We are fortunate to have Thich Nhat Hanh with us today. Some of us who were in the base programs met Thich Nhat Hanh and most recently went to his temple in San Jose for a visit, which was a wonderful day. So I'm going to introduce him in the way that I was instructed to. Thich Nhat Dung is a 30-year student of Buddhism, and his aspiration is to continue his study. Good morning. Good morning. Well, I'm a monk, and a monk is supposed to be a backer. So I'd like to beg you something first. Don't worry, not a donation.

[01:09]

I beg you to offer yourself a very, very nice smile. Sometimes in the practice, we are too serious. We're too serious. Seriousness doesn't help a lot. It's good to have certain kind of rituals in the Zen Do or in the meditation hall. However, in practice, we cannot spend only time in the Zen Do to practice. I strongly believe We can practice anywhere. Anywhere. And it's nice. I dropped by earlier this morning and I spent some time in the bathroom. It's nice to know that people practice in the bathroom too.

[02:15]

I don't have much to tell you and I asked May Lynn to see what should I share. And she said, well, it's a good idea just to tell you what happened to me, or to us, when we came to the States. I've been a student in Buddhism for years, for three decades, and that I'm still studying, that means I'm not very successful at all. When I first came to the States, actually I didn't want to come to the States at all. I worked for the Vietnamese Buddhist Church in Vietnam, and actually I was in trouble because of working for the church. Not really for the church, but for what the church stands for. After 1975, when the new government took over, they advocated for what you call class struggle between the rich, the poor, the Americans, the Vietnamese.

[03:40]

And then I decided not to cooperate with them in participation in asking the Buddhists to hate. because it was against, it is against our faith. And I was in trouble because I told them, the person in charge of the movement, that only love, only compassion can heal. Nothing else can. Hatred doesn't heal. Only love can. So I was accused of being a CIA, And take into account we were in the same boat. We were in the same boat. Anyway, so I think that that's some kind of karma for me. And it's good to be accused of something you didn't do.

[04:43]

So I left Vietnam. I was in trouble. So the temple said, well, you better go. We don't want you to be killed. So I left. And I came to the States. When I first came to the States, I was kind of rich. So, I mean rich spiritually, because I went through all kinds of things, up and down, in Vietnam, in refugee camps. So I came to the States, and we started working from the beginning. See, our commitment in life is In the Vietnamese tradition, when you are a Mongol Bikku, your family is everybody. The nature is your family. The people who go to church, to temples, your family. We don't have a single family. So everybody here is my family members.

[05:48]

So we started working in the States One time, let me share with you my experience in the States. The first experience, not too long after I came to the States, about two weeks. Yeah, about two weeks. At that time, I was just kind of, you know, we came in nothing. I had about, I'm not sure, exactly 10 cents in my pocket when I came to the States. So we spent some time doing nothing. There were no Buddhists to support us. No temple, nothing else. There were three of us. I, myself, and two other people. So we stayed in the same apartment. We shared the same apartment because the sponsor just put three of us in this one bedroom apartment. And he said, well, you know, we couldn't find a job here. We didn't have money.

[06:51]

So why don't we start doing something? So one of us decided to go out to the garbage and pick up cans. You know like cans, people drink beer, pick up cans. That's a good way of selling the cans, take back money. I myself, I wanted to also to make some money because we cannot live on the allowances of the sponsor forever. So I went out and found a job as a kitchen helper, and my assignment was to wash dishes. Shu Hong, I just still remember the restaurants. Two days I was fired. The problem was, the cook, who was in charge of the kitchen, told the owner that I played too much with the dishes.

[07:52]

Well, because people wanted me to do fast. And actually, I cannot do anything fast. Well, because, you know, they... Dishes, forks, spoons are our friends. They are buddhist sattvas. Without them, it makes the life harder. Now, you can go to fingers and everything is hard. So I treated them very nicely, and that went against the idea of the cook. So I was fired. And then I was unemployed for a while. And I said, well, it's better to do something. Then we started working, going to school, doing all kinds of jobs to make money. One thing, it helped us. was the story of the Japanese Zen teacher, master, who came to the States way back. And he worked as a porter.

[09:00]

He carried heavy things just to make money. And another Korean master who worked in the laundromat just to wash people's clothes. So it was not too bad. So all of us worked, two of us. decided to have a place to teach the Dharma. So one, three of us two, I didn't. I didn't want to have temples. I didn't want to run over to run the temples. My decision, my vow was to learn more and more about the people, about the Dharma, and to help people understand the Dharma. So the temple in San Jose is one. There's another one in Santa Ana, a little bit bigger, but that's three of us. Later on, I decided to practice on the impermanence, and I was in trouble again because of my English.

[10:12]

I went to a mortuary home. We decided, I saved $450, something, three of us, And because I spoke English, some English. So we decided to have something to meditate on. So my favorite subject is to meditate on dying. Death. Impermanence. So I was sent to a mortuary home to buy a coffin with a casket. I went there, the director was so nice. You know, he said, well, you know, don't worry, we'll take care of everything, just everything, he's just selling all kind of things, and even cremation, you know, don't worry, you know. I said, I didn't have much money, but he, well, it's okay. Now, finally he asked, you know, where's the money? I told him, well, there's no body yet, but I'm thinking of dying.

[11:14]

See, because of my English, I should say, well, I plan to meditate on dying. But what I told him was, I'm thinking of dying. So, when he was so nice, I said, well, if they can sit down here. I sat down. And within five... he went in. I didn't know what happened. Five minutes later, policemen came, firemen came, everybody came, and they decided to send me... what do you call it? 5150? They decided to send me to a psychiatric hospital. Well, I got there and... Actually, I seem to be all together, so they let me go. The experience taught me a big lesson.

[12:21]

It appears to me that here in the States, we are trying or we have tried everything we can to avoid looking at our reality death we are afraid of it now death is the end but in the process is impermanence impermanence we don't want to look at the dying person as a dead as a body we make the body looks nice So the director, the film director told me, when we back up everything, it looks very nice, like you are laying asleep. We don't want to look at the reality. In the practice, I think, and I believe, we have to look at the reality as it is.

[13:28]

You like it or not, doesn't matter. It is it. surprisingly we have started there and people were kind of touched monks were not supposed to to go out and work and make money and then the committee getting together you know they say well you're not supposed to do this we're not supposed to do that all kind of things and they put money in just to have a place for us to stay and In the last several years, we started building the temple. So, that's the first part. The experience of working, I worked too. I also, later on, I went to school, and I graduated, and I started working.

[14:30]

That's quite experience, that's different. from the way we lived in Vietnam. In Vietnam, we didn't work. Well, we worked, but not for the money. But in the States, we worked. Now, you may ask, what kind of job? Want to know? Yes. I told people that they have about 35 children. All of them are teenagers. All of them hate the world, hate the society, because those who were supposed to be close to them was not nice to them. I have 35 kids, 35 teenagers, who are what we call dependents of the court. Their parental rights were terminated

[15:37]

nobody want to adopt them so they end up being kids of the system so like a long-term placement children with GPS with child protective services their parents abuse them or did something wrong the system mess their life up and they have nothing else but anger with themselves, angry with the system, angry with everybody. So many times they, I use the American terms, many times they drove me nuts. However, however, by being nuts, I learned a lot from them. I learned a lot. teach me a lot of lessons.

[16:40]

See, being a monk, everybody says, Venerable Sir, Venerable Sir, they always try to make me happy. But these kids, they always try to make me unhappy. I think that's the only way you can learn about yourself. Right? Everybody calls you over, the Venerable Sir. Right? You feel good. You get used to it. And then people call you shit. I mean, that's impermanence. I consider these kids my masters. To test my patience, my tolerance, my ego, And of course, my compassion.

[17:42]

So I really think that if you can study, you can study anywhere with anybody. Just open your mind, open your heart, be ready to receive the instructions. It's everywhere. I guess Maylene told me that I should have some time for the questions. Actually, I don't know much to tell you anymore. So if anybody is interested in questions. Yes, please. You said just open your mind and open your heart. How do you open your heart? The trick is be with the Dukkha. Dukkha. The first noble truth is Dukkha.

[18:45]

Pain. Suffering. Be in touch with it. As long as you are in touch with people's pain and sufferings, and your own, then you would be, like Sariputta said, Being in touch with the pain, with the sufferings, your mind would be like muddy, like mud, mud, accept anything. Gold, it's okay. Garbage, okay. No objection. I think that's the only way. Many times we try to not open unconsciously because we have certain things to cling to. Look at the other side. Be in touch with the pain, the sufferings, the dukkha of others and yourself.

[19:52]

Yes, the next one. I just have a gazillion nuts and bolts questions running around in my brain. What do you study in school? What's your temple like? Do you guys meditate? How much do you meditate? Who goes there? May Lee said that she used the term, my, your temple. Now, I'm not so sure how you define the word, your. I mean, property owner? or something else. Well, yes, in legal terms, somebody has to apply for the loan from the bank, right? We didn't. Well, we decided to build a temple on cash. And we raised two million dollars in a year. So everything was paid in cash.

[20:57]

However, somebody must be in the paper, right? Title. Three of us did. However, we never consider it's our temple. It's not all our money. Everybody's money. So it's a lie. It's a mischeat. If you use the temple, it's my temple. But if you pay the whole thing, that's different. So actually, we are some kind of guardians for those who are real owners somewhere. Where do we practice? Anywhere. If you read Thich Nhat Hanh's book, Zen Keys, that's the way we grew up. Everywhere. Of course, we sit in meditation hall, of course. We do chanting in the morning.

[22:00]

After sitting about 40 minutes, then chanting, prostrating, with all kind of rituals. 5 o'clock in the morning, 10 o'clock in the morning also, 4 o'clock in the afternoon, 8 o'clock in the evening, on everyday basis, like community. That's the ritual, the services. What we study, Of course, we study the Dharma. And basically, we study the Tripitaka, if you want to say something real. Tripitaka. You know, the three baskets. And... But actually, we are studying about ourselves. That's the essence of it. I came to the States.

[23:01]

Of course, I need to study some extra things. English is of course, and of course I went to school, regular school, and I went to BA, Masters, and still I'm a student now. Why? There are four basic skills that one needs to teach Dharma successfully in a different country. Everything is in the Sutra. The first one is Dana. Dana is to give. The second one is the language. The third one is being with. The fourth one is do what people do. Do what people do.

[24:03]

Going with the flow, I guess. I think that's the whole thing that set up the whole movement for what we call engaged Buddhism. That started, actually I was, last time Thich Nhat Hanh was here, we spent about half a day, and finally he scolded me of forgetting too many things within the history. I said, well, because, you know, people were talking about engaged Buddhism started, you know, Not too long ago, but he said no. Actually, the whole thing started in the 12th century in Vietnam. The monks didn't stay in the temple. The monks, the nuns, went out. Fed the hungry. Fixed the roads. Do all kind of things. So actually, that's what they are doing now. Did I miss anything?

[25:08]

Yes. Can you be more specific about some of the things you've learned from the teenagers that you work with, that you live with? You know, you said they're your best teachers, but I wondered about some specific things you've learned, how you learned them. Let me tell you an experience I've learned, a transformation. The first minute, Well, you all know, we, many times we have been reincarnated. Not, not, not after our death, no. Every day. The first, in the morning, I was maybe a Buddha, a Bodhisattva. Right? I just drove a car, you know, every day I'm going to go to the Zen door, I'm going to sit down, oh, I'm a Bodhisattva. But some guy who drove just across me cut my head. Damn it!

[26:09]

I wear a sweat. No longer Bodhisattva. Something else. There was a young girl. She was 14. Her father passed away because of drugs. Her mother made her do the prostitution to get money to feed her drugs. problem. She was made a dependent of the court. And she intentionally, intentionally get into trouble. We placed her in all kind of foster homes, you know, all kind of foster homes, work homes, everything. And she always tried to get into trouble. She stole things, not much, two dollars. She went to the store, pick up, intently. And one time she was in the police department station and I was a social worker.

[27:17]

I went there in order for them to release her. She was extremely angry because whenever she's angry, I went there. I don't, I didn't, I never want my kids to stay overnight in the police station. She was extremely angry and she, scolded me for being there whenever she's in trouble. Damn it, how did you do this? Actually, I told her when I waited outside, because I told her, I looked at her face. I told her, because I care. That's it. Because I care. Within a minute, she cried. So I think that it doesn't matter. Some people have a certain mask, certain way of dealing with things. But within, within, deep, deep, deep in their heart, they have what we call Buddha nature, the seed, the potential.

[28:31]

So transformation, if you do, you open the right door, You know, you can help a lot of people. That's one. The second lesson I've learned is, again, the Buddha said, only compassion, only love can heal. Many of my kids, they are full of anger, too much anger. too much. And they don't know where to throw their anger. And they blame the society, the church, the court, the lawyers, the social workers, everybody but themselves. If they start to learn about themselves, they can see a way out. Or in the American term, when they can see a light, the light, the tunnel, at the end of the tunnel, they will do it.

[29:41]

Not too long ago, the girl I told you, she came back to see us. And she insisted talking to me. She came and said, Tan, my name is Tan, they call me Tan. Hey Tan, here I am, everything. I said, oh yeah, so what Jennifer, what are you doing now? And she said, well you know, it's my karma. I said, what's wrong with karma? And she said, well I had you before I emancipate Number 18, I am now in the MSW program. I'm going to be a social worker. I'm going to work with child welfare services. I strongly believe that she would be, she will be a kind social worker. Any more questions?

[30:46]

Yes, please, sir. Do you still have a home for teenagers? Or is that something that you have stopped doing? Actually, well, I didn't. I have never had a home for teenagers. I worked for an agency. Like a county system. In the county we have child welfare services. I work for the county system. And I place kids in different foster homes. And you still do that? I still do that. Well, to make money. Well, I need money, though. I need money, not I want money. See, because I'm going to school, I need to pay tuitions. So with our money, You cannot do anything. Right? Money is not bad. The way you treat it may make a difference. Yes, the lady.

[31:51]

Please, the lady before first. Yes, please. Well, I'm also a social worker in the hospital, probably working for 5150. And I work primarily One of the things that I find is that I have to be very firm and very confrontive. And I know that that's loving. And I get that response, ultimately, from the work with the patients. But initially, I do not get that response. And I guess my question is, sometimes I think, well, maybe I'm, I know it's really important to have a very tight frame, that that's really symbolic of the family that they didn't have or whatever, you know, in a lot of different situations.

[32:59]

But then sometimes I feel like getting into that way of being I wonder about it. I always err on the side of being more firm because I find that people need that more than they need what appears to be what we traditionally call a comfort, compassion. You know what I'm saying? Yes. I guess I'm just trying to feel how I can... I worry about a kind of rigidity. Again, one of the patra told us, Buddhism must be like water. Must be like what? Water, not the drink, the water. When we keep the water in a vase, it takes the shape of the vase.

[34:01]

When we put the water in the bowl, it will take the shape of the bowl. vase or bowl water is water the same thing there's no fixed formula nothing is fixed if as long as you get attached to a certain fixed formula it's against truth so what do you call middle path jack cornfield told me one you know This is what I do. I go with my heart. Practice it. Do it. And after a certain point, you don't have to think about it. It's you. You live it. So you don't have to worry too much to reach it or not to reach it. The trick is practice compassion. Look at everything. even when it appears to be no sufferings exist.

[35:07]

Many times we just do compassion when we see what is a pain, somebody was hurt, you know somebody was killed, not really. On bath this morning, I took bath here, And I just wandered around the barge station and sat down there and looked at the sun, looked at everybody. I've seen a lot of pain in people. Rushing out of barge. Rushing. Rushing to where? You know, there, maybe that person was not aware of his pain. But I've seen it. The way people walk. The way people run. It says a lot about the people. Please. You said you were still a student. I'm wondering what you studied in your doctoral program. Studying in the doctoral programs?

[36:15]

Yeah, are you? Yes. No, I didn't mean that. Yeah, I'm a student. in the doctoral program, and my teacher was, is Donald Rothbard. No, I didn't mean that. Well, as a student, of course. See, we are stuck in the meaning of student. Student means there's always things to learn. Maybe we use the word learner, huh? Learner. There's always things to learn. It doesn't, I'm not in our heart yet. Right? So as long as you are not a Narahat, there are still things for you to learn. And as long as you learn, therefore, you are called student. It doesn't matter what people call you. You have to be honest with yourself. I am honest with myself. Yes?

[37:17]

Have you ever experienced not following your heart? not falling apart there are some circumstances not really not falling apart but which part and i'll talk to you about not not experience not experience now actually there are two parts of what is hot Right? And a social worker heart. I mean, sometimes I, of course, actually it came from, it was perceived like, you know, being nasty to people. However, the way I do it, actually the motivation was compassion. You know, many kids, they seem to be attached to a certain kind of foster homes, and the foster parents sometimes they have like a codependency, all kind of things.

[38:28]

And if we think that it's not healthy for the kids, I always try to move the kids to somewhere else. Because if not, you know, in the long way, the kids is not going to be a healthy person mentally. So, people may perceive it as not compassion because the kid likes to be there, loves to be there, being loved. But what kind of love? What kind of care? That's a different story. Well, three. Yeah, please. I just have a question. I was wondering if you've been back to Vietnam and what it's like for you now, or if you consider returning? Three years ago, I went to Plum Village and be the headmaster for the ordination ceremony for Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis.

[39:32]

Nhat Hanh asked me, would you mind going back to Vietnam? I said no. And I went after the ceremony, the ordination. I went back there. I went back there because there are certain things we want to be sure that the dharma is still practiced properly. And I did. I did. I went there twice. Now the idea of coming home, coming back to Vietnam, no. Not because I don't want to, but because, like to Japan. We are not welcome to stay there. We are still not welcome.

[40:37]

Who knows in the future? Yes, please. My question is, or hatred, since you said you were not an arhat. So I assume that you do occasionally act out of something other than compassion or kindness. And so, if and when you do, how do you feel and how do you respond to that? Acting out on hatred Maybe I act out, but not negatively. I have experience of being violent against.

[41:38]

Still in my head. Still a scar, a big scar. When they put me in a cell, I didn't know. I said, I want to wear my robe with me. And they asked me to take the robe off. I did it. and a young man pushed me into the cell and using AK-47 hit me on the head. I still have the scar, big scar. I think that unconsciously I touched my head because it was, it hurt. And blood, I saw the blood. That was the first time I was hit in my whole life and the only time. I was really, I was really angry. I was upset because of the blood. It hurt. I looked back. He was a very innocent young man. I looked back, and what I said was, it hurt very much.

[42:40]

I had thoughts of being calling him an animal or something. You know, but look at him. He was the victim. He grew up in this system and from then he didn't know what was going to cause an effect. He was trained, he was raised within a system, a very closed system. He didn't know anything else. That was the time, I think that was the worst time. Yeah, there's a lady. There's somebody, please. Is anger and compassion mutually explosive? No. The question is anger and compassion. You know, I strongly believe that we put a lot of negative labels on anger.

[43:52]

The problem is we consider anger as a negative. But we have been conditioned to be angry all the time since we were a kid. So what we do is look at anger. Now when you say anger, if you look behind anger, there's fear. fear. You are afraid of losing something or being hurt something. Now, behind the mask of fear, that's about yourself. Oh, I'm like something, you know. So, it's just from this one lead to another one, lead to another one. It's not too bad if you feel, if you find yourself still angry. Not too bad. Anger is not bad. The bad thing is, you act on it.

[45:01]

You know? Being angry is not too bad. No, not bad at all. When you do things, a lot of people lie to themselves. Even within my community. Some people fight with each other. I say, oh no, no, no, please, please, don't fight. Oh no, no, no, I'm not fighting, I'm talking. They lie to themselves because that's a negative thing. As long as you are angry, ha ha, I am angry. What's behind my anger? So, within anger, you can see the compassion within yourself. Yes? Anybody? It's a question about engaged Buddhism, that in many Buddhist places, the tradition used to be and still is that there's so much pain that one needs to look at one's own pain first.

[46:04]

So how do you know, how do you understand the balance between looking at your own pain and going out and meeting the pain of the world? It appears to me that we understand there are two different worlds there. My own pain and your pain. My conception about that world, perception of Buddhist, Vietnamese, they are not separate. Now, of course, we have to practice some work in order to go out. Because if not, Not only you cannot save, because I heard, it was nice, you know, I heard you, you know, I vow to save sentient beings, sentient beings are, I vow to save them.

[47:09]

The point is, if we use the term save, who are we? What kind of power, what kind of authority can we save others? In the Vietnamese tradition, we say transform. Now, sentient beings, not Mr. A, Mr. B, Mr. C, no, not at all. Not at all. One thought that arises, I say, oh geez, after the talk, I'm going to go to a shopping because there's a sale. That's sentient beings. He said, Anon, please, transform. OK, we are practicing here. Take a deep breath. And then the second thought is the Bodhisattva. You transform. Sense the beings to us, not the human beings outside, but the thoughts of being attached to the samsara world.

[48:16]

Now, in practice, engaged, I think we are stuck with the language. If we use engagement, engage, who engaged? Engage in what? Right? The verb is engage, of course it is who engaged? Engage in what? And we are talking about the results. I engaged in doing this one, so what's happen next? The Vietnamese tradition, the process itself is a Dharma school. the process. Because if not, we end up being very, very frustrated. You know, I try to help him, I try to help out, and you are going to go against, all kind of things. The process is a Dharma school for us to learn. Of course, we have to be aware of what's going on in us.

[49:19]

Because if not, we mess up the whole thing. Instead of helping people, we become a part of their problem. I think that teaching was taught to the drunk king in the 13th century. Did I answer your question? Kings are numberless.

[50:03]

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