A room full of meditators produces a lot of shared cares. We're one big lump. Yes, like one big lump. No, I enjoy so much what you say that I'd like to start with discussion if it's okay with you. Yesterday afternoon I talked more than my fair share. Okay. Yes.

[01:06]

Yesterday you wrote a lot about the relationship between truthfulness and ignorance. So yesterday was a lot about the relationship of mindfulness and consciousness and awareness. And this morning we discussed the character or maybe the qualities of the way of character. This morning? Or just among yourselves? Yeah. And this character comes to me in a different way. On the one hand, it is the truthfulness And its character seems to me to be very changes.

[02:17]

The relationship changes? No, the character of awareness changes. And on the one hand, it does not allow an insight into consciousness. It doesn't allow the consciousness to have a control or insight into itself. On the other hand it's sometimes very patient towards consciousness because it picks up its requests like for example I want to wake up and it picks up its intentions and then fulfills those intentions. And it's much wider than consciousness in terms of its capacity, but seemingly not without dimension. Especially at the end, what Froschi said at the end, that the question is through and through, through and through, but ultimately also that the personality, the society, everything in being somehow manages to have possibilities and limits.

[03:37]

So particularly when you said that language permeates us very deeply, then my conclusion was that also society and the way we are acculturated sets us limitations, constraints and opportunities. So the question would be, if awareness picks up intentions, can it then not also be tainted, or can it also pick up negative intentions? And then a side question was whether there is a relation to storehouse consciousness, how that would relate. It's a snap.

[05:03]

I'll give you a one-word answer. Okay. Thank you very much for what you said. And I appreciate that you had a discussion earlier about it, in fact. Because, you know what, it would be interesting to me if you guys produced some kind of awareness psychology, awareness therapy. Because if you know each other and you meet together and we're here together, together you might come to a use of awareness in, as we're talking about it, in psychotherapy. Maybe we can close it now.

[06:15]

Some people seem to be freezing. Thank you very much. And it would interest me because my development of awareness as a term and a practice has developed, evolved through my practice. And I think that the idea and usefulness would develop and evolve through using it in psychotherapy.

[07:17]

Now, I imagine if I was a psychotherapist, I would... discover things about the boundaries or lack of boundaries, awareness and so forth in the process of doing therapy. In some senses, I mean, Dzogchen looks similar to psychotherapeutic encounter. But it's actually conceptually quite different. Some people don't know what the word doksan means. It means the meeting between the student and the teacher. And the word literally means to go alone. to see the teacher.

[08:28]

Now, the danger with such a term as awareness, which has a multiple... manifests in various ways and then has multiple definitions, It can become where you dump everything that you can't explain by consciousness. So that has to be tested. You have to clean out the dump every now and then and say, is this really... the way it works in therapy or in Zen practice. So that's an introduction to what you said.

[09:29]

Now tell me again, is there a question in the middle of that you'd like me to respond to? So the middle question was, can it also be tainted? Yeah, that's a very good question. That's actually a distinction between Buddhist schools, whether it can or can't. No, we would have to really make that, if we were interested in making the distinction between the Buddhist schools clear, we'd have to define awareness more specifically. But in any case, the essence of the question is, is awareness an untainted Buddha mind, or is it somewhere between consciousness and an untainted Buddha mind?

[10:50]

The question is, is the being a muddied spirit of Buddha, or is it somewhere between the consciousness and a muddied spirit of Buddha? A muddied spirit. A muddied spirit. This sounds pretty bad. I don't want a pair of schmutz guys. A little schmutz goes a long way. Oh, geez. I don't like the idea that something is untainted. I think it's an idealism.

[12:10]

From one's personal experience, I would say, yes, awareness can be sometimes untainted, but then noticing that, you release that. You release yourself from that. Oh, dear. Yeah. But I would like to see if before lunch I can speak about something. And if I can, I will try to present how awareness itself develops into something close to being untaintable.

[13:12]

That's hard to do. I mean, I have a feeling I throw something up in the air. And then I see if it's there and then I let it drip down and see if it gets you wet or not. I don't know. Yes, but I haven't given up yet. or what can also be called negative influences, are severe traumatizations, such as being buried in war or stuck in an accident or something like that, so very massive influences that threaten the whole human being, so to speak.

[14:36]

I like the way you talk with your whole body. So she adds to that question, and the question is whether interruptions or dysfunctions in awareness might not have to do with deep traumatic events like war or car accident or something like that. And with that, we'd also be very close to the topic of psychotherapy, which is about suffering and distortions and negative, whatever we call negative influences. Well, this is related, as you said, to so-called storehouse consciousness, which is really about... I don't know what word to use. It's really about energy, not about contents.

[15:40]

Now, there's a parallel idea within the teaching of when Alaya Vijnana, through mirror wisdom, is purified of all negative seeds of karma. Again, this is a nice idea. But we really have to test it in our own practice. Is it actually how we function? You guys are corralling me into talking about this before I want to. Yes. So I'm a little confused about awareness now because the way I experienced or thought about awareness is that it's something that's beyond duality.

[16:50]

And being tainted or being pure is a kind of duality. Well, first I'd say awareness is not beyond duality. Let's not make it ideal. It's just something that's part of our experience. I suppose if I can put an intention into awareness to wake up at 6.02, I can put an intention that's erroneous or dualistic into awareness. Erroneous? In error. Oh, in error. We don't want to turn

[18:08]

Awareness into some God-like mind or Buddha-like mind. In its... Maybe in some developed presence, but not as just we're born with. Perhaps as a kind of developed presence, but not as something with which we are born. Because the dreaming mind has many of the characteristics by which we define awareness. but we can certainly have tainted dreams. You're not believing me, I can tell you. You're not too happy with one thing.

[19:27]

Oh dear. Okay, what else? I'd like to have someone who hasn't said anything yet And there's a number of you, and you know who you are. Say something. Ich würde gerne, dass einer von denen, die noch nichts gesagt haben, jetzt was sagen, und ihr wisst, wer ihr seid. Ich würde gerne was zu der Diskussion in der Ebene tiefer hängen. Das ist mir alles sehr hoch. I would like to go a little deeper into the discussion. This is a little bit too high up for me. Not deeper, but lower. Lower, okay. More grounded. Okay. I always have difficulties when I hear the topic of Buddhist psychotherapy.

[20:32]

So, first of all, when I hear the topic Buddhism and psychotherapy, I have a strong resistance because my first impulse is to say, well, they don't have anything to do with each other. That's the first thing to accept. That's why there's an and in between them. But he says that Buddhism is a religion and psychotherapy is a science. He's saying that you think that psychotherapy is a religion and bullying... I just see the danger, I claim that psychotherapy as the basis of psychology is a science, as some of my colleagues say, and I also claim that Buddhism

[21:52]

that it is a religion, and in the form of the sender we encounter an even installed church, and that the two have nothing to do with each other. One is a church, with all its organization, hierarchy, which is a religion, and the other is a science that takes care of the people. So he says that even though some of his colleagues don't agree, he thinks that psychology and its foundations and psychotherapy are a science, first of all, and that Buddhism in the form of Zen is a religion even with an institutionalized church. And looking at that, I would like to look at the borderlines. Yes, the borderlines of this. So over lab we do have Buddhist techniques in meditation that are free from the religious institution or the church.

[23:26]

On the other hand, in psychotherapy there is a need for techniques to earn consciousness, to order, to clarify, and different Buddhist techniques, such as meditation, can be interesting. And on the other hand in psychotherapy there is the attempt to clear consciousness and to work with consciousness. And in this regard Buddhist techniques can be interesting and helpful. I also believe that meditation in different cases of psychotherapy can be counterproductive. But I also think that meditation and some forms of psychotherapy can be counterproductive. So as we said yesterday that children or teenagers should not be practicing. So you could say, there are psychotherapy situations, I think, where you have to say, now meditation is for you, as I said, it's simply not up to you, but first of all it would be important not only to look at the feelings introspectively, but also to take them out, to push them out.

[25:11]

So in psychotherapy, a lot of times there will be situations where you have to say meditation is not what's up for you right now, but we would have to with the social sphere. But then we would have to first of all really observe the emotions or look at the emotions and to express them and to enact the emotions. In order to integrate the personality and, as Fritz Perls would say, to complete the Gestalt. So, In my discussions with Zyulandis, a psychotherapist, we often come to the question of when can I do this, when can I give a patient...

[26:22]

the application to meditate, and from then on, from the point of view of the psychotherapist, it may even be shown to him to say, don't do that, but first take care of the development of your ego, of your personality, integrate that, and then you can So what is the point at which I as a psychotherapist can tell a person that meditation is a good option, or when is it really more indicated to not have the person meditate but to really develop his ego or his personality? Well, for me, the prerequisite of what I say is that I often experience that things are mixed up, you know, such as buddhism, psychotherapy, you know, Abraham Maslow, extended psychotherapy, and it can all be very mixed up, yes.

[27:31]

So the basis of what I'm saying is my experience of these things being too... Wishy-washy. Yeah. I didn't know that was a German word. So I would like to stay with the division of the categories. There are the res extensa, the res cogitans and the res contemplativa. And I really want to separate the categories. And I would like to... The res contemplativa, which for me belongs to gentrism, not to mix with the res cogitans, which for me belongs to psychology, philosophy and so on. And I would like to keep the categories of res cogitans, res contemplativa, to keep those separated and to not... To keep what separated? The categories of, how do you call it in English, res cogitans? It's Latin. Like in Wilbur, putting out the things you know in your mind by the origin of philosophy.

[28:39]

separate from legislative science, different laws, enriches religion, meditation. And I want to keep the categories apart, mainly not to become unclear. Okay. Well, before I respond to the latter part of what you said, does anybody want to speak to what Harold said? Before I answer the last part of what he said, does anyone else want to say something about what Harald said? I think you are mixing it at the very moment when you say don't go to church because you will shift from therapy to... Yes, as a therapist.

[29:40]

If it's separate, you can't do it. If it's one, then you can do it. Can you repeat what the middle part of what you said? What he says is, if he says from a psychotropic frame, don't go to church, that is, don't meditate, don't do anything, then it's mixed. Yeah. So when you, from a psychotherapeutic point of view, you say, don't go to church, that is the moment when he's mixing it, you know, from... Yeah. I do this very often in therapy hours, that I talk to the person or talk to them for a very short time. And I had talked to Roshi about this before, that, for example, psychiatrists also learn meditation for a very short time. And I don't think it's a mix, but it is very clear at this moment that there is silence, that there is generally no therapy. At this moment the person gets an idea that there is something different than life and problems and it can be very short.

[30:47]

And I think this change is very important, that it is spread so that you don't have to meditate for hours to meditate, but that it can sometimes be a break from three breaths or three minutes, that it is clearly mentioned. She has introduced the practice of having even psychotic people just meditate for a very brief time, maybe for three minutes, so that it's clear this is not psychotherapy, but it's just for the person to get an idea that there can be something else, so very brief. For me, that would be on the level of what you can do with children. What is completely harmless, completely relaxed, conscious, mainly Sankacho. That is what you can do with children for me without danger. I completely agree with that. Well, I would completely agree with that. You can even do it with children without any danger. I don't mean to reply to Norbert that the therapist says don't go to church.

[31:49]

But that a therapist can get someone from a, not a two-minute meditation, but a two-hour-a-day meditation, if the personality is not strong enough and has a tendency to split the world. But then a psychotherapist should probably tell a person to not meditate for, say, two hours a day when the personality is not stable and there's the danger of the personality to dissociate. Yeah, I understand. That's a big problem, I think. Because some personalities seek instinctively ...möglichkeiten wie Meditation, um sich da rein zu flüchten. Das ist eine der Möglichkeiten der Flucht oder der Abwehr. because some personalities will seek particularly meditation out in order to escape, to run away from the problems.

[32:59]

That's one of the dangers. I understand. Andrea? I think that we all agree that there are cases like that, and that, like any other form, one form is to escape, and that is very in the moment. That's just so clear. But for me it's somehow about something completely different, and this psychotherapy of awareness has really touched me, and I thought, well, I'm somehow researching after that, and I would like to bring an observation with me. May I? So I agree and what really was interesting for me was that the idea of psychotherapy of awareness and I'd like to include one observation I make. And it has to do with the encounter, the meeting.

[34:04]

And that is one basic way for me to look at this therapeutic situation. And that is the shift for me from a social space into a space of awareness. For me that is a shift from internally leaning back and I'm not starting to do something but I actually cease to do something. And then a space is created that simply connects to the space of the other and also gives him the possibility

[35:24]

And then a space appears that also enables the patient or the client to step into this field of awareness. But, for example, that only I bring something into consciousness out of the field, or that both do that, or that we also let that be at all and only move in this field and... And then there are various ways of working with that. One, for example, being that it's only me bringing something from consciousness into… No, from awareness into consciousness. Oh, from awareness. Or that we not do any of this, neither one of us. Yeah, maybe that's enough. Okay. Oh yes, someone hasn't said anything, I have to call on you.

[36:38]

then I would exclude experiences from my clients. I would bring in a structure that is not so separate from the client and from me. This means that maybe I work more with a client on the level of consciousness, and then there are clients who make very strong experiences, who go in the direction of being true, and if I can follow that person, So for me this is a kind of continuum, and if I now... What, between Buddhism and...? Continuum between what and what? Yeah, Buddhism and psychotherapy or awareness and consciousness. And if now I put a structure on top of it where things are separated, then I can't work as fully with the person, but it's more if I can follow a person from, say, consciousness into awareness, then that gives me a fuller sense of how to work with that person.

[38:10]

Yeah, and the experiences are much fuller, her own way, just what the person and our interaction needs now. I want to go one step lower. So you're not telling the patient to transcend the cataclysm? But the psychotherapists are not very clear about what they are doing. And the problem is that most psychotherapists are not very clear about what they are doing. Okay, so we should take a break in a few minutes. Phil, let me... What?

[39:11]

We don't have to take a break. You know, as far as... I think almost everything you said, I agree with Harold. But I don't agree with the conceptual framework. For me, Buddhism is definitely not a religion. It certainly has a religious, psychologically and emotionally and societally, it is a religion in Asia. Sometimes in the West. But it's an Asian, it's not a religion in Asia. It's an Asian type religion, not a Western type religion. In general, there aren't sharp boundaries of belief.

[40:19]

A Chinese person can be about five different religions and not find any problem. Mm-hmm. So it's a way of being more than a way of thinking or something like that. And at the core of Buddhism, I don't think it's a religion. And a lot of the... that the more serious Zen masters, Zen teachers in Japan, they don't want to do ceremonies, they don't want a congregation. They just want to practice with people. But the bread and butter is in the ceremonies. That's how they support themselves. But Bob Thurman, you know Bob Thurman? Bob Thurman, he's professor of religion at...

[41:19]

In Columbia University, he was the Dalai Lama's first disciple, Western disciple. Bob Thurman was a professor at the University of Columbia and was the first Western disciple of the Dalai Lama. He also happens to be the film star Uma Thurman's father. Really? He is also the father of Uma Thurman. I knew it. It was true. No, she's a big girl. Anyway... So Bob and I both agree that Buddhism chose very early on to take the institutional protection of religion and monastic life, but it's like how you get along in society, but really it's a much more tiny research institute inside the framework of, you know. And also, you know, want to say any of that? No. and um For me anyway, I'm not a psychotherapist, but psychotherapy to me seemed like a craft and a practice more than a science for sure.

[43:03]

I mean, certain aspects are rooted in pharmaceutical science or rooted in research by psychologists. Anyway, but that's just my view. I started out, the beginning of the seminar was saying that I really think what we should emphasize is the differences between Buddhism and psychology. I'm quite adamant in saying there's no Buddhist psychology. There could be Buddhist therapy. Now the last part of what you said, yes, not only is it not good to recommend meditation to everyone, And including healthy people.

[44:19]

But there's a lot of discussion within the teaching of Buddhism of when you introduce teachings even to completely healthy people, because they can be, you know, various problems. And the simplest and biggest distinction I would make in people who come to practice is probably borderline people shouldn't practice. True. They don't fit into most of the psychotherapies. They don't either. Anyway, so that's enough. And when we come back, we talk about maybe relationship. As Andrea asked me to.

[45:34]

Or meet it.

[45:35]

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