We've lost two people. Or three. And here's the person I've always been longing to meet. Who didn't come. It's certainly doing nothing. It's certainly doing nothing. In Ireland, if you're going to have a lecture at 8 o'clock, people arrive at 9. So, this is very good. Well, as you know, I'd love to hear some of your discussion.

[01:03]

And I'd also like to hear from anybody who hasn't spoken anything you want to say. We haven't lost so many people as I thought. Only the person I'm longing to meet isn't here. So who would like to start? Or who wouldn't like to start but will? Gerard, do I see you scratching your face? All right. One certainly vivid aspect of our discussion was the host and guest relationship. And we put out some kind of definitions we came up with so that we can only have a host and guest together, so two minds need.

[02:33]

Or the The host is the one who always stays, and so he's always at home. And the guest is the one who comes and goes. And sometimes, the other basic idea in the beginning was that the host is always Like grandmotherly, in a good mood, and always friendly. Let's hold.

[03:36]

I want to practice with you. Well, you brought up the example of Suzuki Washi's Don't Invite Your House to Tea. Yeah, I remember. What happens if those come who are not invited? They come anyway, invited or not. That's right. That's the problem. Or you've forgotten when you invited them. Okay. That's called psychology. But then without a wise host also can be quite tough, can flow like thoughts out which come over and over and over again, for example.

[04:55]

We say, here's your hat, and what's your hurry? Oh, what is it? It came up like the host is like something more like a vessel where life can happen. And the host should call to the situation, not according to ideas or definitions. And then we came to the idea that the host is something like a vessel and it is important that he acts according to the situation and that is the definition of wisdom.

[06:05]

That he acts according to the situation and not according to ideas and that is the definition of wisdom. Okay. Someone else? Yeah. In our group, we had some people with not so much Sazen experience and others with more. So one person. autogenesis training experiences. With what? Autogenesis training. Yeah. And the overall about with the two questions in the background came or we found that there was a strong connection to experiences in the nature, nature's ground.

[07:08]

So this is some kind of inspiration to have a similar feeling of meditation can release oneself. So with these two questions in the background we came to the conclusion that there is a connection to have experiences in nature that are similar to meditation experiences. And that this, we didn't call it overall Sazen Mind because some people didn't have that experience, but obviously they had some kind of relation to a similar experience. The overall feeling was that Sazen Mind or practice allows or opens up some kind of a daily change in a sense of stillness.

[08:15]

being turned towards details. And a shift or a change. Drawn toward details. Yeah. You know, it might be better to speak German or Swiss German, and then she can translate a little, or you can translate. to find a shift, a change of priorities in daily life that show up very clearly that can be so clear that you change your life and decide to follow a different direction in your life But it can also be observations that you notice that don't lead to a dramatic change in your life.

[09:58]

The spectrum widens. Yeah. Your experience of what you actually do widens. Okay. Okay, someone else. Yes. I found it very interesting with us, a notice from someone who said he went to a crepe stand at noon and when he was in there, the whole feeling of the Sausage was gone. I find it very interesting that somebody in the group noticed during lunchtime he or she went to a kebab booth and while he or she entered the whole feeling of sasen, sasen feeling from before was gone. And they felt they were in Turkey. And then they had the feeling of being in Turkey.

[11:01]

And then another person said, And then somebody else said, that is Zazen mind, that you notice that and that you can observe this. That's good. Hey, I like that. Okay, thanks. Next. I was in the same group and it was said that the atmosphere in this room is very comfortable and feels well, and I think that has to do with other mind as well.

[12:11]

You know, I like to hear from the people I know well, because I know them well. And I like to hear from those of you I don't know well, because I don't know you well. And you often have more interesting things to say than the old folks. No comment on what you just said. But less predictable. Who's next? Yes, please. Thank you. It was very impressive for me, coming back to host and guest. And I said in the group, I need both. And I noticed that with meditation, And I've experienced through meditation, in meditation, that they are in a dialogue.

[13:40]

I think it's like two levels. One is the level of from the outside, or of outside, and the other is the level of inside. and maybe with this picture that I have just received, so that I can handle it better, or maybe to see clearly what I can put in there and what I might have to distance myself from the door, or not, yes, Now I can work with this image much better and I can decide who and what do I invite and what do I have to tell at the doorstep to dismiss at the doorstep or what should I not keep too long inside.

[14:50]

Good. Thank you. Danke. When I come here, I enter a room where I can find my own pace that is suitable for me, myself. and that is also pleasant, but very soon there will also be a moment when it is not only pleasant, but there will be pain, For a while it is very comfortable, but then it can be that it changes into a more uncomfortable state and pain arises or sadness or anger. You mean just being here during the seminar or during meditation?

[16:01]

Well, I know this is inside and I fear that sometimes in everyday life I keep it low because I function on another plane. Yeah. I assume that a Zen answer would be, well, then keep sitting anyway, sort of thing. Might be. But I'm not sure I'd walk away. Yeah, and that, I guess, is the fear of facing whatever comes up. And I think that's the fear of facing whatever comes up. Yeah, I think you have to have the view that everything that... I mean, you're just sitting, it's just a posture.

[17:12]

And it brings your body and mind into a different relationship. And for some reason that can release a lot of things or open up a lot of things. But whatever it is, is you. Or let's say, also you. Sometimes it's easier to deal with if you say, this is also me, instead of saying, this is me. At least that used to help me. I'd say, oh, that's not me. Oh, no, it's also me. And I think a youth and weak The function of consciousness is to keep this stuff a little bit off-scene, obscene, off-scene.

[18:31]

And that's why, you know, we have what unconsciousness means, the unconscious. And if we spend most of our, you know, the functioning of consciousness is to keep this off-scene, when this emotional pain, physical pain and so forth, when consciousness isn't so strong and releases it in effect. What was off-scene can come on-scene a little bit rapidly. So I think that one advice is to Basic advice is to never turn away from it.

[19:51]

But also, don't turn toward it so strongly it overwhelms you. You really have to get used to it. You know, and I spoke, in a way, spoke about it last night. In the memorable phrase, you either cook your karma or get cooked by it. Yeah, so, you know, karma is going to cook you unless you find some way to cook it. And the mind of meditation is a mind at a different temperature, kind of different container. And if you can become more and more familiar with your karma, with what's been off-scene,

[20:59]

You first of all deepen your ability to face what comes up in life. And you adopt a more generous mind toward yourself and toward others. Yeah, so I think that my basic advice would be, we all have this, I'm not just speaking to you, is to sit regularly. 20, 30, 40 minutes a day or five times a week or something. Just let happen what happens. And know that you're going to stop it after Thirty minutes or forty minutes.

[22:23]

And find out that no matter what happens you can sit still for that length of time. If it gets too much for you and you get up You kind of lost the battle with your ego and with the pain. So you just have the idea, do what you want, I'm going to sit here. Or you say, with a feeling of welcome, at least for 30 minutes. And strangely, the ability to sit still and not act on what comes up. is an enormous power because you're no longer in the quality of repressing or expressing.

[23:44]

You develop an ability to allow something and not act on it. And when you really have that feeling in your sitting, Nothing can scare you anymore. So you're building a kind of psychic mind-body strength through sitting. But the first two or three years can be kind of difficult. I'm sorry, it takes a while. But you've got 20 or 30 years of life, so two or three years of zazen is not much by comparison. I'm trying to make it look good. But it's also, from my experience, true.

[24:46]

And if you do a sesshin, you find out sesshin makes this happen in space, we say here. It makes it happen a lot faster than just daily sitting. I think most people in sesshin go through periods of real dissatisfaction with themselves or emotional pain, sadness, longing. But usually, for sure, most of us get on the other side of that. And I think we're much better off than if we just kind of keep it out of sight. But it does take some courage.

[25:59]

And it does take some faith or trust in practice itself. This is what I am or also am and has to be in the end okay. Okay, sorry that was rather a long response, but this is familiar to me what you're talking about. Someone else? Yeah. I also do qigong and that is a great help for me to enforce my concentration and you said that it's not really It's not centering around concentration.

[27:17]

Enforcing or developing you mean your concentration? Strengthening, what do you mean by enforcing? Strengthening, developing? Strengthening, okay. And what I find it helps to stay more in awareness than in consciousness. Yes, I understand. The question is why do you integrate so little of these things into Zen? You mean practices like Qigong? I mean quiet, silent Qigong where you don't do anything on the outside.

[28:24]

Well, I don't know quite what you mean, but I mean, I have practiced Qigong myself for some time. And I'm not good at any of these things, but I've practiced yoga too. And it's common for practitioners to also do Tai Chi or Qigong or yoga or something. Supposedly Patanjali said, who's the founder more or less of yoga in India, he said, all the yoga postures are included in this posture. And I suppose Buddhism has some sense that all these things are included in this practice.

[29:40]

But in fact, most practitioners do do something else like qigong or yoga as well. Or many do. And the sense of finding the stillness in movement, which what, say, Tai Chi does, awakens the stillness in the mind and in the body. And we spoke about this the other day in Sushin. And the way Zen does the Oryoki practice, the eating bowl practice, is conceptually somewhat similar to Tai Chi. You find the stillness in the way you do these things with both hands and in the field of the body.

[31:01]

It's like if I look at a tree. I can see the movement of the tree. But I can also see or feel the stillness of the tree. It's almost like a field of stillness the tree has within which it moves. So the Japanese tea ceremony, for example, and very similar, the Oyoki Zen practice for eating, are meant to open up the stillness in how you relate to the physical world.

[32:02]

So I think some of that is actually included in the practices around the style of life of Zen practice. But if you practice Qigong and it works for you and it relates to your sitting, this is good. I'd definitely continue. But there is a difference. In a way you can only have one home-based practice. I had a Japanese woman teacher friend who lived with our family for about 20 years. And she practiced no chanting.

[33:11]

And she was very good at it. Sometimes she appeared on the Kyoto no stage where only has men and would sometimes do chanting in between plays. She also practiced Zen in a Rinzai monastery in Kyoto. And she did tea ceremony. But tea ceremony was her home-based practice. She brought her life to tea ceremony. But she also did these other practices. Something else? Or someone else? Hmm. Hmm. Nobody scratch.

[34:32]

Okay. So let me just come back before we end to this simple practice of Pausing for the particular within your breath. Now, I think if you just try this, as I said, for 10 or 15 minutes sometime, something like that. or even a couple of minutes, it begins to extend itself into a wider practice.

[35:47]

If you do, for instance, you'll notice if you look at a really inanimate object, a table, You can feel the table. You can feel your own perception of the table quite clearly. So, yeah, the table's there. But this practice of pausing within the breath Makes you aware of your... Quality of mind and the senses makes you aware that you're perceiving the table. And the table doesn't change much, but your perception of it changes.

[36:54]

Every few moments the table is a little different. If you look at something else, some plant that, you know, the wind moves slightly. You don't have so much experience of a beginning and end of the noticing. because the movement holds your noticing. But anyway, if you do this now and then, I think you'll find there's a subtle shift from the reality of the world to the reality of the mind that's perceiving.

[38:17]

In other words, this little practice becomes a pivot which makes you feel the mind in its activity, I'm trying to find a way to say this. Every time you, whenever you look at anything, There's the physical object and there's the mind that notices the physical object.

[39:27]

And the activity of the mind is to point at the object. In case someone throws it at you. So you want to realize it's out there. But every object also points at the mind that's perceiving it. But we don't notice this much. And I've pointed out occasionally Wittgenstein said, looking at a scene like this, there's no information in my seeing of this scene that tells me I'm seeing it. We tend to forget that we're seeing it. The reality is there. But if you do this little practice, this little pivot of noticing within the breath, it shifts you, it creates a shift

[40:38]

So that you begin to experience the mind. Because certainly there is Christian sitting there. But half of whatever this is, is my own perception of it. Or for me it's like 100% is my perception of it. Christian's doing a little bit of work to sit there still so I can look at him. But when you make this shift and this little practice again of pausing within the breath for the particular, Begins to let you feel the world at a pace which suddenly makes you feel the mind and senses that know the world. lets you feel the mind at a pace, which opens you to feeling the mind and senses which know the world.

[42:21]

feeling the mind and the senses, the meditation and the senses which know the world. So if every time I look at anything, I see my mind as well as the object. Now, that's a remarkable shift which I would like you to get to know. Much of practice is going around a corner you can't see with your thinking. Now I can suggest you do this. But what you'll find out by doing this, you can't think your way to. Whenever I say that, I think of this poem I mentioned the other day of Rumi's

[43:35]

How long I knocked on that ancient door. Knocked and knocked again. And when finally it opened I found I was already inside. So there's some quality of practice like that that you've already arrived often and you don't think you have yet. Or there's qualities of practice that you can't think to but if you do them you find yourself in some other place. So we can cover this, I can go over this territory a little once again. If you practice what we're talking about today, this pause for the particular within the breath, you'll find that it makes you more aware of the mind that's perceiving and you find yourself more located in yourself

[45:05]

Yes, the world is out there. That car just went by. But your mind doesn't go with the car. Your mind is only there while the car appears. You're not losing leaking energy into the world as much anymore. Usually the way we perceive draws our energy out of us. It's all out there, but actually it's all in here. And when you really feel that, Believe it or not, you can't be lonely anymore.

[46:28]

There's no more longing. Because you feel like you've already arrived, always you've arrived. Nothing's missing. The car drove away, but it's no longer real. What's real is while it was passing you. Of course you know the car didn't disappear into smoke or something. But Your sense of its reality is more strong, its reality is when you perceive it. That's what you hear and it feels good and you don't feel like you're missing anything.

[47:30]

I don't know if I'm making any sense. But I'm trying to make sense. Yeah. And also this little practice of, I feel like a guy selling, this oil will cure all, you just rub it on your back and you'll have no more pains, no more cancer, etc., We call it selling snake oil. Two bulbs. But it's amazing what a little practice like this will do if you bring your attention into it. Because as you repeat this, develop this habit of pausing within the breath for the particular.

[48:31]

It also begins to locate you in the immediacy of the present. And you have the experience of things being clear and precise. It clarifies the mind. Yeah, and it actually purifies the mind. Your karma has not so much place to move to get into your present. And it begins to extend your mind and sensorium into the text of the world.

[49:52]

The text of the world in which much of our actual experience is stored, is kept. Okay, that's again enough, I think. And I hope you can get the feel for how a simple practice, if it has the right form, reaches, extends, reaches deeply, extends widely into our mental and physical activity. That's why the Eightfold Path of the Buddha begins with right views. Because it's our views which are a kind of practice.

[51:21]

Shape everything we do. So now we're trying to come into views that arise from our actual experience. In this case, as you put it, the dialogue between the host mind and the guest mind. Until we come into views that reflect how we actually exist. or views that help us discover how we actually exist, views which can become practices like to pause within the breath for the particular. views which can become practices.

[52:26]

Okay, so let's sit for a few moments. Thank you.

[54:24]

Amen. Thank you. Okay.

[56:39]

Is that sound inside you or outside you? Of course you couldn't hear it if it wasn't inside you. It's reality for you is your hearing of it. Can you feel the stillness in it? Can you feel the stillness in the mind even in the hearing of it?

[58:30]

and the other sounds. In all our activity there's also a stillness of mind. Okay.

[59:59]

Thank you very much for being here. It's really wonderful for me to be here with you. And we start again tomorrow at 10. Okay. I look forward to seeing you. Thank you for translating. Good morning. Guten Morgen. So I'd like to start out this morning with hearing you rather than hearing myself. So if you have something you'd like to bring up, I'd like to hear it.

[61:43]

The success of your practice since last night. Or the effort at least. Or anything. Yes. Yes. In our group we discussed, towards the beginning, the idea of having a teacher. Is a teacher necessary? Is a teacher not necessary? And you also asked the question, what does a teacher mean in the European sense? What does a teacher mean in Zen or in the Atheistic sense? Is a teacher necessary, not necessary? What is the meaning of a teacher in the European tradition or in the Zen tradition, Asian traditions?

[63:01]

Is there a difference? Because it seems to me that European people sometimes have objections towards having a teacher, or resistance even. Yes, I know. Yes, I know. Well, it's the opposite in Asia, actually. If you don't have a teacher, there's something wrong with you. You're not complete unless you have a teacher. It also means somebody has accepted you. And it's not seen as, it's simply seen as a relationship.

[64:15]

It's not seen as you have, the relationship shows that someone else is better than you. A wonderful example of it for me was this again, this Japanese woman who lived with our family for 20 years and was also a teacher for me. The one I said that her... home-based teaching was tea ceremony. When she was about 65 her teacher of no chanting who was about 85 died. And she immediately went about deciding who would be her teacher.

[65:20]

And she chose a 45-year-old person who all in all knew less than she did. I mean, he still knew a lot, but he wasn't quite as proficient probably as she was. But the relationship was to have this relationship with another person so you can see things you don't see yourself. We should be the relationship of any friends too. They help you see yourself. That's why, I mean, I'm often surprised how few people have real friends. And it might be related to the same resistance to having a teacher.

[66:35]

So being a teacher is a role. And you, yeah, you should know something about the role. And the role of the teacher in the West is rather different than in Asia. But the role of the teacher in teaching And the teaching itself, the practice itself, should be about the same. Now, I think that one needs a sangha in the same way one needs a teacher. If someone comes to me and they say, I've been practicing

[67:36]

Yeah, by myself for 13 years, as someone said to me recently. That's admirable and not so easy to do. But I am absolutely certain, primarily because of my experience over and over again, that their practice would be far more relaxed, mature, developed in two or three years if they practiced with a sangha and a teacher. Practice is always about you. It's not about politics, the state, etc. A societal vision or something. It's always about the individual. But it's about the individual in their relationship to others and to the world.

[69:15]

And it's about then some practice you have with relationship you have with others. And the teacher is someone you you test those or explore those relationships with more freedom than you can with a friend. But particularly in Zen, the image of the teacher is as a friend, not as a guru. The teacher might be far more experienced than you are and so forth. But the conception of the relationship is not the one who's gone ahead. but the one who goes along with you.

[70:36]

So the teacher is always trying to go along with you. And the relationship becomes a practice or teaching relationship when there's this mutual understanding of going along together And a trust in that. And the disciple makes the teacher more than the teacher makes the disciple. The way the disciples treat the teacher creates a teacher. Does that mean you have to live under the watchful eye of a teacher 24 hours a day?

[71:37]

Well, that's not so bad if you have a real friendship. You know, when I was young, I... early twenties, I had good friends. I said, how can I spend my whole life with these good friends? And so this group of friends, we used to go to a house, a summer house one of them had in California. A big old funny house that was owned by several members of a family and they didn't use it, but you could go and stay there. So we used to go there and sometimes practice together and so forth.

[72:56]

And for me it was the first Crestone and first Johanneshof and so forth. And so I realized at some point I can't keep all these friends together except that all of us are still friends except some of us are dead. But I realized, what? But some of them are dead. But I realized I could create the conditions for this friendship even if who the friends were changed. So I've basically been doing that all my life. And I had to get used to, you know, the pain of my friends leaving quite often.

[74:15]

Yeah, but after a while it's okay. But still, the relationship with a sangha and a teacher, while I consider essential for maturing your practice, It doesn't have to be 24 hours. It can be a couple times a year. Just to sit with a sangha now and then or see a teacher now and then is for most of us enough. For your personal practice, it's quite a bit actually. If you really want to develop your practice so that you can practice with others fully, then maybe more contact is good.

[75:21]

Does that more or less respond to your question? Some other aspects? Something else. Yeah. Yeah. Yesterday when the window was open we heard a sound and the question was is the sound outside or is it inside of us? Of course it's inside It sounds maybe harmless, but it's that I have a misconception for 30 years because I've always thought it's outside.

[76:40]

Maybe like in the middle ages when somebody said the earth is flat and then somebody came along and said no, the earth is round. Yeah, it needs a lot of time to make this shift and realize this reality and turn, make this turn. It's wonderful that you know this. Yeah, really. I know Gregory Bateson said once, it's really difficult to teach. He said in America, he was British, but he said in America, but I think he would mean almost anywhere. And this was in the 60s, so it might have something to do with that. He said, you say something that you know people don't understand. They say in the 60s, they said, yeah, man, groovy. And they didn't understand anything.

[78:23]

They just, they didn't see that it was different than what they understood. And to see that something is different is a, yeah, there's no real practice without that. And Sukhiroshi said, if you notice a small difference in reality, if you don't abandon that insight, it will be a big change in your thinking. And that's true, and it does take time, but it is a big change. Yeah, it's not different than the way things are, but our noticing the difference makes a difference.

[79:24]

Someone else. Yes. I remembered yesterday in our small group this big difference and remembered where and how I experienced it. And it led immediately to a development of trust that I hadn't known before and that surprised me. And that surprised me. That the trust is to go where there is no fear anymore or anxiety anymore.

[80:27]

But that is the path. And that was something that did change my life. This thought to be free of fear, of anxiety, that would be nice. And it's possible. It is possible. And if you know it's possible... It's more likely to become possible, real. That's one role of the teacher is to help convince you it's possible. Someone else. Oh, all right.

[81:30]

Maybe we need a break soon. Lunch break. I understand. Yes. Yes. I hear that here that in Buddhism there is being talked about different souls one that while dying goes into earth and one is being reincarnated Now I'd like to have an answer from you about the difference between soul and mind. You are talking about mind here? Is that the reincarnated soul?

[82:40]

Any idea of soul or two souls, etc. ? is not central to Buddhism as I know it and definitely not part of Zen practice. So I can't speak to that. You know, I... Some of you know this, I meet with a group of people... who do research on any indication for survival after bodily death.

[83:40]

Yeah. And there's lots of very convincing data about out-of-body experiences and near-death experiences. that I don't think you can argue with. When a person is completely, the blood's been pumped out of their body and they're at a very low temperature and their brain is stopped, they report everything that's in the room. If that's possible, I mean, what isn't? That's a lot. Almost anything's possible if that's possible. So this is something I'm interested in.

[84:53]

But I don't think the teaching of Buddhism in any way depends on theories about it. When I was in China, for instance, I found that the Chinese have a whole ancestral tradition idea which doesn't conceptually overlap with Tibetan ideas of reincarnation, say? And then there's all kinds of theories to try to make everything fit, lots of ideas, but I don't think that has much to do with Buddhism. So mind by mind I mean, we mean awareness, consciousness, the experience of presence.

[85:56]

But we don't mean in a Western sense that somehow there's some essence of that which continues. I'm not saying it's not the case. It's just not my experience. And I only teach what I experience. And in general, the attitude of Buddhism is there's quite a mystery in this existence, why anything exists at all. But unless it's your experience, don't make theories about it.

[86:56]

So Buddhism, the teaching related to our immediate experience, not theories about the cosmos and things like that. But, you know, I grew up in a very scientific family. My father was an engineer and a scientist. And what I imagined possible and so forth is far different now since I practiced than when I started. But still in Buddhism there's no idea or emphasis as there is in Western teachings on the soul. But of course there are some things we experience as soul, and we wouldn't say it's spirit, and we wouldn't say it's self.

[88:19]

Self. But we wouldn't think of those things as entities, just as ways of experiencing something. I don't think that's a very satisfactory answer to your question, but that's the best I can do. Yes. On Friday night you said we should try to be very precise. And it's very simple to lose the goal or the aim of Zen practice.

[89:31]

The precise goal. To lose the preciseness or to lose the precise goal? The precise goal. You know, there's this fuzzy target you picture. Yeah. We'd like to see you walk by. Yes. What is this precise target? How do you practice to have that precise target? Okay, I hear you. Maybe I will come back to that after the break. Did you want to say something? I can't formulate the question precisely.

[90:51]

But I'm being occupied for some time now with the relationship between energy, form and structure. When I'm here for a day and sit, And I feel how my body develops more and more into an upright posture. And I listen with the whole of my body. I am more present. Then the reason is from the form. then the foundation is form. And energy helps me to let it happen.

[91:59]

Form helps me to let the energy. Two weeks ago I went dancing for a week. For a week? That's my kind of guy. So einen mag ich. I've heard of all night, but for a week. I've never managed more than all night. Also ich hatte nicht mehr als eine Nacht durch. Yeah, go ahead. Ich mache für mich die sehr ungewöhnliche Erfahrung, I had this unusual experience that I had a lot of energy and an unclear form. And then the form developed into more preciseness of clarity. And it was so much pleasure to come from energy to form.

[93:19]

And there was a lot of pleasure to come from energy to form. And now I ask myself, I sometimes experience from form to energy that it is a bit exhausting or a bit deadly, too much form for me and too little energy. And sometimes I experience to come from form to energy, it's more exhausting, it's more effort, it takes more effort, and sometimes it's deadly for me to have too much form. I wonder about how to come from energy to form and what you say to that. How can I, yeah, what is that? The question is not quite precise yet.

[94:21]

The direction is clear, no? Well, I'll do my best. After the break. Okay. So, let's have a half hour break and I'll see you soon.

[94:38]

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