at all, but you feel the wider location. So such wider senses of mind and what is mind arise through simple practices like the habit of Pausing for the particular. To notice without conceptualizing. As I say, the central act of mindfulness is to notice without conceptualizing. Which is the first step toward also what we call non-duality. A feeling of always present connectedness and intimacy.

[01:07]

It's almost like the whole world is coming up and supporting you all the time. It's like one of those days when you don't know why, but you're walking down the street and everyone smiles at you. Other days, not too many people smile at you. What's the difference? So the fourth foundation of mindfulness, I can still count, non-conceptualizing but counting, is mindfulness of dharmas, which is

[02:09]

which means mindfulness of how mind and phenomena interact. So, practicing something like the four foundations of mindfulness develops your ability to notice mind and phenomena. and generates mind, just as thinking generates consciousness, thinking generates the continuity, the continuum of consciousness. Non-discriminating generates the continuum of awareness. So the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness literally generate, develop, open up the mind, areas of the mind we didn't know.

[03:27]

And give us the sense of knowing what is reality. We don't say what is reality, what is mind. We feel reality or actuality. Yeah, yeah, so that's enough for now. And we're supposed to take a break about now, I think. Or even before. Eight minutes before four. And I would like you, of course, you know, to meet in small groups after we have the break. I don't know.

[04:44]

You can figure out how many. Go through the nursery school process of counting, you know. Oh, okay. And perhaps you can discuss whatever you like. But I would suggest you discuss your own practices. Mindfulness works in little, as I say, homeopathic doses. But it really works when it's continuous. And it's the constancy, the continuity of mindfulness which begins to transform mind.

[05:46]

So how successful are you at that? That's a kind of popular conversation. And maybe you could speak about any sense of knowing without discriminating. Thank you for translating. How many groups do we want to do? Not too big groups? No. Good. Then six groups. Then I suggest, like in kindergarten, we count from one to six. And start. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

[06:48]

Thank you. Oh.

[09:36]

Some of you are beginning to float toward the back. I understand the feeling, but still. I think we ought to decide what time we end this afternoon. In Johanneshof, we used to end late in the afternoon, but the Berlin people always had to leave by one or so, so we began to end around one or so. But the Berliners are here, and they don't have to leave so early.

[11:35]

So what time do you think we should end, like yesterday? By or so, or should we end early? That's okay for everyone? Around five, like yesterday? Okay. We'll see what happens, but maybe. I never know what's going to happen. This is a, you know, doing a seminar is a kind of ritual for me. It has a beginning and end and a middle. And I, as you may observe, kind of... want but don't know quite what to say.

[12:51]

But want to find out what to say with you. And so first I have to kind of develop some kind of Feeling together with you. And share some kind of basic teachings or approaches. Then I have to see if the combination leads me into something new. Maybe it has. We'll see what happens today. Because this sense of a valid cognition, which I've been speaking about, is to know the world without thought covering, but more because each moment or the world is always unique,

[13:57]

and singular. The most genuine valid cognition is one which produces new knowledge, something that's never thought of before. So if I know You're here and you're sitting and I have this, what's going to happen? I have to see if I can be in a place where something new might come up. Yeah, and that's how I... develop a teaching within myself and within our Sangha. Funny, but if I go back into the 70s when I gave, I basically said the same thing.

[15:12]

But it was less fuzzy. Less little feelings connecting things. And I said similar things, but I didn't understand them as well. Now I understand lots of the surround better. Yeah, okay. Now, of course you know I'd like to hear your fuzziness. Some report. of your experience in the small group, or others, or whatever.

[16:27]

I never know if everyone really reports, but I'll talk to your honesty. No one's behind the pillar. So please, someone. Yes, oh, I pay him to be the first one. I pay him to be the first one. One aspect I remember in our group that several people had difficulties to see the separation between experiencing mind and experiencing bodily, in a bodily way or in a mental way.

[17:46]

Mental way, yeah. The more I can gather my awareness in my body, the more complete I develop my bodily feeling. The more I develop my bodily feeling, the more I develop my bodily feeling. The more parallel to this develops my experiencing mindness, so to say. Yeah, okay, that's true. movements of non-corrected perception, for example when riding a motorcycle or something like that, that even moments, the feeling that the world flows into it, but only always small moments. I think that everyone in the group can do that, and if you have the opportunity to live it out, you can do something.

[18:49]

Some people said they had experiences like driving a motorbike and when the world flew in you were sort of this uncorrected noticing, but when they tried to expand this or extend this, it disappeared. Yeah, that's why people climb melting glaciers and things. We have a heightened state of awareness. Okay. Here, I give you a little less then. Okay, who else? Noch jemand? Wir waren in unserer Gruppe an, also, glaube ich, so ziemlich am gleichen Thema. Wir haben mal versucht zu sagen, wo jeder die Erfahrung von Sein ohne Gedanken gemacht hat.

[19:56]

In our groups we were probably at a similar kind of experience, trying to talk about being without having thoughts. the Buddhist teaching of the skandhas, and where I personally would like to ask Roshi to say a little more about it today, the connection of sensual perception and also to thoughtlessness, because sensual perception happens through the body. It was about noticing with the senses. We found a connection to the skandhas, where Dagmar would ask you to, if possible, talk about a little bit.

[21:04]

Do you think so? Connected to the... without thoughts, because these standards are part of the bodily being of the person. And that was a quite interesting part of the discussion, I thought, because each one had different standards involved with these moments of thoughtlessness. Well, I'm very happy that the Skandhas are useful to you. It's probably the most useful teaching I've found for practicing with you. But how much I'll talk about it again, I don't know today.

[22:05]

But certainly what you're noticing in the... Being able to experience yourself through the different skandhas is a big step in feeling the structure of mind and being. You can think of all these teachings as ways to notice how we exist and then ways through that to further articulate and clarify how we exist. Okay, someone else? Our group, the main theme was the host mind.

[23:08]

And we mainly talked, the largest thing talked about it, what brings us out of the host mind. We mentioned strong emotions like fear and anger. And also when you have an engaged discussion with people and this also could bring us out of this mind?

[24:14]

Of course. In the practice or in the house mind? And how we could, through practice, get into host mind. And there are different ways in everyday life to have probably some ways, rituals to get into host mind. In the Arbeit. To have, for example, a ritual, how to start work wherein the intention is the main thing.

[25:20]

Okay, that's better. Thank you. Yes? My upper axis is already manipulated, but I would like to ask you something else. My group already articulated itself, but still I wanted to ask something. Oh good, please. Perhaps it's too questioned, yes, that in the morning I had a visit from a guest here. And the question which follows from that is, is the guest disturbing or can he help the host? This guest who has visited me brought up the question if you can compare the host to an Australian Aborigine.

[26:51]

As long as he doesn't have a cooking pot. That's not true. Something colors, of course. Yes. The other example about the Aborigines is that they are good shepherds. They can't count with one look. They know the whole scene. These are my two questions. Well, I don't see how they're questions. They were interesting, but I don't see how they're questions. So what specifically is the question? The question at the house was that if you can compare host mind with this kind of shepherd.

[28:08]

Oh yes. Well, you know, they did some, they've done this in Russia too, but I remember just now one done in China. Or children. could read kanji characters with the elbow or their buttocks or under their arm. And it seemed to be mostly kids sort of 12 to 17 or 18, and after that they usually couldn't do it. And it makes me think of a strange experience I had, but actually partly...

[29:11]

led me to practice. Inside a stack of papers, I was working in a warehouse. I didn't want any intellectual jobs. And I was, some of them had 65 pages and some of them had 68, some 70 or something. Three or four types. So the extra pages were graphs and I could flip through and see whether it had three graphs or no graphs, et cetera. And I suddenly realized after about doing five or six of them, that as soon as I touched the paper, I knew how many pages were there. First I gave a mechanistic explanation to it.

[30:29]

Maybe my thumb is feeling the weight of a different number of pages. But perhaps it could be more like these Chinese kids I could somehow see with my hand. And what I discovered was I had to do it quickly. If I thought about it, I couldn't do it. As soon as I touched it, I was right. Every time I just touched it and put it in the pile, I put it in the right pile. And what they found with these Chinese kids, for example, is they could learn to do it. They could have a little bit of ability to do it, and if they trained, they'd get better at it.

[31:31]

You know, and it's also, I know that supposedly there's ancient knowing in Australian Aboriginal communities of the rings around Saturn. And they had no telescopes, so no one understands how they knew this in their design. But then there were some astronauts who claimed they could see a train while they were circling the earth. And the eye doctor said, you can't see, your eye can't... isn't capable of such resolution.

[32:35]

And the astronauts said, well, we think we saw it. And they checked the train schedule. Right in Texas, there was the train. They also, just another anecdote, supporting your non-counting the sheep. I was very impressed when I saw this, I told you a number of times, this little blonde white girl and this aboriginal girl brought up to a log which had about 50 or 60 things piled on it. Ich war sehr beeindruckt, als ich das mal erlebt habe, wie ein eingeborenes Mädchen und ein blondes, also reißes Kind zu zwei Baumstämmen gefolgt haben, auf denen verschiedene Sachen angeordnet waren.

[33:37]

to the log and just brushed everything off the log. And they asked the little white girl to put them back. no idea how to put them back the way they were. Two or three things she put back. And she just went, boop, [...] like she had a Polaroid picture in her head, like a CIA agent, boop, boop, boop. She put it all the way back. That's clearly a different mind than we have. But it seems that we all have sort of potential like this. But the culture denies or supports them. And then if it supports them, you can develop them.

[34:46]

So I would say they're in the territory of this kind of knowing the field of mind, not the contents of mind. But they support and develop this mind from birth, basically. So we discover this mind through practice, but we only develop it to some extent. because these capacities can be trained once you have the experience of them and the permission to notice. That's not to say one capacity is better than the other, but having access to more of your capacities is better than having access to less.

[35:54]

Okay. There was a sheep who wasn't there in the group yesterday. There was a sheep who wasn't in the group? Relating to the sheep in the herd. Oh, I got it. Yeah. Yeah. I had to get Richie and bring him to a birthday party. Oh, so you were the sheep, I see.

[37:08]

I'm glad you weren't sheepish about admitting it. That's an English joke. Ich hatte, also ich fuhr also Richie zu diesem Geburtstag und ich selbst fuhr auch zu einer Abschiedsfeier. I drove Richie to the birthday and myself I went to a parting party. I had exactly one hour in between just for me. You are a very small group. I didn't actually sit down to meditate, but I thought about host mind and guest mind. And I felt like I wasn't out of the group at all.

[38:26]

I was just out in my body. Difficult to say, but actually I was physically outside the group, but I didn't have the feeling of being outside the group. Thinking about host and guest mind, it was more about, like I know this in meditation, it was more about not, if there is a question, not wanting the answer, but the feeling which comes after the question, the feel. Without doing Zazen, I experienced this feeling after this question about host mind, guest mind, extending.

[39:46]

And the feeling of being already connected. And it was exactly in that hour which I had for myself yesterday. And I tried to get this feeling which developed, which came up, to bring it to this parting party, the Maharsha party. The boy which we saw off went to the Mormons. It was a sad party because the parents didn't understand what he was doing. I don't eat it.

[40:48]

The more and more and so on. I don't care. The boy was a babysitter of Richie and he was about 20. And I was quite connected to him, closely connected. And this feeling that I had with him... So my feeling for him was, well, this is his way and this is a clear way for him. So it became a beautiful departure party for me then. I hope you cheered up his parents. What is the moan-moans? The Mormons? The ones in Utah. In Utah. Oh, the Mormons.

[41:54]

The Mormons. The Mormons. You call them Mormons? Yeah, Mormons. They call themselves Mormons. Mormons. Yeah. Okay, well, I've been there. I didn't join up, though. But you can have several what? No. Okay. I resisted. Okay? No, no, I just wanted to give a sign that your child was raising her hand. Oh, but still, don't you have something to say? You know, in Zen, the tradition is in service, like in the morning, when you do service. I've never actually done it, but... In a heiji they do it, and it's like a shosan ceremony, which is a question and answer ceremony.

[42:59]

So the teacher will be doing the service, you know, and offering incense, and then suddenly he'll turn around and say, Question. And immediately you have to go up and stand there and say, . Then the teacher says, . And then you say, oh, thank you very, very much. And I say, question. And you do that with three or four people, and then you go back and off, for instance. Everybody was like, you know. So I was practicing with you a little bit there.

[44:01]

It's not a failure. It's not a failure. You were going to say something? Great questions about the difference between feeling, bodily feeling and emotions. The understanding of that was different among the group. The question came up, I don't know how, but what is the feeling you have to your daughter, Sophia? As far as I remember, it was my question last time, as far as I remember, we were at the point of distinguishing between concept and feeling, and then suddenly this question arose.

[45:15]

This question appeared between concepts, emotions, feelings, feeling, what? It arose, anyway. Yes, and then we also had the question about the theme being connected with A.R.E.N. One thing was being connected, feeling connected, not only with certain people but all people. For example, if you're working, and this is very demanding work, is this possible at all, or is it probably too much feeling connected

[46:42]

with the other people, or sort of, probably you have to go back a little bit or close off, but being a little consciously in the cognitive thinking realm, sort of to fence yourself off. The example was psychiatric work. Yeah. You know, when you work with intense situation, intense... Yeah, I understand. Limit, border, fence, I don't know what. It was a question that I had with the observation, to observe a feeling, because it was described in meditation that, for example, if the mind notices but does not act with it, My question also was about the observing and the observer.

[47:53]

When you watch or observe the anger that you feel, while being still or meditating, Sometimes I have the question, how is it, how to keep the balance with going with my anger, still observing it, but like in daily life. For me it's also kind of energy, I like sometimes, that I like to use. And so for me it was a little bit of question about the balance, which I... How sinful it sometimes to keep, just to disagree, and how sinful it sometimes to go with it, still observing it, but living it. Yeah.

[48:54]

That's not nice. Yes, I have talked about the theme with the wolf, to observe it in meditation and to let it pass through. I am very confident, but I am also confident to go with the wolf and to use the power to observe it, but also to love it. For me, it is sometimes the question of balance or how much and how much is what. Well, I think once you have the choice, you can experience things in this way. Exactly how you establish the balance is the craft, you, yourself. can play with according to what fits in your culture and what fits in your particular work situation and so forth.

[49:57]

But in general, if we can go release ourselves into other people's space, even in psychotherapeutic situations. This is, I think, to establish this kind of acceptance is, you know, great. But you still have to show you don't lose it. I have a friend who has a really crazy brother. And they drove from San Francisco to New Jersey. And as they were driving, Michael tried to bring his crazy brother into the same world.

[51:05]

And the crazy brother tried to bring Michael into his sane world. What? Michael did pretty well until they crossed the Mississippi. After the Mississippi, all the way to New Jersey, they were both completely crazy. No one was in the driver's seat. Okay. It's about time to have a break, but I haven't heard from all the groups, so some brief reports from the missing groups. I was in the same group like Andreas and I had a remark and noticing without thinking, I found happens all the time. .

[52:30]

And it became clear to me that we should concentrate more on having these intentions. And having the intention to notice it more and more, if not continue. Yes. Another participant, my impression was that another participant had the notion that we should more do something than Leave something or not do something. Sorry. What? I mixed something. Not do something rather than do something. Well, it's better to not do than to do. Yeah? Sometimes, yeah.

[53:49]

Okay. I think he's talking about my opinion. Oh, really? Yeah, okay. I think things happen. And when we stop mixing us up in everything, then it happens. It's a bumper sticker like that. Pardon? Nothing. Go ahead. I don't know if I can explain it. I think it's nothing we do. It's something we don't interfere anymore. We have so much to do. So things can't happen all the time. That's true. Acting, acting, acting. and to organize and put attention to something and I don't know all this stuff and when we can put it away then things happen. I can't express it, I don't know how to express it. That's pretty. He couldn't translate what you said.

[54:54]

No, no, too fast. Ich kann es in Englisch nicht gut ausdrücken und in Deutsch wohl auch nicht. Die ganze Zeit, immer sollen wir irgendwas tun und wir haben so viel gelernt und es geht darum, aufmerksam zu sein und ich weiß nicht, dieser ganze Kram, dabei geschieht es die ganze Zeit und wenn wir nur aufhören, uns da reinzumengen, dann geschieht es. You know, I love not knowing German. Ich liebe es, kein Deutsch zu können. I can practice noticing without thinking very easily. Ich kann dabei wahrnehmen, ohne zu denken, wunderbar leicht üben. I have a very bad ear, so I don't pick up German. And I actually happen to enjoy not understanding. So you're speaking and I just feel you and it's sort of like, what's really happening here?

[55:57]

And then when you translate it all sort of like comes together. Yeah. or something like that. Yeah, and we would say that time isn't linear time ripens. At each moment, time is ripening in a different way. And to let time ripen a situation and not you, that's a kind of intuition or craft. Time arrive or ripen? Ripen. To let time ripen a situation rather than you do the situation. You know, my favorite little Zen poem is sitting quietly doing nothing. Spring comes.

[57:07]

Grass grows by itself. Okay, what else is missing here? My question isn't yet clear to me. I must have to do with this question, what is right and what is wrong? Yes, and I can also rediscover it, for example, when you said that we were doing something all the time. It seems to me that it is, so to speak, wrong to do what we are doing. And I discovered something what Ingo says, this doing very much, my notion is this is something for my question of right or wrong, this is rather wrong or not good to do too much.

[58:17]

And Friday evening it was about the discursive mind, discursive thinking, and the advantage is of course that you can think about what is right and wrong. and host and guest. I'm not there at all, I think it's clear to be there, but I also have a feeling that there is something right and wrong to do with it. I'm not yet clear about host mind and guest mind, but I'm feeling that there is something about right and wrong there too. My question is, can host mind be wrong, but the question doesn't make much sense to me.

[59:46]

I got it wrong. I asked him to repeat it. So what am I hearing now? My question, I ask him to repeat it. Oh, no. Once more. Just say it once more, please. Okay. Richtig oder falsch? Genau. Is Ostmein falsch? Is Ostmein wrong? Can it be wrong? Yeah. This question exists. That's a very good question. Wenn ich sage, nein, Ostmein ist immer richtig. When I say Hausmein is always right, then I would feel funny about it. Yeah, I understand. We tried to sort of gather what you said as a theme first.

[61:11]

And we talked about the four foundations of mindfulness. And we just noticed or repeated that mindfulness is one pillar in the Eightfold Path, Noble Eightfold Path. We didn't actually come to a conclusion, but also the Noble Eightfold Path for me has something to do about this question about right and wrong.

[62:18]

Would I take the noble effort past this, this is right, then probably I would have the feeling that what I do is wrong. Yes. so again my question is what is it about right and wrong and can hostman be wrong okay it's a good title for next year's seminar can hostman be wrong after the break I'll say something after the break I'll say something Anyone else? There's at least two groups still hiding behind the pillar. Yes, Julio.

[63:20]

I have a question. Oh. You used to ask questions every few minutes, and now it's once a day. Okay. When you talk about the record and the small stuff, also your example with the papers, I think it's very interesting. But at the moment, in my life and in the life of people close to me, I realize that periodically there's very big tasks or karmic problems that come up. The practice feels like a break from that. It means, wherever it happens, I can always sit down and, you know, at least relax for half an hour or 20 minutes. But I think that there should be a point where I can actually really solve it in practice.

[64:25]

And I have a feeling it becomes like a Well, maybe chew on it, maybe chew on it, but never chew it up. Yeah, that would be my question, how to actually get the plague to crack. It becomes a tool to solve it instead of just a refuge. I understand. OK. I also have to look at the price. I [...] have to look at the price. Thank you.

[65:32]

So after the break. It doesn't make much difference. Just the music will make a difference. Good evening, sir.

[66:51]

Who's sitting there? Manuel. Oh, in Italy? Didn't say so. Elijah. Does anyone know where Manuel is? Oh yeah, another lunch. We only have half an hour until we break from lunch.

[68:37]

Maybe it's a good time for me to speak to the two questions we had. And if anyone else has something you'd like to bring up and there's time, that's fine too. So actually, I think the two questions are related partly for sure. Can host mind make a mistake, or can host mind be wrong? Depends, of course, what you mean by mistake or wrong. When you say you don't like to say that host mind is always right or whatever.

[69:48]

Is that your guest mind not wanting to say it or your host mind not wanting to say it? Because the guest mind or cultural mind, let's say, You don't say you can't be wrong. It's wrong to say you can't be wrong. The cultural mind. Can't doesn't say I can't be wrong. It sounds like some kind of arrogance. And it's probably a kind of, to say it anyway, it's kind of a hubric overload. And Western morality is rooted in this idea of hubris, pride that goeth before a fall. It's interesting, in Asian culture, as far as I know, they don't have this idea of pride, do it before fall.

[71:09]

In fact, a certain pride in what you're doing is natural and healthy. It doesn't mean that, of course, overarching pride or something doesn't cause problems in any culture. I'm just speaking this way to indicate that we have to look at these things in a number of contexts. So the question, and again, at this level, practice is a craft in which you develop insights and... and let's say yogic skills. But how you mature and apply these insights and skills is really a craft that you have to develop.

[72:10]

But if we get to the essence of it, try to look at the essence of it, more or less, or more, more than less, the host mind doesn't make mistakes. It can't be wrong. Now the question again, wrong by what measure? If the measure is producing karma, then we could say, yeah, maybe it can't be wrong. Now, if you, this sounds complicated, but this is a complicated question, I'm sorry. But if we understand karma not in the general sense, it's kind of bandied about in the West,

[73:27]

But karma results from intentional acts. I often use the example of these two boys in Aspen, Colorado, who killed two old ladies. I mean, older young ladies, it's bad. Both of them. But this is an actual story. These two kids, I don't know, 14 or so, got their father's gun, a friend and one of the kid's father's gun, and they're just shooting up in the air. I don't know how that works in... Iraq and Iran, they're always shooting into the air.

[74:40]

What happens to the bullets? I often wonder. Yeah, it sounds dangerous, that raining lead. But anyway, these two kids shot in the air and the bullets went up and went into the Aspen music tent and killed two women. The father came home, the kids got in the car and they drove off. They have no karma. All they did is shoot into the air. Okay. Well, of course, that's not what happened. They figured out the trajectory and they went and arrested the boys and so forth. So they had the karma of the arrest and their horror at what happened and so forth. Through their own interaction with that process. But they don't exactly have the karma of having murdered somebody.

[76:06]

They didn't intend to murder anybody. Okay, so karma, strictly speaking in Buddhism, arises from intentional acts. It doesn't mean you don't experience All kinds of... effects of your actions that were not intentional. The effects of your actions. But all the effects of your actions aren't called karma. They're just the effects of your actions. Okay. So from the point of view of These two boys, we could say, especially if they drove away, they have no spiritual karma.

[77:11]

Okay, now the nature of host mind If you're self-centered, if you have a lot of self-referential thinking, or conflict, with no host mind, it's very difficult, because that As soon as there's divisiveness, you're back in guest mind. As soon as what? There's divisiveness. One thing against the other or conflict, etc., discrimination. Okay. In that sense, if you act clearly from host mind, you're not producing... Spiritual karma, let's say.

[78:20]

You may be producing social or societal karma. Okay. So we can say, in a sense, host mind is not. We can trust our host mind or big mind here. Okay, now let's go back to the Eightfold Path. The entry, as I've taught it, to the Eightfold Path is right speech. Okay, now... It's in the sense you enter at right speech and go toward right behavior and right views and right intentions and toward right mindfulness, etc.

[79:24]

But you enter in the middle. Or you enter through meditation and mindfulness and then you enter through right speech. Oh, so, and of course there's an idea of right and wrong in these Eightfold Paths because it's called right speech, not called wrong speech. It's better translated actually as perfecting speech because that emphasizes completeness rather than right or wrong. Now, a given in practicing the Eightfold Path is you're bringing attentional awareness to each of the paths. So they're a practice because you bring awareness or attention to each of the paths.

[80:48]

Now the assumed vehicle of attention is breath. Now if you bring breath attention to your speech, You're in effect weaving mind and body together. You spoke about feeling the body and things. I always like, if you say intention, you don't feel much body. But if you say attention, you can feel the word in your body. And surely good. Do you know why you're supposed to say Gesundheit or God bless you? Prost. You know why? Prost. Because your heart tips a beat when you sneeze. In the Middle Ages, your soul escaped for a minute, and you had to say, God bless you, or something, and protect it.

[82:30]

So I was in danger there for a moment, because I almost died. And the Buddhists in yoga culture, they know that too, and... So Dogen calls a sneeze tiny nirvana. I just had a tiny, two tiny nirvanas right in front of you. See if I can have another one. No, no. Okay, so what happens if you join Intentional breath to speech. And speech begins to be part of the weaving together of mind and body.

[83:36]

If mind and body are woven together, together in your speaking, they generate what's called a truth body. And the truth body then practices the Eightfold Path. Okay, now the kind of example I can give is lie detectors often work because it's very difficult for the body to lie. So if you get in the habit even of your thinking having a physical aspect, You don't have to now think, oh God, I'll get so stupid because my body is so slow and blah, blah, blah.

[84:44]

That's nonsense. If I push you off, you'll probably catch yourself and your body does it much quicker than your thinking can do it. So your body thinks very, very fast. And even our favorite genius, Einstein, I wish they wouldn't have that photograph of him sticking his tongue out. He said he thought with his body. He felt his ideas in his body first, and then he followed them up with his thinking. And in fact, as I pointed out recently a number of times, a neurologist named Lepid in San Francisco in the 70s... L-E-B-I-T L-E-B-I-T Lepid, yeah. ...

[85:57]

was the first, I think, to point out neurologically, that our conscious noting of our actions is about 500 milliseconds behind our body's decision to act. And in bodily time, neurological time, that's quite a long time. Okay, so it means that if you wired me up, my hand decides to move before I mentally decide I'm going to move my hand. And our consciousness is so, excuse me, gross, or coarse, we say in Buddhism coarse, that it thinks it's made a decision to move the hand, but in fact it's edited the decision.

[87:37]

It decides whether to go ahead with it or not, but the decision has been made at a physical level before the consciousness. So, from practitioners, it's best if all of your thinking, even just the most ordinary thinking, you feel your vitality, your chi, your vitality, your energy in your thinking. There's a physical muscle to your thinking. Now, so this is known, because it's a normal part of yogic culture. So this sense of a truth body which practices the eightfold path is then what again why we can say perhaps right speech, right behavior, etc.

[88:51]

And it means also eightfold path to freeing yourself from karma. Now, if you add societal karma and what you do in your job, that's a different, a misuse of the word karma, and it's a different kind of situation altogether. For instance, this woman who was the whistleblower at Enron, I mean, what she did was good. But she has the karma having been fired from her job.

[90:07]

And she also has the karma of having betrayed friends, even if the friends were wrong in what they did. But the karma she receives from her being fired is a different kind of effect of her actions than the karma of lying. No, is that, am I being fairly clear? Sense? But, you know, let me just say one thing. So, in general, you're on safer ground If you're making your basic kind of decision from a host mind and from a sense of a truth body, your body and mind joined through the breath, then you are just thinking.

[91:12]

On a safer ground, but no ground is completely safe. Yes, Melita? It just came to my mind while listening to you. No, let's not say it's silly. It came to your mind. Very often, sometimes in my life, I had a physical sudden reaction towards a person. I didn't know, I wasn't intimate with him or her. And it was a kind of, stop, don't get in touch. And when I went home and I didn't listen to my body, it was always, I mean, I had death, let's say, in the body of experience. So is this still your body truth?

[92:13]

Is it still host-like? Yes. You could say it's your host body, if you want. Deutsch Ditter. When I first heard about it, it came to my mind. I react very physically and in my life, when I have met certain people, I had a physical reaction without thinking, please no contact or this person will not do you any good. And if I am not followed, Yeah, I understand very well. Yeah, that's the case, I think. Okay. Julio, let me just answer by speaking about myself.

[93:22]

You know, I started practicing regularly in 1961 or something like that. During those years that followed, I almost always, both the accumulated problems I'd had through 24 years or so of misusing life, I'd say I resolved. Yeah, most of all of that. And the demands I had in developing the San Francisco Zen Center and in, you know, having a full-time job at the university and other things.

[94:32]

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