Natural Zen and Buddhist Zen

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BZ-00039B
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Saturday Lecture

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Auto-Generated Transcript

i bet
less than
saturday day i talked about the differences between
don't practice
in america and
the traditional than practice in at ten and
talked about them
food
families and women
procedures since i said
and
today i went to
tucked on
about them

just practise in general
i touched down at last time that time
when talk more about it fun
just
how we practice which is different in some sense but

i've talked about this before that but
without making so much distinction between priests monks and lay people
a priest is
i kind of administrator
actually
monk is more like our son one who was just practicing
just engaging in the practice down
the unusually we get the title or monk to someone who is or dazed and in prison
and in america and if we don't have so much
it's hard to define exactly what is a prison what is a monk because the ordained monks usually
take on a roll of priests
whereas in a say in japan
there'd be a lot of monks but not so many priests
and then allow lay people
so that roles of a priest monk and laypeople
have very different connotations in america than they do in japan
so
we consider anybody a monk who is just practicing whether there ordained or not we discovered by a monk if they really practicing
you know i'll explain it this way
hum
and in a way that way
there are different degrees of participation in practice within your own mind
and within your own activity
and am
ted baker actually gave an interesting explanation the day he said
some people who
there there are people who recommends it thousand
and
that's plays an important part in your life
but
therein and they enjoy that
hum
are their life which is as him but there at the enjoyment of their life which is not just sitting comes from some other source
and some other place where is someone who you would consider having monks practice their enjoyment of their life comes from practicing with the saga and developing buddhism
in america
so does the people who you consider a monk whether they haven't been a dane or not is not some as point
but that's kind of month someone who is enjoyment
how is in
i'm practicing buddhism in promoting it and helping others to practice
and then lay people and people who are not ordained and not
hum
so interested in buddhism
for in promoting practice or helping people to practice but
get some benefit from cities as it
so these are kind of three categories
and
ah
there's also comes
he is that also ties in to
it doesn't
types of zen practice
types of xin there are lots of types of them
birds went over to one time when kind of sanders
naturals in
and the other kind of thing as buddhists in
and natural xin like bit
beat sends a kind of natural them and squares in to know alan watts
complete ten schools in his little pamphlet
squares and is more traditional and buddhist zen
now and ah
natural them is
course the sandwich we are have
i'm and ah
probably what we're interested in will repeat into practice the seven natural naturalism
ha and when we actually start practicing we come up against buddhist sense
with a who needs that
you know i went to real thing no i'm just a natural dam which is
i want

i want the real salami but i don't have to pay budget for it

but we get cut into buddhists dan because no matter how much we tried to develop our own then by yourself
we need the sanger we need the buddha who need the dharma
ah and ha
it's very rare that someone can practice by themselves and actually
develop their inherent ah
buddha nature
so
yeah
if we continue to practice at all
then we get mixed up with buddhist sin
i'm
we need the tradition and we need the dharma and we need someone to teach us
ha
but the naturals in is the basis of it all
if we didn't have it to begin with we couldn't stay it we didn't have it we wouldn't know what it is
so ah
natural then rinse
our unpolished stone
slacker and polished diamond
and each one of us is like a diamond in the rough
and now
but in order to
bring out the qualities and that diamond
we polish it in practice sets com buddhism
so there's a bachelor's in and buddhist buddhism and what we like is our natural to him
ha
but
what we have doing now
work with his buddhists and and when we discovered
ha
the qualities of are
natural in through buddhists in we've come to appreciate that buddhism
and the practice and and are enlightenment becomes much more mature
and we realize why we have buddhists in and why it's important to practice
so
these are on various factors that we're always working with
hum
natural zen buddhist then lay lay person monk impressed
they aren't there are connected
all parts of
how we approach our practice
and there's room of course for everybody but in practice there's room for all of these views
hum
but what we appreciate most is ah
monks zen in prison
hum
and but they don't the categories
hum
lay person and priest now we're not so much concerned with
what we're really concerned with is how we actually practice
ah aside from the categories where we're actually doing
that's the point them
and
it's
important at some point you know to i have to fall in love with practice
to love our practice
and
it was when we love practice
then i even though we have a various problems with in practice we don't have a problem
we don't have some big problem
ah and love you know it's like
ah i think i talked about this last time
certain kind of attraction
and
beginners
practice is a kind of love affair
ah and we haven't a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of an attraction and when we discover something about and when when we first entered practice and it brings something out of this something startling and something that we have an experienced before
you know usually when we get them and begin to practice we if we continue we have a kind of of can't show experience
they talk about can show a lot in bins i practice in soto practice we don't talk so much about can show but are a kind of bomb enlightening
ha intuitive understanding experience
i think that we all have that when we begin to practice we may not recognize it
but we all discover something otherwise you wouldn't continue to practice
there wouldn't be anything
keeping up with in practice if we didn't have
some
revelation
and that's kind of like
what do you have when you have a love affair
when you on
meet with somebody you have this wonderful kind of opening up
but then in order to keep it going
he had to develop your relationship you can't he can't the relationship doesn't sustain itself on that first kind of revelation
unless
he developed the relationship through various kinds of circumstances
but it just kind of atrophies and falls away and then you fall out of love and then you look for someone else to form movement so we're always looking for someone else the fuck
because they liked that momentary flash enough but we don't like to develop something very hard to develop some financially
how to keep developing something
because if you do she continued to develop something in yet to deal with hate as well as love you know next to it
have affected but you got the person was good looking in that age and you look at him again and you know different accent because the target that
in an award on the elbow which he you overlooked in community
so we have in a love affair you really have to get down to reality with your partner
the can't go on infatuation and on the surface you can go and take continue with surface relationship you have to get down to
the bones and see your partner
without any covered
so did the same applies to practice so that we have to see practice after we get the first
infatuation
then practice because a kind of normal activity
and so we had to practice with an abnormal say of practice which is sitting zazen bidding up in the morning sickness as him getting a the are coming deserves mean and depending on what we can do
am
so our practice and i'm getting ahead of myself
hey
so
ah
love actually turns into various things
doesn't stay in it
if love continues it doesn't it gets transformed so we don't recognize that necessarily as love you know it it takes the form of cooperation or compassion or equanimity or ah
patients

various qualities and as a matter of fact whatever the situation is it's can kind of like the glue that holds you together
it keeps you
together with whatever's happening
and so it actually becomes deeper and deeper but sometimes it's so deep that you don't even recognize when it is
goes beyond your idea that what you thought it was
so
in that case it means that you have to hang on to the relationship the yeah
no matter what happens
today you know people are divorced or easily because
they have an infatuation but they don't want to
ah
developed ah
the low situation beyond their infatuation so
it's citizens get tough they get divorced in never it
it's getting more and more difficult to stay with in that situation then
find out the truth of it so you know how we find out the truth is and of ourself is through some situation
ha and continuing with the situation through all of its aspects through all of its changes
it's like if if you go to the top of the mountain if you're climbing a mountain
if you go to the top of the mountain no matter what happens unless it's absolutely impossible
so that means you have to deal with every situation that comes up between the band with the mountain and metabolism
and
so when you get to the top of the mountain you know you know you don't have any more clothes laughter
all the equipments got scratched up and beat up and trusted know whatever you have the satisfaction of love
because you stayed with the situation
how to the end
so
that's the kind of
love it's necessary in order to continue to practice
and you can practice that time
with any situation and if a person that here with for out with your work or with relationships in the world
it's called on sincerity
huh
so
hmm
huh
this is the i'm very important point
in japanese car zen
the sincerity and and making a decision and standing by a decision
hum
when people are first went to japan to study with presented same masters in japan
they didn't understand the japanese attitude
and they thought well most people vote when i go to japan and steady for the while and then and learn about daddy come home
that's from their point of view but from the japanese teach point of view someone becomes to study they just come to study that there's no after is not after study there's just you can do it okay he has okay you can come into it but there's no you go home afterwards or
for a certain period of time
when so they expected that people can with by the chemist and practice in in the monasteries which has come and practice in
however long it took on her life no partial commitments of
time limits or something i go and when people's plan to go home after three years or hydra has from the breaking a contract and they're not sincere and already subsistence so there was blood difficulty lot of misunderstanding and learning difficulties

i think it's easier now japanese people are making some concession to americans or europeans i just letting them practice with them without making big commitments but the practice the for teaching i get is not the same
as the teaching me get and they have some commitment
so ah the truth of it is a practice is something that is you do for your whole life
that's what we call practice and as why our particular practices
doesn't have any
steps to it
suzuki roshi was very careful
i to avoid step but he can't step ladder practice where
yeah used you have a certain
starting place and then you get to place number two do been practicing for a while and when we have another understanding get to place three and i'm not up until you finally reach nirvana enlightenment something that was he was very careful to avoid that kind of
my practice
because although he didn't demand
so much from everybody
he went
he made it very clear that practice or something that he did for your whole life and was your hello
ha
no matter what your situation
so what we appreciate his ah
people who are really dedicated to practice no matter what form it takes in their life
and i
you may have different things to do in your life
and you may have different you're like me take various turns but for your whole life
ah you see that activity and you can do an activity as practice of buddhism

so what he was interested in and was our sincerity and a love affair with a buddhism

huh
so people know who practice here
hey steadily and maintain the practice and encourage other people to practice
ah and his practice is ah
inspires other people
the
who really appalled
our practice
these are the people that we call i would come max just as a general to

have you got my expenses and of months practice
because in japan the differences quite
extreme
the priests and months or more monastic and
and dad when you're going the monastery here at monk
unless you have some special position and then when you go back home from the to temple the temple priest
and then people come to talk to the priest
and the priest takes care of the family isn't
ha
people through some of the temple but they don't ship doesn't i think a little practice
the way exactly the way we do their practice though is very much part of their lives
ha
think that's true
but
it's quite different
to have people come and sit surgeon even occasionally and is quite different to have people
comments and eyes and regularly as a practice so ah
people who do you feel very
ah bit about we have a lot of admiration for actually americans people
who come common practice as it regularly as part of life
and so what we consider what would we reconsider a month is someone who enjoys the practice
ah and helps people to practice and is the enjoyment from asanga for be lying to the sanga and studying the dharma
ah and developing a of buddha
huh
huh
he so
they're also two sides
two
our approach to practice one side is
how we develop myself
and the other side is how we help
other people what we do in the world to ah
express our understanding
an hour so the one side
his development our own development
and ah that's
not even a both sides overlap even in both sides containing ones that contains the other
am
zazi practice and training
within the sun within that
doesn't practice in learning something about the dharma
learning what is donna
is the developmental side
we develop ourselves and help other people to develop
and the other side is just helping people and doing something in the world as
i helps the world and as as a both sides contain the other but
the it's very important to
at the same time as you're developing yourself that you doing something useful
besides that
ah in the world
huh
so i actually the the com kind of lies in this area yeah
the training and developing myself
tom is to to learn the universal nature of things and myself anymore things
and i'm doing something in the world is taking on the the particular tasks of life
so changing is kind of like the negative side
ah and
ha
working in the world is my positive side
in both sides are necessary
search
we are is it can be a big problem you know if we just want to develop myself just chain
ah since the shade all time and just one is it doesn't thousand the time
and study actually i would appreciate that much better
but
if if you just are stuck on that side and
you're neglecting the other side
which is how you
take care
interact with the world
and positive way
and if you're just stuck on that side know that this unit sorry you missed the real need a practice the real sensor practice
so you know mostly we're emphasizing the side of
ah the negative side because it's decide that you don't know anything about it
suicide that were ah
it's hard to penetrate
hard to find
so we've put a lot of emphasis on it
susan says shane
ha
interacting together within the sangha
in study
but the way it's proved or the waves carried out his within activity in the world so
if you're too heavy on one side you need to
ah do more with the other side
huh now i want i want to make sure that and
people who are very busy don't feel that i'm
trying to get me the simone zaza
i'm not saying that
ha
when we have people who opens have been practicing here for fifteen years
and his lives or
a very outgoing and a
busy concerned with a lot of
business or a family
service obligations but you know over long period of time those people have a very steady spacing very very steadily very sincerely
ah and that kind of
a long time commitment to practice
with all the problems that come in a life
and yet still always dependable and always

knowing what you're doing
that kind of slow development
is very encouraging very
it's like over a long long period of time his penis a kind of development which has occurred
it's like them someone says walking in a fog you don't wish you don't know your wet until you feel your post
and then it was soaked
that's them
kind of characteristic of our
practice
without looking for some improvement in without looking for some
now visible sign
at some point you feel your clothes the wet
huh
huh
so a superior she said
for americans i think that what you're in america i think what you're looking for is some real way of life
ha
the city it sits ah
america has since americans some way a way of life
the city and mean is suitable to you
that suits you an idea of it is suitable to you
which you're looking for it
ha and he said the fact that was very good at tom
where developing
one way and that he should understand duggan's way they should understand food is way he should know
buddhism and he should note dungeons and dragons understand it
then you have something to develop with
you have somewhere
developing
so we continue to develop our way what we call her own way
but
that if we just developer own way that's kind of naturals in
but we develop our own way practicing with brioche practicing with trillion practicing west as a diversion and all the features that sad
buddhist then
so
we're connected to know with everybody from the past
it's kind of wonderful you know to know them
we have this long connection of teaching teachers that
we actually love in her
are giving us so much because they love us
that's
the something that we may not think about some match bed

all the teachers pounds in kind of for a long lineage
i have dedicated themselves to us
in their whole the whole purpose of their life was to dedicate themselves to us
so
rather than ignoring their efforts we should look into it and see what it is they're offering
how do you have a question
ha
earlier this week
is and who is i
secretary just between koreans may ask him and his own differences be fake
ceremony and so i'm where i go with central said was to the second that said i think what you have to do is just chisholm when to practice with and just to that and it was doing that admin anything doesn't matter you know that people wear different clothes from different countries
so and are various practices come from japan and korea and china so
it's good to just put on the clothes and put on the costume have you practice every comes from and just practice in that way
and then i just appreciate the other practices they're not really different in essence they're just different in form and style
ha
and that
it's good to be able to not get hung up on it and those differences
but wherever you go just practice the way they practice their you know if you go to mt gate
just practise everything just the way they do it is and if you come here just practice everything the way we doing here so you just ah
fall into step with people you with
if it if you say
this can't be right into do it the other way over there
when you have a problem
so that always is problem you know when people go to another send center for the been practicing for a long time someplace so they do anything wrong
but they kind of judgment just comes from your dualistic
the mind
when you say to sign you say it's best to next one
say what we say it's best to be connected visit when your best practice of one
oops it's more comfortable
and you don't get so confused
and i
you have some

pitt then the people that you're practicing with can relate to you
and you can relate to enemies and you
so
although it's good to appreciate palm
the other other practice places are the ways of practice there's some kind of loyalty that you have when new practices in someplace i don't mean it's like it's not like nationalism
sen kennedy of loyalty that i guess people that you practice with confidence about you and your confidence about them have anything to seven
and then he can appreciate the various other practices but you know what you're doing we use you settled on practice

about you know the right way to company to it ah
he a lot of things shared an intense competition can keep buying
is difficult to well that was told that you put your head of match returns not seen him to that
how as an and just no details i'm always trying to think about and to let us directly to do it she recently i realized that ah that takes up a gargantuan huge stakes in ah the things and it's like it it seems to be and a census a bot
at know want to ask about that is the always always thinking my posture is not quite right yeah i am not bound by flame or in that always understand just telling your assets could that does it take for questions and answer differently said burlington
where we first started to bow was as if hiroshima know we lift our hands and and contender hit three times every time we bad
and then tathagata abbey she came along it does a harness know i just don't want
the again with city i think i may have said something about that i mentioned it to them and then any to started doing it somebody simpleness do that
to three times as is very formal bow and one time is less formal but we i don't want hear that you can do it returns if you want
but i'm trying with the feeling of always a bad and specific thing but the feeling always it as you're doing it is and i'm doing this quote back to ask questions
okay has held off a lot of questions that to monitor but
and everything about your posture is that's a different kilogram because your posture is never right
that's that's true it's never as so it's always right but it's never there's no no one
moment that chemists stay right here it's always changing limited it's only right when you're when you're watching that you're making it correct
it's always right when you're paying attention to it but otherwise not right
and if the fish is right because he's moving
as to get lucky for you
people was one to see other people see if you're carrying the stick you say it matter and the variety of shapes and sizes and not quivering
out of her essence is always in a sense very comforting am i doing that to zero
in other side of a great sense of humanity and variety and you wanted some the military
message should be the bursary someday we're going from efficiently your head and you will always falling asleep in some always one of it
they're all trying very hard good africa
one a christian
i mean i'm teasing apart from posting a like haunts be kind of you watching it
what fashion or like me
i was pastoring like it's now arrived unless you're always making know
there's no one pasture the carries a different city

the track catherine now i'm especially if i get the distinctions you're the different kinds of the wines and at to handle ah confused about the layman
is it a manner of
a recent suggesting that of an alumni clinton did you defined in terms of a commitment to to producing an embedded like an be how they met the album or us on zero seven with focusing on the center as well
have this is a troubling is a great this throw an error narrow my own category get on and
don't don't say that

there's just really you have a real
he did
since the day