I vow to taste the truth that does it all just worse. Good evening. This evening I have a sore throat and I'm trying to take care of myself so that I can continue. So we'll do the best that we can. Last time we took up the precepts of not killing, no killing, and the precept of ill will, not harboring ill will.

[01:24]

And these are the precepts of aversion. And tonight, we're going to take up the precept of not taking, not stealing, to put it bluntly, not taking what is not given, and not misusing sexuality, and not withholding the Dharma or material things. So these are the precepts of which talk about or which deal with clinging. So the two aspects of aversion and clinging are what we're dealing with mostly in our lives from day to day and from moment to moment.

[02:28]

When we sit in Zazen, we have this problem of these two aspects come up continuously. The aspect of aversion, which is pushing away, and the aspect of clinging, which is not letting go. And these two aspects dominate our life. And so I wanted to take them. And since we only have a limited time, we can't talk about each of the precepts in each session, or one precept for a class. So we'll take these three precepts together. And I thought that we would use sexuality as the central subject, since it's a subject that we don't talk about very much and it's hard to deal with.

[03:41]

And in the old days, people dealt with, because it's so hard to deal with, they just kind of said yes or no. And there was very little middle ground. So in America, not just America, but in our modern life, there's a lot of room for how to deal with sexuality, which is not just either you do or you don't. And in Zen Center, we have very few rules about And of course, in a traditional Buddhist practice place, sexuality is very tightly controlled, or at least there are many rules.

[04:43]

In the past, it hasn't been as tightly controlled as one would think, but considering what the rules are, we've dealt with problems as they arise, have arisen. And in Buddha's time, Buddha was not a person, although you might think he was, he was not so much interested in laying down a lot of rules. But Buddha actually was not so interested in laying down a lot of rules.

[05:50]

But because his order grew in his time, there had to be some regulation of ethical principles among the participants. And as a problem would arise, say so-and-so is doing this and that what do you think of this and they say well from now on I think that they shouldn't do that so this was the way the rules evolved and there were major precepts and minor precepts were precepts for monks.

[06:52]

They're precepts for monks and precepts for laypeople. In this subject of sexuality, monks were not allowed to have any... I mean, sexuality was just out of the question. And if a monk was... perform any kind of sexual practice or act, he was totally expelled. So this was the way they dealt with it. This was the way they dealt with sexuality. And there are various reasons why sexuality was forbidden for monks. One of the main reasons is because once a person has a partner, if a man has a woman partner, which is the popular way in those days, then you have children, then you have a family, then you have to go out and work,

[08:18]

you don't have any time to practice. It's just, you know, is another way of life. Then you become a lay person. So, or you might as well. And also there's a level of practice which when, where As soon as sexuality comes into the picture, then attachment comes into the picture. And the worst thing that the monks could do is form attachments, especially to some other person. And then pretty soon, one's attention is going to this other person instead of to the practice. So these were some of the major reasons for not including sexuality in the practice.

[09:29]

In our modern times in America, our effort is to include family or partners as practice. we have a little different kind of emphasis. And we don't have a strong, in America, there's not a strong monastic practice. Tassajara is probably the most strict monastic practice in America that I know of. And even at Tassajara, you know, sexuality is difficult because when you have men and women practicing together, you have sexuality. So this is why men and women were always separated, or one reason why the men and the women were always separated in Buddhist practice, or at least in monk's practice.

[10:31]

So when our teachers came, Japanese teachers came to America, they brought with them a kind of middle of the road practice, middle way practice. In Japan, precepts have never been taken too seriously. The 250 precepts were very, almost never followed as a practice Asian, East Asian countries, the monks follow the 250 precepts, more or less. The monks do. And that's called the Vinaya, following the rules of the Vinaya.

[11:39]

But in Japan, the Vinaya has always been given lip service. as a kind of ritual, but not something to follow. And I think in many ways with good reason, because a lot of the precepts only apply to India, and they only apply to certain kinds of situations which you don't encounter in another place or in another time. And so there are the major precepts and minor precepts. And in Japan, the precepts were reduced to the major precepts, which we call the Ten Precepts, the Ten Great Precepts, or the ones that we're talking about. But even so, in Japan, the precepts were never followed religiously by most people.

[13:05]

But the precepts were... People felt that they understood how to behave with each other. They felt that they understood how to behave with each other, and it's kind of a long and involved story about the history of precepts in Japan, so I can't go into that. But they put more emphasis on the innate nature of precepts rather than the imposed nature of precepts. So this is one aspect, is sexuality.

[14:15]

Another aspect is taking what is not given, not stealing, so to speak. And to understand this concept in its higher sense, is to realize that actually nothing belongs to us. This body is not mine. And the possessions that we have, things that come our way into our hands, we say, these are mine. But actually, Yes they are and no they're not. This is a kind of koan about possessions. Yes they're mine, but actually they're not. They don't belong to anyone.

[15:20]

And sometimes in a community, there are communities where all of the objects that people use are shared. And people get a sense that things don't really belong to each other, to themselves, but whatever needs to be used can be used by anyone. And in some sense, I think that's a good attitude, even in any community, that the things that we use are things that we're taking care of, actually. And I think if we think in terms of being caretakers, then the things that we use, the objects that we have and what we collect around us, take on a different aspect.

[16:24]

And we feel some appreciation for these things. and take care of them in a way that expresses our understanding of that. Suzuki Roshi, on this subject, said, these are my glasses. He said, they don't belong to me, but because of my poor eyes, you let me wear them, and I thank you for that. And Akin Roshi said, even though nothing belongs to me, this typewriter is something that I use for my business at hand. And I will not let you take it away, because I really need to use it. No, you can't have it. If you really have to have it, you can have it.

[17:27]

goods and money and objects all flow, and when things are flowing well, then, as Suzuki Roshi said, the economy works well. Money is not evil. Money is just money, and it actually has a kind of sacredness to it, because it's something that we all use, and we all share, and it expresses our interaction. So actually money has a kind of sacred value. And it should be treated respectfully. And when it's flowing in generosity to all parts of the society, then everything works very well. Everybody's happy.

[18:35]

Japanese economy works something like that much better than most. There are not a lot of poor people in Japan. It's a small country. But there's some effort to distribute the wealth among the whole country, among all the people in the country. So you don't get the feeling that you're walking into poverty. Although there are people that are sleeping in the parks in Tokyo, it's not a lot of people. Although sometimes it's more than the other times. But it doesn't have the feeling that it has here. And I think partly because people feel some responsibility for each other, which we don't feel so much, most people.

[19:41]

So if we realize that we really own nothing, but we do take care of what comes to us, and there's certain things we need to use, this is a very Buddhist attitude. You don't have to be a monk, actually. You can have possessions. You can have money in the bank. You can have an automobile. Somebody once said, How can a Buddhist monk have a car? Traditionally, that would be so. And how could a Buddhist monk be carrying money in his pocket? Because traditionally, Buddhist monks had three robes and a bowl. That's it. Three robes and a bowl. So, And they're not allowed to farm, and they're not allowed to really have anything else.

[20:56]

Sewing kit, a few little things. But if one has an attitude of non-possessiveness, then it's really the same thing. We don't have to live like monks, but I think that the example of a monk is very important for people, because it reminds us of those qualities. Of course, sometimes the more we get, the more we want to hold on to, because that's the problem. when prosperity is good and things start coming our way, then we start feeling a little bit avaricious. And that's the eighth precept, avariciousness. Do not be avaricious.

[22:00]

Literally, don't withhold the Dharma and don't withhold material things from people. If people want the Dharma, even in your limited capacity, you should say something. You should teach the Dharma. People say, well, I'm not a teacher. I don't know very much about Buddhism. But actually, you should think about, well, what do I know? What do I know about Buddhism? What do I know about the Dharma? In Buddha's time, Buddha's main disciples had not been practicing very long, maybe a year or two, before they were teaching the Dharma. I'm not saying you should teach the Dharma after you've been practicing a year or two, but because they were in association with Buddha, they grew up very quickly.

[23:07]

But there was a layperson who saw Mahakasyapa and a couple of Buddhist disciples, I'm not sure which ones, walking down the street. And this guy said, was so impressed with the way they were walking down the street with their noble bearing. He said, he was so impressed that he went up to them. He said, who are you? And then he said, well, I'm so-and-so. And he said, who is your teacher? And he said, well, Shakyamuni is our teacher, my teacher. And he said, well, what does your teacher teach you that gives you this noble bearing? He said, well, I really don't know very much. I haven't been practicing very long, and I really know very little. The only thing I know is that

[24:12]

Everything has a cause. And everything that comes into being passes out of existence. And there is nothing to be attached to. There is nothing to cling to. That's all I know. And so the layman was so impressed that he went and joined the Order. And after three days was enlightened. So if people want to know what is Dharma, you should be able to do something, say something.

[25:30]

And if you don't, you say, well, how come I don't know the fundamental thing about the Dharma? And then you go find out. Then next time somebody asks you, you have something to say. So this is not withholding. You know, if someone asks you, there should be something to say. And as far as material things go, we talked about that. Don't withhold things from people. Sometimes people give me gifts, and then I have this little pile of gifts, which I don't know what to do with, so I give them to other people. And they're very appreciative of that. So in a sense, if you give me something, Please do not expect that I will hang on to it, although I will enjoy it.

[26:33]

As you give it to me, I'll enjoy it, but I may just pass it to somebody else and let them enjoy it as well. So, I want to just... I know we want to have this discussion. But I want to just read you the various ways that people have translated this third precept. It's interesting to hear the way that people have translated this precept because there are a lot of different ways. So one translation is, the abstinence from misuse of sexuality.

[27:43]

Another way is, no attachment to fulfillment. That's the third precept. No attachment to fulfillment. That's interesting. It means something like, even though you may have some desire, you don't act out your desire except in a situation where it leads someplace or it has some lasting consequences. In other words, you do not have to pursue every feeling that arises or every attraction that comes by. And another one is to sustain care and love in intimate relationships. That's a little more accommodating. Another is not to engage in improper sexuality, but to practice purity of mind and self-restraint.

[29:00]

And another one is remaining faithful in relationships. And another one is do not covet, which has to do with greediness or attachment, actually. And another one is do not be greedy. That's interesting. Do not be greedy. And another one is, I observe the training rule to abstain from adultery. And that's probably the most fundamental one. And Suzuki Roshi's translation

[30:09]

is a disciple of the Buddha refrains from sensual attachment. So for him, attachment is the main problem. Buddhism does not reject sexuality or think it's evil or bad or anything like that. but problems that arise because sexuality is such a strong drive that they're easy to get entangled or caught or burned up or stressed out, you name it. So, refraining from sexual attachments.

[31:11]

So these are some of the translations, some of the ways that people have expressed this precept. And I'll just read one more thing. This is from the Ethical Principles of Zen Center, which apply to us. And it says, a disciple of Buddha does not misuse sexuality, but rather cultivates and encourages open and honest relationships. The Zen Center Sangha recognizes that sexuality is as much a part of the field of practice as any other aspect of our daily lives.

[32:16]

Acknowledging and honoring our sexuality is part of creating an environment where conscious, mindful, and compassionate relationships can be cultivated. Special care must be taken when people of unequal status or authority enter into a sexual relationship. In particular, there are two forms of relationships which can lead to great harm and confusion. Therefore, both are considered a misuse of sexuality within our community. First, it is considered a misuse of sexuality for an adult within Zen Center to engage in sexual behavior with anyone at Zen Center who is a minor. Full responsibility for avoiding such relationships lies with the adult. This comes out of our experience. Second, it is considered a misuse of authority, responsibility, and sexuality for a Zen Center teacher to engage in sexual behavior with his or her student. If a teacher and or student feel at risk of violating this guideline, they should suspend their teacher-student relationship, at least until they have sought counsel with a senior Zen Center teacher.

[33:31]

Furthermore, it is considered a misuse of sexuality for a teacher at Zen Center to form a sexual relationship with a former student within six months of the termination of the teacher-student relationship. Before forming a sexual relationship, all Zen Center priests, head students, or other persons in a formal role that may entail clear advantages of influence in relationship to others should discuss the appropriateness of the potential relationship with a teacher or practice leader. Particular care must be shown toward new students. We have learned that it takes about six months for a new student to establish the foundation of his or her practice and to understand the complex nature of interrelationships within the Sangha. In order to protect a new student's opportunity to practice, we expect anyone who has been at Zen Center longer than six months to consult with a practice leader about a potential relationship with a new student during the first six months of the new student's residency at Zen Center.

[34:33]

That rarely happens. But sometimes it does. At Tassajara, I've had students came to me and said, because in Tassajara, you know, everybody's practicing day after day with each other. And then the women look at the men, the men look at the women, and the men look at the men, and the women look at the women. And pretty soon somebody wants something. And students, they say, we really like each other, but we're a little bit hesitant to have a relationship. And I say, good. Hold off as long as you can. And then, at the end of the practice period, leave and take care of your relationship. And then when you've taken care of your relationship, you see what that's about, and then come back. Everyone coming to Zen Center in any capacity has the right to be free from sexual harassment.

[35:50]

Continued expression of sexual interest after being informed that such interest is unwelcome is a misuse of sexuality. So we should be careful, you know, not to be predators and give people a chance to find their practice. Sometimes people come to Zen Center for various reasons. Some people come to practice. Most people do. Some people come to see who's around. And some people come for both. You know, I think a lot of people come for both. It's okay. It's all right, you know. I mean, why not look for a partner? amongst the people that you like or that you feel compatible with. But it's very good to leave a person alone for at least six months or even longer before starting some kind of relationship so that

[37:00]

It's so easy, you know, what to... Because a new person will come and everybody else looks like they've been there forever. And so they all look up, a new person always looks up to somebody who's been there for a week, you know. And so you have an advantage. That person has an advantage. And then you start telling them about Buddhism, you know, and all this, and then... They look at you as, you know, and just get all caught up in this stuff, so leave it alone for a while until everybody has a good understanding of what practice is, some understanding. And then... So, Jim, would you clarify the third of the three precepts which we're discussing this evening? The third precept that I...

[38:09]

Yes, that you cited as in this group. The eighth precept. The eighth. Yes. I thought I did that a little bit. Don't withhold the teaching. Oh, OK. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm a little confused on that one. So is that the same precept as to not be avaricious? It is. Or possessive? Yes. Yeah, not to be possessive or avaricious. Well, keeping is keeping to yourself, keeping stuff to yourself. I looked it up in the dictionary. Avarice. Avarice, yeah. It means keeping things to yourself and not, you know, collecting in a kind of needy way and not letting things go, not distributing.

[39:24]

Miserliness is an aspect of avariciousness. The need to draw stuff to yourself and keep it to yourself. My pile. But I also think it has probably originated with Mahayana criticism of Pratyekabuddhas. Because the Pratyekabuddha is the one who has realization but doesn't help people with it, doesn't... kind of keeps to himself. The hermit. The hermit who... He says, go away, leave me alone. This is my practice. And he has some realization, and he's pretty content with himself, but he doesn't want any intrusions.

[40:35]

If you come up the mountain, he goes further up the mountain. That's a kind of spiritual avariciousness. And the Japanese, in particular, are very critical of that kind of behavior. Other people are not. In China, there were these monks who would be walled up in the monastery, in a little room, a little prison, actually, for 20 years. And in order to advance their spiritual practice, But in a way, it's kind of spiritual avariciousness, you know, trying to see how far you can get by cutting yourself off from everything. In the material world, though, still, like even the stereotypical rich landowner that not only owns a lot of land, but will actually throw people out of their villages to have more land in their home.

[41:43]

be either spiritual or material goods, not to withhold. Realizing that everything is changing and there's no self in anything.

[43:24]

And so you do it selflessly. That's called selfless behavior, or non-self-centered behavior. Whatever needs to be done. When you become enlightened, you realize that there's nothing to do. with what appears before you. This one needs help, you help that person. This one needs help, you help that person. Because you don't have anything to do for yourself. Well, that's that monastic model in action. So this individual person is practicing non-attachment and taking care of each thing after it arises. So now we're in this, in America, we don't have this monastic model. We can carry it maybe in our heart, but we're in the world and... The world is your monastery. The Zendo is your practice place. And as you practice in the world, that becomes, that's extension of your practice place.

[44:33]

But the world doesn't support that Vinessa model. No. So there's that, there's a co-author that this, the rug. That's right. Right? Yeah. So... You say, well, geez, you don't seem so engaged in your work. That's a good question for you. Right. Well, for the person who's practicing with sincerity, I think it's an easier thing to live with that because we practice together and we're talking this this lingo.

[45:47]

We all have an understanding of it. My question is out in the world where we don't have that. It's a different lingo that's being and we don't cross the tie. But the lingo doesn't have to be anything special. How do you just think in a normal way about the Dharma? If you practice the Dharma, then when you speak in a normal way, your words are expressing the Dharma. And you meet a world that is not, that knows nothing about what you're doing. And then you engage with that world. And you engage with that world as your practice.

[46:54]

And how you do that is called genjo koan. That's the koan of our practice. Yes. Do you want to take a small break?

[48:21]

Do you wish to take a small break? So Karen asked, what are the differences between, what is the origin of the Japanese precepts? And I think that the origin is from China, and the origin of the Chinese precepts is from India. or maybe even earlier, Saicho, who was the Tendai, who carried the Tendai lineage from China to Japan, wanted his monks to

[49:59]

observe the Bodhisattva precepts rather than the Vinaya precepts, which were more rigid. So he reduced the 250 precepts down to the 16 Bodhisattva precepts that we use today, pretty much. And those precepts were included in the Vinaya, but he felt that reducing it to these major precepts would make it easier for the monks to practice with them, instead of a whole bunch of little minor rules of conduct, how you eat, A lot of the precepts are just rules of etiquette.

[51:10]

And how you do it with eating with your hands, which they do in India. With only one hand. With only, yeah. They eat only with the right hand. Yeah, that's right. And you wipe yourself with the left. And that's, but that's... So those are my... minor precepts. But in China, there were the Bodhisattva precepts, which the first 10 that are precepts were directly, those are Chinese precepts, Chinese Bodhisattva precepts. So there were 10 of those and 48 minor precepts. And the 48 minor were actually observed.

[52:12]

And we have the 10 major precepts. And Suzuki Roshi said, you should make your own minor precepts. As things come up in your life, for America and your situation, you should develop your own precepts. So, I think with Buddha, precepts were not rigid rules. And even when he was dying, Ananda asked him, do we have to follow the minor precepts as well as the major precepts? Buddha said, no, you don't have to do that necessarily. And then later, when they had the council, they brought all the arhats together to discuss what Buddha had said.

[53:24]

They asked Ananda, what did Buddha say about the precepts? And Ananda said, well, he said, we didn't necessarily have to follow all the minor precepts. And Mahakasyapa said, well, which minor precepts, and he said, we didn't have to follow. And he said, I didn't ask him. And so Maha Kasyapa said, then we'll follow them all. And that's been a kind of monastic, you know, one side, the Maha Kasyapa side, is the one, is the rigid, you know, following the letter. And the Ananda side is following the Spirit, and that those two have always been present in the understanding of presets. I said that already.

[54:51]

Literally, the precept for monks was for monks. No sex. Period. For lay people, to have faithful relationships. A second question is, if that has anything to do with Yeah, I think that for the monks, the monks only eat one meal a day, and it has to do with attachment to food. And it's possible, you know, the monks were fairly sedentary, meditating a lot, I think, or whatever their practices were, but not working. And the only work they did was to go out begging.

[55:57]

And they ate one meal a day. But when Buddhism moved northward into China, a lot of monks still kept the precept of one meal. But moving to China into an agricultural society, and also at some point the monks were working. And then when the monks started working, they started eating more. And they'd eat two meals a day. And then the third meal was called medicinal. You know, just something to stave off your appetite. But even in the countries where the monks eat one meal a day, they can drink fruit juice. Well, the reason for only eating one meal a day and not afternoon was to reduce your attachment to food and to not eat more than you need to.

[57:10]

One doesn't need to eat that much. In a lot of countries, to reduce that dependency. I can't hear you. Oh, when, I can't remember his name, but And then, because you had the rest of that time to just practice the Dharma, to consider the Dharma, because you weren't putting all that effort into cooking.

[58:23]

And getting your food, well, not cooking, but begging your food. That wouldn't be so nice. So there's some dignity attached to the one meal. But, you know, I remember Professor Jaini was a monk for a while in Sri Lanka, I think it was, or someplace. And he said, all day long, the monks thought of nothing but food. It's like getting tossed out fires. Well, it was like that when we didn't have any food. One way to think about the precept from the point of view of non-duality is when there's sexual union, there's no subject or object, and there's no lust,

[60:33]

And it's without a desire for fulfillment. I think, in other words, it has a purity of no gaining or no, not, not trying to get something or manipulate or seduce, but that both people are totally without a self-centered motive.

[61:37]

and let the natural process take its course. And then the act becomes a sacred act or becomes an enlightening experience. Sometimes a Chinese book on sexuality has this kind of procedure. eventually dies. Because?

[62:40]

You either break up or someone eventually dies. So, it really never works out. So, I just... I mean, it seems like what we're talking about is this, there's this craving for something. Yeah, craving for something. Either with, you know, eating more than one meal a day or sex or some kind of merging with somebody. The need for intimacy, you could maybe use the term intimacy. Isn't that strong enough? Well no, I think intimacy seems like a more wholesome thing. It seems like there's some other, like maybe you have some feeling in your whatever that is that's disturbing your mind or your body?

[63:42]

Yeah, well, love, you know, is a word that has many connotations. And we use it to describe all aspects of relationship. But we have relationships for various reasons. And they're all pretty low. A lot of them are way down on the scale of love. And they're mostly self-interest. And to feel something, feel some need in myself, feel some... I don't know exactly what you're talking about. It's a little general, but... So that's my propensity to turn to something else rather than just letting the pain in just for a moment or being with that experience.

[64:53]

I think that's why it's good to have some periods of celibacy. to where you're just relying, you're not relying on that. It's so easy to go to something convenient when you're feeling some need. And I think that's also another reason for celibacy and monasticism. to deal with not leaning on someone else or something else and being able to find your own equilibrium. Something to be said about those hermitages.

[65:58]

What? Something to be said about those hermitages. Well, yes and no, but that's a little different because people in a monastic situation practice alone together. And they help each other, and they influence each other. So your practice helps my practice, and my practice helps your practice. So you're actually, you know, when we see somebody dealing with stuff, So it's good to see people with big problems and have people around with big problems that are dealing with it, that are actually taking it on. And it's very encouraging when I see people who have big problems, but day after day they're struggling with them and dealing with them and practicing with them. To me, that's really encouraging. I think I'm repeating part of Andrew's question, but just a part of it, so to focus on it.

[66:59]

This idea of anybody getting into a romantic, say, sexual relationship with anybody, it's always based on a craving, or a sense of needing something outside yourself in order to be happy. And to follow that, to act on that, how can that ever be anything like Buddhist practice? You know, people may get into relationships for various reasons. Maybe for some needy reason or various reasons.

[68:05]

You know, there are thousands of reasons why people get involved with each other. But once you are involved, then if you stay involved, then the involvement itself becomes a means for practice. And then you reflect each other, and then you begin to see, well, maybe I did this for the wrong reasons. Now I'm attached. Well, it could be now I'm attached. But now that I'm attached, how do we deal with it? That's practice. Not break the attachment. This is the situation. How do we deal with this situation now that we're in it? away. That's one solution. Another solution is to stay in the situation and see what's actually real with our relationship rather than what we dreamed about. So attachment, but attachment can be a basis for enlightenment.

[69:07]

If you understand what you're doing, then the attachment actually becomes a vehicle for realization. I'll take your word for it. Don't take my word for it. I really like that question. And one thing, an idea that it brought up for me, though, was that you often say something to the effect that I'm thinking of him saying you always get into a relationship sort of for the wrong reasons, but in another sense, doesn't everyone come to practice for the wrong reasons? Yeah, we don't always come to practice, right. Well, but there's an idea of attainment, there's an idea or some kind of gaining ideas, with some gaining idea.

[70:26]

And then at some point you realize that you are stuck with nothing. You continue, or do you go away? And your comment was... Well, I think ill will is something we harbor.

[71:45]

Craving is something that we're caught by. I think it's like some hook that we put out in the world. We say, I'm hooked by heroin. But actually, we hook heroin. It's the other way around. I think craving will come up. It comes up, you know, and it's all the time. All these feelings and emotions come up because we're human, and that's what it means to be human, is to have all these cravings. But to be able to control, have some control, and not, you know, not catch them as they go by. if we can keep that attitude, I myself wouldn't say that I wouldn't want to not have... I don't want to harbor craving.

[72:59]

And I'm not sure that I'd like to have it come up. I think desire coming up, you know? Desire turns into craving. Craving is an advanced form of desire. And so we want to be careful that they don't become so extreme that when it turns into craving, it's very hard to control. So it's better to control it in a small stage, in its conceptual stage. I have a strong sense of having sorted out And I've found working with various cravings that have happened to me over time, that they are more symptomatic of a deep

[74:24]

Well, by control I meant understanding. You know, you can't control something, you can't control the volcano, right? The volcano is going to do its thing. But understanding, you know, making some effort to understand, what's going on, you know, why is this happening, and then knowing your responses, and knowing that's always going to lead to this, and you don't want to do that, and realizing other ways to channel your energies. Yes? I mean, control is also okay, you know?

[76:27]

I mean, self-control. We have to have self-control. I mean, that's... But it has many different forms. And we think of it in different ways. But understanding is the best way to control ourself, of course. Barbara? Where do we get the idea from human nature that voids can be filled? Voids can what? That voids can be filled. Where do we get the idea that voids can be filled? I hear a lot of people mention that they have some empty thing and all of a sudden they are And why does the idea occur that it can be filled by something that we grab on that's external to us?

[77:37]

Because, I mean, it seems to me that the world is so karma laden that everything you touch on some level has a little quick sting or a bite to it that makes one have a certain reserve in moving around to not just continue to try to satiate one's desire by attaching oneself to things. And I just... It's nice to be able to just let the void be there. Yet the void is a, isn't there pleasure in void? Isn't there pleasure in small taste when there's huge desire? You know, like let's say if you are very hungry, isn't there pleasure in hunger? And isn't taste sweeter with hunger?

[78:39]

Yeah. That's right. I think that's the essence of our practice. And it's time to end. It's a good note to end on, but there's one more question. So I'm glad we ended on this note.

[79:40]

Time to evacuate now. Time to what? OK. So next time, we're going to take up the presets, the four presets of speech. So, steady up.

[80:08]

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