Is this light shining in anyone's face? Yes. OK. You can leave. How about now? Huh? It's better? All right. Well, tonight's class. is on teacher-student relationships and a little bit about lineage. They're such closely related subjects for us that I will touch on lineage a little bit, but so will Raoul when he gives his class, I guess next week, I hope next week. And I think he'll go into lineage in more detail than I will, but I'll touch on it a little bit.

[01:05]

And my plan, my plan for tonight is to talk for maybe half an hour, maybe 40 minutes, well, and then for us to have a discussion. in this area, because two kinds of discussions, a discussion where we break into small groups and each person gets a chance to talk, and then a discussion among all of us. This is heroic, isn't it? I'm kind of proud of myself to think that could actually happen here, that I could think of it. So we'll give that a try. I think we will. That's my plan. So teacher-student relationship.

[02:07]

This is such an interesting topic. Of course, it's not just one topic, but it has so many aspects. And there's a lot of juice in it. I mean, potentially a lot of juice in it, which is one reason I don't want to talk about it so much as for us to be able to discuss this together, because everyone has some experience of a teacher and of being a student, possibly of both, and there's probably a lot to share here. to enliven our discussion. So, I'm not going to try to lecture to you, really, on this subject. I'm just going to try to touch some major points as I see them, and realizing that I'm not exhausting any one of them. But here are some major subheadings that I will try to touch.

[03:19]

One is that teacher-student relationships and lineage are, among other things, embedded in doctrine. That is, particularly in Zen practice, though certainly in other Buddhist lineages as well, the teacher-student relationship is very important. And it is not only important as a kind of facilitative device or a you know, a means to an end, but the teacher-student relationship in many ways is the truth itself, or it is dharma. It's not just how we get to experience dharma, though it is that as well. So I'll touch on doctrine a little bit, and one doctrine that you are very familiar with, any Buddhist practitioner who's been to probably, you know, one ceremony, is taking refuge.

[04:31]

So the teacher is a significant part of refuge-taking. And then there's sort of looking at teacher-student relationships and lineage from a historical standpoint. That is to say, from a sort of postmodern, objective historical standpoint. And I won't say much about that, except probably just to state a few caveats. Teacher-student relationships in our contemporary context raise issues of ethics, right conduct. This is a very important aspect of this relationship and one that I want to at least touch on.

[05:35]

I want to also point out some of the many records and stories about student-teacher relationships, just by way of mentioning a few sources, so if you're interested in reading more about this. you know, experiencing some of the fine texture in this area, you can go look at these stories. Some of you know them very well and very deeply. And for some of you, this is maybe new material. And finally, there are just the broad areas of practice which are touched on and encompassed by teacher and student. There's hardly any aspect of our practice, our daily practice, either formal or everyday practice, which isn't touched by this key relationship between student and teacher.

[06:44]

So the point with which you're all most familiar, I think, as a departure point, is the notion of the Buddha as a refuge. So this is, you know, really fundamental Buddhism when we're talking about refuge in the three treasures, in the teacher, the Buddha, the Dharma, the teaching, and in the community of practitioners. So these are basic refuges we take, and some would say this is kind of an acid test for a Buddhist, you know, if you want to get that label, you take refuge in the three treasures and you're on your way. So typically, the first refuge is Buddha, and Buddha is the head teacher, right?

[07:54]

I mean, he's the guy who uncovered this important dharma in our historical And so he's the teacher we tend to look to as the original teacher. And then following from the Buddha is this long lineage of teachers, and then finally we have our own teacher, teacher or teachers. And in some sense, these people are objects of refuge as well. In the lineage, the lineage which we observe or recognize or refer to in our practice, it's a lineage, one-to-one set of relationships among

[08:58]

most of them people, the ones we know anyway, but part of the notion of a lineage of teachers is that it's actually beginningless. even though Shakyamuni Buddha is the primordial teacher. Well, no, he's the actual teacher for our time. Prior to that, there were the seven Buddhas before Buddha, right? We chant that. So these are sort of primordial Buddhas. But the seven means, well, it means no beginning. And then we have Buddha Shakyamuni, the teacher that we recognized 2,500 years ago. uh... and then uh... more or less specific lineage of teachers uh... following from him maha kashapa uh... ananda and so on and we when we have our ceremonies uh... uh... or uh... twice a week we uh... chant all the people uh... at least in the middle portion of the lineage we don't carry it out to uh... as far as Suzuki Roshi but

[10:14]

or Sojan, but we chant the middle chunk of people who constitute our lineage. Twenty-eight Indian ancestors, the twenty-eighth being Bodhidharma, who's also the first Chinese patriarch. Then 15 teachers who are Chinese, starting with Bodhidharma's student, Huike, and down to Dogen. And then we have a lineage of teachers in Japan, down to Suzuki Roshi, and then things jump over here to America. So this is the shape of the lineage.

[11:16]

And around here, when you are ordained, either as a lay person or a priest, you get a chart. And I can't remember the name of it. Alan, what is it? Yeah, Kechi Miyaku. So this is a... I meant to bring mine, but I forgot. If you unroll it, it's this wonderful long chart that you can put on the wall, kind of a flowchart. And down here is Kankai Muji. And up here is... I'm mine. And up here is Shakyamuni. And there's a bloodline running down there. goes around a few corners, and then it comes back up to Shakyamuni. So it's a lineage, but it's not a straight line. It's actually a circle. So we mention or refer to this lineage in many of our

[12:18]

Well, we don't have that many ceremonies, so several of our ceremonies, which is a high proportion of them, the Bodhisattva ceremony, our meal chant, and of course the ordination ceremony. In Zen, We tend to recognize two streams of teaching, you could say. I mean, this is speaking loosely, but in order to make a point. Two streams. One is a kind of, first it was an oral and then a written scriptural stream. of writings, first the Buddha's or ostensibly the Buddha's speeches or essays or, well, he didn't write, but spoken discourses, and then written material which more or less parallels the lineage.

[13:31]

people writing lectures, writing stories or recording stories of interactions between people. So this is kind of a written stream of Dharma. But in Zen, we emphasize another stream as well, which we refer to as mind-to-mind transmission of teaching, or a more of a strictly oral lineage, although the stories from this oral lineage have been recorded, written down as well, so actually you can, the writing is no longer a strict distinction. and these two streams of dharma intertwine. and this matter of how scriptural learning and study and practice and the mind-to-mind transmission, Buddha-to-Buddha, is a subject of interest in Zen, which has been treated in different ways and was treated by Ru Jing, Dogen's teacher.

[14:51]

and Dogen himself. They were very concerned about this relationship between scripture and mind-to-mind, face-to-face, knee-to-knee transmission. one way of expressing the relationship between this scriptural stream of teaching and the oral mind-to-mind transmission was expressed in a dialogue, which I believe I have here. between Dogen and his Chinese master, Rujing.

[15:55]

And this itself is the first example I'm going to give you of a story about a teacher and his student. So Dogen records that on the second day of the seventh month of the first year of the Baoxing era, which was 1225 in our calendar, I entered the abbot's room and asked. Nowadays in many places they talk about transmission outside the teaching or outside the scripture. They call this the essence of Bodhidharma's coming from India. How do you understand it? Nice kind of question for your teacher. Rujing said, the great road of Buddha ancestors is not concerned with inside or outside. The reason they call it transmission outside the teaching is this. Although Kshapa Matanga and others had transmitted the teaching to China previously, before Bodhidharma's arrival, there was a transmission of teaching to China.

[17:06]

In coming here from India, Bodhidharma brought the teaching to life and showed the craft of the way. This is why they call it transmission outside the teaching. But there are two Buddha dharmas. Before Bodhidharma arrived in China, there were practices but no master to enliven them. After Bodhidharma came to China, it was as if an aimless people acquired a strong king who brought the land, people, and property of the kingdom into order. So this is Dogen telling us what his teacher told him, and therefore what we should take as doctrine. Previous to this, there was a lot of talk, and there's been a lot of talk since, in Zen circles about a special transmission outside the scripture

[18:14]

directly appreciating mind. So, Dogen is not, or Ruggine is not exactly rejecting this notion that there's a transmission outside of scripture, but he's saying there's no inside and no outside. These are, we could say, they're intertwined. Here's a story from one of the kinds of collections that are around, collections of stories between teachers and their students, which tell us something about teacher-student relationships, and specifically history, at least the traditional or mythical history of Zen practice and thought.

[19:17]

This comes from the Denko Roku, which is a collection of stories which follows the Dogen's lineage. So this happens to be very early in the lineage in our era. This is the story of Ananda, who's the second patriarch after Shakyamuni, and his relationship with his teacher, Mahakasyapa. Here's a case, it's set up as a case, and many of you know these stories, but this is illustrative, and for those of you who don't, this is meant as an introduction, not an exhaustive analysis of this case. But this is the case. The case is, the second patriarch was the Venerable Ananda.

[20:19]

He asked the Venerable Kashapa, Elder Dharma brother, did the world-honored one transmit anything else to you besides the gold brocade robe?" Kshapa called, Ananda. Ananda replied. Kshapa said, knock down the flagpole in front of the gate. Ananda was greatly awakened. So this is just a direct, unembroidered account of an interaction, an important interaction, between a teacher, the first patriarch, and his student, the second patriarch. Embedded in the case and in the discussion which comes afterwards, much of the discussion is by Kazan, one of Dogen's successors, several things are pointed out about Ananda.

[21:25]

He says that Ananda was foremost among those who had heard the teachings of the Buddha. This is because Ananda, who happened to be the Buddha's cousin, was always present when the Buddha gave talks, or he had a deal with the Buddha that if he wasn't present, the Buddha would tell him what the talk was verbatim, so that he had it all up here, because none of this was written down. So Ananda had, you know, extraordinary recall ability. He was also a very good-looking guy, obviously smart in many ways, impressive. How do you know he was good-looking? At CICEL. CICEL and the written record, and why would I doubt the written record? CICEL was one of the students. However, he still did not transmit the true Dharma. See, even though he had heard all the Buddha's teachings, all the scriptural teaching, in other words, he's got it right up here.

[22:34]

It's not that he just kind of has read it four times like Dogen or something. He's got it all in his body. But he didn't transmit the true Dharma. He didn't really get it. He couldn't clarify the mind ground. So, this is expressing the one side, which is that knowing the scriptural literature, knowing it, even having it memorized, is not tantamount to great awakening. Then Kaizan says, though Kashyapa called Ananda, he was not calling Ananda, and the response was not an answer. So we're hearing something now about the meaning of the case. As for the matter of knocking down the flagpole, in India, when the Buddhist disciples and non-Buddhists had a debate, both sides put up a flag.

[23:35]

When one side was defeated in the debate, their flag was taken down. Very military kind of situation. Defeat was indicated without sounding drums and bells and so on. In the present story also, it is as if Kshapa and Ananda had lined up for debate and set up their flags. If Ananda wins, Kshapa should roll up his flag. One comes forth, the other disappears. However, this is not the case in the present story. If Kshapa and Ananda are flagpoles, the principle is not revealed. When a flagpole is knocked down, a flagpole will be revealed. So, something going on here, which is not quite on the surface, you see. And I'm not going to try to spell out even my understanding of it tonight, but really to indicate something of the flavor of this relationship between these two men and the way it's reflected in a record, which you can go pick up in the library, if it isn't already on your shelf, and read.

[24:49]

When Kshapa instructed him to knock down the flagpole, Ananda was greatly awakened because master and disciple had become one in the way. After this great awakening, Kshapa was also knocked down and mountains and rivers were also demolished. As a result, the Buddha's robe spontaneously came down over Ananda's head. And there you have it. Kezan says, with regard to this present story, Ananda thought that the transmission of the gold cloth robe to Kshapa by Buddha meant that outside of being a disciple of the Buddha,

[25:57]

symbolized by the robe, there was nothing else to be transmitted beyond the scriptural teaching. However, after following Kshapa, which Ananda did, because after the Buddha died, Ananda became Kshapa's student for 20 years. After following Kshapa and taking care of him so intimately, he thought that something was communicated between master and disciple. Kshapa, knowing that the time was ripe, called Ananda. And like an echo following a sound, Ananda responded. It was like a spark flying from a piece of flint. Teachers are thought of in many different ways and referred to in many different ways in Buddhist and non-Buddhist literature.

[27:04]

Teachers are variously thought of as models, models for deportment and conduct, and practice as guides, people who help us know what to do, as protectors, protecting us from our own foolishness and wayward minds and from the temptations of the worldly life around us. Teachers are thought of themselves as devotional objects. This may not be so It's obvious in our practice, but still the seeds of it are there. Sometimes a teacher is called master, sometimes guru. In the oldest layer of Buddhist teaching, teachers were called spiritual friends.

[28:08]

In Sufism, Rumi will refer to his teacher as the friend, the beloved, the sheikh. The relationships that are possible between teachers and students are enormously varied. If we just look at our own literature in Zen, we can see quite a variety of relationships. If we look into Buddhism more widely, we see the same variability reflected, and also outside Buddhist practice as well. Tibetan practice, the teacher is regarded as one of the causes of Buddhahood.

[29:31]

The primary cause of Buddhahood is Buddha nature. That is, the fundamental nature of each being, sentient and non-sentient, is the primary cause of attaining Buddhahood. The working basis of attaining Buddhahood is the precious human life, that is, having been born as a human being with certain opportunities such as having all your faculties having a certain kind of intelligence, living in a place in which Buddhadharma is available, where you can be with students and teachers, not being in a border country where there's war going on all the time, and no opportunity to practice, having the material requisites and so on.

[30:38]

This is the precious human life which is rare. So this is the working basis of Buddhahood, and the contributory cause is the spiritual master. So we have these conditions and causes operating to permit Buddhahood, and the spiritual master, the teacher, fits in that that system. Tilopa, who's a Tibetan Kagyu teacher, says, the ignorant may know that sesame oil, the essence, exists in the sesame seed, but because they do not know how, they cannot extract the oil. So also does innate fundamental wisdom abide in the heart of all migrators.

[31:44]

But unless it is pointed out by the guru, it cannot be realized. By pounding the seeds and clearing away the husks, one can extract the essence, the sesame oil. Similarly, when it is shown by the lama, the meaning of suchness is so illuminated that one can enter into it. Here's a poem from Rumi about teacher and student. It goes like this. A chickpea leaps almost over the rim of the pot where it's being boiled.

[32:47]

Why are you doing this to me? The cook knocks him down again with a ladle. Don't you try to jump out. You think I'm torturing you. I'm giving you flavor. So you can mix with spices and rice and be the lovely vitality of a human being. Remember when you drank rain in the garden? That was for this. Grace first, sexual pleasure, then a boiling new life begins. And the friend has something good to eat. Eventually, the chickpea will say to the cook, boil me some more. Hit me with a skimming spoon. I can't do this by myself. I'm like an elephant that dreams of gardens back in Hindustan and doesn't pay attention to his driver. You're my cook, my driver, my way into existence.

[33:54]

I love your cooking. The cook says, I was once like you, fresh from the ground. Then I boiled in time and boiled in the body, two fierce boilings. My animal soul grew powerful. I controlled it with practices and boiled some more and boiled once beyond that and became your teacher. Thanks to the work of some contemporary Zen practitioners, David Chadwick in particular, and the people who cooperated with him in his study of Suzuki Roshi's life, we have a record

[35:02]

wraps up a partial record, a subjective one, but a wonderful, charming record of Suzuki Roshi's early life. And I'll just read a passage or two and then go on. This is from Crooked Cucumber. David describes Suzuki Roshi's early experience with Soan Roshi, his fierce, exacting Japanese teacher. He had another teacher who was less fearsome, perhaps less exacting, but this is the one that seems to have made the strongest impression on Suzuki Roshi. So after an initial honeymoon with Soan, Roshi, David says, Soan wanted more from Shunryu than puppy love.

[36:14]

He wanted him to listen to the intent of his teaching, get beyond his limiting idealism, meet him on the Dharma teaching ground. So on told a story about the Chinese ancestor Yakusan, who emphasized to his disciples that he was not a philosopher or a scholar, but a teacher of Zen. Do not acknowledge me, he kept saying to his disciples. His point was the opposite of what he was saying. Acknowledge me. His disciples didn't accept him or relate to him as a Zen teacher. but he always expected them to be something else. But they always expected him to be something else, to fulfill some other role. It's an interesting observation, isn't it, about Yakuza, made by Soan Roshi to Suzuki Roshi, who eventually got this story somehow to David.

[37:19]

wanting to be seen as a Zen teacher and not a whole host of other things that the students want him to be. There's something in this for us, perhaps. San did not have any particular teaching or system, and his students were often in the dark about what they should be doing or how they should be doing it. This may be recognizable to some of you as well. Suzuki said that Soan was usually silent, so much so that his disciples had to learn most things on their own, just watching what he did. But they weren't necessarily supposed to be doing exactly what he did, so they'd get nervous and feel lost. Suzuki said they actually developed a liking for the sound of Soan's scolding voice, because then they knew what to do. How to clean a pond with concentration and selflessness was one thing, but so on was also mute when it came to more complicated subjects, such as how to conduct a memorial service.

[38:33]

The boys often, his students, Shinryu and his fellow boy students, would go out with Soen to perform services in the homes of lay supporters. And right in the middle of service and so on, Roshi would look at Shunryu, Suzuki Roshi, and say, he was hitting a bell, Shunryu was, and he would suddenly growl, what are you doing? Then he'd take the striker out of Shunryu's hand and show him how it was done. It was embarrassing. But at least in that way, he'd been shown something. Well, he'd been shown something. This is interesting, isn't it? How shamed we might feel if Mel came over and took the striker out of your hand and showed you how to do it.

[39:39]

And yet, wouldn't that be interesting? I mean, we do this day after day, right? And we never get it right. We never always get it right, so there's always a time when he could come over and take the striker out of your hand, and then just show you how to do it, and you just keep right on going. Even if it was your last ceremony. Here's another story. This is again about Ruijing and Dogen. Dogen asked, I heard your verse on the windmill. The first line says, the entire body is a mouth hanging in emptiness.

[40:42]

And the third line says, joining the whole universe is chiming out prajna, wisdom. What is this emptiness? Is it just the lack of form? People who doubt the way say this, and nowadays even students of the way do not understand Buddhadharma. Dogen seems to be giving a little material to Rujing to work with, doesn't he? They regard the spaciousness of the blue sky as emptiness. This is regrettable. Then Ruijin responds, �Emptiness is no other than prajna and several other things.� And then Dogen says, �I said your verse on the wind bell is supreme. Even if they had numberless eons, other elders would never be able to compose a verse like this.� Ruijin. my teacher. Brother monks should venerate it.

[41:45]

Although I have come from a remote land and am not well versed in dharma, I have read collections of Zen masters' teachings, and so on and so forth, as well as the recorded sayings of various masters, and I have not yet seen anything like your wind bell verse. It is my good fortune to have seen it. I wet my robe with tears of joy and bow day and night in appreciation of its straightforwardness and its beautiful rhythm. Rujing was about to ride off in a sedan chair. He smiled and said, your words are deep and your spirit is outstanding. I composed this verse when I was at Qingliang Monastery. At the time, many people praised it, but none of them spoke as you have done. I acknowledge that you have a sharp Dharma eye. When you compose a verse, you should do it in the same manner." Isn't that sweet? Praise is often a good idea, apparently.

[42:51]

Okay. So many stories. One more story. This is a story about Milarepa and his student Gampopa. These are folks in the Tibetan Kagyu lineage. So Milarepa, you probably all have heard of, a famous Tibetan singing yogi, poet. And this is one of those kinds of relationships which is foretold in the history of Buddhism, and Milarepa is teaching his students, and Gampopa is on his way to him, and he's staying at a nearby village, and Milarepa smiles, and the student is saying, �Oh, has somebody just become enlightened?�

[43:58]

And then he says, no. And somebody says, well, you mean somebody doesn't get the point? He says, no. And then he says, this great student is coming. Can you imagine how they felt when he said that? This great student is coming. Anyway, so then Milarepa and Gampopa have this long storied relationship in which Milarepa teaches Gampopa everything, you know, that he knows. you know, formal offering, kind of preparing the way for this marvelous teaching. Milarepa said, no, there's no need for a mandala offering, but do not waste this instruction. Milarepa then turned and raised the back of his clothes and showed his buttocks, which were full of calluses.

[45:00]

In all the pith instructions, there is none more profound than meditation practice. I meditated persistently until my buttocks became like this, and I achieved great qualities. So you also should practice meditation with perseverance." This made a deep impression on Ganpapa's mind. And then, as the lama foretold, he went to central Tibet. We can look at the existence of lineage with sympathetic and receptive eyes.

[46:20]

and try to understand it at many levels. And we can also look at it in sort of what we think of as objective scientific scrutiny. And when we do this, of course, we see or think we see that lineage can reflect efforts of various schools to legitimize themselves. big surprise, to enhance the credibility of the school, to show how your teacher relates to this teacher, to this teacher, and so on, back to Shakyamuni. And this is a way of perhaps promoting one's own brand of Buddhism or religious practice. It's also a way of strengthening the sense of the community itself. These are our, you know, this is like the baseball card collection of our

[47:28]

our community, our lineage. So you go home, read these cards, you memorize the stats on each guy or each woman, and it really builds spirit. So we know that lineage has a role in that way as modern people. We know that We also know that this is, in a sense, a way of exercising control over people. That is, if I'm the teacher, and I had this teacher before me, and he had his teacher before him, I know what I'm up to, and I have some authority in your eyes. If you're sympathetic to this kind of approach, it tends to be, of course, top-down, old to young, and well, basically male to male. Or it's male to female.

[48:32]

I'm talking about top, bottom. It's not the other way around. So it has these characteristics. As we Westerners look at this tradition we've imported, it was brought to us Our culture, of course, is comparatively egalitarian and democratic and individualistic. So our interaction with the notion of lineage and with the details of it is complicated. We have very complicated feelings about authority and hierarchy. Our culture is also materialistic and moralistic, and we could say liberal or libertine. So we also relate to the notion of lineage and authority in very special ways around issues of conduct and ethics.

[49:40]

And this has raised enormously interesting and complicated and sometimes painful issues in America, I think more America than Europe even, regarding relationships between men and women, men teachers and women students, and occasionally the reverse. It has produced scandals. where people have not behaved according to what some might consider the correct rules for conduct, particularly sexual conduct, and things get very heated. There are a lot of ways for teachers and students to get into big trouble, and a few have.

[50:44]

What is a Buddhist teacher not? I'll just say a few things that I think a Buddhist teacher is not. I think a Buddhist teacher is not a friend, as in buddy. A teacher is not a parent substitute. no matter how much we might want one. A Buddhist teacher is not a lover or a love interest. A Buddhist teacher is not a career counselor, not a psychotherapist, and not a matchmaker. What is a Buddhist teacher? I'm talking about our context now.

[52:14]

What can we expect from a Buddhist teacher? What can we hope for? What can we give to a teacher? What I would like to do is pose a few questions to you and suggest that you either work with those questions or some other questions that you decide are better questions. I'm going to suggest that we break down into groups of three and that we spend five minutes each speaking in this group of three, without cross-talk.

[53:19]

Just one person speaks, another person speaks, then the other person speaks. Then maybe a minute or two of cross-talk, and then we'll get back together as a group and have a discussion, brief discussion. Here are some of the questions that you might consider in your group of three. What do I really want from my teacher? What do I really want from my teacher? This is a, you know, this is a I question. This is about you and your teacher. If you don't have a teacher, what would you like from a teacher you don't have?

[54:23]

Another question would be, what's your best experience with a teacher? What's the best experience you ever had in your life with a teacher? And the third question is, which you may or may not want to talk about, is what's your worst experience with a teacher? Okay? It's three kinds of questions. What do I want? from a teacher, what's the best experience I've had with a teacher, or even what's the worst experience. All right? So, let's start now. David, you mean a Buddhist teacher or, or generally? If you have a Buddhist teacher, I mean a Buddhist teacher. If not, you could talk about another kind of teacher. All right? Let's start now. So you, you have to do this yourselves.

[55:29]

Pick your threesome. So now my question to you is, what did you hear in your group? What did you hear someone else say that you'd be willing to put your hand in the air now and say it? Peter? Well, what they said, pretty much. Well, I don't know. I mean, one of the persons said that they felt jealous when their teacher was with other people. And it was like, I guess it's a sentiment of like, oh, I want them all to myself and nobody else.

[56:34]

You know, it's kind of like an only child kind of thing, I guess. Uh-huh. OK, thanks. What else did you hear? Yes. There's enough imperfection to go around. I'll buy that. Yes. connect with the teacher.

[58:01]

We want continuity and being known and heard. Yeah. Okay, thank you. I had heard of fear that a teacher would injure us in the same way we had been injured before by others and hope that it would be different. Oh, I don't mind.

[59:48]

Interesting. So you're asking me what my experience is. As a teacher, coming from the point of view as a teacher, what do you look for in a teacher-student, student-teacher relationship? Well, I would say briefly that For me, it hasn't come to be exactly a singular event. In other words, it's not shopping for a teacher, or it's not a single relationship that I look at. Mel is my main teacher, Sogen Roshi is my main teacher, and he is also my priest ordination teacher, and I look to him The relationship I have with him, I think I would say, is the primary one, but one of the things that has dawned on me over the years of my relationship with him is that he can't be all the things I may want from a teacher.

[61:14]

And that it's, I mean, I may want him to be more things than he can be, but it's fraught with disappointment. But what I meant was, what do you look for in a teacher-student relationship with you being the teacher? Not Mel, I'm not talking Mel, I'm talking you're the teacher, with a student of yours. Oh, I see. Because you have students. You've given lay ordination to two recently. Yes. Well, what I find in students, I don't exactly go looking for that either, because, you know, students just come. And they say, I want to practice with you. And I say, OK. And the basis of that is usually a sincere wish to practice with somebody. You know, and somehow, you know, I don't feel like I'm the one for the student.

[62:18]

I just happened to be the one who was there when the desire to practice with somebody arose, and the student anyway feels that I'm okay to work with. And what I expect from a student is honesty and effort, sincerity, and I don't have any complaints. I mean, my students, my students, the students I practice with, myself in the role of guide or teacher or friend, in that sense, it's a small group of students that I feel very congenial with them. We have a good practice together. I don't know if that answers your question exactly, but... Not exactly, but I don't want to monopolize it. We only have a few minutes left. Yeah, okay.

[63:20]

Howard? and have and want to continue to cultivate as a teacher that you think are essential. Yes. Thank you for the opportunity to answer your question. But I would like to hear from others addressing that same kind of question. What do they want from a from a teacher, so it doesn't become more recollection or lecture. Thank you. Please. Someone.

[64:26]

Anne. You know, all three of us, again, I don't like to speak for others, but it does seem that all three of us appreciate being seen as we really are on a number of different levels, and supported and affirmed in what is, the word I used was, what was not deluded in having deluded practice interrupted, but that part was more mine. But the, you know, all three of us really feel, experience being seen as we truly are by the teacher. Thanks. Yes, Marty. One thing that I heard was that we don't want a teacher who's going to sort of answer our

[65:27]

Thanks. Welcome. One person in the group I was with said that she wanted to which maybe seems, speaking about it now, it seems kind of obvious and you just spoke about it, but actually when she said it, it really struck me. And I think there's an attitude there of wanting a teacher who will not indulge our moment-to-moment desires, Is there anyone else who would like to speak? Please. I would like to say what I said in the group, what I was looking for.

[67:12]

Looking for a coach as a teacher. To coach me to bring forth what I have within to help me wake it up rather than imposing upon me a teacher's or a teaching's dogma. A teaching what? A teacher or a teaching's dogma. Oh, uh-huh. So that I can be authentically all of the beingness that I have the potential to be. And so a coach is a word that I could relate to Okay, thanks. Anyone else? I'll read you a poem, then we can go home.

[68:27]

Um... This is Rumi. Yesterday at dawn, my friend said, how long will this unconsciousness go on? You fill yourself with the sharp pain of love rather than its fulfillment. I said, but I can't get to you. You are the whole dark night and I am a single candle. My life is upside down because of you. The friend replied, I am your deepest being. Quit talking about wanting me. I said, then what is this restlessness? The friend said, does a drop stay still in the ocean? Move with the entirety. and with the tiniest particular.

[69:33]

Be the moisture in an oyster that helps to form one pearl. Well, thank you very much for this discussion and class tonight. I encourage you to meet with Ann Kennedy at your earliest possible convenience and find the books in the library that have these great stories about teachers and students. in them. That's a kind of funny, prosaic way, I don't mean getting together with Ann Kennedy, but I mean about saying, use the library, read the stories in the library. But it is enormously helpful and encouraging to read these crazy stories.

[70:41]

I know some of you do. but maybe a few don't, and don't start reading these stories thinking you'll immediately get the picture. But there is a kind of a texture, a feeling that comes out in some of these stories which is wonderful, and that I've found helps me in my relationship with my teachers and students. And I actually learn from these stories, including sometimes I learn ways of being and interacting that I don't want to embody. But it is wonderful to read these stories. So again, thank you very much. Good night.

[71:36]

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