So, not that we're going to finish, but we'll have run out of time with this morning session. We're never quite finished, either with exploring what the path is for us or exploring ourselves, but we have quite a bit we want to cover in this last period with you. All right. Okay. Okay, well, I wanted to go back to the story about my sister, which I probably shouldn't have told you. I wanted to figure out what she would have to confess, and I thought that has relevance to the whole Desert Father project, I think, because she was very sincere in her particular theology. She was resting in the assurance that she had been washed in the blood of the Lamb and that she was clean and sanctified, and that she were bailed in to be a servant of God,

[01:05]

and she did. I mean, she was always visiting people in the hospital or sitting on dinners, and so she sincerely couldn't ... Her perception of sin was that it was deliberate and malicious, and she couldn't find anything in her like that, you know? And so I wanted to add that to the story, because I think that's an important realization to have, if we can get the most out of reading about the Desert Fathers and talking about them, because that's not at all how they saw sin. And I mentioned yesterday that part of their project was to be able to see themselves clearly, to really see into the depths of their own soul, and yet they were totally aware all the way through that, that we never can. Ultimately, we are mysteries to ourselves. So things open up, you begin to see areas, light falls on certain dark places in you, you know? And you can begin dealing with those, but ultimately we never do see who we totally

[02:06]

are. And in fact, some of their greatest elders on the plane of death would be weeping for their sins, because they knew they were in there. You know? They might have worked so hard all these years to put the words of Jesus into actual practice, but they knew that there was still stuff, and that they were totally dependent and reliant on the grace of God. So I thought that would be a good thing to say. Unfortunately, you know, for many centuries, the Desert Fathers weren't so popular. They had a huge impact on early Christianity all the way up through medieval times. And then, you know, 500 years ago or so, they fell more and more out of favor. You know, part of that, of course, was the Reformation. It was a misconception, once again, that what they were doing was trying to earn brownie points with God, doing all these hard things so that they could stack up their merit list. That was not what they were about. But I just got to read you this. This cracks me up every time I read it, although it's sad, too.

[03:08]

Here's what some of the great historians said about the Desert Fathers. One of them, Edward Gibbons, the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. He could not stand them or monks in general. He said... You're welcome. He characterized monks as individuals who, this is a quote, inspired by a savage enthusiasm which represents man as a criminal and God as a tyrant, embraced a life of misery as the price of eternal happiness. Well, yeah. Moreover, he sweepingly asserted that a, quote, cruel, unfeeling temper has distinguished the monks of every age and country, including New Camomile. Does it say that? No. You just rolled off your tongue. He doesn't say it.

[04:13]

She says it. But this guy, W.E.H. Leckie, who's writing at the end of the 19th century, and says in his otherwise measured history of European morals, expresses his full weight of contempt for the monastic rejection of the world, he calls it. For Leckie the monk was, quote, a hideous, sordid, and emaciated maniac without knowledge, without patriotism, without natural affection, passing his life in a long routine of useless and atrocious self-torture and wailing before the ghastly phantoms of his delirious brain. Not always appreciated. Except when you became a psychologist. Didn't help all these guys. You know, one of the issues is that, you know, the sense of cultural and personal anthropology changes over the centuries.

[05:18]

So the sort of things that they were involved in, I mean, no one ate well in those days. So when they, when you hear what they're eating, that wasn't just all that different from what a lot of other people were doing too. It was a sacrifice. It's very clear about that. And I'll just jump ahead to one of these, which I think is really an excellent one. All of these citations are from the book here. So you'll find them all in here. But there was a clear sense among the educated ones who came to the desert that learning would have to start over in this place. Well, so those that are very critical of them didn't understand that. And so they're taking their sense of learning, their sense of human experience and putting it back two millennia. And it didn't have an understanding of that whatsoever. But, you know, in those days there weren't these distinctions.

[06:22]

Well, you know, I'll see a dietician to work on my diet, and then I'll see a therapist, a trainer, personal trainer, you know. All of those things, they weren't divided out like this. Father Bruno always talking about it, it's all about this one thing. And it was for them too. It was all about seeking God and, you know, purifying oneself. So when they're talking about sin, you know, they're talking about the weakness, the way in which we don't measure the fullness of our humanity. The earliest desert writers and those just after them were very fascinated with the fall and original sin, and the sense that we were made in God's image, but we fall short in the likeness. And the whole of life is spent in trying to reclaim that likeness.

[07:26]

And as Paula said, we don't finish this side of heaven, but we take the steps toward that. Yeah. Yeah. But that is important to say. And, you know, something that really helped me, and it just happened a couple weeks ago, because I've struggled with this whole concept of who we are deep inside. You know, part of me, the modern part of me says, is this healthy, you know, to think of myself as that? But I don't know how many of you saw the photograph that was published in somewhere, some local newspaper, of Pope Francis embracing a man who was so hideously disdained you couldn't even tell almost that he was a human being. I mean, all I could distinguish in the picture, because his, you know, they were like this, and his head was resting right here. I could see an ear, and I could see hair coming out from all over the place, and this oddly shaped head, and huge boils everywhere.

[08:27]

And he apparently suffers from a very rare, strange disease that just causes this kind of twisting and distortion in the body. And he lives in intense, excruciating pain all the time. And here's this picture. And you know, the minute I saw that, I said, that's me. That is my, this is God, and this is my soul. You know, and I think that's exactly how the desert fathers would probably see things, is, you know, with the divine vision of all this, we can't help but look like that, you know. And what a beautiful thing that we're embraced in this way, and loved. And so, I don't know if that helps you think about this, but I would guess they might approve of that image. So I think, and the words tend to ring harshly on our ears today, and I thought, what if I heard this language before? When I started, you know, copying this last night, I mean, there's some very pungent, tart kinds of things, and I didn't put up the wildest ones.

[09:30]

I mean, these are just a sampling. I wanted you to see the kinds of little pissy, aphoristic things they would say out there when people would come to them for wisdom, seeking wisdom. But I thought, I've heard this before. Aha, I went to Matthew and read the Serpent of the Mount last night. Guess who talks like this? I think they picked up their style from their deep immersion in Scripture and the words of Jesus. And Jesus says them, downright harsh stuff. If your eye offends you, pluck it out. You know, don't mess around with it. And so they're very much in that tradition. And they also, in our time, I think we've come to believe that doing what comes naturally, as much as we can, is the healthy way to live. You know, not repressing our anger. We need to express our anger and get it out of us, or it will sit in there and chew us alive or whatever. Exact opposite. Their whole project was to learn to do what did not come naturally,

[10:32]

because they saw what Jesus said to us as literally impossible for a human being. Who naturally turns their other cheek? Give me a break. Or who gives away their last coin to the poor when they're going to starve? I mean, these are things that almost seem superhuman to us, unless they're coupled with deep, deep humility, the grace of God, a willingness to be used. Martyrdom does not come naturally to people. And so I think disabusing ourselves in the notion that if something hurts or causes any kind of discomfort or even suffering, that suffering in and of itself is bad and should be banished on all fronts. That's been the big modern project, and we've eliminated a lot of suffering. But there's certain kinds of suffering that come with being a child of God in a fallen world. You know, that's just how it is. And so they weren't afraid of that in a way that we kind of automatically assume

[11:32]

is sick or twisted, if you would take that on voluntarily, as you heard from our friend Lucky. Right. And so really what these kind of really super-negative assessments that you read about the Desert Fathers ignore or just don't understand is the whole point of the project. The project in the desert was to learn to love as Christ loves. That's what they were trying to do. That was the point of trying their best to cooperate in the transformative project that they were in with God, to become humble enough to love. So, you know, what did that mean? That did mean if you were bad-mouthed by somebody, you let it go. You didn't retaliate. You didn't follow the natural human path of taking vengeance on that person over and over and over and over again. Real simple stuff, but it just does sound odd to us. So, any questions about that?

[12:35]

Yes, Dave. We're in the modern era, if you will. This is the ancient. 1,700 years ago, yeah. And I believe there's things to be learned here. Yes. But I think you've pointed out, and Brother's mentioned too, that a lot of these things relate to the era in which they lived. So I think it's not that we can't learn from this, but it's kind of like trying to take it verbatim or taking it literally. Does it fit? Does it not fit? Does it make us crazy? Yeah, sure. And some of these people did go crazy. There's no doubt about it. That was a great danger of going out there. And so they slowly developed these ways of being. One of them was called the royal way. The royal way was a kind of middle path, which was not extreme, and the elders would jump on their disciples who were getting into the whole almost sadomasochistic extremism of it.

[13:40]

So they realized pretty early on, too, that things had to be. But I hear what you're saying, and that will be the last part of this talk, is trying to translate it into today, and seeing what we can pull from them. Because clearly, I doubt if any of us are going to go live in a cave in the Mojave. Yes. I would say I was struck when some of these guys did some great work, how much these actions they follow. It's an incredibly good way to really see yourself is to actually literally follow some of these. Like someone was taking advantage of the bears, no retaliation. One of the saints was, don't justify. Try going through a day without justifying your reactions, and you will learn amazing things. The other big one was, if slavery has become a thing, praise poverty and riches, prefer nothing. So all of our righteous, right, correct attitudes about how the world should be, look at those, and try to go through a day. And not having any preference to your states,

[14:41]

the states, anything else, what is happening to you. It's very, you do it over a length of time, and you really see yourself in a very different way. You see yourself, and you also begin to change a little bit, too. You know, you slowly... It's kind of an internal question, almost, not to just move everything out of the way, it's healthy for the continuation of who we are and for our ego, but is that what we're on by spiritual path? Exactly. Any other responses to what we've just said? Okay. Yeah, I mean, just remember if your automatic response is kind of shocked when you read some of this, if you do buy the book and go further with it, a lot of that language, the jarring language, is coming from that place, and also from this kind of Jesus-like way of, boing, right between the eyes. It isn't softened for our...

[15:43]

so that we're not offended by it. In some ways it is meant to be, you know, a kind of in-your-face. It's supposed to grab our attention. And who's offended? What's offended is your ego, your sense of self and righteousness. So that's how you can see where you are between yourself and God, is what is offended. Where's that one about letting go of your righteous... Oh, let go of a small part of your righteousness, and what, of course, it means is self-righteousness, for in a few days you'll be at rest. Sounds pretty good. Think of how much energy we spend in constantly self-justifying, rationalizing our own behavior to ourselves and others, defending ourselves. Let it all go. You'll be at peace. And it's not a matter of just keeping it within yourself. I mean, it's one thing not to be saying it to everybody, but then if you're just having this internal war all the time inside yourself with these conversations,

[16:44]

that's an improvement, but there's still work to go. So, I mean, better not to be shouting at other people literally, but if you're doing that shouting in your mind, that's a great first step, but more to do. Sure. And the neat thing about their writings is they definitely see it as little baby steps, and they'll say, okay, if you can't keep from thinking it, at least keep from saying it. That's a start. They would always say, that's a beginning. And then once you get kind of used to not spouting off all the time, then start working on the thought, and then slowly start working on the heart itself. A great little example of this was my whole family, I think because of growing up in a kind of hyper-anxious family situation, learned to look at food as comfort. So, of course, what does that lead to? And so Mom herself kept gaining weight over the years until when she died.

[17:46]

She was pretty heavy. And my sisters and I have all battled it, some more successfully than others, and my youngest sisters had a real struggle with it. And she had done a good job of getting in shape, and then she just kind of went pfft. She got into a stressful time and kind of put 35 pounds back on. So we're sitting there talking in a restaurant, in all places. And I presumed to offer her a little word about how she can get... And she looked at me and she said, You don't have anything to say to me. I said, I don't. And she said, You're nothing but a tightly controlled glutton yourself. And you know what? She was totally right. She was. It was true. I mean, that's the stage I was with my automatic response. When I'm stressed out, I grab food. You know? I hadn't gotten past that at all. I just fought with myself not to do it.

[18:48]

But she knew that had not gotten to my heart yet. And it was like talking to a desert father. Wow. Yes, Janet. You had a question? Yeah, go right ahead. Yeah, so let's say that... Sorry, I don't know your name. Katherine. Katherine. I think the point that Katherine is making really is rather profound. I mean, we already know it's profound. But I think that, you know, when you read these commentaries... You know, I've had this experience. Like I said, when I came here, I was in pretty bad shape. I mean, health-wise, weight-wise, and all that. And this morning I was doing my little run. I don't run far, but I run far enough. And the thing is that... Now I'm running, I'm laughing, thinking that two months ago I would have died in the first 15 seconds of this attempt. I mean, really, I would have been Fred Sanford Part 3. You know? And I'm just thinking.

[19:50]

But now I'm laughing because it's almost effortless. I could probably run all the way down the hill if I wanted to. But before, when I first started, there was no way that could happen. And I'm just thinking that these people are saying these things, but have they tried it? You know, I've even attempted to see that maybe they're talking about an experience that they don't even know what it's about. It's an interior environment that they have no idea what they're talking about. You know? And so it may seem irrelevant or strange or whatever, but I know that since my coming here, I look back, and I'm always making this comparison between the life here, the Diocesan Priesthood, and, you know, at least my Diocesan Priesthood, let's be fair, right? I don't know about everybody else, but I look back and I said, you know, I felt so bad because I said, Oh my God, I don't even feel... I feel like I haven't been a Christian for years.

[20:50]

You know? I mean, I was doing all the priest things and lots of people were commending me, and the people who weren't commending me were nice enough not to say anything. But, you know, I mean, it was fine. But something inside of me was going, you know? But I came here, and now it's gone. Ooh. Because it doesn't seem like it was even remotely Christian. And now I'm sitting here, and I'm going to be one of those guys in this deathbed going, Oh God, please let me be a Christian again. You know? Because I feel like, you know, I've lived all this time, and this is as far as you've gotten. You still have all these vices, and maybe I've covered them over nicely. You know? But they're still there. Oh my goodness. You know? So I think what you're saying is really, really true. You know? It's like, don't knock these guys until you've tried it. Because once you start to get into it, that's when you sort of go, Ah! Ah! You know, I think there's another important point, you know?

[21:52]

So even these great elders on their deathbeds, you know, were weeping for their sins. But by and large, they knew they were going to heaven. So they were not living, you know, in this fear that plagued so much of us, that one wrong step or not having done enough, whatever that means, is being condemned. This is really the issue. They were not driven by fear. They were driven by love. And those commentators you talk about were driven by fear. They saw that, you know, here I'm a psychologist, but at an unconscious level, people, you know, when they write like that, they know they can't even come close to so-called measuring up, which we're not interested in measuring up. God does not have this tape measure sort of thing.

[22:55]

So I think it's important, you know, even with all these very strong and poignant statements, it wasn't that... Anyway, they weren't afraid. I mean, they were all afraid, but they were not driven by fear. And I think that's an important thing. Thank you for your comment. I think there's something about community, too. When the gas is increased, I know we're in an extremely lonely existence. You are really out there by yourself. And I think a similar position that a lot of us feel in the book is we're out there by ourselves. And community, you've come here to community, and we've come here to community, and, you know, there's a whole lot to be said, and two or more are gathered. You know, it does... We need that insight from others. We need that just being next to others, I think, is important in healing.

[23:55]

That's huge. And you bring up something, too, which I think was a big concern of them, which is knowledge is not the same as... You know, head knowledge is not the same as the kind of wisdom they were after. And Dave, you asked what sapiential quadrilateralism was. This is a sapiential path, which means a wisdom path, which means it's about how we live. It's about actually doing. It is not an intellectual movement at all. In fact, they had very deep concerns about getting caught up in speculating about the meaning of Scripture. Often the elders would be asked to interpret something, and they would say, oh, no, no, I'm not wise enough to do that. You know, Jesus said that. But what I do know is if you do this, you might see. You know, exactly what you're saying. If you actually try this, you will learn. You have to be on the inside of it through putting your whole body... It's an embodied kind of life. So...

[24:57]

Yeah, because it sounds crazy. It sounds crazy. But hey, so does faith, right? Try to explain faith to somebody who absolutely has no clue and no desire to know, and all they can throw at you is huge logical arguments. And my word to them is always, you know what? This sounds so exclusive, but you need to come through the door first and see what's going on and participate at whatever level you can, and things will begin making sense to you. But until you do that, it's going to be a closed book. You know? So... I think we have gotten to part of number three here. What was the possibility of achieving freedom from these forces and coming to a sense of abiding peace? And they did believe, of course, that there was a possibility of this happening. It would happen slowly. They would feel an increase in the sense of liberation from all the stuff that kept distracting them and holding them back, you know,

[25:58]

as they got rid of these... slowly rid of these behaviors, say, you know, just an obsession with possessions, and they were finally able to say, ah, let them go, you know? Great stories. You guys have probably heard. They sound kind of improperful, but about a robber coming into a cave and stealing the one thing that the monk loved, which might be a beautiful Bible, and instead of him trying to defend it, he'd help him load it up into his hat and pat him on the back, and then pretty soon, the robber would go down the road and say, oh, man, I've got to go try and get peace. And you have a new, you know, one of the most famous desert fathers, Moses, was a murderer. I believe it was Moses, who became one of the great elders, you know, and he had killed more than one person, but he brought up against this. It's like, you can't resist the truth of what you're seeing. It's not a logical thing. You just see it, you know? So, they believe that this peaceful place existed,

[26:59]

but only after one had finally given up his own will, essentially, and done that thing we were talking about, as fully as possible, surrendered to God, not in a passive way, as you were worried about a little bit, but in an intentional way. I am here, God, use me. Everything that I can possibly do for you, I will do, even if I'm scared to do it, you know, and to rest entirely in the promise of God then, in humility. I mean, that's why humility was such a big deal. Dave, you were bringing that up yesterday. And then finally, what did it mean for them to give oneself and love? Well, they had a whole array of kind of stages along the way that had to be done, but what's your guess? What's the first thing you have to do if your intent is to love as fully as you possibly can? What do you have to banish almost immediately from your life? Yourself.

[28:00]

Well, that's a big one. How about starting with a single passion? What would you banish, need to at least start dealing with? Pride. Pride's huge, and pride, yes, that's in there. Their assumption was that by the time you were getting able to do this, you had reached humility. So you weren't dealing so much with pride anymore, which is essentially inability to even care what other people think. Attachment to things. They've kind of done that now. They're at humility. They've released themselves. Now they're trying to love like Christ loves. Judgment comes to mind. Okay, judgment is certainly on our list. Yeah, judgment, and I want to make some distinctions here because we're used to thinking of, well, people get riled when we talk about not judging, being nonjudgmental, and there's a spectrum of how it gets interpreted in our time,

[29:02]

and one extreme end of the spectrum is simply, we just can't make any moral judgments at all. We just have to accept everybody, everything, however they are, no matter how they live. We're just not even going to deal with the moral implications or spiritual implications of what they're doing, and that constitutes not judging. On the other end of the spectrum are people that get all huffy if they think they're not allowed to have a negative thought about a careless driver next to them or whatever because, hey, if we don't stand up for what's right, nobody will ever straighten up. And I think it's important to distinguish between judging, as Jesus meant it, because he said, Judge not that ye may not be judged. I'm pretty sure, and you can back me up on this or not, that he's referring to passing or condemning someone else from a position of moral superiority, or assumed moral superiority, that somehow or another, I'm good and they're bad.

[30:06]

Not seeing us, like we're talking about, as all this disfigured soul that's in need of mercy and grace. And that discernment is a whole different ballgame. Discernment is in love being able to look at somebody and what they're doing with their lives. You came here, Ryan. These guys took one look at you, and they discerned some things. They said, in love, how can we help this guy? How can we help him? And they probably had to point out a few things to you. In love, and so in a sense, they're passing their kind of judgment, but it springs from love, rather than this position of moral superiority. I hope that this is a helpful comment. But it's an observation I've made of myself since I came here. I found that I was incredibly judgmental. I mean, in ways that I didn't even notice. And I thought about it, and I said, all right, now I could be really judgmental about myself,

[31:08]

condemning, right? Or I could just look at it, and I said, well, you know, when you buy something, you know, you need to buy some aspirin to succeed. Centrium, there's a generic brand, there's Addison, whatever, and you have to make a judgment. And I just found that knowledge, just because I know a lot of things. I've had a lot of experiences. But I was just, this isn't right. Nothing was right. Shoes aren't right. Why is she like that? Look at her hair. Why is she dressed in that way? This is ridiculous. Why are they having this opinion? And I couldn't believe this. I mean, just an incredible array of judgments and condemnations that makes me me. See, I'm not being me. Look at these pitiful people. You know, and I didn't think it was that bad. But, you know, you spend time in your cell, and you're kind of cut off

[32:09]

from a lot of things that are going on. And I started to realize just how extensive it was. I mean, to everything, trees aren't right, nothing was good enough for me. And I said, who in the world are you? You know, I became, forget about Christ, I became the king of the universe. So, really? I mean, I was really quite taken aback by realizing this. What does that come from? You know, because my sense of self, of who I am, is based on the fact that this isn't good enough, that it won't work, they don't know what they're talking about. And I said, priest, what kind of thing is this? And just, okay, calm down. Because you're about to do the same things to yourself. Yes, exactly. So we need to be very aware, and that's called scrupulosity, or can it become scrupulosity? Where it's a constant self-condemnation, and it goes even worse places than condemning others. Because you wind up in total self-hatred.

[33:11]

You can't even operate, you get paralyzed. And that's why people got nervous about judgment, because they felt like it would lead to this sort of obsession with one's sin. And no, it's a much gentler kind of realization. Sort of shocking, right? And you just did what Catherine was talking about. You tried something. You listened to your thoughts. And wow, what did you discover? You know, you didn't even realize that, did you? Until you had time to start listening to that. That would be what they would call watching the thoughts. Seeing what floats through. And when I do that, I just realize how much comes from fear. I remember one example, which I hate to use, but it's so personal. I'll look at somebody who's very overweight. And I think, gee, how did that happen? And I think, well, gee, you used to weigh 40 pounds less or 30 pounds less than this, and it's really easy.

[34:12]

Somehow I plateaued here for today. But gee, so now I try and catch my thoughts and say, wow, I know how hard it is not to eat too much and get caught in not being able to exercise because you don't feel, and all that stuff. And there are days I have to catch myself much more often than I'm going to. But it helps me see the world in a much more loving place. Because my fear is that I'll keep eating, and I'll get another 20, another 30, another 40. That's the fear part. But the love part is, wow, it's hard. It's hard. Especially when you're raised in a family that's kind of similar to me, and you've got this stuff. Dostoevsky, who writes about some of the most twisted souls you ever want to think about. If you want to really bring yourself down, read some Dostoevsky. I love him, because I think he sees into the human condition so deeply, and he was such a tortured person himself.

[35:14]

But he believed that the basis for brotherhood was a recognition that my sin, that we are both sinners. That's the connection with brotherhood, is that we are both sinners before God. And that allowed him to actually love to the extent Dostoevsky ever could love. I'm having a hard time in a real rough upbringing. So judging would be, you know, in the sense of from a morally superior position would be really big for them. Anger was where they started. Just generally anger. They were totally convinced that anger completely blocks prayer. We can't pray if we're angry, especially at somebody, because the image of that person, they said, will rise up in front of us every time we try to calm our mind and pray. And get in touch with God, if there is that person, you know. And so it's learning how to not respond automatically in anger too,

[36:16]

which is really what you're talking about here, you know. And that's a tough one. And so anger extended to things like a practice of just immediate forgiveness. I mean, don't even, you probably remember the famous story. Some years ago, it was a very sad story in the Amish country where that gunman went in and shot, I don't know, what was it, 10 children in the classroom. And the media was just shocked out of their boards when the Amish community went straight over to the home of the widow, because this guy had shot himself, the widow of the murderer, and brought food to her, told her they totally forgave, that she was, there was no anger, and they wanted her to have their support. They would get money from people because they shared it with her. And, you know, nobody knew what to do. Some people got really upset with that, and they said, you're not respecting those dead children by forgiving. Wow.

[37:16]

But so forgiving would have been an automatic thing they had to do. No retaliation, no matter how sneaky. We go our ways, don't we? And then, finally, they moved into the zone that sounds very Buddhist, but total compassion for everything, including creatures. You know, and there are these famous stories of some elder meditating in a viper, you know, kind of weaving its way between his legs, and he just keeps on praying and preaching. And this little viper's all curled up asleep next to him. You know, stuff like that. But to treat humans, and so that meant, when they saw somebody committing a big sin, especially one of their disciples, that their first response was, that poor guy. Because look at the road he's heading down.

[38:17]

How can I lovingly stop him from going there? Or how can I cover this so that he doesn't die of shame later? You know, sometimes even, I'll take the blame for what he just did. So, yeah, so that nobody, that he doesn't have to suffer that deeply for what he, because I know where he's headed with this. So, really fascinating stories in that light of how. Can you tell me the word you said that that is? Everyone's life, it's tennis face up. So what is that? What did you call that when people do what you just described? What was the word you said? You don't need to explain that. I just didn't get your picture. Compassion. Is it under compassion? Deep compassion, but it's coupled with discernment. You know, their ability to see spiritually what this guy just, the step he just took off the cliff, essentially. The spiritual cliff. And instead of condemning him morally for that, or saying, get him out of here, we can't have him in our monastery because he's too bad of influence. I will cover for him and then try to, in some way or another,

[39:19]

get him to see and help him. Even to say, you know, if you can't deal with this sin, I'll carry half of it on my back. And they would have conversations like that. A young guy would say, I can't deal with my sexually tempting dreams and visions, and the old guy, I'll carry half of it on my back. And the young guy would feel relief, because someone was bearing his burden, you know. So really deep compassion and tenderness. I mean, I think there are two leaps. Tender in the sense of physically tender. You know, helping the sick and being gentle. People, they had so much traffic out there of, you know, folks that would want to come out and see what they were up to and try to learn from them. And often they would be pre-beginners. I mean, they might not even know what they were doing. They were just curious out there, whatever. But pretty often the elders would give up their ascetical practice to serve a meal. They might be fasting that day,

[40:20]

but they would spread a meal and eat, because it was more important to show tenderness, compassion, and charity than it was to keep to their rigorous practice. So that was their view of love, and there's a whole lot of other stuff in there about that. Any comments or questions about that? I don't want to get us going too long here. Yeah, maybe just a couple more minutes, and then we'll let you guys go a bit. I came up with like five practical things that we might just look at as something doable in our time. The first one was that they were totally guided by Scripture and the words of their elders. Can we do that, too? Well, okay, the Scripture part, maybe. Where are we going to find the elders? Aside from going to Janet and Catherine.

[41:21]

Where are we going to find those elders? We might not find the kind they were talking about too often, but a sincere search for them through praying and hanging around places where you're likely to find them. Despite how emaciated and crazy and radical you guys are, according to Rebekah. But what we do have in our era, which obviously for centuries nobody had, because this is all pretty recent, we've got tons of translations of the words of the actual elders. I mean, we can sit here and read all this. For centuries that was completely obscure stuff. It wasn't out of the original languages. So that's important, doing that kind of reading and try to hear it through our modern eyes. Second, they believe that their own transformation depended on praxis, P-R-A-X-I-S, which just means practice. Hearing the word and then doing it.

[42:26]

Can we do that too? Can you practice turning down your cheek? He's looking at me like... Every time you hear that in scripture, at least for me, I walk out of church or wherever I am thinking, more motivated to try to do whatever it is I heard. So the answer is, can you? Well, we'll have to see what happens when the rubber meets the road. But one is, you make the determination that you will. That's right. You try. In your little baby step way, you try. Sell all you have and give it to the poor and then follow me. In our day of stock portfolios and IRAs, and you know, ooh, you're kidding me. I'm supposed to do that, but what can we start with?

[43:27]

So it's taking it these little steps at a time. Let's see. Oh, okay. These guys had these sort of highly developed spiritual practices, which they called their Ascesis, or their practice, like don't have any room to write it right, A-S-C-E-S-I-S. Can we find our own forms of that in our circumstances? We don't live inside a monastery, but most of us are either in a family situation where we have spouses and kids and all that kind of stuff, or we're living in, we're operating in a work community, whatever. Can we start consciously developing an Ascesis? For example, Janet, you were talking about how someone at work really bugged you. And her Ascesis with that began, I am going to see if I can stop being bugged.

[44:28]

And how did you do it? I started praying for that person, even though I didn't want to pray for them. It was hard to pray for them at first, and it gradually got easier, and it changed my heart, for that person. She's pretty much still the same, but it just doesn't bother me at least. You might even say you love her now, in a weird way. Yeah, I do. Because you can see what she's done, and you can see how miserable she's making herself and others. And that's sad, isn't it? It is. Yeah, it is. So that's what I'm talking about, finding, you know, I had a real wake-up call a few weeks ago. My husband had a knee replacement, a complete knee replacement. And he's a very active human being, and he's usually, you know, on our 4-acre, he's buzzing all over Creation. All of a sudden, he was down for the count, and he couldn't do much of anything for a couple of weeks. And so I was running around doing everything, and all of a sudden I realized, something's been misplaced here. I can't find it. And I heard myself automatically saying,

[45:31]

Mike must have left it out. And I went, oh, he's lying in bed with a leg the size of, you know, it can't be him, so therefore, what do I do on a daily basis when it comes to my relationship with my spouse? He's a convenient, what, dumpster, right? So my eschasis then became, I've got to stop, automatically pin and stuff. I'm like, no wonder he feels cackled, you know, poor man. Okay. The Desert Fathers, number three, were very focused on renunciation and detachment as a path to spiritual freedom. They lived in voluntary poverty. They moved at the drop of a hat if the need was real. They tried to live from day to day. Can we do that too? Maybe not so radically, right? But in a way, yes. You know, the capacity for, you know,

[46:32]

immediate availability to other people. That is something that is in extremely short supply in this world. We're often, even when we're talking to people, we're thinking about what's happening in the next ten minutes or we're pulling out our phone or whatever. What we're going to be late for. Right. But to give someone else some moments of undivided attention, you know, that's bringing the kingdom into the here and now. That's no small thing. It's no small thing. I think we delude ourselves because it seems like we're immediately available to anyone except the person that we're sitting with. Yeah. And that's my favorite part. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's this delusion that there's some kind of quality if someone talks to you about if you want a latte. It supersedes. Yeah. The pain in the other person's face

[47:33]

you're looking at, right? Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's really, that's a good point. Yeah. In the years of working in Catholic schools and trying to get people to volunteer to do things, you know, people would rather write a check than give up their time. Time seems to be the most precious and shortest supply of things. Right. So to give even moments of that undivided attention is a huge gift. It's transformative. For you, you know, and the person. Exactly right. Yeah. Yes. One of the things I've found becoming a widow, being alone now, and also this accident that I had is that I, with the grace of God, I want to change myself is that when things happen to other people, people will say, will call me if you need something. And I have found how difficult that is

[48:34]

because you really, you need somebody who's just going to come in your face and say, can I borrow your lawn? Can I do your dishes? Show up. Yeah, show up. And I know I've done it too, I'm not casting stones, but this has been like a new awareness of the triteness of, or even, well, I'll pray for you. Yeah. You know, well, how about if you lay hands on me right at this moment? Yeah. You know, just the immediate, you know, dealing with the person who's sitting in front of you. And this is, you know, the last couple years of what I've gone through, it has dramatically changed me in that way. Which says something about the power of suffering. Yes. As a transformative thing. You know, it made me think what you just said, one of our daughters had major scoliosis, and at the age of 25 was told if she did not get this big, huge surgery on her back, she would be in a wheelchair by the time she was in her 40s. You know, she was getting so hunched.

[49:35]

So she decided to go for it. She's terrified, of course. And a day or two, probably the day, morning after the surgery, the next day, when she was starting to come out of all the drugs and everything, she had 11 inches fused of her spine. It was a big surgery. Wow. of the spine clinic in LA. And I came in there and she was lying there and tears were just streaming down. I said, Kelly, are you hurting? And she said, no, I'm not in pain. She goes, but I'm just thinking of how many years I have not even noticed when other people are suffering. That's what it was. And it just hit her like a ton of bricks, you know, so. When my husband got the diagnosis of cancer just a few months ago, I was in Costco online and people were laughing and talking like everybody does, and I had this rage that came up in me of, you know, how can people be happy? You know, it just felt like my husband's dying, you know, all within myself. And then it was like the Holy Spirit just fell on me and the Lord said, look around, you know, I'm here to save you.

[50:35]

And he said that nine out of 10 of the people that I was looking at in line, behind me, around me were suffering as bad, if not worse, than I was. And it was just like, yeah, it was eye-opening. I never forgot that experience. That was a graced moment for you. That was one of those insights that strikes that doesn't come through yourself. The Desert Fathers aimed at achieving the kind of purity of heart that would allow them to love as Christ loved. Can we do that too? I think we've already been talking in this direction. Right? Because my note here is that we can turn ongoing suffering that cannot be changed into a crucible for this kind of purification of the heart. You just told a perfect story. We can consciously watch our thoughts and guard our hearts, you know, just like we've been saying. And then, finally,

[51:38]

I think this is the last one, the Desert Fathers believed they were living in apocalyptic times and thus were constantly aware of their own deaths and the reason they were undergoing all these trials. Can we do this too? Yeah, what kind of times are we living in? Easy peasy, as they say. No, it's not. Yeah, no, I was joking. These are very, very difficult times at so many levels. Every time you turn around, it seems. We may actually be in the first time in history, human history, that humans actually have the ability to destroy the earth in a multiple, you know, multitude of different ways. In the near future. In the near future. So we, of any generation, are living in what could be seen as apocalyptic times. So instead of letting that drag us down or make us feel, you know, despairing

[52:38]

and become nihilistic about life or whatever, we can try to get the meaning out of that for the here and now and what we're headed for. And think about the new heaven and the new earth that's talked about in Revelation. You know, another thing, another, you know, important practice is to smile. You know, I mean, you don't necessarily get the sense that the dead fathers did that, but I'm sure they did. I'm really sure that they did. You know, that great line when Jesus looks at someone in love, you know. I mean, you can add those descriptions in the book of us monks, you know. But, you know, to smile and mean it, I mean, that does things in people's lives. And we can only smile and mean it if we've done our own work too. So, because otherwise, I'm reading a novel now and, you know, they say, this author likes this particular phrase, the person smiles but the smile doesn't make it

[53:39]

to the eyes. So, how to, you know, to experience and share, you know, joy with one's whole body, you know, for others, just a huge difference. There's a theologian, I think he's dead now, Donald Nichols, who talks about the theology of faces. Yes, yes. And I think that's what Pope Francis right now has going as his face has become a kind of icon for people of, you know, Franciscan love, you know. And, so, that's all I have to say. And it's probably 10, or, yeah, 10, probably. 9.59. The Quiet Days that we have a tent, we're starting again in the Northern California area. Oh, yeah. In Santa Cruz area and people come from Berkeley and all over. So, if you have any interest in being included when we have those, do you want to

[54:39]

just stop by and give me your name and email address or something and make sure you include more people. And I maybe shouldn't say this without checking with V first, but, I guess I will. I mentioned it one-on-one to somebody, but our group in San Luis probably five years ago began booking the hermitage for one weekend a year and coming up as a group, an oblate group, so that the whole place is us. And that way we are able to connect and spend some time together walking down the road and stuff, things that we don't normally get to do, but we also have a retreat with one of the monks. So, that may be another option if your group is large enough to do that. Is there a way to find out where oblates are in San Diego? I'm just wondering if there are any in that part. The list, the big list. Is Charmion still doing that? Yeah. Okay. So, Mike Millard would be

[55:39]

a contact person. Yeah. And Donna, Donna Dorn. Donna Dorn. Robert Gerstie. He's often gone traveling. A lot. Yeah. And I think he's still involved. There's a number of good people down there. Put that on Wendy's list and the question about that and I can get back to you in 10 minutes. And there's the Yasu group also that people kind of contact each other or you know ask for prayers and that's another you know way to kind of say goodbye. Now some of you will have noticed in your cells it's a newsletter and in the newsletter there is this letter by Thea Desjardins a Jesuit theologian called Patient Trust in Ourselves and the Small Work of God. It's a wonderful letter that has great applications and so I just I made a bunch of copies of that here so if you

[56:39]

want to take that with you some of you may not have the newsletter and you're welcome to take that with us too but thanks to Paula and all the people that she brings as well. She is a great lover of the desert tradition and not only that but she also lives it herself so that really comes through. No, no. And thanks to all of you for coming and being with us this weekend. We those of us that do these retreats we really enjoy doing that and especially glad to see those who have been here before to see you again and especially glad to see people who are here for the first time. you're always in our prayers and know that and I hope that as you leave here today or tomorrow you take a piece of this place in your heart with you and

[57:40]

come again when you can and thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for being so open and sharing too. That's what made this work you know and appreciated that. If you borrowed a piece of put it on the table and you take it heart and

[57:57]

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