very well. It seems to me that there are a lot of questions that some have been asked, and I feel maybe all haven't. So it'd be nice to think that there might be some other time for this. I just would like to say that that leaders do come out. Sometimes you have two or even five leaders, like the Philippines or elsewhere. And some people, I mean, there's a lot of areas here that I think have not been, or some people sit in robes.

[48:09]

I guess you can get them at some store. We had the Chuukai ceremony. I don't think any one of those If I was speaking openly, I'd like a little bell or feather or something to kind of say I'm in the Buddhist Berkeley Fellowship. But I think those are all issues. Some people wear something special and it means something. Some people don't. Well, we've never, you know, my own attitude is that basically the place is open. for people to come and go. And at the other end, there's a very definite sense of commitment. So there's two ends.

[49:11]

One is a sense of real, real firm commitment. And the other is free to come and go. And so I've always been very reluctant to say everybody should wear robes. People can wear what they want, within reason. You know, I remember... So, everybody's free to take their place in whichever position they want. Some people see practice as being a priest, with commitment. great commitment. Other people see it as, you know, coming to the zendo as a kind of exercise, you know, or to make them more calm or something, you know. And it just, a lot of, there's a lot of space, a lot of room, you know. And that, how to,

[50:21]

have one room that has enough space for all this differentiation, you know, is my trick. So, you know, some people are priests, some people are just passing by, other people are laymen and some people are monks, you know, but we all practice together according to our understanding and our propensity I don't think we'll ever have a lot of priests here. But there's room for some people to practice there as priests. They feel that I'm their teacher and they want to practice with me there. And I may be a teacher. I hope I am. I don't know if I am or not. We'll see. But we have to allow for that. Make space for that. I don't think anybody's going to lord it over anybody.

[51:26]

We just allow space for everybody to practice in a way that they feel is right. It's like a one-room, I've always said, like a one-room schoolhouse. No matter what grade you're in, this is where you go to school. I've been around, I've been in Zen centers where a lot of priests, or a few anyway, and And for me, it was a real everyday thing to have them there. Actually, some of the priests I felt very close to as friends. Or monks, actually, they were monks. The one apprehension I have of the ring or the rope.

[52:33]

And so, but while I'm here, I like to think that I have the possibility of moving up and down in the organization. So, with or without a robot, you see. So, that's my main fear, you know, is that of just priest. Well, what's gonna happen eventually is In reality, I've already experienced it here, is that certain groups of people have meetings. So if you have a priest meeting, what do they talk about? And we have a lot of meetings here, in case you don't know. And then you have, now, what prevents lay people from coming to priest meetings, and vice versa? So that's just an obvious visual. I feel like I don't want to need a rope to move up or move down.

[53:40]

I don't think that we'll turn into that kind of division. I don't see it that way. But I appreciate your apprehension. One thing you said, though, that you you didn't feel committed here to be a priest. But being a priest doesn't mean that you're committed to some place. You've become a priest in the priesthood. You don't become a priest to a place. So people are free to move around, go wherever they want. And the ordination The person who ordains you is not necessarily your permanent teacher. Usually, you have three teachers, a possibility of three main teachers. One is the person who ordains you.

[54:43]

The other one is the person under whom you practice as shuso, or head monk in the training period, practice period. And the third one is the person that gives you dharma transmission. And they can be all the same person, or they can be three different people. And it's quite common for them to be three different people. So, after you have some initial relationship with your person who gives you ordination, then you usually go to the monastery, this is usual, and you have your shuso under another teacher. And then maybe you go off after that, to find your true teacher. True teacher is the person who gives you dharma transmission. Well, it's a career. Yes, it's a career. Are we going to continue this today?

[55:51]

You mean today? Well, I think, yes. The next open meeting is the 11th of the 18th. And we thought that certainly some kind of Sangha discussion oriented, at least in this direction, there was a meeting a week ago today of five different Sanghas talking about what how we could relate to each other, and Ron suggested, and everyone felt very positive about it, that the next meeting of that large group, we would bring up the three main, each Sangha would develop three main concerns that were sort of hot at that moment, and bring it to the general meeting. I suspect if we get together in a room, at least one of our main concerns is going to be around priests. So I'm not just sure how that meeting on the 11th will be structured, but that will be the topic.

[56:58]

And maybe we could just suggest that it just be continuation of priest practice. Now people can give me feedback. I'm glad you said that. I think we should give a lot of encouragement to both of these people who are very sincere in their desire. And even though we may have some doubts, to go beyond our doubts and help them.

[58:05]

I think if we help them, that will really help us. I'm sorry that Anne Murray won't be here on the 11th. I'm glad you're here today. I'd be tempted to fly back.

[58:36]

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