We finished the four foundations of mindfulness, four awakenings, which I think we can do to some extent, at least. I'd be happy to have some discussion with you about anything at all or anything we've spoken about so far. Und ich wäre sehr glücklich darüber, wenn wir eine Diskussion miteinander darüber haben könnten, worüber wir gesprochen haben, oder auch über irgendwelche anderen Dinge, die ihr gerne ansprechen möchtet. Und ganz besonders von jemandem, der noch nichts gesagt hat. Everything is completely clear.

[01:10]

Yes. So until now I only heard about the mindfulness of the body and I would like to know more about the rest of them. Oh, yes, that's what I said. We invite you. I always enjoy the discussion so much. What? Yeah. Yeah. Last month I was in China, and we were traveling around a bit, and suddenly I read that there was a cultural conflict.

[02:33]

So, my father stopped, and he was talking about it, and he said, And I thought, oh my God, did we take too long. That was so eerie. And what we did, we went into the room, and did the business area, came up close, the dresses were in the bathroom, and the parents were outside. And that's what we did, and we had to get out of the room, and so we broke up, and we had to take a bus, and we had to get out of the room. And I thought, oh, they're so smart that they have re-changed the time. That is . You know, we listen to all this unfamiliar, and now it's just another energy-driven space again. You know, the space . Thank you.

[03:38]

Yeah, one time I drove across the western United States. From San Francisco to the Bighorn Mountains in Wyoming. Where Trudy Dixon, who I edited... Zen Mind Beginner's Mind with. Had an old ranch of several generations that stretched the whole length of the Bighorn Mountains. And I don't know, I can't remember why Trudy had cancer and died at 29. But I don't remember if she had cancer yet, but anyway, we decided that she should see the West, at least, something like that. So we drove, you know, it takes some days to do it.

[05:21]

And we stopped in some small, tiny, you know, western cowboy town. And in those days, you know, I mean, that part of the world, they never saw a Japanese man. And certainly not one in robes. And I remember when I first was ordained, Tsukiroshi asked me to wear my robes all the time for at least a year. Well, in 1964 or 5 in California in Watsonville, was I a sight.

[06:37]

A shaved head, but no one had shaved heads. Seemingly looked sort of like a man. But large black dresses with white straps. But large black dresses with white straps. I got used to it. But in this cowboy town we stopped in a kind of bar. To find a toilet. To find a toilet. So there was a long line of cowboys not waiting for the toilet, just sitting at the bar.

[07:48]

So this very odd group came in and sat down at a table in the front window. And then Tsukiroshi started across the down the length of the bar to the toilet at the far end. And as he was walking, the entire bar. And soon as he absolutely just started pulling up his robes halfway up the bar. One layer after another. And he was completely ready by the time that you opened the door. And so he went into the toilet and closed the door.

[08:58]

He might not have closed the door, he might have left it open, being Japanese. Yeah, so I thought, well, let's distract the situation. Well, I went out with a jukebox and put a coin in. And I played sugar bunny. And out came Suzuki Roshi with dropping his rose dancing. He was trying to be with it, you know. And now the cowboys were just kind of like... I like to be in lines, actually.

[10:06]

I haven't enjoyed this at practice. I like to be in lines, like a long grocery line or something. And if I'm not in a terrible hurry, I try to have no feeling that I care where the line ever moves. So sometimes I choose one of the longer lines. And I just stand there, and this person's in front of me, and this person's behind me, and pretty soon we have a little conversation. And in German, I figure out something, too. Mm-hmm. Someone else?

[11:17]

Yes. A question going back to the beginning of the prison, when you told the story of Basho finding the baby, and for cultural, in a cultural context, he's not taking it. And another story, Paul Rosenblum told us once about this monk living in a village, I don't know who. Hakuin. Yes, Hakuin. And a girl, a farmer's daughter, accusing him for being the father of a newborn baby. And so he said, okay, I take it. And he took it and then he had it for some time. And after... Sometimes the girl confessed to her father he was... Was really Tommy down the street, yeah. Yeah. And so we said, they went to him and then took it and said, okay. And so I think this is another attitude, more about accepting whatever comes along.

[12:20]

Yeah. Supposedly Hakuin was just that story. Maybe... who wandered on the streets and found a abandoned baby, and did not accept it in the cultural context, because there was a reason that the baby lay there, the village community had decided that it should be put away. And he didn't know exactly where to go. He always says poor baby, you have to go on. And another story that Paula Rosenblum told, from Hakuln, There was a monk who lived near the village and the daughter of a farmer was expecting a baby and because her father was not well known, she blamed him for being the father's honor.

[13:31]

She then brought the baby to the village. Yeah, probably, I imagine this teenage girl gets pregnant And, you know, you're supposed to marry the right person in the village so that the farmer's fields are correctly distributed and all that. So the father probably figured out already what farm he wanted, so... He was probably pretty angry.

[14:38]

So he said, who's the father? And she said something equivalent to Jesus did it. And so they all knew it wasn't true. And so they bring the baby up just to make her confess. Thinking Hakuin would say, are you crazy? So Hakuin knew exactly what was going on. He said, oh, thank you, I took the baby. So then a new problem was caused. It must have been a problem. They didn't have formula in those days.

[15:39]

How did he feed this kid? Some versions of the story have him with the baby six months, but I can't believe that. So anyway... The girl confessed it, or the boy confessed it. Okay, so... Oh, I understand. Yes. Yes. I have a question concerning this not interfering into things that appear.

[16:58]

Because I ask myself in my experience what I am connecting to that. Yeah, and what comes up is that there are certain situations which are uncomfortable or uneasy. Yes. So that I have somehow the impression that in these situations where there's some uneasiness or uncomfortable situation, it's somehow like a mechanism to protect oneself, not to interfere into that. So an example for that would be? Supposedly you have to go to the dentist and you expect a very unpleasant session at your dentist.

[18:16]

Mm-hmm. And before this meeting with your dentist, you are afraid about that and you think of many very unpleasant situations which could be there. Really? And then this moment is there where you have to sit down on this chair. Yeah, I remember. And then suddenly there is such a point where you think or where you tell yourself now it should happen. Let it happen. Yeah. Yeah. And then in this situation, all these scenarios you had, these terrible scenarios you imagined, they just go away.

[19:31]

And a new one appears. And you just let it go. And this is a situation where I think, which is like this not interfering. This would be an example for me. And this also, this is somehow protective for me, it's a protection. And I would be interested whether there is any connection with what you are telling us about this not interfering. Which part of it is a protection? Was davon ist der Schutz? The scenarios of the, everything can let him go. It might be good to have said that in the beginning. Okay, there's two aspects here of Non-interfering, this non-interfering awareness, I can say, or consciousness.

[20:45]

And that's just to be able to observe without interfering in consciousness. or very little interference through the act of observing. And what sounds the same is this, but it's different, which is when things appear, you complete them. And that's rather different. It's not that you intentionally complete, but you are part of the appearance, so you're acting within the appearance. I'm just saying that just in case anybody confused, non-interfering with an actual fact, in appearance, you are a participant.

[21:49]

Okay, so now let me use that as a way to begin with the mindfulness of... Emotions or feelings. Now this is really initially to be mindful of pleasant, unpleasant, and neither. And that's sometimes translated in English as pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. And I think in practice, neither is more accurate. Okay. Now, the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness are meant to be practiced in the order of first mindfulness of the body.

[22:58]

And in the first, in the initial, the practice mindfulness of body and all the ways I've spoken about, you are developing the ability to be mindful, the muscle of mindfulness, the muscle of attention. And you're fine-tuning it so it doesn't interfere, so it's not willed, but... a kind of willingness. And there's a process of... connecting attention with the body, with the breath, with activities and so forth.

[24:21]

You have developed now the ability of attention is connected with the breath, the body. Now it's a strange feeling and a strange aspect I don't know, it seems strange, maybe. Developing the skill to know one's interior space, organs, parts of the body, and so forth. It's a little bit like working in the dark. Because, you know, you can only feel your way into your body. You can't exactly see. Yeah, so it's a kind of, again, exploration in the dark.

[25:23]

And you're not only exploring named parts or identifiable things you can easily identify. You're also moving into areas that you have no conceptual way to conceive, but you can feel. You move outside the territory of names, concepts and so forth. And that helps you in meditation experience too. Because you begin to have experiences that you're not sure any human being, you don't know how to describe them. and you're not sure anybody else has ever had them.

[26:39]

And at this day and age, you might think, Maybe I'm going crazy. And if you're not deeply embedded in the authenticity of your experience, then you can start fearing your own experience. And since it is possible to go crazy, and some people do go crazy, it can be a real fear. And some people practice to find their way out of craziness.

[27:42]

So you have to have a real sense of authentic experience, even if it's not something you're familiar with. So this is also helped by this experience of feeling into the body in the dark. Beyond the graspability of concepts. Okay. No, what I started to say, what seemed somewhat strange, is this ability to feel into one's own so-called dislocation body,

[28:43]

is the same process, same ability to feel other people. Not to think other people. So if I come in here and I want to feel this room, I kind of like, if I look at you, the looking takes over. Because if I sort of tune out my eyes all your bodies come forward and I do feel this rich somatic shared and together created space. Held in the fan of this room. Okay, so now you have this internal territory of mindfulness has been developed. And now what comes in?

[30:18]

Pleasant, unpleasant, and neither. Now, this isn't like and dislike. This is just, you know, if I have a hammer and I hit you, that's unpleasant. Now, the Buddha might have been free from suffering, but he wouldn't have liked to have been hit by a hammer. Are you free from suffering? Oh, no. So we're talking about pleasant or unpleasant. So you practice with noticing what's pleasant and what's unpleasant. And there's not so much difference. Yeah, I don't know.

[31:36]

You know, foods that are unpleasant to a child start being pleasant when you're older. Yeah, I mean, some things are clearly unpleasant. But after a while the neither becomes important. More and more things are neither. Neither is the big space and sometimes within that things are pleasant or unpleasant. That story I've told a number of times, but like your dentist story. If you didn't stand it, I'll tell it again quickly. This person is about 15. They knew his teacher, Gyokujin Roshi. insisted on eating old vegetables and whatever was there.

[32:48]

So these spoiled pickles, they wanted to hide from the Roshi. So they buried them under a tree. And lo and behold. Lo and behold. I don't know how to say it. Four or five days later, in comes Gyokujin with the pickles. And he said to the young monks, four or five of them, he said, boil. Well, even fresh pickles boiled aren't very good.

[33:51]

So, see here, she had all these young Suzuki Shinryu. had all these images of scenarios of how bad it was going to be. So they cooked him and they put him on the table and then they all sat and they watched Gyo Kojin and he... I have to do it, so, you know... And he said, I had my first enlightenment experience. It was just okay and preferences disappeared. Now this is, you know, this could happen to anyone.

[35:08]

But for most of us it wouldn't be an enlightenment experience. What's the difference? He was a religious genius. Probably not. He was not bad though. But mostly it's because he was practicing. The Hauptgrund dafür war, dass er geübt hat. Small things that, you know, a dime a dozen stuff. When you're practicing, suddenly you notice it in such a way that you never are bothered by this again. So ganz kleine Dinge, die er hundertmal erlebt hat, plötzlich erlebt er sie in einer Form, wie er sie nie zuvor erlebt hat. Sometimes I have such... gratefulness and compassion for the translator because I sit here and I kind of say things and I think, he's got to do all the work. I just say something. And then I feel so impressed. How do you do it? I don't know. I could do it. All right. Practice, yeah. Okay. Okay, now...

[36:08]

I was asked earlier, what about the gate of suffering? Well, this is one of the gates of the freedom from suffering. One is there's no anticipation. And you've developed a territory which is mostly neither Neither pleasant nor unpleasant. And there's sensations that, you know, putting needles in you or pulling threads out. Or you had an operation or whatever and it's... I don't know, just a sensation.

[37:33]

And you can kind of abstract the sensation, you can kind of just make it as small as the nerves allow. And 99% of you are just going along as normal, so you just pay attention to that. And your pain or discomfort is, you know, you don't let it flood you. And you learn that too from sitting and often sitting in sashins. And that's something you learn while sitting, and especially while sitting in sashins.

[38:40]

Because in sashins, your legs sometimes hurt quite a bit. Oh yes, that's right, my legs are hurting. Where are they anyway? And sometimes the pain will just disappear for no reason. Why did it disappear? There's some fine-tuning where you're just in a place where... It just doesn't bother you. And it's simultaneously your yearning, learning, to... most of your attention in a deeply settled feeling.

[39:46]

And that deeply settled feeling is so much bigger than the pain. But it Doesn't mean all pain just disappears. You still have to deal with it. Yeah. You know, I still, if I have dental work, I still let them give me an injection. It is more comfortable. And it makes the dentist more comfortable.

[40:55]

But sometimes it's not too big and they don't do it. It's okay. And one of the territories where this is discovered is in this practice of mindfulness where you really notice whether things are pleasant, unpleasant, or a big field of neither. Now, if you don't develop this Freedom from pleasant and unpleasant. That very easily sequences into like, dislike and boring. Yeah, like, dislike and neutral or uninteresting. Or mögen, nicht mögen. And that segues very easily into greed, hate, and delusion.

[42:17]

So you're, in a way, by really emphasizing and noticing unpleasant and pleasant, you're also beginning, you're in the process of freeing yourself from, because I like this, I don't like this, and so on. The next one, the third. Foundation, awakening of mindfulness. Und diese dritte Grundlage, die dritte Grundlage von Achtsamkeit oder vom Erwachen, ist mindfulness of the mind. Ist die Achtsamkeit dem mind gegenüber. And really is mindfulness of means mindfulness of one's states of mind, modes of mind, moods of mind. Und es bedeutet wirklich die Achtsamkeit den Geisteszuständen, den Stimmungen,

[43:19]

Oh, okay, Google. And bringing attention to the activities of the body, all of this has been mindfulness practice, mindfulness of mind. Now, so mindfulness of states of mind is denoted Notice whether your state of mind is greed, hate or delusion. Aggressive or not. Or conveying self or not conveying self. And one of the classic example is like being angry.

[44:22]

And here a teaching is you just notice that you're angered, you don't try to get rid of the anger. That's the secret. Of course you may want to and need to get rid of the anger or something or behave, you know, something. That's fine. You don't want to hit somebody with a hammer. But that's not the practice. The practice is just to notice I'm angry. Yeah, and then I'm more angry. Whoa, am I really angry? Now again, this is easier to practice in zazen because you're still.

[45:38]

Your arms are strapped down. And you learn to sit still in the midst of no matter how angry you get. And a good practice is to exaggerate in zazen, to exaggerate the anger. Say fear comes up and you have a tremendous anxiety attack. When you're really sitting, you say, okay, just get us angry, get us anxious. Anxiety kill me. And just sit there. And usually it passes. It passes.

[46:47]

And somehow it was like a bad wind that went through. Now, if there's some danger with certain kinds of compulsive thinking or certain kinds of anxiety, At least you turn toward it, you don't turn away from it. And if you practice this enough, Let's say anger, more anger, etc. And you're just noticing the anger, you're not trying to stop it. What are you doing? You're creating a space, a feeling, which is not angry. You're creating a space, a feeling, Because the increasing ability just to observe the anger becomes a big space which is not angry.

[47:56]

And at some point you can just take your sense of identification from the anger away and put it in a big space. And at some point you basically don't get angry anymore. Or if you do, it's a way of communicating. Except in spousal relation. Even the Buddha said, this is a territory you can't get free. But... But it gets better.

[49:12]

And the last is mindfulness of the objects of mind. And we've already been doing that. Activities, breath, etc. But here what we're emphasizing is that Every object, every perception points at the object and points back at mine. Yeah, as I've mentioned a number of times, Wittgenstein says, looking at a scene like this, there's nothing in this scene that tells me it's being seen by a mind. I have to remind myself that it's being seen by a mind.

[50:16]

So practice is to finally be reminded that it's always mind. You know, don't just experience the object, you experience your mind. experiencing the object. And this is true of the other five senses too. In Buddhism mind is a sense. So in the most common again is in meditation you hear something but You hear your own hearing of it.

[51:20]

Yeah, and what's striking about it... like these charming beautiful birds that are singing for us or for each other when you really just hear them within the capacity of your own hearing. And you can feel your own hearing of it. The sound belongs to you now, it's not the birds. Oh, you feel inside the birds.

[52:21]

And you feel transparent. The world's passing through you. And it's usually accompanied by a feeling of bliss. A feeling of a taste of the... Sambhogakaya, one of the three bodies of Buddha, the bliss body. The reward body, it's sometimes called. Yeah, the reward for practicing mindfulness so well. So you know when you're there because perceptions are accompanied by a blissful feeling. So this is mindfulness of the mind. objects of mind.

[53:35]

And this also includes mindfulness of the structures which allow us to know The five skandhas, the eight vijnanas, and so forth. All of which are by implication or explicitly speaking about. And the five skandhas more implicitly, but I've talked that so often, you don't need that. So this is the end. And more or less we covered the fourth foundation. Well, we wouldn't want it to be more, would we?

[54:36]

We did pretty well in two and a half days. Yeah. So let's sit for a moment.

[54:40]

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