Morning. Joshua said to his monks, the great way is not difficult to follow. One simply must not make any preference. If one says a single word, it stops them either at preference or non-preference. Can you follow me? A monk stood up and said, if one has no preferences, what do they follow after? Joshu said, I don't know. The monk said, if you don't know, why do you say that you do not linger even in non-preference? Joshu said, your business of asking questions is finished. It's best if you bow and retire. Okay, so this is the khan that we've been working with during this practice period.

[01:09]

And in the previous two talks, I talked about the topic of without difficulty, And yet, difficulty. By the way, this scroll comes from my friend, Zhuhaku Daijo, who made it. And it is the Four Characters. Great Way Without Difficulty. The first line of Xin Xin Ming that Sojin has been training us on. Are you okay? It's a little quiet. Maybe it was just because you turned your head or something. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. They're better? Yeah, okay, sorry. Okay, so what I wanted to do today is just to bring us all together and to sort of recount or at least summarize what I tried to say in those first couple of talks, but really spend time and have a conversation about the topic of

[02:15]

practicing with difficulty, the difficulty that may not really exist. So, just on the easy part or the simple part, why did Shonzon say that? Why is that something there? And it goes all the way back, if you recall, to Buddha's actual enlightenment, where he was concerned, at least the way I have it in my mind, that what he had realized was so simple, no one would believe him. And so Brahma, or one of those Indian gods, had to come down and convince him to go ahead and teach. So this, really early on, this notion of how simple things are, this may ultimately be, is embedded in Buddhism, I think, yeah.

[03:25]

So... And carrying on, there's lots of teachings about this, about the simplicity and the lack of difficulty, but we all know that it's really hard from a variety of perspectives, and we did talk about that. Yeah. For example, in that first talk, I recited the poem by Wendell Berry that has as its content the notion that everything we need is here. And that's not just words, that's actually a statement about reality that Wendell Berry, the poet, arrived at, and I think it's quite consistent with what our practice is all about. Everything we need is here means there's nothing missing, nothing lacking. Moment by moment, it's always here, 100%. And yet, and yet, that's not always realized, and a lot of suffering follows on from that.

[04:33]

So, the things I talked about, and could be talked about in many ways, I suppose, but from the koan and considering it, looking into it, I mentioned or talked about three kinds of difficulties. One of them is, right in the koan, say one word and you get stuck. So the first difficulty really has to do with words and it's interesting that this is the case and why is it that words are so problematic and I think that it's the case that we confuse words for what they represent and this is not just about not just affecting or dealing with Zen or Buddhism, it affects everything, our whole reality. So I talked in the first talk about, or maybe it was the second talk.

[05:40]

about Lear, King Lear, who created a whole world through words and ideas that was in stark contrast with reality. And that bias really animates that play and caused a lot of people a lot of suffering. And despite the difficulty with words and the barriers that words might create with the thing itself. It's always been curious to me how in Buddhism and particularly Zen, especially Zen in America, a lot of words get written. Lots of words, lots of books. And so it reminds me of, a little bit it reminds me of the, The dedication by Kim Kesey's book, Sometimes a Great Notion. Anybody know it? It's, to my parents who taught me that songs were for the birds and then taught me all the songs I know and a good deal of the words.

[06:47]

So that's what we got. Somebody told us these words are not meaningful or ultimately limited and then they provide you with lots of words. Another way of looking at the words, of course, as representations, is confusing cookbooks with cooking, with eating, or maps with walking. And you can't get full reading a cookbook, and you can't get anywhere looking at a map. But ultimately, they're useful, but they're limited, yeah? So we talked about words. The second thing that we spoke about earlier goes to this topic of preference and non-preference. And there we explored the whole topic of how the words can be expanded or mean more than just that.

[07:50]

It means aversion. It means disturbance. It means how we interact with the world all the time, moment by moment, as it passes by. and how we get caught either in preference, in picking and choosing, or not, in non-preference, in the void or emptiness. Basically, Josu says that he doesn't linger in either, he just kind of moves along. But for the rest of us, and at least in my experience, there's a lot of disturbance all the time. And I talked about how that disturbance, that aversion to sense information coming in is is exacerbated by all the things already in your head, your memories, so-called storehouse consciousness, how the sensory experience and those memories come together to create even a bigger disturbance.

[08:59]

And so that's a great difficulty, because rather than things are, everything you need is complete, we're in, I'm in, more or less, a constant state of disturbance about one thing or another going on, either internally or externally. The third thing that I mentioned and talked about was this whole notion of, well, now that we're disturbed and we become aware of it, there's always the need to or the thought to do something about it. At least that's one of the responses. There are others. But that's why we're all here. Maybe we're thinking this isn't so great and we need to do something about it. And so it becomes clear, or at least the first way of looking at Buddhist practice is that it's some form of a cure.

[10:10]

for this suffering, for this being caught in preference or non-preference, a kind of stepwise path to enlightenment. And all the while, all the while on that path, there's somebody thinking that they, that we, are indeed going to be saved. And I think that is another difficulty. So those are the things that I talked about and what I want to do with the time today is to talk about practice, practicing with these difficulties. Each one I think has a practice or a response that we are doing. Words is very interesting.

[11:16]

They're very seductive, very beautiful, very powerful. It's interesting that in the precepts and Buddhism generally, there's a lot of admonitions about language and words, and I think there's a good reason for that. And even in other inquiries, scientific inquiry, or my work, for example, I'm constantly making up representations of reality, so-called models, mathematical models of things. And a long time ago, quite a long time ago, it occurred to me, after these models in fact failed miserably more than once, or were limiting, that it really made me look into the topic of modeling or representing quote-unquote reality. And I took on in my work, my professional work, a fundamental skepticism about representation, about science, about words, about models.

[12:23]

where I knew, or I presumed, kind of as a backdrop, that there was something more fundamental, infinitely more complex going on that any of these things could never touch. Not to say that the modeling and the work is not necessary. It's always frustrating to a client when they ask me, is it right? And I say, I don't know. So in the defense of a forecast or a model, I would often say, well, it's not so much the value of that model to predict or to define or encapsulate what's really going to happen, but rather to understand how the system, whatever it may be, actually operates. I think with words, and the practice with words, is something like that. It's not to get caught. Not to think that in some body of words there's something that you don't already know.

[13:27]

One of the problems with all that literature, you think somewhere in that pile of books, there's something that I don't know, that if I learn or get, maybe things will be a little better. That's not true. So having some skepticism about words and using them carefully and precisely and not getting caught or stuck in the words, in the concepts, in the ideas. By the way, you don't have to get very far into the Blue Cliff Record, even the commentary on Case 2 that we just read, to have lots of admonitions about this topic. So, this is in the tradition. Be careful. Don't get caught. Don't get stuck. But you have to pay attention, because the habit is to attach meaning to words, to think words are real, and all of that. So I just think that's the first practice, is to be careful with language, be careful with words, not get deluded into thinking that they are the thing itself.

[14:37]

They're a representation. Useful, but limited. And I think it's best to think of them that way. The second topic, this notion of preference and non-preference, is is really hard because this is where, and again, in the koan, Joshu talks about being stuck, just like being stuck on words, you get stuck in preference or non-preference. I prefer this against that, or I don't like this and I do like that. And it's really, really difficult to get unstuck. There's aversions to all sorts of things, internal and external, and I think that the practice there involves our zazen, where you can observe carefully and look at, shine the light inward, look at that aversion, that helicopter,

[15:48]

going off and some fantasy about what's going on on the ground under it, you know, and being upset about that. That's disturbance. That's aversion. And yet at that moment, there's also the possibility of just letting that sound go straight in one ear and right out the other, just like the wind. So there's a practice there with those either attraction or aversion in that moment-by-moment experience of giving some space and not allowing yourself to get caught and definitely not allowing that storehouse consciousness to download. Because when that happens, then you're really in trouble. Because then you're off and running. At least that's my experience. So I think that one of the aspects of zazen is just like the irritation in your legs or the fly walking down your nose.

[16:57]

we choose to tolerate that irritation just for the moment. And it's generally the experience, and you've all had it, of that irritation that you think is just the dreadful end of the world, in a minute or three, just is gone. And you wonder, what happened to that? What happened to it? That's practice, I think, and that's what we can do with the more compelling and difficult aspects of our lives. And onto the third difficulty, this notion of having some sense that there's a progression or some kind of cure or prescription built into this path. That's, as I discussed a bit earlier, upside down thinking, as has been said.

[18:01]

Everything is really, if everything is complete and whole, if everything you need is here, what need you? what need anybody of a path. And of course, the ancestors, Dogon, worked with this, struggled with this mightily. And basically, this comes down to, recognizing or understanding of wisdom, the fact that everything is indeed just as it is, and understanding the basic aspects of wisdom, prajna, we know it. In Japanese, it's called tai-so-yu, tai, absolute, so, form, you, function. All of those things are operating and interacting all the time.

[19:05]

there's just the need to move with that. Another metaphor that's indicated in the Koan is this notion of movement or walking. And the metaphor that you see in the text is the well-trained monks never stop walking. They never take their sandals off, even in the houses of sages. This just means that they're not gonna get stuck. They're just gonna keep going, keep moving with the flow of time, moving with the flow of change. And again, this is a practice. to not get stuck in thinking that indeed some persistent self is going to be saved. There is no persistent self, and it's definitely not going to be saved. That's all I have to say.

[20:15]

I would like to entertain questions. I'd like to let Sojin speak first, though. Okay, I'm just being polite. So getting back to everything we need is available to us in this moment, it addresses a kind of thinking that there's some sort of lack. Yes. Does that mean we need them? Do we need our difficulties? Well now, that's an interesting question. I think in this practice, difficulties are a gift, can be viewed as a gift. Yeah, they point you. They point you.

[21:17]

They're a pointer. Once I said, as I revealed several times, I had a short, but a number of conversations with Suzuki Roshi, and once I said to him something like, this is all really hard, I'm really disturbed, blah, blah, blah. And he said, good, excellent. So that answers your question. I mean, he's really saying that those difficulties give you a palpable sense. They're a purchase point. They motivate you. Sometimes they motivate you in the wrong way. That's called upside down thinking. Sometimes they motivate you in the right way. Ross. Thank you, Walter. I have a commitment to various points of view How do I discern whether this commitment is stuck?

[22:22]

In other words, I can be open to other points of view, but if I'm really committed to a particular point of view and not yielding, is that being stuck or is that just being committed? And is that a problem? Everything that you hold should be held contingently. Don't believe one single thing. The great physicist, underrated physicist Richard Feynman said, it's really important to be able to detect bullshit, but the hardest bullshit to detect is your own. So if you're skeptical of everything else, you definitely want to be skeptical of things you hold dear, because that's the hardest time, the hardest place to detect error. So you just want to be, just don't get caught. You can hold ideas, and gravity and other wonderful theories, you can hold them, and there's plenty of evidence for them. But if you get to the point of rigidity, it's a problem.

[23:28]

You just want to be loose. I think the word is loose. I have a question for you about no preference but choice within that no preference preference. How do you choose? The operating word is stuck, not preference, not choice. It's stuck. That's the operating word. You can't get out of bed in the morning without making choices and having preferences. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with having opinions that you favor. That's fine. It's just when those become bludgeons or a glue for you to stick your own head in is the problem. And you've made choices in this practice period.

[24:33]

to be here, not to be here. How do you make those choices? Well, I don't know about you, but a lot of my choices are made for me, by circumstance. There's volition, and then there's circumstance. Right? So, and sure, you respond or make choices about circumstance, but my reality, my life is a complex one with lots of competing things that I have to navigate. Now, so it's, you know, the choices are, and this comes back to this very important point. You may, you look at another person and you say, that person made a choice. Maybe they didn't make that choice. Maybe circumstances put them in that position. And so that's where you see something, it's disturbing, download comes, you're making all kinds of decisions about somebody, and you don't really know, ultimately, what's behind it.

[25:39]

More likely decisions about myself. Those are the ones that are hard to live with. paying attention to those opinions and unsticking myself, whether about me or others. It's really good to be soft on ourselves, especially in circumstances like yours, you know, where, you know, it's really hard. It's the hardest thing there is, actually. So, yeah. Jake, yes, please. My question to you is, when you find yourself indulging in that reactivity and that irritation, and from what you said, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but almost taking pleasure in making story upon story, how do you let go of that when you find you're doing that, or do you always try to let go?

[27:09]

Well, first of all, thank you for the question. It's a really good one. And yes, because it's very, very important. You're absolutely correct. Those of us who are a bit edgy actually take pleasure in it. There is a chemical response, a dopamine hit that comes on when you're reacting, I am reacting to some difficult circumstance. And it's just And it has history, of course, but that's not the matter. The matter is, as you say, if that cycle gets going, and that might express itself as me being angry in a professional situation or something like that, where the Where it stops is where I start realizing that I'm being mean or hurtful or ineffective, and then I go, oh, that was really stupid, you know?

[28:17]

So there's a certain restraint that happens, but it's often too late. Sorry, but here's the thing, this comes a little back to Su, in that moment when you catch yourself after the deed is done, so to speak, after that expression has occurred, it's just kind of coming back to center. That's the practice. Well, then you start inspecting right. You start looking right at that, because maybe you're not right. Give the situation some space, because when you think you're right, that's the biggest pot of glue it all. And so you have to, and even in circumstances where

[29:19]

In theory, you are right. You technically are correct. In the social situation, that being right doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. What matters is communicating, is connecting, not being right all the time, even if you could be. John? Just to follow on that, it seems sometimes when I'm Who am I? And it is, okay, if I'm saying this is wrong, how can I adjust so that it becomes right, in a sense of not true or universal, but the thing for this moment? How do I adjust myself so that it's not wrong and I can work with it? Yeah, well, the answer is, what are you trying to do? What is this right and wrong business? You're in an interaction with somebody and you're convinced you're right and you're convinced the other person is wrong.

[30:24]

Okay, where are you going with that? And there has to be or there should be at least some effort for seeking some kind of resolution. And it's oftentimes by letting go of your position. And then the other person's position becomes a little more clear, a little less subjective. Tamar. Well, as you know, sometimes I have to listen to the lectures in the library, which gives me a chance to thump through the Koan books while you're talking. And so I don't mean to put you on the spot, so forgive me if I do. But this dialogue between Joshu and the unnamed monk actually sounds a lot to me like the dialogue that Leslie worked on when she was Chusou, which is Ordinary Way. where Joshu goes to his teacher and says, I don't get it, how am I supposed to practice if I don't have some direction? And Namsen kind of gives him an answer that opens his mind.

[31:28]

And in this case, to me, it seems like the monk is asking perfectly good questions. In fact, the very question that Joshu asked his teacher, Joshu essentially, well there are two interpretations actually. From some of the translations, asking questions there are interpretations where it seems to be and you know I could be wrong because I was you know the joshu saying those are I just wanted to raise that because I think what is the heart of that is not to have you know every single quantization, but is it wrong? Is Joshu really telling this guy it's a big mistake to ask those questions? No. He's not telling him that. Or shut up and stop asking questions. He's not even saying that. Joshu is pointing to it.

[32:33]

And he's giving the monk a chance to go back to his room and have a cup of tea and think about it for a minute. And as far as translations go and words, you know, we're talking about something that was written a thousand years ago and translated variously ever since. And I've read a dozen of them. I like the one Sojin gave me. And that's the one I'm using because I think it has some force to it. It has some punch, which I like. But it's a good question, indeed. Yes, Ellen. So I think what you're saying is that you can't come to this practice thinking or wanting to make things better. But why do you do it? Well, it's a little bit like Peter's question. We experience suffering. And that, or difficulty, or problems, and that animates us to do something.

[33:43]

Some people take OxyContin, you know, some people become Catholics, some people do, you know, the whole range of human experience. Some people run for president, you know. So, I think that this is like the utility of that difficulty or suffering. It animates a practice. It animates you to look into. But I'm asking you. If you don't think it does anything, or you can't approach it as if it does, why do you do it? You wouldn't go pick oxytocin because you think it's going to kill you. No, it does something. It kills you. No, it's a good question. This is excellent. The point is that if you have a gaining mind, if you assume that there is somebody to be fixed, it will not fix you.

[34:47]

That's different than it having its effect, because it will have its effect. Yes, that's what I just said. Yes, Sue. Thank you, Walter. This is related to that. I've been thinking about this a lot since your last talk. What if we didn't come to practice because of suffering or our problems or our struggles? What if that's just a story? And what if we really came to practice to express joyfulness? Well, I think that's good. I mean, that's... But how would that... Could you say something about the relationship to this part about the cure? Because, you know, especially during these long sushis, it's really easy to see, despite all the pain that people are feeling in their bodies and their minds, we see great joyfulness in one another.

[35:51]

and great pleasure in practicing together. Yes, I think that ultimately, ultimately practice is just that. And the fact that somebody may, by virtue of their karma or upbringing, jumped over the suffering part, good for them. It's just that it's very common for us to be working with difficulty, and it's one of the things that has motivated a lot of people. But I absolutely agree, and this actually relates back to Ellen's question, because once you've experienced that joy in yourself and others, and you understand where it comes from. That's practice. Yeah. And I don't mean to speak lightly of suffering, but it's just we're very privileged to be able to practice in this way, and there are people

[37:00]

truly suffering in ways that we're not. Absolutely. No, absolutely. So I just think sometimes we put so much focus on the suffering side of the practice and that it's really important to acknowledge the joyfulness. Yeah, and of course, the suffering that we're talking about is not, the word suffering, speaking of words, is a tough word, because it's the suffering that the Syrian children are experiencing is on another level, and something else entirely. But your point is a really good one, it's a really good question. Well, and the last thing is, I don't also want to, I mean, at risk of sounding like Pollyanna, you know, that's not, I know. Yes, Beth. I'm thinking about, you're saying that everything is whole just as it is. It's everything we need, right? At the same time, I'm thinking about the quote on Alan's CD, everything is broken, right?

[38:07]

And I'm trying to hold those two together. Can you help me? Everything we need is here. everything. In that brokenness? Yes, in the brokenness. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, Ed. Yeah, in your experience at Shuso so far, how have you, can you give me an example? Well, a little back to the question of Jake's question, when I started looking into this koan and I started thinking about this or sensing this, the propensity, my propensity to be irritated and reactive,

[39:12]

So I decided that that was something that I wanted to bring out because it was something that the koan opened in me to think about this. Why is it that I get stuck in irritation? Why is that? That's Jake's question. So that would be probably the best answer I could give. No, not particularly. I am blessed with a extremely good sleep practice. In fact, my sleep practice was so good this morning.

[40:24]

Although I was tired last night, I poked the wrong preset. I poked the 540 preset instead of the 5 preset. I got up at quarter to five instead of quarter past four. Oh, well. But no, to your point, I sleep well, and I did have some trouble at the beginning adjusting my schedule. And it is hard. It's physically challenging when you're doing many things. But overall, to Sue's point, as the days have gone on, oh, by the way, Sue also reminds me of what day it is. You're now at day 42. or whatever, 36, which has been great. But as the days have gone on, I've only deepened my affection and respect for this practice and for all of you. So, yeah. Jed? Yeah, so I wanted to go back to what Sue said about joyfulness, which is that a couple of people that I've been serving with

[41:41]

during the Sashim have noticed that when it comes to Sashim, I start talking to everybody. For many years, I've been trying to stay awake when I'm sitting here. And it's so hard. And now that I'm serving, my body is pushed beyond all limits in terms of pain and my desire to do this practice. So I did something unusual this time.

[42:43]

be in this chair for a thousand before your lecture. And I took a whole bunch of five-hour energy. And I'm having a really good time. Well, gosh, maybe we should put some of that in the tea. I lost my point, which is that probably among the people that use this template, I'm one of the most challenged of all people. And I wanted to offer that to you as another pointer, which

[43:50]

If we find the oxycontin in a little bottle of five-hour energy, sometimes it's useful to do that in order to stay awake for your talk. Thank you. Yes, sure. James. Now, letting go is another one of those catchphrases, right? We hear it all the time. And one of the problems with words is the sticking points of words is that instead of it being a lens into what that may really mean, it becomes just letting go, you know, whatever that, you know. So I think that ultimately letting go, ceasing notions, other words,

[45:04]

is really an essential practice. It's the essential practice. And so when, if you're in sitting dazhen, you have that opportunity to, when the helicopter goes off, when the jackhammer is working, when, you know, et cetera, et cetera, to be able to not get caught, to not get stuck. to learn how to avoid stickiness, yeah. And I think it's a very personal, ultimately a very personal item that arises when you make an effort to do so. It's a practice, and like any other practice, it's something you work with and you'll do, and it takes energy, because you're basically paddling upstream. You're trying to get out of being stuck, out of that eddy. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Janie?

[46:06]

There's a monk, Claude Anshin Thomas, who suffered a lot of trauma, and now he helps a lot of people who go through trauma. One of the stories he tells is that when a car backfires, to this day, at least at that point when I saw him speak, He sprawls to the ground. It's an automatic response to the trauma that he endured. And then, in the next moment, realizes, oh, that was a car backfiring. And sometimes I have that experience when I hear a helicopter or other sounds because of things that I've lived through. And people I've encountered who've lived through them, and there's something about working with them that is difficult.

[47:08]

So my question to you isn't about the complexity of all that, but when the helicopter goes off, when you encounter something that you can't explain, but that you have the visceral something shaken up, how do you love simply? How do you what? Well, the fact is that the so-called storehouse consciousness or memory basically is loaded with stuff. And some people are loaded with much more difficult and tragic things, as you're suggesting, than others. Some people maybe it's lighter. I don't think you can, there's no trick or method or technique for overriding that. I think they call the way of dealing with those kinds of embedded memories and trauma therapy. I'm not joking.

[48:12]

Therapy. I think it's important and valuable for people, in my experience, that have those kinds of problems, and I have known many. I think a therapeutic intervention is valuable, because when you understand or look at how people treat or therapists treat PSTD, It's basically unpacking those memories and making people understand that they are basically ephemeral. But that's not, it's easily said, not easily done, therapy. It's really useful. So here's my follow-up. How does that relate to what you said and what Ted said about oxytocin? And also, what Hosan said yesterday, I believe it was about I don't know about cooperation. I think we were speaking somewhat lightly about the drugs. So I apologize for that. Drugs of all sorts have their purpose and use.

[49:14]

They've been helpful for Jed in this circumstance, which is good. I think that a drug, whether they be psychotropic SRIs or any of these drugs, serotonin inhibitor drugs, whatever, they can be helpful, I understand. We've got therapists in the room, they can talk about it to maybe take the edge off, but ultimately, you've got to get to the bottom of it, and I don't think drugs do that. Yes, John? that happen to a lot of people that I don't think it's realistic to say, and it actually even happens, is that, okay, therapy will take care of it. And I think there are people with circumstances, and it's not just post-traumatic stuff. There may be things that, they're early in the outbreak, a lot of severe disorders.

[50:15]

And, you know, we, And it's like, and to say to them, well, you know, therapy or something like that, but how do we reach them and touch them in a real, immediate way that recognizes the depths of their suffering? And how do we be there for them, with them? In my experience, seeing them, giving that person a sense that somebody is at least looking and feeling and empathizing with that is the best you can do. It doesn't necessarily mean that's a curative, but at least it's a gate.

[51:18]

How do you do it? Well, that would be how I would try to do it. I mean, there's another issue that comes up with people with severe psychological problems, psychosis of one sort or another, which is it's very tricky, which is that they can be very manipulative, right? It's not clean. So you have to be really careful. You have to understand. So for example, how I deal with it, it's like never enter a psychotics world. It doesn't mean you don't see them and you don't relate to them, but you don't join their goofy reality. And if you do, it's off to the races. Then they've captured you rather than you've helped them. So it's very hard. And sadly, in this world of ours, we all have opportunities to deal with this, not professionally, but just walking down the street.

[52:20]

So it's a good question. It's a good question. Before we stop, Sogen, can I ask if you... Yes. The question of right and wrong. There is right and wrong. But if you are centered self-righteousness. So, if there's self-righteousness, then right and wrong become dualistic. The right and wrong are just right and wrong. There are some things that are right and some things that are wrong, and we can't deny that. But when the self is That's a really good summary. The self is at the center of our suffering and being stuck.

[53:27]

So that gives you some hint about what our work is. Thank you, Sojin. Thank you.

[53:32]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ