the San Francisco Zen Center to train in sitting meditation. And I thought that it would be helpful to because I noticed it was difficult for me to do it regularly all by myself in Minnesota. There was no Zen group in Minnesota in those days, and no Zen teachers that I knew of anyway. And I also felt like I needed a teacher to check in with about the practice.

[01:03]

I went to San Francisco. And I did find that sitting with the group really facilitated the practice. And having Suzuki Roshi around was pretty much just what I wanted. So this kind of amazing thing happened as I spent quite a bit of time the last 39 years sitting. I did it when I was in my early 20s and so on. That a young man would spend so much time sitting surprises me when I think about it. When I came here, I was often surprised that I was here.

[02:12]

I was also surprised to find myself holes that I had dug in the ground in the rain on Sunday mornings, or sitting on top of rocks that I was breaking on Wednesday afternoons. rocks as part of my Zen training, but that's what I did up in the river here. And when I first came to Tatsuhara and also city center, I'm not saying there wasn't a Sokoji. I don't remember ever saying in Japanese or English anything about taking refuge in Buddha. We didn't say in the 60s.

[03:22]

I don't think. Maybe was saying it someplace by himself when nobody was looking. But I didn't. Or maybe he said it on Sundays when the Japanese people came to Sokoji. But I don't remember. As a group, anyway, any of us said, I take refuge in Buddha in English or Namukye Butsu. And we didn't talk about the precepts either that I remember. We didn't practice confession and repentance as a group until I was abbot. I did say in ceremony I'd take refuge in Buddha, but I hardly noticed it, actually.

[04:29]

I was getting ordained as a priest, but the precepts were not the main thing. I wanted to be a priest, but I wasn't particularly interested in the precepts. And I take refuge in Buddha was just not an issue for me. I didn't say, oh, I don't want to take refuge in Buddha. I just said it. And last night we this morning we said it. You may have noticed that. You may not have. You probably didn't say it. then center, and I didn't feel I was supposed to get into it.

[05:29]

And we said, you should take refuge in Buddha. And this gradually took over. And now it's kind of like sort of the thing. It's the practice which is done. And I was surprised, maybe 10 years or 15 years ago, He left his dear disciple, to take care of and work on his grandmother mind.

[06:43]

And he said, the next time we meet, I think you will have worked up this grandmother mind thing, and we can finish the dominant transmission process. But they never met again. And Dogen went to, I believe, Kyoto to receive medical attention. And then he was staying in some room in Kyoto that had a pillar in it, probably a temple-built room. And although he was within a month of his death, I guess he could still walk. So he got up and he walked around this pillar. around the pillar, taking refuge in the triple treasure.

[07:49]

I was surprised that that would be a practice he would do at the end. As you know, in Asian countries, that's one of the first practices. a great Zen master would do something a little bit loftier and more advanced than just taking refuge. But now he did this very basic practice. And he also, in one of his unpopular, unpopular in the sense that nobody ever talks about it highly, called Way-Seeking Mind.

[09:02]

He basically says, take refuge in Buddha now. Take refuge in Buddha when you're dying. Take refuge after you're dead. Take refuge in Buddha as you're being born. And then take refuge in Buddha through that life, and so on. Just take refuge in Buddha from now on. I've never heard of Buddhas taking refuge in Buddha. Never heard of it. But they probably do. Because refuge means return and rely on. But then you say, well, Buddhas don't have to return to Buddha, because they never leave.

[10:07]

So Buddhas don't have to take refuge in Buddha. The only beings that have to take refuge in Buddhas are those who maybe wander a little bit away from Buddha for a flash of a second. And then those beings need to go back, return, return to Buddha. But although I never heard of Buddhas taking refuge in Buddha, I've heard of Buddhas hanging out with other Buddhas, having conversations with other Buddhas, communing with other Buddhas. As a matter of fact, they do that all the time. They're always relating to each other and relating to all beings. I haven't heard of them taking refuge.

[11:09]

But I have heard of bodhisattvas taking refuge. And pretty much the more developed bodhisattvas I've heard are taking refuge all the time. They train so long that they're constantly, every moment, with Buddha. They're with Buddha, and they are mindful that Buddha is with them. They train themselves. get to a point where they never forget they're with Buddha. They always are thinking of Buddha. And they're always thinking that Buddha is with them. And not only that, but they're always mindful that they and Buddha are non-dual. So the Buddhas are not only with in their minds, And then, of course, as I said yesterday, everything they do, everything they think, is in the midst of their non-dual relationship with all beings.

[12:24]

Everything they think expresses that. When they think of a dog rolling in the reams, They think that thought about the dog in the midst of the awareness that they are with all the Buddhas in a non-dual communion. I've never heard anything to say that they ever are not in that communion. The advanced ones, what we call the tyro bodhisattvas, the baby bodhisattvas, the newly initiated bodhisattvas, sometimes forget that they're with the Buddhas and the Buddhas are with them and in that relationship. So some of the people here are newly initiated bodhisattvas who sometimes forget.

[13:30]

Perhaps you know some of these people. But if one ever does forget, one can just confess, oh, I forgot. I forgot. And then that confession, and I repent. Now I return to mindfulness of this grandmother mind, mindfulness In this way I take refuge in Buddha. I return to Buddha. I return to Buddha.

[14:38]

being Buddha, because Buddhas are nothing but all sentient beings' activity. They are nothing in addition to that. And of course, sentient beings are also nothing in addition to the activity of all sentient beings. By the way, some sentient beings have bizarre thoughts. Like, I'm something in addition to all sentient beings. I am. That's just the way it is. And I think it's true. That's almost Buddha.

[16:01]

There is a teaching in Mahayana Buddhism, which apparently the ancestor Dogen heard about. And his writings called .. which is the essay or the teachings on receiving and teaching the precepts. And in there he says, there's three of the triple treasure. Single-bodied, single-bodied triple treasure, manifested triple treasure. And the single-body is . So the single-body Buddha is complete, perfect, unsurpassed enlightenment.

[17:14]

That's the single-body treasured Buddha. Perfect enlightenment itself is Buddha. To maintain triple treasure, not manifest triple treasure, is the Buddha manifests, for example, a Shakyamuni Buddha. The Buddha can manifest historical context. So we can have historical Buddhas that come and go. And we have one here on this planet during the last 2,500 years. And then we have the Buddha who realized the same enlightenment, but are still disciples. And then there's the maintained triple treasure, or the maintaining triple treasure of Buddha, which is the edification of celestial

[18:19]

It is the transformation of humans and divine beings. That transformation is another aspect of the Buddha. One can take refuge in enlightenment itself, but also take refuge in the actual process of beings being edified and transformed through . Such a meditation called taking refuge in Buddha, pose in bliss.

[19:27]

It's totally culminated enlightenment. Taking refuge in Buddha is taking refuge in totally culminated enlightenment. Taking refuge in totally culminated enlightenment is totally culminated enlightenment. It's not a separate thing. Now the commentator, some human commentator sitting right nearby, taking refuge in Buddha is totally culminating enlightenment. This commentator who has questions about that is allowed to be here. The commentator is allowed to be here. The commentator who thinks in the Buddha Park. But I'm not saying that taking refuge in unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment is separate from unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment.

[20:45]

I'm saying that they're not separate. I'm saying that they're non-dual. And the person who is thinking that they are dual and that they're dual The person who thinks, how could a beginner who takes refuge in Buddha be not separate from Buddha? The person who thinks that, and I'm separate from Buddha, and I'm more advanced than the beginner, and I'm separate from Buddha, so the beginner must also be separate. That person is also, even though they don't believe it, I'm saying they are not separate from Buddha. Buddha is what they're not separate from. Whatever they're not separate from, that's Buddha. Even though this person not very intelligently thinks that they are separate from what they're not. They actually think that. And they're wrong. But they're still, even no matter how wrong they get, they're still not separate.

[21:50]

I see. When I think that about them, They want to do something a little bit fancier than that, maybe. But anyway, they think they're separate from Buddha. Therefore, taking refuge in Buddha is kind of . And some beginner who takes refuge in Buddha is separate from unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment, they think. They are not separate from Buddha, nor is the person who thinks that they are separate from Buddha. Nobody is. And that practice, traps and snares cannot get the practice of unsurpassing to perfect enlightenment.

[22:54]

Traps and snares cannot get taking refuge in Buddha. However, once the heart of taking refuge is grasped, you're like tigers. If I don't want to and I don't feel like I am, then I probably won't feel like taking refuge in Buddha is worthwhile.

[24:47]

If I don't return to the source of our ,, which is the non-duality of Buddha and sentient beings, if I don't return there and rely on that non-duality, then I probably won't feel like that's probably a real good thing. But I might. I had returned there once in the past and thought, hey, this is where I want to live. And then I forgot. Then I say, oh, I do think it's worthwhile. I just forgot that it's worthwhile. So I'm going to go back. I'm going to return. I'm going to And here we are.

[26:18]

Me and you and Buddha. Are you back? Have you returned to the non-duality of you and the Buddha? Living beings are around in this nonduality of their self and the Buddha.

[27:49]

But their consciousnesses may not be illuminated in this relationship. Buddhas live in this nonduality. But even their consciousnesses don't reach, or nobody's consciousness reaches this nonduality. They live there, but there's no traces of consciousness. However, their consciousnesses are illuminated by this nonduality, because this nonduality is light. The nonduality is a light. It's light. So is illuminated by the nonduality, but the nonduality is not reached by the consciousness. Taking refuge in this Buddha is taking refuge in the light of your own mind.

[29:05]

The light of your mind is the true body of the Buddha, is the body of unsurpassed enlightenment. Straps and snares cannot reach it, but you can enter it. Already there, moving around in it. In the past, people have returned to the Buddha jewel, have taken refuge in it. In the present, people are taking refuge in it. And many people continue in the future to take refuge in the Buddha.

[30:21]

All we need to do is not get distracted and see the light of our mind, not get distracted from taking refuge in Buddha as we walk and talk This could be called a kind of inconspicuous practice, not so noticeable.

[31:41]

If someone is sitting or standing or walking or lying down, and they're returning to Buddha, that they're absorbed in the light of the is something the person could be taken care of and no one would really notice. But I propose that taking care of this does influence the world. And part of is how the world is transformed and edified by this refuge-taking. and transforms others. And all this, I say, should be open to being tested and proved by yourself with others.

[32:51]

And we've proved and tested repeatedly, verified repeatedly, not just today, not just now. Verify it. Check it out. Any other voices today? I'm feeling as though this morning's talk was something of a breakthrough for me.

[35:15]

You're feeling what? Your talk this morning was a breakthrough for me. It was a breakthrough? It was working on being a breakthrough. And I remember yesterday some discussion about full heartedness of what that is and I'm hearing this morning about I'm having a hard time articulating what I'm hearing this morning but I've heard many times in your talks in the past, I've heard you talk about the concept of love. And I'm starting to think that and taking refuge and other like terms essentially amount to giving over to love.

[36:34]

I wonder if you think so, too. I think so, too. Yeah. And again, I think it's good to test the law, see if it can be verified that it's actually law. Caps and snares cannot reach it. And sometimes a test feels like a confirmation. This is the tiger moving in the mountains. Sometimes a test makes us think, hmm, maybe I should look more deeply. Maybe this isn't taking refuge. test it and bring it out and show it to people and invite them to test it.

[37:45]

Test it, test you. So test it by looking at it? Test it by looking at it. Let's see what the response is. And also test it by expressing it and letting people know that what you think you're I love you. Do you feel I love you? Do what? Do you feel like I love you? Do you seem like I love you? Oh yes. Am I treating you in a loving way? Yes. So I should keep checking. And then maybe someday you'll say, That didn't seem like loving. Yesterday, it did seem like loving.

[38:48]

And today, I don't know about that. So I might say, wait. Oh, yeah. I think I know what you mean. Sorry. I lost track of it there for a second. But if you don't express it and tell people that's what you're trying to express and invite their feedback, I don't think it's going to be as fully realized as if you prove it by offering yourself to be tested, or offering your love to be tested. And let people know that that's what you're offering, and that's what you want them to give you feedback on. I think I'm pretty new to that offering. Yeah.

[39:51]

I think you're new at being aware that you're making that offering. And so that's your newness. Thank you. This morning in the Fukunzazengi we chanted, Don't think good or bad. Don't administer pros and cons. And I have an old

[40:53]

deeply ingrained habit pattern of doing that. I think good and bad about the do-ons. I administer pros and cons about the servers and the people around me eating ore-yoki and my fellow staff members. It's just a heartbeat. And I also think well of myself. I think I'm virtuous. I think I'm better than other people. Can you hear? No? Why don't you come closer? Can I bring a chair over here? She did a confession. You missed it. You didn't hear what she said? I heard most of it.

[41:57]

Oh, OK. You want to come closer? No. Did you hear it, Ken? Yes. I can hear it, too. But can I imagine the suggestion? Once I had a secret life. Inside the heart of me Now I shout it from the highest hill Even tell the golden daffodil So, louder. This is good stuff. Get out there. I even thought that about how virtuous it was to come do it. Well, you're right. It was virtuous to come do it. And that's my question.

[42:58]

The deluded mind. I mean, there is virtue. There is goodness. There is competence. There is love and caring. But the deluded mind co-opts it and says, ah, this is me. And then we chant. attain Buddhahood and let go of the attainment. Yes. So how? How can we not let the deluded mind co-opt all that stuff? When the deluded mind is co-opted, it repents it. When it's not co-opted, we're cool. It's not so much about don't let it co-opt, just that if it does, if you confess and repent before the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas like you did, that will melt away the root of this co-opting of virtue.

[44:10]

So when some virtuous activity arises in your body and mind, It's okay to think that that's virtuous. And one kind of co-opting is, that's my virtue. Another kind of co-opting is, that virtue has a self. It's a thing. It's a thing. But the actual virtue, you can never reach it. But you might say, well, I don't really think it's my virtue, but I do think it is virtue. So there are two levels of co-opting, the person co-opting and the thing co-opting, the person's self and the thing's self. By confessing and repenting those co-optings, that knocks away the root of this co-opting. So when there isn't co-opting, fine. And when there is, confess and repent it. That's the pure and simple color of true practice.

[45:16]

We just did it. And it just happened. And neither one of us have to co-opt this event. But if we do, then we've got something else to confess. Plenty to keep us busy for a whole lifetime. Well, from this life on throughout this is an endless practice until everybody is enlightened. This practice, the Bodhisattva's vow to continue this practice until everybody joins it and completes it. So will be going on for a long time. I think it's interesting that you brought the terms in confession, repentance, and taking refuge.

[46:28]

I'm just wondering what Suzuki Roshi's language for this same thing is, that these same practices are. It was pretty much the same. But he didn't talk about it pretty much until the last year of his life. I think he probably brought it up a little, I guess, that maybe he brought it up and his American students said, don't talk to us about that. But in his last year, he started to talk about precepts and taking refuge and confession and repentance. Actually, in that language. Before that, I guess he didn't think we were ready to bring up that aspect in practice too much. at Zen Center.

[47:34]

And even in his final year when he started .. I was there for those talks, and I hardly noticed him talking about it. It wasn't until quite a few years after he died that I started to watch him read those texts and say, oh, he did talk about this. But he kind of modeled confession. He did point out his own snip-ups. And he did seem to be quite unafraid to make mistakes. I mean, yeah, he did sometimes make mistakes, but he didn't seem to be afraid of making more. And you seem to be able to admit when he was off on something in a way that we found it quite easy to accept and easy to see.

[48:46]

But we didn't ourselves take that out. So that's nice for him. It's amazing that he does it, but I'm not quite ready for that myself. After he passed, we could see, oh yeah, he was showing us how to do it without saying, you know, this is what I'm doing and you should do it. That's the way I would see it now. Yesterday, I didn't come up, and then later I noticed that it was the same thing that happened at the unveiling.

[49:56]

I had something to say, and there was an opportunity, and I'm back. at the unveiling of the memorial stone for your father? So I thought today I would show up, because I wasn't really sure both times what the intention was of stepping back or stepping forward. So now I'm just trying stepping forward. And stepping forward is a way of actually taking refuge in Buddha. So yesterday, you, as I can remember it today, opened your presentation by saying you were pointing to a way, pointing toward the ultimate, and then it kind of

[50:59]

You also said it was expressing the Buddhist seal in every activity. Am I close? It's slightly different to say, I'm pointing to the ultimate, and I'm pointing to a way that points to the ultimate. You're pointing to a way that points to the ultimate. I might as well be pointing to the ultimate. Taking refuge points to the ultimate. Right. I knew there was a way in there somewhere. And then you were speaking about this non-duality in every moment, in every activity. And I wondered as I was sitting there, what would this body-mind look like? And what occurred to me, this is what I'm checking out, is it would be a mind of just this is it. a good day, or Bodhidharma is not moving, which would look like complete relaxation in every activity.

[52:10]

As opposed to trying to, you know, a mind sway, you know, this kind of little or not so little moving around. That was one thought I had. You want to hear that? Yeah. I feel like you're just trying to trap it. How so? You said it would look like this rather than that. So I felt like I was trying to trap it in this rather than that. Could I just be relaxed with that? I mean, which would seem like it would be kind of open again. It might be. That'd be fine. But to say it would look relaxed is not very relaxed. OK, I agree. OK, yeah.

[53:17]

In fact, I think I would have more clearly thought it would be an internal experience, not necessarily what it would look like, of relaxed. It would be an internal experience of relaxed? Yeah. This one, not struggling. It wouldn't necessarily look relaxed, but it might be going this way and that way, but to just be okay with going this way and that way would also be the way. To be okay with this way and that way sounds great to me. To point to that and say that's it, then I think we've lost the okay with this way and that. So what were you expressing when you felt that complete relaxation?

[54:22]

Well, one thing I was saying was that meeting things with complete relaxation is not the same as trying to relax. Right. Meeting things with complete relaxation includes that you can't get a hold of that relaxation. Complete relaxation means you can't have the relaxation. You could be relaxed with that. And you could be relaxed with that, and you can't have that either. All you can have is tension. But you really can't have that either, just to feel like, that I've got. I'm sure of that. So that seems like tension, right? But you can't even have that, and I can't have it either. But you feel like you've got that. Whereas if you feel like you've got relaxation, it's easier for me to point out, well, that's not relaxation. You've got another relaxation that you can't have. Of course, that's the final relaxation, the one you can't have.

[55:25]

There is concentration, but the perfection of it is to not be able to have it. Well, having it sounds like a size and a time duration, but actually everything is . Is that what we mean by not having? Yeah. The way things are is what we mean by not having. By not having. Right. So you're relaxed, but it's a moving, what do you call it, true return. It's one that you can't get a hold of. And not being able to get relaxation are real close friends. They're close and bosom friends. Relaxation and the way things are just moving all the time. Relaxation is the way to be with this extremely rapidly changing universe. to get a hold of that relaxation, the person is trying to figure out what it is or anything. That person is non-dual with the actual relaxation that nobody can have.

[56:31]

The person that actually got a relaxation or was struggling to find one is non-dual with the one who doesn't have it, who doesn't possess it even though it's taken over her life at that moment. But still, you see, we come forward to test it. That's good. Can you tell me about something? Testing is relaxation. So I have one more thing, but I wonder if you have space and if you could check for me if other people have space. She has one more thing. Is it okay about her having one more thing? any longer. Thank you, I think. Pretty much all positive feedback so far on that one.

[57:33]

But thanks for checking. I don't think this changes the subject, but it moves a little. And this is about the stone woman and the wooden man. which in a dualistic sense seem to me to represent our experience in karmic consciousness and not realizing non-duality or Buddha, and that the singing and dancing is this flow or this spontaneity or thinking non-thinking activity moment after moment do you have something to say about that i think this um so these the wooden man's like kind of consciousness yeah it's us being our habitual wooden guy wouldn't die like they talk about actors sometimes they're kind of

[58:54]

Kind of a cement actress. An actress who's caught up in her karmic consciousness. And that somehow the caught up karmic consciousness somehow can start to sing. Which is the leaping free of the many and the one. The way I usually Right. So the wooden man singing is the inconceivable function. But what you're saying is another slant on this, that it's like, how can habitual, habituated, karmic consciousness leap free? Well, it's going to be. our history and so on.

[60:08]

But still, somehow, miraculously, a person who's got a karmic consciousness can commune . And so the person who's got karmic consciousness maybe can sin, can be free without changing anything. . I see one person. One more person is OK for one more person to come. So I was wondering if you could say a little bit more about this testing, because it seems to me that part of what I heard you say was that we test with others whether what we think is taking refuge is actually taking refuge, whether they'll reflect back to us that it looks like taking refuge.

[61:29]

If you feel like you're wholeheartedly taking refuge, and test it, I would suggest. If you don't feel like you're holy, then we've got to work towards being willing to give ourselves wholly to that. But when you feel like, yeah, I think I'm giving it a shot here, and actually, for me, it's good. My question is, we have this other thing about that which can be met with recognition is not realization itself. That's a good one. Did you think that up by yourself? I jotted it down. So that wouldn't be the way to test it. Right. So what kind of test that I can think of would be an attempt to bring it into recognition or bring it into perception. And so that's my question. You could try that way. And then people might say, mm-mm, this is not refuge-taking.

[62:34]

Again, we're trying to get a hold of it. That's kind of what Sonya was doing. But still, to bring .. Well, I feel like I'm practicing in the midst of this awareness of non-duality with the Buddhas. And I want to be here. I keep returning to this place. And now I want to test it. And so when you start to test it, the person has to actually make it into something you can recognize. And you can kind of feel, oh, yeah, I guess I am. And so that's not the way it's going to be proved. So I guess maybe that's my confession, is that the only kind of test I can sort of imagine, the only way to test it that I can imagine, is to bring it into recognition. Right, but now that you've heard it, have to offer, that probably too.

[63:43]

Now, you say, well, I can recognize that. Fine, you can recognize it. But what you're recognizing is not it. The person saying yes is a little closer, actually, than your recognition. And you say, oh, that proves it. That proves it, but you can't have that. But it mainly proves it because you put yourself out there, and you get a response. That's the proving. It's the bringing forward that's here. You're bringing forward. You're admitting or not admitting, but you're bringing forward with your agenda, and you get feedback. And if you think you got something, That may show. That person may be able to see it and be like, well, that doesn't seem as much like taking refuge as just the fact that you offered this thing, that you just asked me for something, that you just asked me if you could give me something.

[64:55]

That felt more like taking refuge than now I feel like you're trying to get me. They might say that to you. And you might do something like what they said, too. But they may say, but I don't really, I'm just responding. I'm not really saying that proves or disproves. They might say, this is my gift to you. And I felt good about your gift to me. And I didn't feel, I felt like that was like, in accord, it was love that you did. That that was your way of, it And I don't really feel like I recognized anything there. I feel like this is realization itself for now. And I might have felt that you were trying to get a hold of something there, which I could point out to you, or somebody could point out to you. The only way I know how at that time of saying that, you may not be able to recognize that as anything.

[66:05]

Did you get that right? So then it's an ongoing. The testing is ongoing. The testing is ongoing, yeah. The refuge is ongoing. The samadhi, it's a samadhi. The practicing in the context of this communion with Buddhas is ongoing. And then, but again, of doing this, so you get feedback. You could be dreaming, but actually spending a lot of time in forgetfulness, or making it something you can get a hold of, which is also forgiving. Going for refuge doesn't mean you go for refuge and you get the refuge and take it with you. Is that enough for today?

[67:18]

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