Joshu is about 20 and it's probably around 50, maybe 40 and 50. So Joshu asked Nansen, what is the way? Connection. Okay, so a little technical help here. I'm not sure where the internet is. I don't know. Are you down here? Well, I need you 24G now, it's supposed to be 5G. So let's see over here and slide this down. We want to get to 5G, so move it all the way up.

[01:01]

Why do you know that? 24G. I don't see 5G, damn it. Another thing you can do is to turn off the video. Okay. See if that's the video. All right, so let me know if my voice is freezing up. I come over here every week with Kika and Sojan and have no problem with the, but we don't do all this, we have no problem with the network here, but for some reason this morning it's a problem. Okay, good. So this is Ordinary Mind is the Way. So Joshu asked Nansen, what is the way?

[02:04]

And Nansen says, ordinary mind is the way. And so Joshu says, well, how can I move towards that or how can I understand what that is? And Joshu says, if you try to go towards it, you stumble past it. So then Joshu says, well, if that's the case, then how can I ever know what it is? And Nansen says, it's not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is just a delusion and not knowing is just a blank mind. Once you actually experience or see this, you'll find that it's as vast as outer space. How can it be a matter of right or wrong? And at that moment, Joshu had an enlightenment type experience, a very short case.

[03:13]

So my question, for me, the question is, okay, what is ordinary mind? What are we talking about? Is it average mind? Is it what the average of everybody? Is it a kind of an essential mind that's just been really stripped down? Is it everything that goes on? Is that ordinary? The way they're trying to make it into something in their mind? And Nansen then won't come out and tell Joshu, Terry's on it. They'll have, well, not exactly different opinions, but different ways of approaching that. So here's how I approach it, or here's how I relate to it. It's about our consciousness and our awareness, how our mind works. And we all have some kind of suffering or else we wouldn't be doing this.

[04:21]

We wouldn't be practicing unless we had some kind of question, some kind of agitation, some kind of problem. That brings us to everybody to practice, brings us to a spiritual practice. So somehow our minds are not really settled in some way. So what is ordinary mind? And we talk about, in mindfulness practice and other spiritual paths as well as Zen, we talk about, well, just be mindful. Be mindful of what's happening and be present at each moment. And I can hear, close your door. I can hear. Maybe she's my computer. Okay. We're in a little technical interchange here.

[05:30]

So there you are. Okay, go ahead, can you hear me? We can hear you. We can hear you. Go ahead. Okay, great. And video. Let's see. All right. I'm not sure what's... Well, you go ahead and keep talking. All right. I'm keeping talking while I'm hearing this out. Oh, I'm supposed to keep talking.

[06:38]

So my experience is that what I would call ordinary mind is more a matter of letting go than it is a matter of going towards something. So... This is kind of like... Ron, if I could interrupt. I was following before the interruption. If you could go back and just read the colon, I would appreciate that. Okay. We're really low on time though. That's the problem. Do you want to continue about how you work with it, Ron?

[07:52]

I think I just want to continue because I'm just going to run out of time, I'm afraid. Oh, let's see. I can... One thing I left out, actually, is the verse that goes at the end of it. So I... Yeah, I just don't have time to go over it again. There's a verse at the end which goes, the spring flowers, the moon in autumn, the cool breezes of summer, the winter's snow. If idle concerns don't cloud the mind, this is your best season. So a lot of... Several of the commentators kind of downplay the verse.

[08:54]

It's kind of interesting. They don't criticize it at all. They mention it, but it's not an important part of what they're talking about. But for me, the verse is really important. I'll read it once more. The spring flowers, the moon in autumn, the cool breezes of summer, the winter's snow. If idle concerns don't cloud the mind, this is your best season. So these idle concerns are what we talk about. Actually, you can also talk about them as mental factors in one of the four foundations of mindfulness that we get stirred up with, that our minds are so complex and so capable of imagining and figuring that we operate at a level that's hard to be simple. The hardest thing for us, for many people, is just to be simple

[09:59]

because we're working at a level of stimulation which is so high and developed in terms of what our minds can do. So ordinary mind, for me, is more a matter of letting go than it is trying to be mindful or trying to be present. Rather than trying to be something, just letting go or relaxing the kind of stirred up quality that's in a lot of our minds. How to just relax that rather than move to try to be something or try to have a certain kind of attitude. And for me, that's what ordinary mind is. It's allowing the mind just to be as is without having an idea about what as is is. We don't know what our mind is. So it's just being able to let the mind be open.

[11:09]

I mean, open mind, you can't go wrong with an open mind unless you can never make decisions and that's a problem. But a relaxed and open mind is what I would consider more to be ordinary mind. And as soon as we're trying to make our mind into something, an ideal, a Zen ideal, or a Buddhist ideal, or some other kind of ideal, it's a necessary kind of practice. I'm not criticizing that, but there's a problem with that, that's all. And to recognize that problem, which is that we're fixating on an image that we have rather than paying attention to what we actually are. So actually, just the mindfulness practice, the third mindfulness foundation of mental states and mental factors

[12:12]

is all about just paying attention to what our mind is doing. Not from a big distance, not like just feeling what our mind is doing is a better way to say it than being detached and analytical. Just feeling what our mind is doing and where there's agitation, just paying attention to that without having to make a judgment about it. And for me, it's necessary. This is a practice which is necessary because I'm always thinking about something. I'm always imagining something or a very active kind of mind. And it's mostly unnecessary. I know it's unnecessary. In a way, I would say it's a kind of escapism. And I don't think I'm alone in this. That's why I'm talking about it. That we want to escape from what we find boring, or too simple, or not interesting, or not inspiring.

[13:16]

And a lot of our life is very mundane. Walk down the hall, you turn on the water faucet. We always use washing dishes as a model of this. But forget washing the dishes. It's been overused. But just think about all the things you do during the day that are just so... You don't even think about them. And at the same time, your mind is going on with something that's more interesting, something that you're going to do later. Because what this is happening right now is just not that interesting. And I think that a problem is that we get used to a level of stimulation, particularly with the internet, all this stuff right here. That is endless amount of absorption that we can have with the internet and all the kind of material that we can find on it. And so we get used to that level of stimulation. And to drop down below that is uncomfortable. So that's what Zazen is. Drop down to a lower level of stimulation and just breathing.

[14:21]

And our body is. And just settling. And hopefully just letting go of all the turmoil or the agitation that's in our mind. And that's why Zazen is so critical and so important. It gives us a chance to slow down, actually. But in my experience, that's still not enough. It's a 24-hour-a-day practice. The mind is so powerful. And I find that true with myself constantly. As Suzuki Roshi said, the effort that we make is letting go of what's extra. And that's all the quotes from Suzuki Roshi. That's the one that I remember the most keenly. And it stands out for me the most.

[15:23]

Our effort is to let go of what's extra. And how you do that, I can't say. You know, if there's a formula for it, it won't work. You can't make a formula for that. It's a matter of each person having to feel what that is. So my experience is that when I can kind of slow down and take each thing as it comes, no matter how small or big it is, and just do that without making a big deal about being mindful, actually. Just take each thing as it comes. Why? Because that's what's here. No more profound reason than this is what's in front of me right now. And of course, we have to plan our day.

[16:26]

We have different structures for our day. If we're working, there's plenty of tasks and things we have to take care of. Still, it's one thing at a time. I remember somebody asked Ruitsu, Suzuki Roshi's son, when he became, I think it was the abbot of, what's the name of the temple? The big Soto temple in Japan. Eheji. Eheji. Thanks, Karen. When he became the abbot of Eheji, or at least a presiding abbot for that period of time, somebody asked him, well, how do you handle all this responsibility? He says, I just take one thing at a time. So that's exactly what I'm talking about. And no matter how many other kinds of worries or problems you can foresee, just taking care of each thing one at a time without making it into something profound, necessarily.

[17:27]

It's not. It's very simple. It's very ordinary. And I also thought that the fundamental problem we have is so basic of our mental chatter, that really that chatter is nothing more than the second noble truth, Buddha's first sermon, which is that the reason that we're dissatisfied so much is because we're constantly wanting something different than what we have. And we thrive on, especially in our society, I'll just say it again and again, we thrive on stimulation and being inspired. And it's normal for humans to be that way. But the problem is we get carried away. So my practice is to, if you see all that going on and do my best to take one thing at a time

[18:31]

and just, that's it, and not to make a big deal about that either. So that's, I think I'll stop there. And I'm open to any comments or you feel differently about what I've been talking about. Comments or questions are most welcome. Thank you so much, Ron, for such an inspiring and accessible talk. We do have a couple minutes for questions. If you have a question, please put your, go down to the participants box at the bottom and raise hand, raise your digital hand and I will call on you. Let's see, you can also put a question in the chat box. And Ron's email is in the chat box. So, does anyone have a question?

[19:40]

Or a comment. Yes, or a comment. Gary Ardham. Gary, would you like to unmute yourself? Sure thing. Ron, the poem made me think of an expression of get out of your mind and into your senses. Can you say anything about that? Yeah, the problem with that would, I mean, as a practice, that's fine. But again, if you want to get out of your mind, then you've already made a decision that your mind is such and such. And rather than being open to what it is every moment. In other words, it's a kind of what you're talking about as a kind of a practice. And just like concentrating on breathing is something that we do in zazen,

[20:42]

which is a practice. But ultimately. Yeah, I'm not saying you negate your mind. I'm just saying the poem was all sensual. There was no mind in it. Um, well, they say when idle concerns do not cloud the mind. But it's still your mind is still working. And your mind is one of the senses also. So as a practice, you know, to just focus on hearing would be kind of like focusing on breathing. We can concentrate on that. And be more simple, more ordinary in that sense. But also there's problem with that if we stay with that full time.

[21:45]

Nice to see you. Our time is just, we have one minute left. Judy Fleischman, can you ask a really quick question? Comment? Yeah, thanks, Ron. It's nice to see you now. I noticed recently, to calm myself, I count the breath, which I haven't done in a long time. And one of the things I noticed is I'll start at, say, going to five. And then naturally, if I feel into it, it seems to count down. So I just need to go to four and then three. And then I sort of and I wondered if you could say a word about what is that? You tell us, I don't know. What's your experience? Well, I think it's that sense of, it's a practice, right?

[22:53]

But I don't will myself into presence. And that's... What you're saying is gentle and not heavy handed. Yeah, and it's very natural. And if you try to describe it, you already should have people wash out their ears with the waters or whatever. Yeah, I hear that.

[23:17]

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