Carolina, what did you say about... something about language and talking and problems? That's what somebody said to you. Oh, yeah. He said, once we learn to speak, we never get a moment's peace. Once we learn to speak, we never get a moment's peace. So there's a story called The Dependent Core Rising, a phenomenon which goes something like, depending on the permeations of language, karmic consciousness arises. And depending on karmic consciousness, we have language permeations. I think this is a, yeah, this is about dependent core rising.

[01:09]

It's also like epistemology. It shows that the, it speaks about the support of karmic consciousness is the permeations of language, the influence or the effects of of linguistic activity in consciousness creates these lots of permeations or, you know, permeations and scenes. I call it permeation. So the effects of when our active consciousness formed images and words, the consequence of that is called language permeations or some consequence of the mind permeating

[02:10]

imagining and making words. And so these permeations, these consequences, and these consequences then become the seeds for further karmic consciousness. So, karmic consciousness gives rise to these permeations, and these permeations are the support of karmic consciousness. So it just goes round and round like that. As long as we use language, we keep this the system going, but it's still possible to become free by receiving permeations from someplace else. And the permeations from someplace else are the permeations of wisdom coming from karmic consciousnesses that in the past have received permeations from wisdom and have become liberated from karmic consciousness and the effects of karmic consciousness.

[03:35]

And then this state of liberation and wisdom touches the karmic consciousness ascension beings and gets converted back into language and images But the effects of this wisdom practice is a different kind of permeation. So another set of permeations start to develop, which are the permeations of wisdom teachings and wisdom practice. And it leads to a state eventually where the permeations are transformed into wisdom and then there's no more support of karmic consciousness which i told you before we have what's called the true body of buddha which then as i said earlier that body of buddha manifests body manifests and awakens beings. But really also the teaching is in the awakening of beings, in the awakening of living beings, don't look someplace else for the manifestation of the Buddha.

[04:45]

The Buddha is not something in addition to the beings being liberated. And beings being liberated is nothing in addition to the Buddhas. So the next poetic image that I offer to you comes from supposedly a Zen teacher named Yuen Mun, which means cloud gate, Chinese Zen master. And I think the question was, I'm not sure. The question was, where are all the Buddhas born? And his response was, probably to his own question, eastern mountains, the eastern mountains travel over the waters.

[06:00]

Where the eastern mountains are traveling over the waters, that's where the Buddhas are born. I wrote that out and with Leon's kindness we made copies. If you like, you can have a copy of that statement by the ancient teacher. Eastern mountains travel over the water. This is the water I was referring to earlier, which is different from... It's not, you know... The earlier one is mountains, rivers, trees, grasses, the great earth. In other words, all phenomenal things in the immediate present is the manifestation of the path of the ancient Buddha.

[07:04]

So when we enter into the immediacy... the living presence of our body as it lives in relationship with our total environment. That's where the practice is really living. If we take care of the appearance of the mountains and the rivers and our bodies and minds in a proper way, we enter into the immediate present of these phenomena, which is where the Buddha way is. That's one teaching which we offer today. In that teaching, the rivers are on a par with the mountains. They're on the phenomenal par. In this story, the image is a little different. Here, the mountains represent mountains and rivers and trees and grasses and the great earth and all living beings. And the waters represent the insubstantiality of mountains and rivers and living beings.

[08:10]

So where the mountains, and the mountains are always in, what do you call it, they're always intimately sitting with their insubstantiality of phenomena, are living inseparable from their insubstantial. All phenomena are insubstantial, ungraspable. The waters are also the way that the mountains are free of our stories of the mountains. So we see the mountains, we see the mountains, we see the mountains that appear to us are the appearance of the mountains as a result of our stories about the mountains. But the mountains really are free of our stories of them and that's the water that they sit on, that they travel over. And where the mountains travel over the water, where our phenomenal experience is intimately living with its insubstantiality,

[09:27]

That's where the Buddhas are born. They're not just born in substantiality. They're born in the intimacy of insubstantiality with the appearance of substantiality. Mountains look substantial. They appear substantial. And if we're kind to that substantiality, that appearance of substantiality, we will realize the water. And in realizing where the water of selflessness meets the appearance of self. That meeting is where the Buddhists are born. Now the imagery is the mountains are always, at the bottom of the mountains there's always water. And that's almost, you know, it may be true, you know, in the apparent world, when it's raining, there's always water around the bottom of the mountains.

[10:39]

And the mountains are all sitting on top of water, in the sense that the mountains are all sitting on the oceans. Image, imagine. But what this means is that all appearance is intimately related to the way the thing that the occurrence is projected on is free of the projection of appearance. So the way we're free of our projections of substantiality or self is always present, which again is the way the pure and the impure coexist in our life. is the mountains and the water. And so this ancient Zen teacher said that, and then later another Zen teacher, another Zen teacher named Dogen, commenting on this image of the mountains and the water, said that

[11:55]

the toes of the mountain. The feet, the foot of the mountain. Mountains have feet, right? The foot of the mountain. But he actually says, the toes of the mountain, where they touch the water, the water splashes up. So you got the mountain with the feet. And at the tip of the feet, you have the toes of the feet of the mountain. And where those toes touch the water, the water splashes up. And where the water splashes up at the tip of the mountain is where this Buddha is born there. Enlightenment happens where the phenomenal world meets selflessness, because selflessness is about the phenomenal world. But we have to go from the top of the mountain

[12:58]

down the mountain down [...] to the foot of the mountain and all the way the toes of the mountain where the toes of the mountain touch reach their selflessness and the selflessness splashes up and sets the mountains walking over the water it doesn't disturb the mountains but we have to we have to exhaust the mountains we have to go all We have to embrace the entire mountain right down to the foot, to the tippy toe of the mountain. And the way we exhaust it is by practicing compassion towards this huge phenomenal world, all the way to the end. And at the end is where phenomena reaches its insubstantiality, and that's where the Buddhists are born. another image for basically practicing compassion with our phenomenal life and realizing the insubstantiality and selflessness of all phenomena by that thorough engagement of compassion.

[14:12]

So it's actually, that's rather simple in a way. I could imagine that that's simple. But it's hard. It's hard to be really that thorough and that total in our government. Now for a thousand years people have taken care of that teaching of the eastern mountains traveling over the water, and now you have it, so you can take care of it. And maybe the teaching will go on endlessly to help people find the place where Buddhas are born.

[15:23]

Any questions about how to walk to the tiptoes of the mountains? Please. I have a question about the Buddhas being born. Yes. Thanks for the question about Buddhas being born. You're welcome. It seems like I've been taught that nothing is born and nothing dies.

[16:35]

and that Buddhas are in everything. So I don't understand how the Buddhas can be born. Well, the way Buddhas are born is that beings who are not Buddhas are awakened and liberated. That's the birth of Buddha. So mountains that are trapped in big mountains are not the birth of Buddha. It's the mountains, when they're tippy toes splashing in the water of selflessness, that that liberation of the mountains, that freedom of the mountains, the freedom of the trees, the freedom of the grasses, the freedom of the beings, all that freedom from entrapment in the substance of the mind, that's the birth of Buddha. But Buddha teaches that things are basically in a state of nirvana.

[17:41]

Things are basically peaceful. But also when bodies are touched by sensuous phenomena, they give rise to consciousness in which you imagine that things are more complicated and it's time to reproduce. But basically things are in a state of, things are basically nirvanic, things are basically at peace and free. So we've got that working for us, we just need to go take refuge in it. And the way to take refuge in it is to practice with everything that doesn't look like that. With everything that looks like it's born and dying, we practice compassion, and then we understand, oh yeah, basically all this stuff that's born and dying is nirvanic. That peace. So the Buddha, actually the Buddha didn't teach that everything was nirvanic at the beginning.

[18:47]

Buddha taught the truth of suffering first. Some people say that, some people tell the story, Buddha first taught everything's nirvanic and people said, huh? And then he said, well, I want to teach you the truth of suffering." You say, well, what is it? You know, we've got suffering, what's the truth of it? You say, well, the truth of it is that, you know, it has an origination, it arises. That's the story of the origination, right? It arises from the results of karmic consciousness, and so on. So actually, in the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra, there's a point in the sutra where, you know, One of the Bodhisattvas says, Well, you taught the Four Noble Truths and you taught this and taught that, and now you're saying everything's basically nirvanic. What's going on? So at different points the Buddha taught different ways. But in the Four Noble Truths there's the first two truths which are the world of karmic consciousness.

[19:48]

truth of suffering and the truth that the origination of suffering occurs in karmic consciousness. But the third truth is that there is nirvana. And nirvana is the practice which you do with the first two truths. You practice with the first two truths and then you have nirvana. And nirvana is there's no birth and death in nirvana. Nirvana is freedom from birth and death. But Buddha's unafraid of birth and death. They touch birth and death, even though it doesn't exist, they touch it because they care for the beings who live there. And when they touch it, beings make stories about the touch, which can be helpful. But they're born where the freedom of understanding touches the clinging of ignorance.

[20:51]

Then they get born. Before that, they're not really born, but they get born in relationship to suffering beings, and they give teachings. So that's their birth. Well, not just giving teachings, but they give teachings in such a way that people are awakened. They're not really... there until the people wake up. So that's the birth. Okay. Yes, thank you. I feel embarrassed that I got caught in the literal words for a moment. Okey-doke. Thank you. Okay, bye. yep everything will become everything hopefully in a helpful way any other offerings today yes please come

[22:18]

I wonder if you could say more about knowing and realizing. And my question is about how it seems to me that when I'm mindful, I know, I can know that I'm trapped. I don't always, but that's a way to see the entrapment. I guess I don't understand. I don't think it's linguistic, but what is the difference between knowing and realizing? What's the difference between knowing and realizing? You can't know that you're free. What's the difference between knowing you're free and realizing you're free? Well, I'll speak to that first.

[23:42]

Knowing that you're free is impossible. Realizing you're free is basically to accept that you're a moral being, accept moral responsibility, and respect it. that respecting moral responsibility is, it realizes freedom. But at that time that you do that, you may not think, you're likely not to think, oh, now I actually know that I'm free, that what's happening now is freedom. I know this is freedom. You might think, You might think, I'm not free. You might think, I am free. And if you think you are free, you might think, but that's just what I think. It doesn't mean I'm free.

[24:43]

So maybe my question is more about what is freedom. Freedom is respecting moral responsibility. That's freedom. Freedom. You know, like it's respecting moral responsibility. What's moral responsibility for somebody who wishes to live for the welfare of others is responsibilities to living for the welfare of others. So respecting your responsibility to live for the welfare of others, that is realization of freedom. You say okay? I said okay. You said okay. I guess okay means I heard you, I think. Yeah, I need to let that spin. Yeah, and you said let it spin? Yeah, let that spin you, and see if when it spins you, you can remember what I said.

[25:47]

Like I wrote down here, when I was taking calculus, my teacher said, that Leibniz said, if you don't understand a theorem, the proof of a theorem, memorize it. And see if you can remember it so well that when your teacher is asking you questions, you can still remember it. So I could say a little bit more about that to give you a feeling for it, even though I'm not wishing you to get to a place of knowing. I more would like to guide you to a place of respect and notice how your mind looks for knowing, and realize that that's not respect, that's more getting to judgment. So, for example, if you have some idea of what moral responsibility means and you think you're fulfilling it or not, or you see other people who you think are fulfilling it or not, Okay, that's not moral responsibility, that's actually a moral, that's a moral act, more or less.

[26:59]

It's like a skillful judgment or unskillful judgment. But respect for skillfulness and respect for the responsibility to be skillful is not the same as judging whether you're skillful or not. Like you kind of like think, oh, I know that was skillful, or I think that was skillful, or I think that was unskillful. So judging your moral skillfulness or unskillfulness, that's part of what you have a responsibility to be moral with. You understand, oh yeah, those are some of the things I would practice, I have more responsibility to. I have a responsibility to be kind to those judgments. And if there is any unskillfulness or skillfulness, I have the responsibility to be kind to what I think they are and what they are. But I don't know the freedom there.

[28:03]

I just heard that that is free. Freedom needs to be free of my judgments, otherwise that wouldn't be freedom. I need to be free of a judgment. A therapist once told me that I accepted too much responsibility. But he didn't say moral responsibility. Well, that's sort of the main one. Right. Responsibility is basically moral responsibility. I don't know if there's another kind of responsibility than moral responsibility. And again, I like the English words responsibility because it has sort of two dimensions. One is responsibility means that you have contributed to the situation, or not you have, but your karmic consciousness contributed is partly contributed to the current state of your mind. People say, you know, you're responsible, you got yourself into this mess. It's not really that you got yourself into this mess, karmic consciousness got you into this mess.

[29:05]

And everybody's, that's all everybody's got, so you could say you got yourself in a mess. But the other meaning of responsibility is you had the ability to respond and you do. You're constantly responding to the consequences of your responding. And too much responsibility means that you're not being kind to your responsibility. You're taking what's not given. You didn't make the whole universe all by yourself, but it didn't get made without you either, because the whole universe is your true body. But that doesn't mean you're the creator of the whole thing. So taking too much responsibility is not being ethical in the sense that you're taking what's not given. It wasn't all given to you. You don't get to have it all yourself. You've got to share it with us. So if you take too much, that's not ethically skillful.

[30:08]

Or if you take too little, how do we learn to take the right amount? Well, like, just take what's given. How do you figure out what's given? Well, just... Pay attention to what appears. That doesn't mean that that's what's given. That just means that's what you see is given. And you can practice kindness to that. To not take care of that, you may say, oh, that's a matter of judgment. But to respect taking care of it is not a matter of judgment. It's a matter that it's your nature that you do. You do. Because that's the kind of being you are. You are a moral being. And if you're And there's a particular type of moral being which is the moral being who wishes to help all beings, so that's your ethical responsibility. And to respect that, and to respect that, and to respect that in the midst of whatever's appearing, all the judgments of your mind that are appearing about how you're doing to That's your freedom.

[31:10]

And you can do that no matter how bad you are, how good you are. In other words, you can do that however you judge yourself or judge others. You can learn to respect that. And then it isn't that it doesn't matter what your judgments are, it's that you're free no matter what your judgments are. I do not necessarily feel that I need to be suffering forever because I have a mind that judges. I don't see that that's necessary. I don't have to go to hell forever. If I go to hell, in hell I can respect my moral responsibility and then there's freedom in hell. And then everybody else in hell can learn that too and become free. But you have to respect ethical responsibility in order to realize freedom. But does that mean everybody gets out of hell and hell disappears instantly?

[32:13]

Not necessarily. But it means that everybody's free at that moment, wherever they are. Which again, if that's not the way we are, we're not going to be able to be that way. But part of the way we are is also that we are imaginative beings and we imagine things and we take our imagination of things to be the way that's part of... We're free to do that too. And we're going to keep being free to do that and we should probably continue to do that if we want to help all beings because they're doing it and we should do it with them and show them how to do it and be free at the same time. So I'm imagining right along, but I'm not getting distracted in the midst of this imagination process from moral responsibility. What's that again? Oh, to live for the welfare of all beings. And how do you do that? Well, be kind to whatever the imagination is. And that attention to be kind to whatever imagination is, that's the moral responsibility.

[33:23]

And respecting that is freedom. But that's not something you can know. But you realize that when you act that way, when you act that way, at that moment there's no other freedom than that. That's it. And you don't look for some other freedom than that. That's the freedom. But you can't see it or grasp it. Like love. It's like love. It's love which has these ethical characters. Mm hmm.

[34:32]

Please come again. I'm not sure anymore what I want to ask. She's not sure anymore what she wants to ask. Because you were talking about wisdom and you were saying that Buddhas are wisdom. We deserve wisdom and compassion. Right, and we all have our own wisdom, our internal wisdom. And then you said, taking notes. Almost like I felt like, oh, I shouldn't be taking notes. But if I don't take notes, everything that went by on your wisdom would be lost in a way, unless I remember it. unless something strikes me very strongly, maybe tomorrow, and I need that sentence and that resting. I'm just suggesting to you that when you see somebody taking notes, who might be so-called you, that you be kind to that note-taker and that note-taking.

[36:16]

Be generous to that note-taking. And if that person's trying to hold on to something, Be generous to the person who's trying to hold on to something that she heard. That's what's important is to be generous towards this attempting to get a hold of something. So then there's not trying to get a hold of something growing out of trying to get a hold of something. And that not trying to get a hold of something is necessary for wisdom. So where do you find the balance between learning the teaching... Where do you find the balance between learning the teachings and... And being, I don't know, like, so that's why I'm saying, you know, sometimes I'm like, I thought I heard something with the previous question with the lady that she was asking, between knowing...

[37:25]

To knowing and realizing? Yes. And then, so, okay, if I'm living in the present, I'm driving, and I'm remembering some of your teachings. Yes. So, if I'm not taking notes, maybe I'll learn, I'll remember something, but it's not going to be what you were teaching, because I didn't take correct notes. Maybe. Maybe. Right. But what I'm teaching is not the correct notes that you write down. Right. What I'm teaching is for you to do the practice. But it's okay for you to write down, take a note on what I said, but I didn't... And I could even tell you, I'm teaching you, please take notes, I could say that to you, okay? But what I'm teaching you when I say to take notes is not that you should take notes, although it's okay if you do, what I'm teaching to you is to be free of note-taking and not note-taking.

[38:33]

That's what I'm teaching you. I'm teaching you freedom from taking notes and from not taking notes. So if I say to you, take notes, you can take notes or not. Either way is fine with me. And it's okay with me also if you don't realize freedom from what I just said. I can accept that. But I'll keep trying to set you free from what I just said by talking more. Yeah. So if you hear something and you think it's helpful, then I think it's really good to say thank you. when you hear something helpful, and then if you think, I would like to write something down, well, I would say, if possible, write it down as a gift. Say, I'm going to write this down for all living beings. I'm going to write this down to help all sentient beings. Write this down. I'm not writing this down to hold on to this interesting thing he said.

[39:35]

I'm writing this down as a gift to all beings. I'm not writing this down to teach it to someone. to teach it to someone. Now, if I write it, if I think, well, that was really good, I don't want to forget that, so I want to hold on to it, and I'll write it down, and I have to be able to keep it, that's okay, too, because then you can practice generosity towards that, that greediness that wants to get a hold of the teachings so you can be an excellent student of the teachings. That's okay. That's a perfectly good thing to be kind to. So, if possible, always practice generosity first. But if you notice... And one of the main things to practice generosity towards is greediness. So if you notice some greed in yourself for trying to get a hold of some excellent teaching or some precious, helpful thing in the world, if you notice that thing, then bring compassion to that. So it's okay to take notes. It's best to take notes as a gift, but if you take notes to get...

[40:37]

then practice compassion towards the attempt to get, because getting is normal for living beings. They're basically trying to get stuff. So as a teaching, be kind to the people who are trying to get stuff, and this will liberate beings from trying to get stuff and convert them into people who are trying to give stuff. And even to beings who are giving so much that they don't even think they're doing it, all there is is giving. And the people who learn to give in this way are people who listen to the teaching a lot. And if you listen to teaching a lot, you see lots of opportunities to notice that you're trying to get the teachings. Listening doesn't mean get. It means listen. Learning the teaching doesn't mean try to get. It means to learn. But if you try to learn something, like Spanish, you may notice that at some point you're trying to get it rather than just listen. And rather than just speak, you're trying to, like, You're speaking and trying to get Spanish.

[41:40]

Well, okay, then you see there's my human mind trying to get something out of Spanish or trying to get something out of taking a walk or trying to get something out of lunch. Okay, so then let's be kind to that without trying to get something from being kind. And if you keep listening to that teaching over and over, you notice more and more, I'm trying to get something. If you notice you're trying to get something enough times, you will get over it. And you will become a person who practices the teaching of giving her life rather than trying to get her life. And when she gives her life, she will get life. And she'll get life in its immediacy, in its enlightened reality. But if she tries to get life, she'll keep getting this thing that you can get.

[42:41]

You can only get your imagination of your life. Just to alleviate the suffering. What? Really. You just want to alleviate suffering. Yeah, when you do it. Yeah, you want to alleviate suffering, right. And so we're saying, and this is a mistake. To try to lead to suffering by trying to get something, that's what people think. They're suffering because they try to get something, they suffer. Try to understand it better. Trying to understand it. And so if you want to understand it better, then it's good to try to understand without trying to get anything while you try to understand. Try to understand by listening as an act of generosity rather than listening to try to get something. If you want to relieve suffering, if you want to perpetuate suffering, then try to get teachings to free suffering. Don't take what's not given. And if it's given to you, then you don't have to try to get it.

[43:43]

But if we think we're not going to get it, then we may think, well, I have to take it. And that's the usual way. And that perpetuates suffering. But if you say, oh, there's that tendency to try to get something because I don't think it's going to be given, so right now I'm going to be generous towards that tendency to try to get something to relieve suffering. I'm going to be kind to that. I'm not going to try to get rid of it, be a different person, and I'm not going to try to... I'm going to go along with this person who's trying to get some relief of suffering. I'm going to let her try to get some relief of suffering. I'm going to totally let her try to get some relief of suffering. But I'm not trying to get relief of suffering. I'm just being joyfully generous towards this person who's trying to get relief of suffering. And that doesn't get relief of suffering. That is the relief of suffering. That's the difference between knowing and realizing I respect the practice, which is generosity, rather than the human tendency of taking something that's not given.

[44:46]

But if I see myself taking something that's not given, then I practice compassion towards my thieving, grasping. And if I practice compassion towards my grasping, I will become free of grasping. But I have to learn that, and the way I learn it partly is by noticing I'm not doing it. And I respect being kind to myself, be kind to my clinging. And if you hear me say that, and you hear me say that, and you hear me say that, you'll learn it, and you don't have to hold on to it, and you'll practice it. Right. So that's why I said it over so many times, and now you don't have to hold on to it anymore. You can let go of it and see what happens. And then if you totally forget it, contact me and I'll remind you. But if you let go of it, you actually are doing what I'm saying. Let go of all the good teachings you heard today. Let go, and that shows you understood them. I understood them.

[45:50]

Yeah, so now let go of them. You don't need them anymore. You've got them. They're you. You are it. Uh-oh. It's time to stop. Please come and stop me.

[46:05]

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