Good evening. I've been sick these days, but I did make it here. I'm not feeling so good yet, so I may need to end early tonight, like end at 8.30, depending on how I'm feeling. That's OK. I've been in bed and sick. Just have a cold, yes. What time is the break? Boy, let's do 810. Yeah. Yeah, well, let's see at 810 and kind of do the I have some hot tea here.

[01:04]

I think there were some announcements. We're having tomorrow during afternoon zazen, we're going to be discussing the aspects of practice pretty similar to how we did on Monday morning. And then, Alan, did you have another announcement? Okay. Um, all right.

[02:06]

So the topic for tonight, I mean, we having this aspects of practice on the ancestors and the topic for tonight is Dogen. And, um, unfortunately it's Dogen. I, um, would have preferred to do another ancestor actually. Um, no, it's good. It's Dogen, but, uh, The reason I selected Dogen, I mean, we were talking about which ones we were going to do and then who was going to do what and so on. And I had been studying the Shobogenzo, so I said, well, what the heck, I'll do Dogen. But one thing is to read the Shobogenzo, another one is to teach the Shobogenzo. So it's very lofty and impenetrable.

[03:09]

So it can drive you to desperation, you know, to try to understand it or not understand it. And although he does tell us here and there that maybe actually not understanding is better than understanding. But doing can be kind of like a barrier. Some people say it's like a barrier for the student to kind of have to break through. So I thought, well, I'm not going to delve straight into the Shabugin. So I tried doing a little bit of that during the talk I gave during Sashin and didn't feel quite right to me. So I thought I would start. And also, you know, I used other references. We have this very good reference, which is Moon in a Dew Drop, that we're all familiar with, and we sell it in our bookstore.

[04:15]

And it has some of the more accessible fascicles of Dogen. It also has his biography there. And then Mel suggested the the Sui Monkey, which is sort of more his informal talks, kind of evening talks to his monks. And I read some of them. Some of them are interesting, but some of them also felt to me a little bit more appropriate to the circumstances that they were dealing with at that time. as we were talking about 800 years ago in Japan, you know, talking a lot about what the right attitude is towards livelihood and what kind of robes the monks wear and how teared down they are and how they should feel about whether they have good robes or bad robes or

[05:25]

and where they have food to eat, and what they should expect. And basically he's telling them that, you know, they use the word fate there, which is one that, you know, Sojin usually makes a distinction between destiny and fate. Fate is kind of fated, whereas destiny you have something to do with the course of one's karma, no? But basically that livelihood and the satisfaction of need is a question of fate. So all they have to do is just concentrate on practice. And then food will arrive of its own accord. Food on the plate, so to speak. So a lot of it also is focused on instructions and stressing the importance of zazen. So one of the questions about Dogen is why Dogen?

[06:29]

And well, Dogen is the founder of our school in Japan. He was born in 1200 and he brought the Soto school from China to Japan and he brought it at a time where really there wasn't a big stress on Zazen in Japanese Buddhism. Buddhism had already been in Japan for about 600 years. And there were a lot of other things going on in Buddhism other than Zazen. Although one thing that the different schools of Buddhism had in common was that they were all looking for a kind of single vehicle. to convey the whole teaching of the Buddha. And of course, there's always an exception to the norm, and that's also something that Dogen is always emphasizing.

[07:39]

One day he preaches the rule, the next day he preaches the exception to the rule. That's his kind of style, and it has to do with his way of expressing non-duality. And the Tendai school, which is the one that he was first ordained under in Japan, did several practices. They did Zazen, and they did study of scripture, and they did chanting. but it wasn't a single focus on Zazen. And that came to be his sort of the hallmark of his teaching was to emphasize Zazen as the main practice. Although, you know, in our practice, we also during service, we transmit the merit of Zazen, we get up

[08:42]

from Zazen and do service and transmit the merit of the practice to everyone. And so we do some chanting there. We also do Bodhisattva ceremony, which is something that the ceremony of repentance was something that the Logan's teacher in China was not in favor of doing. because he really was emphasizing, the Soto school was really emphasizing zazen as opposed to spending a lot of time doing ceremonies and chanting and that kind of practice. But we also do the Bodhisattva ceremony, which is the ceremony of repentance. And we also study the sutras, but that's one of the things that I want to spend a little bit more time further on in the class in terms of how we approach this question of Zen being a teaching, a mind-to-mind transmission.

[09:53]

And although Dogen's teacher in China, and Dogen himself, criticized the second part of that, which is mind-to-mind transmission outside the scriptures. There's no outside or inside the scriptures. It's just that in Zazen, you have the direct experience of the scripture. But anyway, a little bit about biography. So he was born in 1200 of the Common Era. His father died when he was three, and his mother died when he was eight. And so really that really marked his existence with a sense of impermanence. And that's common. We've talked about this before. A lot of Zen teachers have had major losses like that in early childhood, including Shakyamuni himself, whose mother died giving birth.

[11:04]

or shortly after birth. So he actually was ordained at age 13, which is very young. So he spent his adolescence as a monk. I wish my adolescence were monks. And so then he went to China when he was 23. So there's a kind of repetition of three, you know. Father died when he was three, ordained at 13, went to China at 23, and came back to Japan at 27. And then at 33, began the Shogo Genzo. which is his life's work, which is four volumes.

[12:13]

We have those in the library. And those were given to me by the Sangha for my ordination. So I had to study them. Much to my chagrin. And then at 46, he founded AAG. and finished the Shobo Genzo. He finished the Shobo Genzo the same year he founded Eheji. And then he died at 53. So a pretty young life, you know, 13 to 53, but pretty intensive life. So given that he was going to die at 53, you know, that he started at 13, gave him 30, 40 years of practice and teaching, and he began teaching pretty young. Then the Shobogenza was published for the first time in, for the first time, okay?

[13:18]

The Shobogenza was published in 1816. So for 600 years, just, Buddhism had been in Japan for 600 years before Dogen. And then after Dogen for 600 years, the Shobugenzo was like, not studied, not widely studied. And then people came to recognize it as, you know, the Japanese now are very proud of the Shobugenzo. And Dogen's thought is the most important Japanese thinker even outside Buddhist circles. And his prose and his poetry is very beautiful also, so he's also a great writer. And then he was published in English for the first time in 1983. So at the time of Dogen, you know, the

[14:19]

Buddhism, some people consider Buddhism was in decline in Japan after these 600 years. And the priests were selling prayers and ceremonies to the upper classes. And then the monasteries had monks who were armed and who were soldiers and warriors. So a lot of people were considering this a moment of decline of the Dharma, this era of decline of the Dharma. So in this kind of desperation around what was happening with Buddhism at that time, a lot of people were turning towards the belief in Amitabha, the savior Buddha. and turning to the practice of chanting Buddha's name.

[15:28]

And this was led by Honen and Shinran. And it was sort of chanting to be born in the pure land. And then Nichiren established the practice of chanting the title of the Lotus Sutra. And all these practices had one thing in common also, not only were they a kind of a response to the decline of Buddhism, but were also a response to saying, Zazen is too hard. it's too difficult for people to practice Zazen. And Zazen, and this is part of, sort of a branch of the Mahayana, although Zen is also Mahayana, but in the spirit of the Mahayana, of making the practice and the teaching of Buddhism more accessible to the laity and to a wider group of people, as opposed to the small group of Arahats, you know, doing the hard practice.

[16:37]

So I think this was seen as kind of a natural expression of the Mahayana teaching. So this was a response to the decline of Buddhism, but Dogen's response was to say, was to emphasize Zazen. And therefore this, so there's two things about that. One is that he transmitted the practice of Zazen to us, we could say, that thanks to him we practice Zazen here. And then also that gives him a little bit of a kind of this fanatical fervor that he has in his writing, sometimes kind of making distinctions and putting other schools down and saying this is the only way and so on and so forth. Gives him a little bit of dogmatic tendencies at times because of the cultural context of the time that he was trying to establish the practice of Zazen in Japan.

[17:41]

And it also seems that his tone changed over time. And if we have time, I'll show you sort of the differences in the kind of early Dogon and how he writes, particularly with respect to lay practice. He's very affirmative of lay practice at the beginning. And then at the end, he becomes very negative about lay practice and emphasizes, you know, monastic monk practice. Okay, so he was ordained when he was 13, and in the Tendai school of Buddhism. And then he did a lot of scripture study in the Tendai school. And he was kind of haunted by this question of why if everybody has the Buddha nature, why do people seek enlightenment?

[18:51]

Or why do we practice? And this kind of why do people seek enlightenment and why do we practice eventually become part of his teaching of practice enlightenment as being the same thing. So in the Tendai school, they recognized his sincerity and his potential. So they pointed him in the direction of a Tendai monk who had been to China. and who had been to China to try to study Buddhism in China and to try to kind of strengthen the Tendai school in Japan. And this monk had studied with the Rinzai school in China, which apparently at that time was the more dominant or more prevalent school of Zen in China.

[19:56]

And then after this person died, he continued studying with his disciple, Miaozhen. And then with Miaozhen, Dogen went to China himself. And then there he visited several monasteries. And in the Tenzo Kyokan, we have the story of how he, you know, met some of the Tenzos in the monasteries and learned the about the continuity of Zazen and ordinary life and practice. Because, you know, first he had really studied the scriptures. Then he kind of discovered Zazen, the importance of Zazen. But then he had to kind of get to the next stage, which is understanding the relationship between zazen and ordinary life, or universal activity, or the activity of the universe.

[21:08]

And some of the tensos taught Dogen this, and we see that in the tenso kyokun. But he studied for about two years with different Rinzai groups, and he didn't like Cohen's study so much. And it seemed to him that these Zen groups or schools were emphasizing illogical phrases and behavior as the way to express Zen teaching, and that they were ignoring the meaning of the Buddhist scriptures. So there we see a kind of, although, you know, Darwin himself, if you read him, sounds quite illogical in many places, himself. So then after two years of studying with different people there, and he was kind of discouraged and he was going to go back to Japan.

[22:18]

And he didn't feel he had found an authentic teacher. He found Rujing. And another monk had told him that Rujing was the only authentic teacher in China. So he met Rujing and apparently immediately they had this very strong meeting. And he said, you know, Let me read it to you. Upon this occasion, he transmitted Dharma finger to finger, face to face, and said to me, the Dharma gate of face to face transmission from Buddha to Buddha, ancestor to ancestor, is realized now. So this sounds like a face to face transmission right in the first meeting. So often in a lot of the stories, there is this kind of initial transmission and kind of mutual realization between teacher and student.

[23:22]

And it sounds like it's like the end, but it's really the beginning. It's just, this is just the starting point. But because of the teacher, this is part of the teaching of beginner's mind, the beginning is the end. and the end is back to the beginning. So this is kind of like in Zen, you know, we jump into the middle of the ocean, right, into the depth. But it's also like Rujing recognized, the teacher is able to recognize something in the student. So he recognized Dogen right at the first meeting. So Ruijin was a priest of the Soto school in China. And he was against sort of formalities.

[24:26]

He didn't like to wear fancy robes. People used to wear all these kind of fancy robes, and he wasn't into the fancy robes and the kind of paraphernalia. And he was so extreme that he even forbade his students from being intimate with kings and ministers. So he probably, you know, I don't know how well they thrived if they weren't in contact with kings and ministers, you know. It's like usually it's those connections with the politicians, you know, the Jerry Browns and whatnot, you know, that brings all the, brings a lot of, support, financial and otherwise, to the Sangha. But he didn't want his students to be relating to the politicians. And he also, he didn't think there were all these different schools of Zen and said there's only one

[25:33]

There's only one Buddhism, and he didn't even like using the word Zen. He didn't want to call it Zen. And sort of Dogen acquired all those characteristics, because Dogen also didn't like to use, he never used the word Soto, and he wasn't so keen on using the word Zen either. So, and he also didn't like the distinction between Mahayana and Hinayana. And I think towards the end of his life, when he emphasized much more sort of the monastic aspect of practice, he became very, what would be the right word, supportive of the Arhat. So he thought that the distinction between Mahayana and Hinayana was just a question of the time and what the different ages need to emphasize.

[26:40]

And also Rujing said the Zen teaching was not a separate transmission outside the scriptures. And Ruijin taught the Shikantaza, Just Sitting. And it's the school of silent illumination, which kind of contrasts with the critique of the Soto school and the Rinzai school, is that the Rinzai school is trying too hard to attain enlightenment. They're really striving, trying to solve these koans and zazen, striving for enlightenment. Whereas in the Soto school, we kind of poo-poo the striving towards enlightenment. If you turn towards it, you turn away from it. And the Rinzai school criticizes the Soto school for being quietistic.

[27:51]

You say it in English? Quietistic. That's a good word. Quietistic. Yeah, sort of being attached to calmness. But actually calmness in the Diamond Sutra, calm mind is not abiding. So we don't really get attached to calm mind either. We don't abide in calmness because stillness is within activity and activity is within stillness. So the quiet, quietistic or quietism is sort of breaking the relationship between stillness and movement. Anybody want to say anything or have a question so far?

[28:58]

Yes? I'm not sure exactly how old he was when he wrote it, but it's based on his, you know, travels to China. And I can tell you when he went to China. So it's more like from his early period when he was more interested in lay practice and interested in... No, no, because that doesn't have to do with lay practice, because that's also monastic practice. But it has to do with practice outside the Zen Do and that sort of thing? Right. Well, that's the thing. I think a lot of us who are lay practitioners, well, speaking for myself as a lay practitioner, I always use that as the most helpful teaching, because it's about doing something very practical.

[30:02]

Right, but there's the ordinary life of monks, and then there's the ordinary life of lay people. And the key difference is when Dogen stresses living family life. I see. So that's what he was... Yes. Ellen. Right. Are you giving me the signal?

[31:04]

In your research, did you find out why his work was held back for 600 years? There was a revealing feeling that it was just not accessible to people? Yeah, I don't know. I imagine that, you know, I mean, I think for him, he would have been happy if, as long as the practice of Zazen, that was the most important thing, the practice of Zazen, to be transmitted and continued, you know, from generation to generation. But maybe, you know, people didn't it's not very accessible. So, and I don't know, you know, what, what means of copying was, you know, at that time also that might play a part, you know.

[32:16]

Okay. Okay. Let me just, Let me see, where are we? Okay, let me just finish with this and then we'll take a break. The break would have been at 8.15 anyway, Ross, right? Yes. Okay. So after he came back to Japan, he wasn't very welcomed and the attendant school was against these schools of Buddhism who were trying to emphasize one particular form of practice like Zazen. So let me read you what he said. I came back to Japan with a hope of spreading the teaching and saving sentient beings.

[33:28]

a heavy burden on my shoulders. However, I will put aside the intention of having the teaching prevail everywhere until the occasion of a rising tide. I think of wandering about like a cloud or a waterweed, studying the wind of the ancient sages." So if he couldn't, he was just going to be a wandering monk, or be a hermit, or a Pacheco Buddha. you know, who practices zazen on his own if he couldn't establish a sangha. But little by little he was able to, you know, establish a temple and then wrote the Bindoa which was his first writing, which is translated, On the Endeavor of the Way.

[34:30]

And I want to read a little bit of that, but maybe after the break. So we just get up. I'm going to read a little bit of the Bindoa, just where he talks about the truth of Buddha ancestors or his understanding of how the mind of Shakyamuni Buddha, it's transmitted from generation to generation in Zazen. And then there's a section of the Bindoa where people ask him questions. And I'm going to focus on a few of the questions, which have to do with Zazen. And then, since we don't have a lot of time, I'm going to, I asked Baika outside whether we'd be better to focus on his understanding of Zazen and the study of scripture, or on the question of lay practice.

[35:43]

the vote was for the question of lay practice. So that's what I'm going to focus on. And there's more personal references there that may make it more interesting for you. And, okay, so let me read this first. So this is from the Bindoa. It says, all Buddha Tathagatas who directly transmit inconceivable Dharma and actualize supreme perfect enlightenment have a wondrous way unsurpassed and unconditioned. Only Buddhas transmit it to Buddhas without veering off. Self-fulfilling Samadhi is its standard. Sitting upright, practicing Zen is the authentic gate to the unconfined realm of this Samadhi. Although this inconceivable Dharma is abundant in each person, it is not actualized without practice, and it is not experienced without realization.

[36:57]

When you release it, it fills your hand. How could it be limited to one or many? When you speak it, it fills your mouth. It is not bounded by length or width. All Buddhas continuously abide in it, but do not leave traces of consciousness in their illumination. Sentient beings continuously move about in it, but illumination is not manifest in their consciousness. So all beings have the Buddha nature, but without practice, they can't realize it. But he also stresses that it's important to arrive at the truth without realizing it. So this is in another similar passage but written much later in the Shobugenzo on realization.

[38:08]

So to be it, so you can be it without realizing it. And this is how Buddhas and sentient beings are not one, not two. Or what Buddha said that when he became enlightened, the whole universe became enlightened. Ko? So how can you be it without don't you feel or have awareness of your enlightenment? Some people, no, because it's, he says, well, he says, what does he say? Oh, Buddha's continuously abiding in it, but do not leave traces of consciousness in their illumination. It's not self-consciousness.

[39:26]

There's no self-consciousness. So this is like, you know, being one undivided activity or being one with activity. You're not thinking about the activity, you're immersed in it. And therefore you're actualizing the fundamental point, which is the Genja Koan. Well, we also have to realize realization. We all experience realization, whether we realize it or not. Sometimes, you know, it's like sometimes you're walking down the street, you know, and there's a moment of contact with somebody.

[40:36]

You're open, they're open. You smile, they smile, you know. That's a moment of realization. but you're not thinking about realization of that moment. There's just a call and a response. And the other person, their being is awakened also, but they're not thinking, oh, my being is awakening now. Right, and like we're talking about it now, isn't life a reflection later? Isn't our lives a reflection of that? spontaneous. Yes. Right. So we reflect, um, we reflect on realization and he actually says that, um, reflect on realization, but what is that reflection?

[41:38]

You know, because this realizing realization, it's not, it's not, um, it's not an object of knowledge. So usually consciousness, awareness of an object, is through cognition. Whereas this, this is a different kind of process. So it's not an object because it was, for example, if you're talking about meeting somebody on the street and this openness just happens between the two of you, you wouldn't call that an object? Well, there's a point of, there's a point of contact there. between a subject and an object, but in such a way that they both disappear. So there's no object in that sense?

[42:43]

Well the point I was trying to make was, or that he's making here, sentient beings, buddhas don't leave trace of consciousness in their illumination. And sentient beings continuously move about in it, but illumination is not manifest in their consciousness. It's hard to say, isn't it? So now to the questions. So the first one, we have now heard that the merit of Zazen is lofty and great. But an ignorant person may be doubtful and say, there are many gates for Buddha Dharma. Why do you recommend Zazen exclusively? Fair enough. A fair question. And the answer is, because this is the front gate for Buddha Dharma.

[44:02]

Why do you regard Zazen alone as the front gate? Answer, the great master Shakyamuni correctly transmitted the splendid method of attaining the way, and Tathagatas of the past, future, and present all attained the way by doing Zazen. For this reason, it has been transmitted as the front gate. Not only that, but also all ancestors in India and China have attained the way by doing Zazen. Thus, I now teach this front gate to human beings and divas. Okay, it's kind of self-explanatory, but... Okay, so let me look for where he talks about lay practice.

[45:09]

Okay, so this is a first, this is from the Bindoa. It says, should zazen be practiced by lay men and women, or should it be practiced by home leavers alone? The answer is, the ancestors say, in understanding Buddha Dharma, men and women, noble and common people, are not distinguished. Question. Home leavers are free from various involvements and do not have hindrances in zazen in pursuit of the way. How can the laity, who are variously occupied, practice single-mindedly in accord with Buddha Dharma, which is unconstructed? Answer. Buddha ancestors, out of their kindness, have opened the wide gate of compassion in order to let all sentient beings enter realization.

[46:12]

Who among humans and heavenly beings cannot enter? If you investigate olden times, the examples are many. To begin with, Emperors Daizong and Shunzong had many obligations on the throne. Nevertheless, they practiced Zazen in pursuit of the Way and penetrated the Great Way of Buddha ancestors. Ministers Li and Fang both closely served their emperors, but they practiced Zazen in pursuit of the Way and entered realization in the Great Way of Buddha ancestors. This just depends on whether you have the willingness or not. It does not matter whether you're a lay person or a home leaver. Those who can discern excellence invariably come to this practice. Those who regard worldly affairs as a hindrance to Buddha Dharma only think that there's no Buddha Dharma in the secular world and do not understand that there is no secular world in Buddha Dharma. So mind is the world.

[47:21]

Recently, there was a high official of great song, Minister Feng, who was advancing the ancestors' way. He once wrote a poem concerning himself I enjoy zazen between my official duties and seldom sleep lying on a bed. Although I appear to be a minister, I am known as a Buddhist elder throughout the country. Although he was busy in his official duties, he attained the way because he had a deep intention toward the Buddha way. Considering someone like him, you should reflect on yourself and illuminate the present with the past. In Song China, kings and ministers, officials, and common people, men and women, kept their intention on the ancestors' way. Both warriors and literary people aroused the intention to practice zazen and study the way. Among those who aroused their intention, many of them illuminated their mind ground. From this you know that worldly duties do not hinder the Buddha dharma. Let me repeat that one. From this you know that worldly duties do not hinder the Buddha dharma.

[48:34]

If the Buddha's true teaching is spread widely in the nation, the rule of the king is peaceful because all Buddha's endeavors are protected unceasingly. If the rule is peaceful, the Buddha's teaching gains power. When Shakyamuni Buddha was alive, even those who committed serious crimes or had mistaken views attained the way. In the assemblies of ancestors, hunters and woodcutters attained realization. If it is so for them, it is so for others. You should just seek the teaching of an authentic master. That's pretty clear and supportive of lay people practicing Dazen. And then the later Dogen, he has two fascicles, one on leaving family life and the other one on the merit of leaving family life. And here he says,

[49:36]

None has succeeded to the right action of the Buddhadharma, and none has received the authentic transmission of the great truth of the Buddhadharma without leaving family life. Notwithstanding scant pursuit of the truth by laypeople, there is no past example of one arriving at the truth. Nevertheless, For the last two or three hundred years in the great kingdom of song, people calling themselves priests of the sense sect have habitually said, pursuit of the truth by a layman and pursuit of the truth by one who has left family life are just the same. They are a tribe of people who have become dogs for the sole purpose of making the filth and urine of lay people into their food and drink. Can't believe it, huh? He says, there are a tribe of people who have become dogs for the sole purpose of making the filth and urine of lay people into their food and drink. Do not sit with them and do not speak with them.

[50:38]

Even to become a monk who breaks the precepts and who has no precepts and who is without dharma and without wisdom may be better than possessing wisdom and keeping the precepts as a lay person. We can say that people who assert that it is unnecessary to leave family life commit a sin even heavier than the deadly sins, and they are more wicked than Devadatta. Devadatta tried to kill the Buddha. Do you not see that if old man Vimalakirti had left family life, we would be able to meet with the one more excellent than Vimalakirti, that is Vimalakirti Bhiksu? The silence of Vimalakirti and the silence of the Tathagata do not deserve even to be compared. You know, in the next fascicles, he quotes Nagarjuna.

[51:41]

But Nagarjuna is saying something like that there's an easy way and there's a difficult way. and that because the lay person has all sorts of jobs and duties and other responsibilities, so it's a conflict between duties. It's not a conflict between whether you feel like doing something or you don't feel like doing something, whether you're lazy or whether you're kind of hardworking at practice. It's a conflict between the worldly responsibilities and the responsibilities to the practice. So he says that the, Nagarjuna says the practice of a lay person is difficult, whereas the practice of the monk is easy because by leaving behind all the worldly preoccupations about, you know,

[52:52]

worries about money and you know, how are you gonna make ends meet, you know, and running around and having to keep appointments and deal with screaming children, you know, or unruly kids, you know, or people's problems in the world and all the drama. If you cut that off and you're unconcerned with that, then it's easier to maintain your wholehearted way to maintain your mind in a wholesome state. But, you know, the problem with this is that this assumes that the life of a monk in the Sangha is not without troubles. Right? we know now we know that people who also live in the monastery or who leave behind you know or don't have families reproduce the family problems in the sangha right so then we have to consider leaving family life as leaving the the family in our minds behind you know and all this

[54:19]

conflict that gets generated, whether between people at work, or between parents and children, or spouses. If it's not the conflict and the problems, the difficulties in the marriage, or between the parents and the children, then it's the problems between the Sangha brothers and sisters, between the different officers of the monastery, between the abbot and the students. So all these family problems still emerge. So it's hard to separate samsara and nirvana. Because if you leave samsara behind to enter into nirvana, then we discover that samsara is also within nirvana. So, but it's very interesting, you know, how at the beginning he sounds, he has a tone that actually is very compatible with our practice here.

[55:32]

And then he acquires a very different tone later on, as if he were kind of, you know, as if he had been disappointed in some way that late practice didn't actually lead to people attaining the way of the ancestors. So he, yes? Is there any evidence that, for the reason you're speculating, is there any evidence to say why he might have changed his mind? I haven't found any. I don't know if anybody knows. But at this point I think I'd like to open it up because it's, yes Ross? but they didn't have the ongoing lay practice as we have here now, and that maybe, again, this is a speculation, that the teaching is universal, that transcends gender, time, space, and whatnot, so of course it would be open to lay people.

[57:04]

And maybe there's a level of frustration that, you know, these people just aren't getting it because they're not really practicing. Right. No, I think you're right. I actually, before I wrote, before I read, I actually read the Shobo Genzo part first. You know, and then I read the, I mean, Bindo is also Shavuot Genzo, but it's the first fascicle. And I read that one second. And when I had just read the first one, I thought what you were saying, that he just, he was just considering lay practice as the practice of observing the precepts.

[58:08]

And he was not considering lay practices, lay people doing Zazen. But then when I read the first section, then it sounded like he was really, you know, because he's really encouraging people to do Zazen, and then he was really encouraging lay people to do Zazen. So maybe what happened is that he became disillusioned rather than disappointed, that lay people could not hold the continuity in the practice of Zazen, even though with all the encouragement that he gave them, And to do this, that they couldn't maintain it, the consistent practice. And of course, that's different for us because we've been able to maintain it so far for a long time, even though it's just a little piece of time in the scale of eternity. Alan? Well, it's interesting. But what makes me think of some of you, if any of you have practiced in Thich Nhat Hanh's community, at a certain point about 10, 15 years ago, all of a sudden the lay people started seeing that what he was really about was creating a monastic community.

[59:48]

And it was very shocking because it seemed like two statuses. He wasn't as radical or as cutting as Dogen here, they began to see, you know, Dogen, the first Bhen-du-wa was written before he had set up a formal monastic practice. And then he said, he created two sotos, you know, one in the middle and then in the middle. And it just seemed like his perspective, what he was about, was different. You know, it was like, how to transmit the dharmas of the state. And I think it's like, sort of by definition, and that's what he began to feel maybe was the real practice that was necessary in order to plant the seed of Zen deep enough so that it would last. But I just don't know, I can't reconcile this to, it's just like two shifts.

[60:53]

Right, I guess. I guess we are the reconciliation of it. Yeah, I think so. I think, if I think of my own life, like before I had a family, it seemed to me that the choice between having a family or not was like, you have to give up a lot if you choose monastic life. You have to give up things. But from the perspective now, it seems like it's really almost like the opposite. It's a lot of responsibility and it's very little leisure time. And when I think of what the Buddha created, it seems like so practical in a certain way. You could just see it as a very practical way to create a tremendous amount of leisure time, which is to be able to do this, meditate and study, you need some leisure time. And I guess we have it partly because of our

[61:58]

level of economic freedom or lifestyle or birth control or whatever. I'm going along with what everybody's saying. In the beginning he's talking about that lay people could become enlightened, but later you realize you don't have time. You're trying to, but It's hard. It's hard to create space. Yes. Thank you. This is a really fascinating evening. I'm thinking about the 600 years between Dogen and the publication of the Shobo Genzo, and that is a little mind-boggling. held the teaching, it was the practice of Heiji, without the Shogun, and it was monastic practice.

[63:07]

It was not lay practice, I think. Is that right? Mm-hmm. OK. Yeah. Well, Suzuki Hiroshi said to his students that they were neither monks nor lay people. So that probably describes us well. I mean, I'm not married anymore. I was married. So I left marriage, married life. You know, so in some way I left that kind of family life. And I must say, I like it better this way. For now, you know, just because we had a lot of conflict about my Zazen schedule. You know, it was really hard for her to, you know, it's understandable.

[64:09]

You get out of bed, you know, the alarm goes off, you know, putting the alarm and you're waking somebody else up who doesn't want to wake up at five in the morning, you know. So that creates conflict. And then, you know, being away on Saturday morning and being away on Sasheen's, you know. I mean, I thought that it was solvable. I said, well, you know, I'm just away these times, you know, and then you can go do, I don't know, whatever you want to do, you know. And I'll take care of the kids then, you know. But what about our time together, you know? But then the time together was kind of stressful. A lot of arguing, you know? So in a way, I don't have that stress.

[65:14]

But I have two kids, you know, that I'm raising. So that's family life, all right. And children, you have to put them first. You can't just... So that creates a kind of... There are a lot of Zen children going to therapists saying, my parents abandoned me. And the psychiatrists and the therapists call that benign neglect. That's the official term for a child who is raised by Zen parents. Benign neglect. So how not to be benignly neglectful of your children, and at the same time, practice the Buddhadharma and practice Zazen.

[66:18]

That's sort of the middle way, right? That's where the edge is for me, right there. So my kids are used to now, they're old enough, so they're used to, you know, I get up in the mornings, they don't care, you know, they just go. They don't have a problem with that. And then I have to come back and, you know, get them up for school and all that. But, you know, it's quite a schedule. It's quite a schedule. But, you know, you have to kind of, you know, I pace myself and I'm constantly pacing myself and reminding myself, you know, like when you go, okay, Zazen is at a certain time and you have to be here on time. So Zazen also has, you know, it's like a job, you have to be on your job on time, but with Zazen you also have to be on time. Otherwise, you wait there by the door, you know, until Roshi goes by, you know, late again.

[67:25]

But Roshi, I had to get ready for work before I came here. I wasn't sleeping away. Anyway, and then, you know, back get the kids ready, put them on the school bus, and then go to work. And then, so there's that space for the tension about being on time and just being on time, one thing after the next. And I have to constantly remind myself that I'm not coming from anywhere and I'm not going anywhere. Even though I'm coming from somewhere and I'm going somewhere, I'm really not coming from anywhere, and I'm not going anywhere. And it's just this. Just moment after moment. You know, it's like a session schedule. A session schedule is like that. You know, we got the whole day structured, you know?

[68:27]

It's all scheduled up. You got one thing after the next, you know? And all we do is just go, you know, Zazen and Kinyin and Zazen. then bathroom, coffee. And then dealing with the stuff in our mind, right? The annoyance about this person or that person and, you know, somebody said this and made you feel that, you know, and that kind of stuff. Anybody else would like to say anything more before we stop? Andrea, did you want to say something? Is it time, Ross? Shall we call it? Thank you.

[69:20]

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