Anyway, good evening, everyone. So, several of you were here at Ancient Dragon yesterday morning when Brooks of Porin spoke. And this is sort of a spinoff of that talk, I think. He talked about the Buddha nature of non-sentient beings, or he started off with that, which is kind of a Soto slogan, basic teaching. And then he took it in lots of directions that all matter and all time include life. or that there's no universe that can be discovered where there is not life. At any rate, I'm not gonna try and fully encapsulate all that Brook said. He's a magnificent Shintai scholar and many other things. I do recommend his talk. So when it's posted, please do check it out.

[01:02]

What I wanna talk about tonight is non-attainment, which is in some ways a practice or practical implication of what Breaux was talking about. So I'm going to start with an old story that Dogen repeats in his extensive record. Chantung Tawu asks, Shuto, what is the essential meaning of Buddha Dharma? So Shuto or Sekito in Japanese is one of our great ancestors, the song of the grass that we just chanted is by him as well as the harmony of difference and same as for Sando Kai. So here he is being asked, what is the essential meaning of Buddha Dharma? And, When I first came to Zen Center, my former teacher asked me to ask the Zen Center that question. And I can tell you later what the responses were.

[02:03]

Anyway, Shuto said, not attaining, not knowing. Not to attain, not to know. That was then followed up. Beyond that, is there any other pivotal point or not? And she just said, the wide sky does not obstruct the white clouds drifting. So that's a wonderful Zazen instruction. Openness or spaciousness does not obstruct all of the cloud thoughts, all of the word clouds that drift by, just as the wide sky does not obstruct all the white clouds that drift around, and vice versa. The clouds don't obstruct the wide sky either. So Dogen's brief comment, not to attain, not to know, is Buddha's essential meaning. The wind blows into the depths, then further winds blow.

[03:08]

So this is very important. Are the Buddha wind blows into the very depths, deep into our awareness. And then more winds blow. So another way to talk about not attaining or not knowing is not finishing. We never finish this practice. He says, Dogen says, the white sky does not obstruct the white clouds drifting. At that time, why do you bother to ask Shinto? So, this not attaining, not knowing is very deep. And it's sort of counterintuitive and certainly counters our consumerist attitudes about a lot of things. So there are spiritual practices or traditions or even branches of Zen where the goal

[04:12]

The whole purpose and point is to attain, to reach some attainment. And I think this is a common kind of human sense, too. We want to attain something. We want to get something. This is a consumerist culture. We want to acquire all the wonderful things that we can see on television commercials or wherever. And even spiritually, we think that there is something separate from us somewhere out there, up on some mountaintop or over in Japan or out in California. Attainment being my internet connection is unstable. Hopefully, it won't go away.

[05:14]

So this idea of non-attainment. It goes through from Chateau to Dongshan, who the official founder of Xiaodong, or the Chinese, who talks about the bird's path, not seeing any particular stages in the path. He talks about non-gaining, not attaining. And Dogen is talking about the two, and of course, Suzuki Roshi, after in America talked about not getting at it. So this not knowing is, it's about getting somewhere else. It's not finishing. It's about this practice realization. what to talk about and it's hard not to imagine that there's something somewhere someone's not here somewhere where everything will be wonderful you know

[06:41]

problems of our world, and each of our own problems will be solved. And, you know, we, it's, it's kind of common that people come to spiritual practice with some problem. Of course, we all have problems. The whole world has many problems, obviously. We think the point of spiritual practice is to solve problems. now actually think that explicitly, but somewhere there's some sense of that. So this not knowing, not even knowing what the problem is, or, you know, maybe Dogen says, you know, please explore this. We get to So I'll talk about this in another way, another... So Taigan, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but you're fading in and out your connection, at least from my end.

[07:58]

Is that true for everyone? Yeah. Yes. It might have something to do with the storm. Can you hear me now? Probably everything has something to do with the storm. Can you hear me now? Yes, that is actually better. It might help if you turn off your camera. Okay, I'll do that. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Thank you, Ogetsu. Should I go back and repeat some of that? I was talking about non-attainment and how this is such a deep quality of our consciousness is to want to get something. So this is not just our consumerist culture here in 20th century America, 21st century America, anyway. And so I was saying that there are traditions, spiritual traditions and

[09:03]

traditions, other branches of Zen, where there is very strong encouragement to get something, to attain something, to attain Kensho. Kensho is this idea of some special experience, but actually Kensho is just the way things is. In Japanese Rinzai, they talk about Kensho as a verb, to Kensho each thing, to see through the heart of each thing. Is the sound better now? Okay, so I started to read this other talk by Dogen. So I'll just read it. The family style of all Buddhas and ancestors is first to arouse the vow to save all living beings by removing suffering and providing joy. So this is our bodhisattva vow. He says only this family style is inexhaustibly bright and clear.

[10:10]

But I want to focus on the next part. In the lofty mountains, we see the moon for a long time. As clouds clear, we first recognize the wide sky. Cast loose down the precipice, the moonlight reflected in the streams shares itself within the 10,000 forms. So the point of our practice, just to continue, even when climbing up the bird's path, taking good care of yourself as spiritual power, Dogen says. So this is the function of not attaining, not knowing. It's not about some personal attainment or even group attainment. It's about how we, see the white sky or taste the white sky. We don't attain it, we don't know it, but so it kind of gets into our bones in zazen, you know, our practice of sitting upright.

[11:12]

Yeah, so we get some taste of it, we get some sense of it, but the point isn't to get that, attain that, acquire that. Again, our consumerist culture and our habit of consciousness of seeing things out there that we want to get, get in the way. So the point is to share our particular taste of the sky with everyone. So I want to have some discussion, but I want to, you know, I've thought about this excuse me can you hear okay yeah so thank you uh so um i want to share um well i was i started to say that i've thought about this non-entertaining not knowing as particularly as soto's and family style but actually goes much further so i can see

[12:22]

with my teacher attention, Rev. Anderson. And in this text, it quotes the Prajnaparamita Sutra, the long sutra, which is a basic sutra about emptiness. So I'll read this section from the sutra. If one practices the pure precepts without eagerly seeking some result from the precepts, This is known as not greedily seeking to use the precepts to obtain the objects of desire. I'll read that again. If one practices the pure precepts without eagerly seeking some result from the precepts, this is known as not greedily seeking to use the precepts to obtain objects of desire. Also, The sutra continues, it is not addictively seeking to use the precepts to obtain a place of superior retribution within life and death or within samsara.

[13:27]

So again, there are traditions of wanting to go beyond karma, beyond life and death, beyond samsara, or to have some higher realm within samsara. The Sutra says you should just maintain and protect the precepts. If one desires liberation, but does not maintain and protect them, this is not yet the way of liberation. Therefore practice the perfection of the pure precepts. So again, it's not about getting something or getting some understanding or knowing even, what this is, it's practice protecting and maintaining this tradition of caring about our life, caring about our world. So that's the excerpt from the Prajnaparamita Sutra.

[14:29]

But then this text is a commentary on, actually a commentary on Dogen's short Kyoju Kaiman text about the precepts. It's a commentary by a great teacher named Oka Sotan, who was one of the most important Soto Zen teachers in Japan, oh, around 1900. And I can say more about him, but he says, excuse me, This is from Oka Sotan. Maintain and protect means to enter into the samadhi of nothing to be attained. The samadhi, the awareness, the settleness of nothing to be attained, to maintain and protect that which has no maintenance or protection, and to bring about the salvation of all those who have not attained salvation. So that's the flowing down the streams and sharing one's awareness with the 10,000 beings. So, Oka Sotan says, it is to save those who are not saved and are suffering, to liberate those who are in agony and not liberated.

[15:44]

It is to be in that state without eagerly or greedily seeking results. So to be in the Samadhi of nothing is to be attained, there's nothing to attain. The Heart Sutra says this, there's no attainment and nothing to attain. To be in that Samadhi without eagerly or greedily seeking results is the point. Okay, so considers it is so beautiful without addictively seeking. It is not to fail. Even without awakening, it means not to be deluded by the results of the attainment of awakening. Not to stop in the place of great awakening. And even when one attains Buddhahood, there is still cultivation and realization. So one doesn't finish.

[16:47]

One doesn't reach some attainment, one continues. Buddha continued to practice every day and to realize an awakening. So again, let me read that loud. So this is about the Samadhi of nothing is to be attained. So it is not defiled even without awakening. It means not to be deluded by the results of the attainment of awakening, not to stop in the place of great awakening. And even when it does attain Buddhahood, there's still more cultivation and realization. In cultivation and realization, there's no defilement. Cultivation is undefiled and realization is undefiled. And that is the great Mahana of the perfection of wisdom of the Parashara Paramita. So Dogen talks about this as the wind, where is it?

[17:56]

the wind blows into the depths and further winds blow. So the Buddha, the style of awakening goes into the depth and goes further. So Dogen also talks about Buddha going beyond Buddha. So I was kind of delighted to see here, see this text from the Prajnaparamitastra. This shows that this, this tradition of going beyond Buddha goes way back. It's not something that's just showed up in Soto Zen. And as Brooks was talking about yesterday, of course, it's in Chianti and in basic Chinese Buddhism and Buddha nature teaching. So this non, not to attain, not to know, you know, I think in early American Zen, there was this idea that we, you know, you have to get something.

[19:10]

And maybe again, this is just a human trait that we want to get something. We want to get somewhere else. If you want to get somewhere else, then you're not really where you are. So how do we, how do we understand this non-attainment? This is very important. This is the practical implication of all matter and all time include life. How do we enjoy our non-attainment? How do we allow Buddha to go beyond Buddha? So I can say more about all this, but maybe we should just have some discussion. I'm interested in your reflections on this, your comments about this. I'm going to try and get back on screen. Can you still hear me? So, Well, I said I would say more about Okasotan, so let me do that first.

[20:16]

Okasotan is the last person I quoted. He lived around 1900. He's very important in modern Soto Zen history. He was a teacher of the three main teachers of the 20th century Japanese Soto. So this is a little arcane knowledge, but Kishizawa Ion, who was one of Suzuki Roshi's teachers, is one of the three. And he emphasized, so these are three branches of 20th century's Japanese Soto Zen. They're not schools or anything, but they're just tendencies. And Kishizawa Ion and Suzuki Roshi emphasized Zazen, but also study, Dharma study to help support Zazen. One of the other three teachers was Sawaki Koto Roshi. very important teacher in 20th century Japanese Sōtō. He emphasized just zazen. So his disciple, Chiyan Roshi, is my friend Shōaku Okamura's teacher, and the school just, you know, just zazen.

[21:21]

Just Sazen. In Uchiyama Roshi and Shōhaku's shashins, there's no Dharma talks, there's no dōkusan. It's just Sazen. No service, anyway. And then the third is Hashimoto Eko. So all three of them studied with Oka Sotan. Hashimoto Eko is the branch of Soto Zen that Katagiri Roshi comes from. And one of the aspects of that branch or tendency of 20th century Soto Zen is performing service, performing ceremonies beautifully. really emphasizing, of course they do Zazen too, but also there's an emphasis on performing ritual. So anyway, that's Oka Sotan, who I was quoting, was the teacher of all three of them. Anyway, and all three of them could be seen as ways of non-attainment.

[22:26]

We can see non-attainment in all three, but it's, I think it's a little difficult for us to think about Zazen and not want to get something from it. And, you know, there are benefits of Zazen. I mean, you know, I see it in people in Sangha who have been sitting for a while. I see it in myself, but that's not the point. because there's always more. It's so non-attaining means also not finishing, not being through, not being, you know, to keep going. There's further depth. Okay, I will stop babbling and ask for your comments, questions, or responses. Please feel free. And Dylan, maybe you can help me call on people. So I might just add that the actual practice of not attaining and not knowing is to see the ways in which sometimes subtly we do want to get something, we do want to attain something, or we do want to know something, we want to understand, you know.

[23:54]

Our Sangha has a lot of people who are very bright, intellectual. It's not necessary to be bright and intellectual to do this practice, but anyway. There's this tendency to want to get something. So comments. Jerry, hi. Hi. Thank you for the talk. It's an interesting talk. I have a question about things that you want to accomplish, like, you know, I mean, building a building a Zen center or finding a new Zendo or figuring out how to preserve forms when we're online or actions that you want to take maybe to help the Sangha. So I guess I'm thinking if you're acting in some way for whatever goal you want, you can have a goal.

[25:04]

A, you have a goal. And B, you're going to have a plan and you're going to have some of your egos going to be tied up in that plan. I mean, that's just how life works. So then you fall back on this non-attainment thing or sort of the whole emptiness thing. Hey, that's a very hard thing to do, I think, manage that. But what advice do you give to someone trying to do that? Someone trying to act in a way that either helps or relieves suffering in some way? Yes, thank you. Where you have to need some sort of a plan or some sort of a goal in mind. Well, that's, you know, to have a plan or a goal, specific goal, you know, we can have aspirations. And I think that's an important part of our practice, our bodhisattva vow.

[26:09]

One of the paramitas, transcendent practices of bodhisattvas is vow. So this non-attainment that I've been speaking of is not about not helping relieve suffering. It's not about caring. It's not about dullness and inaction. But what is our attitude when we do want to, you know, develop a Sangha or help encourage world peace or whatever aspiration you might have? to try and clarify the forms in the zendo, which is very complicated when we have online and in-person zendos. So yeah, we do have things we want to accomplish. Can we do that in this spirit of non-attainment?

[27:12]

Which means that we don't know the result. Whatever we think we want to achieve, It's not going to, even if we, in some ways, something happens that is what we want, that is part of that, it's not going to look the way we imagine it. Nothing ever happens exactly according to our expectations. So I think what you're asking is a Really key question, Sherry. This non-attainment does not mean not caring. It does not mean not working to relieve suffering and provide good. It does not mean not working to share the practice and develop Sanghas and forth. who are suffering, but how do we do that in spirit?

[28:14]

This is actually really subtle advanced practice. How do we take care of the things we care about without being stuck on some particular idea of some attainment? It's not that there's no attainment. There is attainment, of course, but our idea of attainment is an obstruction. So how do we just open up to whatever the world presents us? So thank you. This is a deep question. I think Bryant had his hand up. Thank you. Your response to Jerry actually reformulated what I was going to say. I was just going to drop a few quotes on the theme that you talked about of non-attainment. but it occurred to me that it's a helpful thing to consider that the word attain synonymously also means to grasp or to hold on to and one of the fundamental if not the fundamental teachings of dharma is that suffering occurs when grasping occurs so non-grasping in jerry's example we can certainly plan a zen center and we can certainly plan to ease the suffering of others

[29:37]

but if we're grasping and holding on to our ideas of how that can happen in the face of what reality presents. If reality presents an alternate set of circumstances than we were expecting, like you mentioned, expectations, if we grasp onto our expectations in the hope that we're going to grasp onto our image or idea of a final attainment, That's the road to suffering, because reality never totally helps us according to what our idea of it is. And I think that leads directly to the Xin Jing Ming first couple of phrases. The great way is easy if you just don't attach to preferences. Let go of your preferences. It doesn't mean don't have preferences. You can plan a Zen center and try to help people. But if the people say, oh, we're not being helped in the way that you thought you were going to help us, but we'd rather be helped in this way.

[30:41]

If you say, no, it has to be my way, then suffering occurs and no one's helped. So. Yes. Thank you very much. Well said, Brian. Yes. It's, it's about nonattainment is also about not trying to get ahold of something, not trying to fix something. That's the part about unfinished or not knowing that we don't know actually what's happening. Right. Even in the middle of, you know, some activity where we are very competent, you know, uh, and we have skills and so forth, but reality is deeper than all of that. So, yeah, if we hold onto some idea of what we want to attain, that's, that gets, it gets in the way. So, uh, um, okay. So the tone speaks about not addictively seeking other comments. I'll make a comment.

[31:44]

In response to Jerry's question, I just would like to offer that one very basic thing to suggest is that this all gets run through the sifter of the precepts. So when we're acting and have some kind of moving around in the world, that taking the time to kind of see how the alignment is. And I wouldn't say get rid of grasping, but study it. Yes, from the with the heart of the precepts. And maybe that's a little bit tied in what you were referring to earlier when you were quoting, like, maybe it was Olga Sotan or the great Prashna Parmita scripture. Yes. Yes. So not attaining, not knowing means study, study the ways in which we have habits of wanting to attain and wanting to know. So to, so we, we have to see that we do, you know, want to attain things.

[32:57]

And that's okay. If we don't hold onto some, if we don't try and grasp onto something that we think is real, So how to navigate the impermanence and inconceivability of everything in the world. Thank you. I think Dylan has his hand up. Hey, Dylan. Hi. So my question is, how is attainment possible if if it's not possible to hang on to anything or like, you know, or hold anything? Well, yeah, of course, but it, it doesn't mean that because we can't hold onto it ultimately, it doesn't mean that there aren't positive events in the world.

[34:00]

You know, we, we, you know, we had this wonderful Zendo on Irving Park Road for whatever it was, 14 or 15 years. That's great. It was great that we had it, that we, some of us still remember it. But, you know, we will, we will, you know, now we're at Ebenezer and we're working towards finding some place that's, um, you know, more that has more of the, what we would like to have to be able to, to enact the forms and so forth. Uh, so that's, you know, so there's a wanting to attain something that I guess I'm involved with, but what is that's going to look like is not, uh, something I can know and have, you know, and everything is changing. So, um, Again, it doesn't mean we don't work to help, doesn't mean we don't care about the world and our activities in it and the beings of the world, but how do we not get stuck on some idea of getting a hold of something?

[35:14]

It's actually pretty subtle and difficult. And yet that's our practice. That's our life, that things happen and we can enjoy them. We can enjoy our practice. We can enjoy being together. We can enjoy, Juan Pablo, before you came, there was a tornado warning through Chicago, huge winds and moors of thunder went away a little before we started, but you know, we don't know what's going to happen. And still, we make some effort. We try and accomplish some things. So I think, Juan Pablo, did you have a good chat? Oh, you were having a bad connection. You wanted to ask, how can we relate or connect non-grasping with activism.

[36:18]

Oh, thank you for that. Yeah. So, um, I was thinking before when I was talking about how we do attain things, uh, we, uh, we do accomplish things, but they, um, don't necessarily stay or last the way we think. So, uh, I was thinking of the example of, uh, Dr. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, and which accomplished a lot. It accomplished a voting rights act. It didn't necessarily, it certainly didn't end racism. And now we have this revival of white supremacy and voting rights are in great danger. So there are shifts in time. And actually we don't, this is part of what Brooke was talking about yesterday. We don't really know what's going on. Brooke was talking about well sort of talking about multiple universes or the complexity of this universe.

[37:20]

And so this not knowing means that what, what seems to be happening is not all that there is. So how do we respond to that? How do we respond to that each in our own way to help relieve suffering, to help, take care of beings who are being oppressed to help worthy causes. But if you're attached to some particular thing that you think has to be the result, or if you're attached to some particular strategy or tactics or way of knowing about what that is, that's the problem. So flexibility. It's not attaining is about flexibility, but also about persisting. More winds come. Buddha goes beyond Buddha.

[38:21]

I don't know if that, if that responds. Yeah. How are we doing time wise? I think we have time for one or two more. Dylan, is there somebody with their hand up? Yeah, Brian, I think has a response. Only if no one else has, because I already made a comment earlier, but I could make a follow-up if no one else has a question. Okay. So on this thread we're pursuing, one sort of oft-quoted, from the original suttas, the Buddha was asked, can you sum up all of your dharma? And the Sanskrit response was, sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivasaya, which translates into, no dharmas are suitable for grasping, which is his way of saying that all things are empty of inherent existence, which leads into the Bodhisattva ideal,

[39:33]

as traditionally presented, and this leads into activism and everything else regarding attainment. Bodhisattvas, having realized the emptiness of all things, realize that there is nothing, ultimately, that can ever be attained in any final sense. And yet, the compassion arises to continue making the effort, as you said, Taigan, to save all beings and to end all delusions. And so, anytime we have any idea Usually ideas have some finality inherent in them, like, oh, once we get this Zen center, then everything will be great. Or once we get this thing, everything will be great. And as soon as you rest anywhere in your conceptions of some sort of, okay, this will be the end of it. You've lost the whole idea of all conditioned things are impermanent, you know, that we have to keep making these efforts. And so activism for a bodhisattva means, even though I know that there's no final resting place, that spurs me all the more in my compassionate activity.

[40:39]

One part of what you said I want to question, which is the thing about ending all delusion. Well, in the bodhisattva vows. Yeah, well, it's literally to cut through delusion. It's not ending them. So Dogen talks about being in delusion throughout delusion. So to see through. I paraphrased, I think. Yeah. The aspect of it I was trying to emphasize was the endlessness of it. Right, right. I got it, Brian. But the point I'm trying to make is that the practice of this So this is, in some ways, at least one aspect of the practice of what Brooke was talking about yesterday, is that we don't get caught by our ideas. It's not that we get rid of delusions, because that's like getting rid of, you know, samsara. We don't try and get rid of samsara, if I may. So to see through, to see how we are caught by our desire to grasp, to attain, to figure out, to calculate, to know.

[41:53]

It's not that any of those things are bad, but when we get addicted to it, as Oka Sotan says, when we get caught by it, then... Now we're grasping. Yeah, so how do we keep our balance? Right. And continue to practice, More winds come, Buddha going beyond Buddha. So it doesn't mean we don't act in the world. We keep fanning. Exactly. Yeah. So any last other, other last comment, anyone, anyone who's not spoken yet? In AA, our, Our third step reads, we made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand God. I don't use the masculine pronoun, but I think that that keys into an elemental level with what we're talking about here, and that it's okay to keep your will, and it's okay to make plans, and it's okay to engage in activity.

[43:08]

but the results are out of our hands. And there's nothing to attain on a permanent basis. Right. Impermanence is permanent. And yeah, in the context of precepts, the precepts are about connection to Buddha? They're not, you know, do we return to Buddha? How do we return to, you know, in AA we talk, you know, as Joe was saying in the context of God, but, you know, we could talk about how do we return to awakening? How do we continue awakening? How do we, um, you know, act from there, but without getting caught in some idea of some particular attainment that is somewhere else.

[44:14]

It's right here. It's always right here. How do we act right here to help suffering beings, to help provide joy? So maybe on that note, um, We will not finish this talk or attain the end of non-attainment, but let's continue together, please. So, Dylan, will you do the Bodhisattva vows for us, please? Well, I hope we'll do them together. I'll just be the one that's heard, I think. Beings are numberless. I vow to free them. Delusions are inexhaustible.

[45:17]

I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to answer them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to realize it. Beings are numberless. I vow to free them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to realize it. Beings are numberless. I vow to free them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to realize it.

[46:18]

Oh, Taigan, you're still muted. Sorry, can you put those four vows up again because it occurred to me in terms of what we've been talking about to comment on three or four of them. Beings are numberless, I vow to free them. One story about why the Bodhisattva Kanon Valakiteshvara has 11 heads is that she freed all beings and then she looked back and there were more beings entering Samsara and her head broke apart in grief. And this happened 11 times before Amida Buddha said, okay, that's enough. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. It's not that we end delusions, actually literally it's I vow to cut through. We don't get caught by delusions. We actually enter delusions and are willing to be in the world of delusion, but we see through it. We don't get caught by it, or we vow to not get caught by it.

[47:30]

Dharmas are boundless, I vow to enter them, and we have to continue to enter them. It doesn't happen one time. And Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to realize it. But again, that realization is not something that we do once and then we're finished. This is this ongoing realization and openness of non-attainment. So thank you, Dylan. So let's do announcements.

[47:57]

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