So I've been getting ready to start observing our consciousness, the karmic consciousness, self-consciousness, afflicted consciousness, and also I've heard that the sound has been turned up. Can you hear me well, Peter? Pardon? It's a little afflicted. Did you hear that, Paul? There's a report of affliction in the sound. Is it irritating or painful? Irritating. Irritating. It's hard to hear. Do you think we should turn it down a little bit, or what do you think?

[01:02]

We can test it. Let's do some testing, okay? How's this? Is this good? Good over here? Is it good over there? Yeah. How is the hearing going now? Good? Great. So this field, this enclosure, this enclosed awareness is one of the awareness that we have in our life. And if we take good care of it, we will understand it. And if we understand it, we've done our Buddha responsibility. We become, we do Buddha's work when we contemplate this and see its beauty and truth.

[02:09]

These things are not, I don't think we're supposed to eliminate these things and nobody, we're not, and the Buddha's not going to fix the situation. We may want somebody to come in and fix it, But Buddha's not going to fix it. Buddha's going to teach Dharma about this situation. And by teaching the Dharma, and if we listen to the teaching and experiment with it in this field, we will understand these phenomena. And understanding these phenomena is Buddha. but it's painful work sometimes. And we're all doing it. Like Elizabeth just observed some irritation in her consciousness and reported it. There's a static. The static coming back? Okay. Anybody else hearing the static? I can definitely know of this.

[03:13]

And how is that? Better? Better? I'll keep talking and you'll see, okay. So there's a teaching from ancient India from the wonderful Bodhisattva Vasubandhu and he said that in this consciousness Self. There's the phenomena of self. And all the phenomena in this kind of consciousness comes in five varieties. And anything that's going on if you report it to someone who's trained in his teaching of these five varieties.

[04:29]

He's also called, in Sanskrit, called five skandhas, and Pali called five khandhas. And khandha means, or skandha means, it's a category. So there's many phenomena, but basically five types. And anything you observe there, if you would report it, someone who's trained in this can tell you which of those five it goes in. And you might not be able to surprise them. They couldn't see it, one of these five types. And if you report a self, they would ask you to tell more about what the self is. Is it material data? Is it a light? A smell? A sound? A taste? A touch? And those physical phenomena could give a sense of self.

[05:35]

Like, oh, that's my smell. That's my sound. Or that's a sound. That's my touch. And then the sense of self might just be one of those experiences, one of those data. But most people would say, well, that's not really my self, that color, that sound. But that could be your sense of self at the moment. Even though you might see that's not usually what I think of as my self. And it could be a feeling, pain, pleasure, neutral. It could be an idea. It could be many different emotions. And it could be consciousness. And if you would report your phenomenal experience of this sense of self,

[06:36]

I... you might... anything more than one of those kinds of data, one of those kinds of phenomena. And yet, people often think that the self is something in addition to those things. Something... it's something... it's something in addition to feeling. It's something in addition... it's something in addition to karmic awareness, karmic consciousness awareness. many of you know I had this I draw this picture you know of everything like a circle everything and then there's something more everything in the universe plus something there's something in addition to everything and it just happens to be me you don't think that you don't think I'm in addition to everything but there is something that you might think is in addition and it might be you even though that doesn't matter.

[07:41]

There is that idea. So, the self, according to Vasubandhu, comes with four afflictions. One is self-confusion. And again, I just talked about the self-confusion that we experience of it. It must be one of these types. And if you look at that, it's kind of confusing because you don't really think you're pleasure. You don't think you're pain. You don't think you're a neutral sensation. But, in fact, you know, that's what you're experiencing at the time and it's kind of confusing. Well, that's where I'm getting the sense of self. So there is a basic confusion because it's like It has to be what's going on here, and yet it's not one of those things. That's a sample of self-confusion.

[08:47]

And that confusion ranges from irritating and nauseating to excruciating to intolerable. Yeah, some people just they cannot stand the confusion around the self. And of course, then there's an emotion which can come up, which might be seen as a self too, but just the emotion, I want to get rid of this, get rid of all this, and if I got rid of the self, I'd get rid of that. It's true, if you didn't have a self, you wouldn't have a vision. But wanting to get rid of it, it's another affliction. It's probably the self-pride. Self-pride is, I think, associated with that in this field of consciousness, with all these afflictions, whichever ones are here at the moment, and that overall pattern which is the thinking or the actual action of the consciousness is the overall pattern

[09:59]

pride that the self is actually operating this pattern, that the self makes it, that the self is doing the action. Like, I'm angry. That's a kind of prideful thing, is that I'm doing the anger. I'm greedy. Or I'm not angry, and I'm not greedy. I'm thinking. I'm feeling. The sense of self is in the field where there's something going on, and then there's this affliction, which is the thought that the self is actually operating what's going on. And that's aggregated to the self much more than It's actually, it's like, you know, a big family with like 50 members in it and one of them says, I own all you, I own the rest of you.

[11:11]

And human beings can think like that. They can have a thought. That's not really thinking. Human beings can have such a pattern in which that thought lives. And you don't have to teach people how to think like that or how to have those thoughts. They come up with them quite naturally. I could use the example of my grandson. He came to Green Gulch one time and there was a play area and there was lots of toys there. And after he'd only been there a couple of times, he said, all these toys are mine. I left them here the last time I was here. Children can think like that. You walk in some place and say, I own all this stuff, but I haven't been here before. I never saw those toys. Well, I left them here the last time I was here. Kind of clever. To back up this idea that the self owns what's going on.

[12:17]

Usually, semi-reasonable adults, when they arrive at some place and have never been there before, they don't walk in and think, I own this place. But after they're there for a while, they kind of succumb to the idea that this one idea or this one feeling in the field owns everything else in the field. And it's very rare, although I think it's a good exercise, a good experiment, that there's the idea that the feelings operate the self, or that the feelings own the self, or that the thoughts own the self. It's more like my thoughts My thoughts are me. The reversal of it helps see that it's not true. They just coexist. They're actually all companions and they all come up together. It isn't like the self is there first and then the self brings on the rest of it. But the self's there and then the self makes the thinking.

[13:23]

The consciousness comes up and it has a pattern. It always comes up with lots of stuff. And the stuff has a pattern which is clear or unclear. And there's a sense of self there. And then this consciousness goes away and the whole pattern goes away. And then the next one comes up. None of them are there beforehand pushing the rest of them up. They all come up dependent, co-arising. They all come up together and go away together. They're born together and die together. But there's an affliction of I did this. And again, even I'm responsible. This is that word responsible, which we can play with. I'm responsible. But actually, everything in the field is responsible, not just the I. but not uniquely. But again, that's the affliction of self-pride.

[14:25]

The other one I mentioned is self-esteem or self-love, which is that even though we sense all the affliction around the self and we kind of want to get rid of it when it's really tough, we don't want to trade it for somebody else, even though it's a problem if we're going to have one and we want this one. and the other one is that self-esteem or self-love, and the other one is self-view. There's this sense of egocentrism, that the self is center, but the feeling isn't at center, the idea isn't at center, but actually they're all equally at the center, and none are uniquely at the center. all are at the center of a huge pattern of dependent core. About everything coming together to make this feeling, this emotion, this idea, this fear, this pride, this faith, this appreciation.

[15:32]

Each one of those things is at the center of the universe. But there usually isn't the idea that there isn't the center. There's the view that the self is at the center. So those afflictions which were told by that ancient teacher, they just come up every moment. So the self comes up, lots of other stuff comes, and these four afflictions always come up. Greed comes up, but usually greed doesn't come up at the same time as hatred. They usually alternate. Or even when neither one of them is there and you just have confusion. But the sense of self is, if it isn't there, it isn't karmic consciousness. The karmic pattern has a center with it. And the self is actually part of the pattern. It's not like up above or over to the side. You could put it at the center, but it doesn't really have to be there.

[16:35]

It's only the center in the sense of everything else being at the center. So studying is for the sake of relief. from the fixed patterns of affliction. And actually for the sake of understanding what the self actually is. And how to study is, you know, that's the art. How to study. The art of studying karmic consciousness. It's an art. And it's a science. So Buddhist science studies this field. It observes. It experiments. It plays. And the observation works well in silence and stillness. When we feel supported to really like just have the ability to clearly observe.

[17:42]

How's the sound? Sinking? Okay, well, why didn't you tell me? I'm just kidding. It's sinking now? Okay. Let me know if it's sinking. Just say sinking. Thank you. Here's a story about one teacher who was really good at testing karmic consciousnesses and helping people test karmic consciousness. So one time a student came to him and he became one of the leaders of his community.

[18:44]

He became the director of the monastery. But he never came to see the teacher, the great, wonderful teacher, whose name was Dharma Eye, or Dharma Eyes. And so one day Fa Yen said to the director, how come you never come into my room to discuss the Dharma with me? And the director said, oh, didn't you know? I had, you know, I had awakening with this other teacher. Some people think that after you have awakening with maybe a really good teacher, that that's the end of the story. And you don't go talk to other teachers then. You don't discuss the Dharma then anymore because you're done. Anyway, there was something like that in his understanding.

[19:46]

And Fa Yen said, oh, tell me about it. Fa Yen is probing his own mind and the director's mind. Tell me about it. He's experimenting with his own mind at the same time that he's inviting the director to look at himself and tell him what happened, how he sees things. And it started when he first said, you've been here for quite a while, how come you never come? That's testing consciousness. I wonder what happened. I don't see him coming. I have a question about that. I think I'll give him a question. questioning as a gift, as a Dharma gift. How come you don't come? And he said, he explained, and the teacher asked more questions. Tell me about it. So the guy says, well, I asked the teacher, what is the self of the student?

[20:52]

In other words, what is my self? And the teacher said, the fire god comes seeking fire. It's actually... fire boy god the fire god comes seeking fire and uh and i understand i awake to to myself to what the self is and fayan said well tell me more and he said well in the realm of the fire god, the fire god comes seeking fire, even though he already is fire. And that's like in the realm of Buddha, Buddha comes looking for Buddha. And Faya said, uh-huh, okay. Well, that's what I thought. I didn't think you understood. I thought you didn't, and now I'm asking.

[21:59]

Now I say, yeah, you don't understand. Actually, he said, I think, those are fine words of the previous teacher, but I don't think you understood. And I would say, in light of our conversation, that the director then did not look... He did not look to see what was going on there, and therefore he became, what do you call it, a puppet. of his anger. He didn't look and say, oh, I'm angry. What's that about? He just got angry. Angry about what? I don't think you understood. He didn't look and say, what is that? And so he did get angry, but he didn't yell at the teacher or whatever. He just left the monastery. And as he was leaving, after a while, he he thought, well, he's the teacher of all these people.

[23:08]

Maybe I should give him another chance. So he went back to the teacher and he said, okay, I'm sorry I got angry. I'm sorry I ran away, but I'm back. So how shall we proceed? And Fa Yen said, well, ask me again what you asked the other teacher. And so he said, what's the self of the student? And Fa Yen said, the fire god comes seeking fire. And he understood, he actually understood that time. But I think Fa Yen helped deeply So he saw it in a more authentic way, what his self was. He learned something about himself in the process, in that dialogue that they went through, and in the anger he went through, and in not taking care of it, and storming out and walking away and coming back.

[24:20]

Now we're going to do it again. It's a good teaching. What is the self? Fire God, come seek and fire hope. He understood. So that was the way the teacher in conversation helped the student understand the self. And he did that same method of getting people to look again at the situation in subtle different ways. are subtly different ways, are slightly different ways to get on their clinging or their, you know, being charged up around some part of the process so that they can become free. Not by getting rid of this, but by seeing it more deeply and more kindly. Yes? that the director had this anger?

[25:29]

Is that what you're saying? I think he probably could see it, because he probably could see something in his body language. But I think what he saw before, he saw this person in me. And usually, people in this monastery come and talk to me about the Dharma, so that's already kind of unusual. Like, are they afraid of me? They might be afraid of him because big important teacher. They might be afraid to show their questions about the Dharma. They don't want the teacher to see that they don't know very much even though they're in a leadership position. Is it that he thinks he's finished and there's no more? no more depth that he can go in the Dharma. Unlike Dogen, that he knows everything. Another possibility. A lot of reasons, but the teacher didn't know. The teacher didn't know that teachers walk. But the teacher did see, he's not coming to study with me.

[26:31]

You need to talk to him about fire and fire gods seeking fire. No, he just knew he wasn't coming to see him. He didn't know why. So he said, well, how come you don't come to see me? And the guy told him, well, I'm already awakened. So now he knows. And that was a possibility in the first place. Maybe he's not coming to see me because he thinks he's perfect. Some people do think that about themselves. Can you... And especially in religious practice places, people think like that quite often. And we have all this violence now in the world because people think they understand spiritual truth and they're done learning. Some people think like that. I'm no longer a student of Islam or Judaism or Christianity or Buddhism. I'm a master. I don't need any further training.

[27:35]

Here's another story. How many people heard that story? One time I was at Tassajara during guest season and I was having breakfast with the guests and one of the guests I was having breakfast with said to me, do you live here? And I said yes. How many people heard that story? Can I tell it? Okay, so... Yeah, I remember it and I don't remember it too, and this is the way I don't remember it. She said, do you live here? And I said, yes. She said, are you a student here? And I said, yes. And I wasn't being modest. I am a student. I love it. I've loved it from the beginning. And I'm not planning on retiring as a student. Anyway, I told her that. Then later she said to someone in the service, she said, who was that masked man? And the service said, that's the abbot.

[28:39]

And she went to hear that the abbot was a student rather than the abbot not student anymore. So anyway, this person wasn't a student. He was done. He was a master. So that's already a sign. Something's funny here. I'm being examined, so let's do some examination. How come? And then he told him, because I had this awakening. Oh, how did it happen? And then he told him. Well, I asked him this question. And when he answered my question, I understood what he meant. I understood what the self, what my self was when he said, the fire gods come seeking fire. I understood the self. That's what the director said. And I don't think Thayen was kind of suspicious. Like he was, he wasn't at the conclusion.

[29:45]

He said, well, tell me more. I'm afraid you might have not understood him. So tell me more. And he did. And then he listened. The teacher listened and he said, oh, yeah, I guess, yeah, I don't think he did understand. And then the teacher probably wasn't surprised that the director got angry. Because here's a master and somebody's saying, well, actually, there's something you don't understand. And then he probably could see he got angry. Oh, by the way, one thing he said after this guy left, he said to his attendant, if he comes back, he can be liberated. If he doesn't, he's trapped. He did come back, so it's a happy story. And you can see Fa Yan's method throughout.

[30:46]

And then the final thing is just to go back to the original thing, and just play with it a little bit and help the person see that things are really different from what they thought. Not give them some whole new teaching. They were actually focusing on and just show it slightly from the other side. And it worked. And there's many stories with him doing that with people. Checking them out and they respond and he checks them again and they respond and then he checks them again and they see change. they see the truth of the self. Any further questions about that? What? You will? Yes. What he discovered, what had he missed?

[31:46]

What was the difference between what? I mean, part of it was that he was lacking, in the first instance, any further inquiry or willingness to inquire. He thought he'd got it. So that was a mistake from his understanding. Yes. But the second time he met to look at fire, God's fire with Diane, what was his understanding of that? that time? Was it just that he revealed himself? Or he understood that anger had come up with him and that was a tendency? Well, he probably understood that before he came back. He was learning more throughout the process. And then instead of giving him, instead of About his anger or whatever, or his arrogance, Fa Yan used the original incident where he thought he had awakening and brought it up again to see what his awakening was now.

[32:52]

And he could see that it wasn't, I think he could see it wasn't the same. And it wasn't. Maybe this time, when he saw it, when he awoken the second time, maybe he saw it in a way that he saw he wasn't done. And maybe he saw how arrogant he was. The scope of what he saw could have been very large. And the funny thing is, if it's very large, you're not done with it. And if it's kind of small, you think, that's it, I got it. I got a hold of it. But if it's very big, you say, oh, now I see. Now I see. Yeah, now I see self-pride. Or now I see, thinking that I could get a hold of the Dharma like I used to think I did, thinking that me grasping this was really understanding. Now I see how silly that is. It just reminds me of, there was this Christian called St.

[34:01]

Thomas Aquinas. And he was one of the great philosophers of the Christian church in the medieval times. And he wrote all these magnificent teachings of systematizing the science of Christianity. And then he had an awakening. He saw how all this stuff he did, which was like made him a saint, how he said it was like pieces of straw thrown into vast space. That was his great awakening, and he stopped writing. So again, when you have a really big awakening, you might not think that you could, you know, write anything about it. Before, his awakenings were great, and he could write about it, but when he finally, he couldn't say anything.

[35:02]

He just continued to live as the great saint for the rest of his life, but no more writing because it didn't reach. It didn't touch it. And he didn't destroy it. Some Zen teachers want their books destroyed because in a way then people think that's what they understood is his words. So a lot of Zen teachers, several of the great teachers, they saw that this teaching that they gave should not be written down. So they wrote it down. So we have all these books. The students writing down what the teacher didn't want to have written down. Do you know how long he lived after that? No, I don't. But I think... He must have been pretty old because he wrote so much. He wouldn't have written all that before he was 50. He just wrote a tremendous amount.

[36:06]

So he might have, he was, I don't know how long he lived after that, but he didn't write anything after that. But he might have lived peacefully, you know, for quite a while after that. I don't know the dates of those things. I could check the dates of his last major works and then the date he died. It might have been five years, ten years, but he wasn't a kid when he had the insight because he had already done a huge... I guess he's the most prolific philosopher in the Christian church. Yes? We read Thomas Aquinas' works and take exams on them, but they never told me about the straws. LAUGHTER I'll do that. I know a way to do that. I'll be right back.

[37:07]

I'm going to go to the control panel, which is modeled on my consciousness. Is that good? These here? How about the lighter scale ones? I'll check, but at first sight I do not have a preference for my work.

[38:13]

My bodhisattva work, I don't have a preference for it. into it, and I love doing it, but I don't prefer it. Therefore, I can sit at the table without giving a lecture. Do you understand? No. So if I sit at the table with people, they do not want me to give a lecture. They want to eat and talk to each other. They don't want to hear about Buddhism or they don't want me to liberate them. They say, well, we're going to be left in peace. And I can just drop the whole thing. In other words, I can be liberated from my job because I don't have a preference for it. And I can accept the liberation work at this time. Leave me alone, granddaddy. What? Does that relate to your question at all? It relates to it. It doesn't answer it, but it relates to it.

[39:16]

Yeah. So anyway, I don't really prefer... Really? We have a lie detector on you right now. You like the science. I just happen to have a lie detector on me. And what it's doing right now is it's giggling. And that means that I'm telling the truth. So I don't prefer Buddha. And my understanding is I do not prefer Buddha. I know some other people do, but I don't. And part of the reason I don't is because my understanding is Buddha doesn't prefer Buddha. Buddha doesn't prefer Buddha over us. Buddha loves us, but not looking down on us love, but intimate love. where there's no way for Buddha to be preferred over us. There's no Buddha but us. Do I prefer sentient beings? You know, if you forced me to choose between, to prefer sentient beings or Buddhas, one or the other, it would be tough.

[40:27]

If I was forced, I might just, out of stubbornness, prefer sentient beings. But I actually don't prefer sentient beings. I want to love them. I want to just compassionate with them. But that doesn't mean I prefer them. And I want to honor Buddha and praise Buddha who doesn't prefer Buddha over sentient beings, but is totally devoted to them and in and protection. And this involves studying sentient beings and studying Buddha. And it's a different study, but I would like not to have one get way ahead of the other. Don't just always study sentient beings and never study Buddha, or vice versa. And also be questioning about it.

[41:29]

Am I studying sentient beings too much? Am I studying karmic consciousness too much? Without also looking at teachings about how to study and questioning Hans, telling people arms. So, you know, it's an ongoing work of art, right? But I really don't prefer Buddha. I don't prefer Zen over Christianity or vice versa. I really appreciate your answer. You're welcome. And Yuki? It seemed like you mentioned Dogen earlier. Yes. I've never heard. Heard what? That he said that. Yeah. Isn't that great? It really is. Thanks. Yeah. But when you first drew this picture, to study Buddhism is to study the self. Yeah. And to study the self in infinite ways, in millions of ways.

[42:33]

It never ends. It never ends. But we have the joy of study. Yeah. Well, forgetting could also be understood as when you deeply study it, you can't get a hold of it, you can't find it. You realize it's ungraspable. Because it's nothing other than these phenomena, and we don't really think these phenomena are so. And it has no independent existence, but we tend to think it does, and that it's a great bossy thing. But it's not. It's another fragile, beautiful, dependable rising. The whole universe is in concert, creates this self moment by moment. It's a wonderful thing to be studied and to not attach to, but to study it. Am I sinking?

[43:38]

Sinking? A little sinking. How's that? Is that enough for now? For now, okay. Yuki? Is Buddha ever so? Well, the historical Buddha, some people say the historical Buddha, certainly before awakening, had a really big ego. And a number of Buddha's disciples had really big egos. But they studied them and became free of them. In the incarnated human being, Shakyamuni, that person still used the word, like he used conventionally, he still used the word I or my. He did that. Did he actually still have his consciousness?

[44:41]

I think, quite likely, it may have still been there. Or it may not have been there anymore, but he used it so he could talk to people. But some part of Buddha does not have the self at all, does not have a... What do you call it? It does not have the unconscious cognition process. It doesn't have that. Those are three minds. At a certain point in the development of Buddha, there's just wisdom, period. There's no additional facilities. And this consciousness uses... this wisdom uses other beings' consciousness to conjure up ideas of self. That's the true body of Buddha. But the transformation of body of Buddha takes on things like an ego in order to show people... It may sound like that.

[45:56]

Does it also sound like sentient beings are a thing in themselves? Yeah, and I'm just saying, do you think that sounds like the sentient beings are a thing? He said, one of the things, yeah. But sentient beings, the sentient beings that are things, they don't exist independently, and neither does the Buddha. So, Buddha can appear as a thing, and St. James can appear as a thing, either one. But with study, we realize they aren't independently existing things. They are dependently co-arisen things. And that's so wonderful. That's what the Buddha discovered. These things are dependent core risings. They're not independent entities. So Buddha isn't that, and sentient beings aren't that. And that way they're on a par. Buddha's a dependent core rising too.

[46:58]

Buddha's a dependent core rising. And what's the dependent core rising of Buddhas? Bodhisattvas are the dependent core rising of Buddhas. All beings are dependent core rising of Buddhas. No, no. For the type of awareness which has a self. I don't... That type of awareness that doesn't have a self is the unconscious cognitive process and wisdom. Wisdom doesn't have a self. And the unconscious cognitive process, which is doing most of the work of our cognitive life, which is most of what our nervous system is operating, it doesn't have a self there. There's nobody there. There's nobody sitting there. This is my cognitive regulation of the heartbeat. This is my assessment of the environment. All that's going on, but there's nobody there owning it or disowning it.

[48:05]

And there's fear there, but it's not like I'm afraid. It's just fear of these strange things that are all around. We don't know if they're... There's all that kind of thing going on. There's vigilance. There's cruelty. There's ill will. There's violence. There's kindness. There's compassion. All that stuff's in there. but nobody's there. And that's a big, rich part of our life. And that gives, that dependently contributes to the arising of consciousness. And consciousness does have a sense of self. Take away the sense of self, it's not consciousness anymore. It would be unconscious. It would just kind of like flop back into consciousness. Into unconscious. Which it does, like I say, when you're in dreamless sleep, the consciousness just sort of melts into the unconscious.

[49:08]

And the equipment for giving rise to another moment of consciousness is there and can be used when appropriate. And sometimes this person will get a better night's sleep if we just turn the consciousness off, deeper sleep. And then it says, I think we should wake this person up. So it wakes him up and then that comes to self. So I guess the consciousness is manifest and latent. It's latent, it's latent and unconscious. And sometimes, like we say in dementia, it's latent but it's very hard to revive it. But ordinarily, it gets revived every morning, even after it becomes latent. And some nights, it's manifest all night in dreams. It never takes a rest. And that's not as restful. But, you know, that happens. Even though the person's asleep, and they're getting some rest, they're basically conscious all night.

[50:17]

But other times, the consciousness is resolves itself into a dew of the unconscious. That's my story. Yes. Most, in terms of our body, in terms of our nervous system, is unconscious. Again, if you look at the neurological activity that upholds a moment of consciousness, I've heard like there's 11 events in a very short period of time, and the unconscious is 40 million. Vastly more going on unconsciously than consciously. But consciousness is very important because consciousness can do things that unconscious can't. The unconscious cannot do math problems. It cannot ask certain kind of questions.

[51:19]

It cannot ask questions the way consciousness can. So consciousness is very useful for examining and questioning. Even though the unconscious could answer the question much faster than the consciousness, it's often biased by its history. The unconscious, the conscious can also be can notice the bias and take it into account and do something that requires more work but is more accurate. How do different kinds of mental illness fit into this picture? How does mental illness fit into the picture? Psychosis or schizophrenia. How does this picture of consciousness arise from the subconscious? we have an unconscious process which can give rise to a consciousness that is going on.

[52:21]

So in that sense, every state of consciousness is at least neurotic. So normally the afflicted consciousness that rises is neurotic, is mentally ill. We could say for afflicted self, but you could also say for illnesses. These are illnesses. These are ill. They're suffering. So normal karmic consciousness is mental illness. What about psychosis? Psychosis, I would say, the karmic consciousness the cognitive unconscious gives rise to a mind where there are unusually excessive boundaries and very rigid patterns, so the person can't interact with the neurotics anymore. And so the neurotics send the person to have psychotherapy or take medication.

[53:28]

because he's more, he's got mental problems that they don't have to the same extent. One, I remember Gregor Bateson had theory and he also said he defined schizophrenia, the person takes what is intended as a metaphor literally and takes literal things as metaphors. That's a pattern that arises in their consciousness. And they do that. His theory was, and some people feel he should have got more credit for this. The theory is that in certain families, the parents show the child one thing and tell them that it's another. And that type of presentation, like, for example, a mother who really feels perhaps sexual affection for a child, acts very coldly because she feels it's not appropriate to have those feelings.

[54:36]

That's what she feels, so she tells the child, but the child feels them. Or the mother hates the child and is having homicidal thoughts. And she says, I love you. You're the most dear thing in the world to me. And the child sees that she's angry. And she's saying, I'm not angry. That disturbs their relationship. their consciousness in such a way that it transforms their unconscious and they misinterpret the world in ways that are kind of like, especially like inverted and painful and troublesome. So that would be a possible story. Genesis of psychosis as somewhat special. Also, the bodies of some people give rise to cognitive processes which are conducive to, more than most, to depression or anxiety or schizophrenia.

[55:42]

And so these processes then are in the body and in the unconscious and they tend to contribute to the production of certain special varieties of mental illness. But pretty much, excuse me, I'm very simple-minded, all of these illnesses are calling for compassion and compassion in all its varieties will observe and experiment with the situation and work and work until the person is liberated. Like another story which I often tell is this wonderful story wounded healer named Milton Erickson. And he worked in New Mexico, I think, and Arizona. And he was called into the, I think, the institution in Las Vegas, Nevada. No, Las Vegas, New Mexico.

[56:46]

And he went there regularly, but one time he went, they brought a patient to him who thought he was Jesus. And he wouldn't talk to anybody, staff or otherwise, unless they would acknowledge that he was Jesus. So of course, almost no one would do that, so he wasn't talking to anybody. And Milton Erickson met him and, you know, compassionately met him. And then he thought, oh, I heard you're a carpenter. So he got this experiment. He observed the guy and he did this experiment saying, oh, he could acknowledge that the guy was a carpenter. He honestly could say, I understand you're a carpenter. And the guy said, well, yeah, I am. Because Jesus is a carpenter, right? He didn't say, I understand you're Jesus.

[57:50]

He said, I understand you're a carpenter. And then he said, would you build me some bookshelves? And the guy said, sure. And he built bookshelves. He could start to relate to people as a carpenter. He still thought he was Jesus, but he could relate to other human beings because he didn't require that they acknowledge his divinity, which he was requiring before, which is not very workable with most people. So Milton Erickson could acknowledge him, but honestly, only as a carpenter. And that was enough to reach in and touch his consciousness with compassion and do that experiment and find things could start moving then. He wasn't so rigidly hung up on his ideas. He still had them. And that's a challenging situation he had probably for the rest of his life. But we can find a peace with our current karmic setup if someone teaches us how to be kind to it and find peace with it.

[59:03]

So here's an extreme case. But this compassionate person found a way to make contact. Another Hail Mary, right? got in there and said, he could find a way to relate. We have to find a way to relate. And in this case, I talk about the CNN doctor. They said, did you get to him? They didn't ask him, did he get to you? But I would say in the Milton Erikson story, Jesus got to Milton, and then Milton could get to Jesus. Let him get to him. Oh, you're a carpenter. And then based on that, he could turn around and relate to him. So I kind of think, like they say, if two people don't speak the same language, the more intelligent one should learn the other person's language. So, you know, I speak English and I'm more intelligent than you, so you should learn English.

[60:06]

It's the British way in the imperial age. But no, we should learn the other person's language. And I also, I remember when Atisha, I heard, I think it was Atisha, when he went, the king of Tibet said, you know, thanks for coming. Tell me about Buddhism. And Atisha said, well, tell me about your religion. So again, this is like the teacher needs to show how to be a student. So the healer needs to show how to be a student of illness and start helping the person who has a particular form of illness and show them how to study. And there's so many different types of illness. Like, there's ten million types and Dogen didn't understand them. The joy of faith, that study, that observation and experimentation with phenomena in a state of stillness and silence was going to open up the doors of wisdom.

[61:16]

Kurt. In listening to you, I'm reflecting on my own experience with consciousness and what it feels like to me and what fascinates me is there's like this just constant call it an energy that, you know, just seems to just be on and on and on and on. And so I find myself, you know, being conscious of that. So like I'm sitting, it's just kind of watching this consciousness, essentially. Thank you. Thank you for watching it. There's this witness, you know, watching it, and I guess I'm asking what part of consciousness is this witness of this looking at this?

[62:33]

Well, I would say, for starters, I suggest that consciousness is the awareness in consciousness. That's the job of consciousness. But it doesn't mean that the parts... The consciousness is aware of all the contents of all this energy. So the consciousness is the total impact of all this energetic activity enclosed in the consciousness. And it's an enclosed awareness, and it's the awareness of this whole universe. small universe called consciousness. So I would say consciousness is the word awareness. But it doesn't mean that all the parts don't share in the awareness because they're not independent of the awareness because the consciousness arises with and of these things.

[63:34]

So to some extent they're also witnessing. But the overall we call that consciousness. And the individual witnessings are the individual dharmas. Greed is a kind of witness. Hatred is a kind of witness. But the overall impact of all these phenomena and also the overall pattern of thinking that's registered on the consciousness. That would be one thing to check out. And I've been checking that out. I feel that's still my understanding. So the witness isn't over here. The witness's whole situation is... And his contents... Which, again, it's not more important than them because it comes with them. And they're not more important than it because they come with it.

[64:35]

They're born together. They're... status. They create each other. Nothing's in charge of anything in the field, including all these ideas of who's in charge. And we do have sometimes ideas of who's in charge, right? You've seen some of them? Well, those are delusions, if you believe them. But if you just hear them as silly ideas, then they're not so harmful. But they're risky, or they're tempting to fall for, because they also have subtitles which say, this is true, and I'll pay you if you believe. And they will pay you if you believe them. But they're not to be believed. They're to be listened to and witnessed with compassion. And then if we can do it with them, we can do it with the way other people appear to us. The other thing that I feel more that I pay attention to all of this seems that more unconsciousness, you know, kind of becomes conscious.

[65:50]

In a way, I think that's true, that there's some parts of our unconscious which may feel unsafe if they feel that appearing in consciousness would be disastrous to them. So some things are hiding out because they feel like if they were allowed to surface, they would be treated unkindly. But if we treat, you know, if I treat Barry kindly, you know, maybe Tina will dare to do it herself. But if I'm not kind to Barry, she said, I'm not going to show him who I am because look what he did to Barry. So if we, if what, because everything that comes up... in the conscious is coming up, is based on the unconscious. Excuse me, everything that comes up is based on the unconscious, but some things that have come up are coming from wisdom. So wisdom comes in there too. And sometimes wisdom says, I am going in there, because every time when those unconscious things come up there, they get treated cruelly.

[66:59]

my dear Dharma teaching to be treated cruelly. That wouldn't be good. It's not because I'm trying to prevent damage, but I don't want this person to get it. When this comes, I want them to receive it well. And if the wisdom feels like we're receiving it well, it reveals itself. So, just by the way, just happen to have written here what I'm talking about. that if you're like this, to the stuff in your consciousness, then the Buddha will reveal your wisdom mind to you. And this is from the Lotus Sutra. In the Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16, the Buddha says, I'm always with you, but I'm not going to reveal myself to you until you're ready. And when you're ready, I'm going to show you that I've always been here, that I'm here now. But you have to do this work before I'm going to come out of hiding or take the veil away.

[68:07]

And this says, harmonious? No, it says flexible, you know, relaxed, open, harmonious, upright, and honest. If you're that way with the stuff in consciousness, unconscious stuff will come, but also Buddha wisdom will come. But it'll be hidden in a way until you're ready for it. And to some extent the unconscious will be that way too. Part of the preparation is you practice this with your conscious material and the gift is you get unconscious challenges come up. I should say, the unconscious gives you tests to see if you'll be nice to them too. And if you're kind to them, then the wisdom comes. I always think of that story of the miller who said his daughter could spin straw into gold.

[69:07]

So she spins straw into gold and her reward is she gets another room with more straw to spin into gold. It's kind of like that. When you're kind to beings, your reward is your kindness. If you're not kind, people are not going to give you more chances. They're not going to feed you more vulnerable beings if they see you don't take care of them. But if you take care of them, they say, oh, look, she took care of that. Let's send some more vulnerable beings, because she knows how to take care of them. And we're ready to receive the big visitor, Buddha's wisdom. And we have to do a lot of that before we're ready to really open to this wonderful Buddha's wisdom, which is right there, waiting for us when we're ready. Isn't that nice that I have that written here? Cicicurci's son wrote this. Marie and Judy and Leon.

[70:14]

Yeah, it almost sounds like that. Another picture of it, which I mentioned in that book, Third Turning of the Wheel, which talks But I don't recommend it. It's really hard books. Don't read it. But anyway, in that book, I think I quoted D. H. Lawrence, and he said, this is what I know about the conscious self. It's like a clearing in the middle of a dark forest. It's more like the dark forest of unconsciousness surrounding our consciousness, and there's a clearing. And then over here, there's millions, there's infinite clearings in the dark forest, which is unlimited. And each of our consciousnesses is a little clearing where we can see stuff.

[71:38]

And wisdom is understanding this whole relationship. It's not above or below. It is just the understanding of how all these different clearings are related to each other and how the forest is feeding and giving and taking. That's another image. So it's not levels. It's more like... It's more like that. I think that's really a nice... Does the wisdom sort of feed somehow the unconscious? Do you say feed? Well, I would say wisdom, again, this wisdom is also compassion. Compassion, you could say, you could say compassion supports and loves the unconscious, and wisdom allows it. Wisdom is devoted to it. But the understanding of it, it's just the correct understanding of the unconscious and the conscious and how they relate to each other.

[72:46]

So wisdom has told us about this relationship. Wisdom has told us about karmic consciousness. And Buddha has told us Buddha is the understanding of unconscious-conscious interaction. That's what Buddha is. So in a way, the life of the unconscious is simultaneous with the life of wisdom. And the unconscious and the conscious, they're the contents. And not the contents, but they're the contents at peace and in harmony with each other. So I see the study as what allows the self to be less.

[73:54]

Less? Mm-hmm. And then what you said, the natural arising of the unconscious enter wisdom. And so when I'm pointing at it, so my focus has been on studying the self so that the self can be less, can be less adhesion there, less constriction, such that the unconscious can come through and wisdom can come through, as opposed to what I thought I heard you say, which was, wisdom said, well, if it can take me, I'll let it, I'll come through.

[74:55]

I still don't view, as I said, and unconscious as always being the bevel, and that it's my constrictions, it's my filters, it's my obscurations that are keeping that from presenting itself. Well, I think what you just said is true. Not one side is like that. The other side is also saying, you're not ready for me. Like if somebody goes to see a psychiatrist or doctor who's got addiction problems, the person says, you're not ready for this. You don't really realize how much you need this. So come back when you're more sincere. It's because of my constrictions that I'm not ready, but also on the other side, the other side is saying, you're not ready for this. Come back when you're ready. See, it's both sides. It's not just in one. Well, that's where the movies come from.

[76:02]

And that's where the movies come from. This drama. And you said less... I kind of feel like you mean less substantial. Yes. Not less, but just less stuck, less rigid, less substantial. And it's another way to say it is, it's not really less. It's that you wake up to that it is less substantial. It already is. And you study, you realize it's less substantial as I thought. But it isn't that your study makes it less substantial. your study takes your blinders off and you see, oh, it's not, yeah. My grandson says to me, what's your favorite animal? Humans. And then he said, well, humans aren't animals.

[77:08]

And I said, oh. And then he asked me again, what's your favorite animal? And I say, humans. And he says, humans are not animals. And over the years, he asked me, and I say, humans. And he starts to open to that. He's able to be a little bit more flexible and open to the possibility and also maybe talk to his mother. Yeah, they are. And also his little sister. I said to her little sister, I said, referring to her mother, I said, we were talking about her, I said, she's my daughter. And the granddaughter said, she's not your daughter, she's my mother. And I said, oh. You know, little by little she realized her mother is her mother, but her mother also is somebody's daughter and somebody's wife and somebody else's mother.

[78:10]

But when we're little, we really substantiate stuff very stringently. Our compassionate parents can gradually help us open up to the things that aren't so fixed and substantial as we thought. Yeah. Which is good. Leon. I would say someone Dr. I really don't know who I am, and that my self is something that my consciousness is not quite aware of, and is not fully aware of, and that if I can really get that, if I can really understand that, it will relieve me of the belief that my self acts in a very revile way, and that I should count on it.

[79:30]

to respond to certain events in the world, like I always had, I, as myself, may do that, because that's who myself is. What I believe myself about that is that freedom will come from that. Yeah. And I then have a chance to become something more than I have been to this point. Yes, right. You become a more beneficial event in the universe. And one thing I would sort of like to give you feedback on, and that is that I don't say that you should practice Buddhism. I don't say that you should. I don't even say you should want to. But I want to, and I want... Yeah. And I don't want you to think you should, I want you to want. And even if you shouldn't, I want you to want. So I'm not telling you you should be a Buddha.

[80:36]

I'm just telling you what I want you to be. But Buddha doesn't think you should be. And Buddha doesn't prefer for you to be Buddha. That's what I'm saying. And I don't either. But I still want you to be. That would be good to have 50 Buddhas here. But I don't prefer that. This is great. This is great. And I also have wishes. And I wish you have a wonderful dinner. Last night was good. I hope tonight's good, too. Thank you so much.

[81:13]

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