You're ready to accept. You're accepting you're sitting in a chair. And then maybe when anything comes to you, the first thing you say is yes. And then, but no. I mean, or you say welcome. And it's actually useful, again, the way we practice with phrases. To use yes or welcome or arriving. as the attitudinal content of each moment.

[01:04]

Does that make sense? So maybe, you know, one thing I'd emphasize is in practice a pause So say someone says something to you. It may come naturally. It doesn't have to be pointed out. But you pause. There's a little stop. Where there's an accepting it before you say this is good to accept or bad to accept. And then you look at accepting it. But you weave pauses into your activity. And I can maybe speak more about it. Because recently I've concluded that a sense of knowing how to pause sometimes of an unnoticeable length of time is actually

[02:29]

necessary or certainly useful way to practice for laypersons. Something else? A small point to that. There are people to think about. They sit in front of you and they notice that they actually turn away from you and they are actually not there. Say that again. There are people, or you notice when they're in front of you, they actually almost turn away and don't want to be in contact with you. They are so almost jumping away that they're basically not there. And that cannot happen for them, this acceptance.

[03:48]

But you can keep producing it in yourself. And if their eyes dart away, you can wait till their eyes come back for a moment. And you start speaking when their eyes come back. And as soon as their eyes dart away, you pause again. There's something, you know. Buddhist monasteries were in the early days were places of education and medicine and so forth medical knowledge. But they were also examples of how people should live. I mentioned that in the context of my emphasis earlier on, perhaps too strong an emphasis on, maybe not, on bringing your attention to your breath.

[05:14]

You know, our colleges and our society certainly teaches us how to behave a certain way. cut our fingernails, don't smell too badly, look reasonably good, but we don't teach people to bring their attention to their breath. And it would be considered in such monasteries that they weren't making a good example for others unless their attention was in their breath.

[06:21]

And they couldn't really understand things with an embodied thinking unless their attention was in their breath. I just think it's interesting to imagine if you went to university, one of the first courses would be bringing your attention to your breath. Somehow you can do that in a monastery, but if you did it in a university, you'd be thought to be a little bit kooky. When I went to college, one of the first things they did is give me a speed reading course. I prefer to read slowly.

[07:25]

I'd rather spend, you know, 20 minutes on the first sentence and really see what's going on there than catch a lot of information. They really taught you... I suppose if they can teach speed reading, they could teach slow breathing, too. But again, I always feel you therapists have a chance to bring things into the education or the interaction with people that much of our society overlooks.

[08:30]

Okay. Something else? No, at last. You don't want to bring up what you brought up at lunch? My question was? I started Qigong in the spring and there it's customary that during Everything you visualize and you bring, you breathe up, and there are different images of how you can work with it.

[09:42]

And my question is if the Zazen, the Zen Buddha, if you work with visualization or with energy ideas like meridians and stuff like that. Yeah, I asked you to repeat the question, but it's actually a rather hard question to answer. Because the answer is yes, but no. Well, rather... There's lots of, there's sort of like what you teach in general.

[10:47]

And there's what you teach, you don't teach, you try to let people understand by their own intuition. Yeah, so that is so strong that when Dungsan was asked why does he honor his teacher, He says, I honor him because he refused to reveal the teaching to me. And then there's a lot of teachings that come out under certain circumstances. They're not for the general air. They're for a special air. Air as a person or an air? Air. What do I mean? Maybe you understand what I mean by that?

[11:49]

The general air... The special air is that sometimes there's a certain feeling that allows you to say certain things. So as a result, Zen is very apprentice, dependent on the apprentice relationship of the mentorship relationship. But I think that's more or less true of any of these similar teachings. So I'm sure that Qigong has a... I've studied Qigong some myself.

[13:10]

That Qigong has a... They have a public teaching and they have a non-public teaching. And Zen has a public teaching and a non-public teaching. And a lot of these public teachings are rather different. And the non-public teachings overlap a lot. And then to explain that, I'd have to explain why Zen, for instance, decides to have a certain kind of public teaching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But meridians and all that stuff are left to practice, are left to what happens in practice.

[14:36]

But when I speak about a verticality, I'm really speaking about something that leads into opening your meridians. And if you were practicing Zen in Asia, it would be very common for, maybe Siegfried would study yoga. In addition, you might study Qigong and you might study Aikido. It's very common to take one of these other arts and bring it into your practice. Which are usually very specific. They're much more specific than Zen is, than Buddhism is.

[15:38]

So I know that partly answers it. I had difficulties with my spine and I couldn't sit for some months. And then I started Qigong and that was very good for me. Somehow my feeling was that this helps me a lot, but that it's a similar goal that satsang has, that I get into a similar state like with practice satsang. Yeah, probably so. That's why I ask this question. Yeah, no, I understand, sure. But, and if you came to, you're not practicing Zen with me.

[16:43]

We're just, this is a chat room. If you practice Zen with me, I would work on your posture. If you came to Creston for three months, then, you know. And did a sesshi. And did a sesshi. Yeah. Anyway. And the question about visualization. Zen uses visualization. Zen uses, particularly for some people, visualization as a practice. But the general place visualization has, say in Tibetan Buddhism, is replaced by using phrases.

[17:49]

And it's a conscious decision not to use visualizations as a kind of program because it's thought to shape the mind too much. It lays down maps on the mind. Very sophisticated maps, good maps. But often the maps don't assume the evolution of consciousness. Because Zen assumes we don't know where we're going. So it doesn't want to give the mind maps. So that's one of the main reasons there's so much emphasis on the posture. You bring very precise attention to the posture and leave the mind alone.

[19:11]

But you still have to work with certain things and you work with them through these phrases. Yeah. Anyway, this was the kind of decision that Chinese Zen made. Somehow it corresponds a lot to the Mahamudra and Dzogchen practices in Tibetan Buddhism. When in fact maybe very similar schools. But I don't know. I don't practice Tibetan Buddhism so I can't make a comparison really. But I do know that Zen consciously decided not to use prescribed visualizations. But to work with them spontaneously when they come up. Okay. And you had a question related maybe?

[20:12]

About acupuncture points? It's the same? Oh. Yeah, no, it's the same. I said earlier our body is a mass of acupuncture points. I don't know why I said it that way. But I just meant that the more your mind and body are woven together, the more your body starts teaching you. And slight differences in posture, how you stand, everything becomes a mudra. And that all suddenly becomes mudras. Okay, yeah, that's enough.

[21:34]

Anyone else had something? Someone who hasn't said anything so far? I've got another question. And it's connected to what Siegfried said in the beginning? about this astrophic breathing from Stencroft. If you agree with that, for me it's like that both are paths, sin is a path, and this breathing work is also a path to the same, let's say, goal. Do you see that the same way? I mean, I don't know. How do I know?

[22:41]

First of all, I'm not interested in a goal. I'm not trying to go anywhere. I'm always trying to arrive. This is good enough for me. Yeah. There's a real problem with any idea of goal because it takes you out of fundamental time. Now... Can I turn that off a minute? Something else? Yes, okay.

[24:01]

So about this suffering thing from before, freedom from suffering is when you recognize that everything changes is that like to be understood like you go through this process like twice like once you realize everything is changing and that gives you the drive to find something where you can reside in a better place and then in the second time when you come across it that you feel comfortable in the idea that everything is changing My question was about this freedom from suffering, seeing that everything is changing. Is it possible to understand that if you have to practice it twice, once to see that everything is changing and that gives you the sufficient impulse to want to go out to find a better place?

[25:03]

This is related also to Christina's question this morning? So let me try to paraphrase it. You're asking to recognize everything is changing, is that right? Opens you to more suffering. But in some way also frees you from suffering or starts the path toward freeing you to suffering. And then when you start your path in things, then you come back to the idea that everything changes, frees you from suffering, because then you have a different attitude towards this change, that you kind of maybe see yourself as a whole, and then changing is just like a chameleon.

[26:21]

It changes colors, but the thing doesn't lose anything. Okay. Don't people, when they're in psychotherapy, often start suffering more in the early stages of psychotherapy? Because you kind of open yourself to, you're more open to what's really going on. But it's a necessary step toward understanding and getting more free of your suffering.

[27:26]

I would think that would be similar in a way. But the suffering in general in Buddhism is first of all thought to be when you don't know how things exist. So... So if you're deluding yourself or in denial, you might feel better, I suppose. But you're heading for more trouble. And I think the point is that when you do come into a mind that both recognizes change and accepts change, it recognizes change and accepts it.

[28:41]

This is again a different kind of mind. So you're more open to suffering. But simultaneously you have a more integrated mind. And so you feel better and worse at the same time, maybe. You feel worse when you go back to your old mind and better when you come back in this more integrating mind. I don't know. I mean, something like that is what I think. Okay, shall I go back to our list here? What time are we supposed to stop for? Six. Six? Okay.

[29:55]

I don't... So this would be the replacement of causes. Now, I... This is important to me, but I don't know if I can make it understandable or important to you. Here we're dealing with higher causes. When you're recapitulating your personal story, you're making the story your own possession.

[31:25]

You're reparenting yourself, we can say. Re-eltert sich. Wieder beeltert man sich. Is there such a word in your head? Yeah, yeah. It doesn't exist in English. I just make it up. Maybe it's in West Virginia. It's used in psychology now. Oh, it is. It's a transactional answer. It's not a dictionary. No. Okay, so here you're dealing with prior causes. I don't know if this makes much sense. And here you're dealing, in your views, you're dealing with a prior cause. So if you're in the midst of a... What's the idea here?

[32:26]

The basic idea here is Karma comes in two forms. One is prior causes and one is immediate causes. It appears in the immediate situation where you can do something about it at this moment. Wo man auch in diesem Moment etwas damit anstellen kann. Okay. So... So that's especially the case here. Das ist vor allen Dingen hier der Fall. So what do I mean here is that, for example... Also was ich damit meine ist zum Beispiel... Say that I notice that...

[33:28]

In my relationship with somebody. Or in situations I have a feeling of insecurity. Okay. So I can just notice that this insecurity arises. Okay. So the first is noticing that. Now, if you're practicing mindfulness, you would then try to notice when you feel insecure. It does? So you're actually looking at a kind of typology of insecurity. So you might look back and say, well, I'm insecure because my parents told me I was a dummy and things like that.

[34:38]

As parents sometimes do. But In practice we just more look at when it occurs and etc. Okay, so you might try to then replace that with a feeling of security. Or try to replace it with no attitude. So if talking with you I feel insecure, I try to take the insecurity away. And maybe leave nothing there. And just see what happens.

[35:45]

And that's a very basic practice to try to take distinctions out of a situation. You let the situation occur, but your attitudes within the situation you try to take out. Or let's say that you felt superior. I think that's pretty common. We either feel or need to feel superior or we feel inferior or insecure. Okay. So we notice that we, in most situations, need to establish superiority in situations. Now, you can adapt Zen practice to look for the psychological reasons for that.

[36:51]

But you can also just look at the fact that that occurs. And you might find it's rooted in insecurity. You might also find it's rooted in, say, not being able to give attention. That you only somehow you form your personality so that you need to receive attention. And as I pointed out recently, the job of a baby is to get attention. They're very good at it. I think the three younger members of our group get more attention at lunch than anyone else.

[37:52]

We've all noticed those three, but we haven't all noticed each other. But we willingly give it to them because they're so cute. But some of us continue our whole life needing the same kind of attention. And we think we get it if we're superior or something like that. And I would say adulthood, one sign of adulthood is when you shift to giving attention and don't need attention. So, like, say you notice that you need attention. Then, in Zen practice, you'd try to find a phrase An antidote.

[39:35]

And you just try to say, in each moment you program into yourself, give attention. You wouldn't worry so much about where it came from or what the causes were. You'd try to deal with it in an immediate way. And so when you do that, you bring yourself very quickly back into fundamental views. Does that make sense? So one way to relieve suffering is to notice what triggers something in the immediate situation. And simply change those triggers.

[40:38]

I remember a while ago, I was in a situation where I wanted to, I would have liked to have accepted the situation better and forgiven better. I wanted to accept the situation more and feel more forgiving of a number of people. And I found that even after some years I really couldn't get access to forgiving them.

[41:43]

So I kept trying to notice what came up in the immediate situation where there was an opportunity to forgive. I was able to like them I was able to interact with them, but there were some where I couldn't really accept them or forgive them. Okay, but at some point I suddenly could see that in my hierarchy of views, justice was underneath compassion.

[42:44]

And that goes way back to childhood where I was brought up with a world that justice was important. And as soon as I saw that, And I could kind of nudge justice out from its position and put it above compassion. And I could actually not care about whether the world was right or wrong. Yeah. It's just... but to rather live in a world where there was compassion instead of justice I was immediately able to start forgiving so that's a way of replacement of causes or replacement of views so that's a way of replacing causes or replacement of views

[43:56]

Something anyone wants to bring up? In the spirit of summer. That's something we do a lot in therapy, especially all these points, but especially this fifth one is something what we do a lot if we look for it in a solution-finding way. Can you give me an example? One more example, somebody's arriving, coming. Somebody is? Arriving to practice, to therapy. And he has the opinion that he suffers from the acting from the other people, so the environment is cause of his suffering.

[45:17]

and that you then induce the idea that the person himself might have a problem, which he can solve himself, for instance, or... Somebody has a violent father and he's been hit. And then you introduce this way of looking at it. He didn't actually mean the child, but he meant somebody from his past here. And this kind of makes easier to look at what happened to yourself.

[46:20]

She says, that's not what I mean. It's very good. But the example has something to do that you replace justice so that you don't blame people. That blaming is something to be in this kind of idea of justice. So in that sense, I think, So those are both examples though, but also what was your example then? What you also described, you always study what kind of view and what kind of habits you have and thought habits that they always recreate their problem. That you induce the idea that somebody else has a entirely different story.

[47:32]

He would have completely different ideas in this first person's situation. And then you introduce ideas what this person views the client can figure out themselves or make themselves for instance that he imagines how he would do it in 10 years for instance that ideas that you have as a psychotherapist that you just tell a story like how other people would do it but it's actually your idea So you're trying to substitute a different kind of behavior or attitude in the midst of a situation.

[48:36]

How do you get the client to remember to do it? If he likes one of these new ideas. He could, for instance, search for a symbol for his usual behavior and another symbol for an alternative. So he could go for a walk with both symbols now. And in a similar situation. And then he kind of checks in a similar situation which symbol would I take. And then he can observe himself what's happening if he chooses one or the other.

[49:39]

And that he observes himself while he does that. Or, I don't know. Yeah, no, I understand, yeah. It's very similar. If you notice, for instance, you always put yourself above other people, I would suggest someone try to always feel themselves slightly below the other people. But another way to look at it is to simply try to dissolve the subject-object distinction in whatever it is. In other words, Siegfried is sitting here in front of me. And I have a feeling this is Siegfried. And he's got a much more colorful shirt than I have.

[50:54]

And he's sitting in the posture of the future Buddha. And I'm sitting in the posture of a Japanese gentleman. Oh. Now the present Buddha. Noticing I have such ideas. And that he's your husband or whatever. As soon as I notice any idea appearing, I try to dissolve it. And that's the practice of dissolving the subject-object distinction in each situation. But the important thing is here, you need the distinction to dissolve it. As Nagarjuna says, you cannot establish absolute reality without first establishing conventional reality.

[52:07]

So in this sense it's dialectical. Form is exactly emptiness. It's not form and emptiness. Form is emptiness. Emptiness. And emptiness is form. So it's not, what's the, it is and it is not, and neither is nor, neither is not. We're not concerned in Buddhism with is and is not. We're only concerned with it, it, it, isn't is and it isn't not is.

[53:21]

So we don't say one or two, we say not one and not two. So there's always this dialectic. So no, we're not walking around in a non-dual state. Non-duality is an activity related to duality. So, very naturally, in every circumstance, you have subject-object distinction appears. Which gives you an opportunity to dissolve it. Okay. Yeah. Go a little slower so she can translate for me.

[54:30]

So this replacing justice and compassion. What do you think about patients who have fear? Here I understand that you substitute compassion and justice, yes? I can understand it here. What would you suggest in Buddhism for fear? What would you replace fear with? Well, all of these things, insecurity, superiority, etc., are all rooted in fear.

[55:50]

I don't know how to speak about it right now in general. But I know that one thing to do is whenever you feel fear, turn toward the fear. Never turn away from fear. Maybe not turn so much toward it that you're overwhelmed, but turn toward it. And sometimes we practice with trying to increase, put ourselves in situations of extreme fear. And just immerse yourself in it and accept fear without trying to get out of it. But I don't think that's a sufficient response to your question.

[57:23]

You do? Okay. I'm not satisfied. Okay, so then I can finish the list. Six is an absorbent mind And seven is to break karmic limits. Now, I'll speak about this one first, though we just started talking about that one.

[59:00]

All of the things I've said so far relate to this absorbent mind. And the word zazen means absorbent sitting. The word zen means meditation, but really means something like absorbent sitting. An absorbent concentration, we could say. And a mind that feels continuous underneath the distinctions of mind, of consciousness, It feels continuous underneath the... the distinctions of consciousness.

[60:41]

So in a way it establishes in the midst of change a continuity. In the midst of change... So like I said with bringing your attention to your breathing, that it becomes quite continuous, having your awareness and breathing one continuity. And that's related to developing this absorbent mind.

[61:52]

And it's deeply stabilizing. And the more you have this experience simultaneously with your activity, it reduces, changes, ends in many ways suffering. It's usually your changeable mind that suffers. This is a more unchangeable mind. It's almost like the seeking for permanence and the safety of permanence. A good situation we create. a good situation that we create, that where we would feel safe, all those needs become satisfied by this absorbent mind.

[63:20]

And this is sometimes called sameness. Or thusness. On each situation, each situation is particular, but somehow there's a feeling of sameness underneath it. And the development of that kind of mind It's one of the main ways you free yourself from suffering in practice. And the last one of the list I came up with today is breaking the link of karma.

[64:28]

Okay. Now, we don't have much time. So I'll just, if we're ending at six, right? And what time do we start this evening? Okay. 7.30? 7.30, sure. And probably I should go through a little bit of this understanding of karma. And even though this is something we went into in some depth in the Creston practice period, So it'd be a review for Gunda and Marie-Louise. But this is related to the moment of death. The understanding in Buddhism, and I'll try to go into it a little more, and why death is called nirvana, because it's an involuntary enlightenment, because your constituents are dissolved.

[66:00]

And the dissolving of the constituents is one definition of enlightenment in nirvana. So how we understand the moment of death if we understand the moment of death as something that can allow us to realize nirvana even after a lifetime of conditioning and karma how can one moment be so important And if one moment can be so important, that one moment can be now. So this also is the moment of death. Because this moment you can also dissolve your constituents.

[67:22]

And so this is this latter one, to break the karmic links. And it's essentially a very simple idea So let's leave it at that And let's sit for a little bit Thank you for trying. That's the pause, I believe. I don't really know. Is there anything anyone would like to bring up?

[68:27]

I guess not. Yes, Peter? On the first step, the first category, the fundamental of emptiness, and in the fifth category, in the sixth step, we speak of the fastness which is below of understanding. Are these two different levels? Oh, yeah. You mean number six and number one? Yeah, yeah. In number six you spoke about fastness, which is below everything. Mm-hmm. I understood like that. Very good. And... Simultaneously ready. Also gleichzeitig in allem. Deutsch, bitte. Okay. That sounds like English.

[69:48]

With a German accent. Yeah, you know, I didn't try to make a systematic kind of list. I just thought of the ways in which I notice my own relationship through practice to suffering. And as I said, the first one really covers all of them.

[70:51]

But taking it away from some kind of theoretical basis, In practice, and in life in general, somehow practice makes us able to notice moments of relief or happiness or ease. And somehow when we notice such moments, if we practice, they begin to happen more often. At least that's certainly true for me. And as far as I can tell, it's true for a lot of people.

[72:23]

The moments of happiness or ease get deeper and more frequent. It's not that they're entirely new, but they seem to be in a frame of being that supports them. And I think that my own experience is that the episodic or haphazard, or now and then, the happenstance of such moments, is independent from establishing this, related to, but independent from establishing this absorbent mind.

[73:24]

And I wanted to emphasize that we're not just getting rid of suffering, we're replacing it with bliss or joy or happiness. And the activity is a choice to replace it. Now, I could talk more about the Laya Jnana, Tathagatagarbha, and so forth, but practically speaking, it seems to work this way for me. And I think that practice is a... Most of practice isn't arising from theories.

[74:32]

If you have to teach it, you have to look at the theories behind it and see if... And so you can develop some kind of consistent pedagogy But it's a mistake in practice in general to try to map these various teachings onto each other. It's much better to leave them all independent. I do this, I do this, and it works. I do this, and it doesn't work as well. I do this, and this happens. It's like you're harvesting different fields, but you don't know who planted them. So noticing that happiness arises and acknowledging that

[75:46]

That in itself changes one's vision. And that's different than developing this mind of continuity. It's different than developing the mind of continuity. Yeah. Okay, so, I'm constantly worried that I'm talking too much about Buddhism, not about stuff that's useful to you, but I don't know why I'm so worried today. Oh dear. I need therapy. As Marie-Louise has pointed out. Okay. But one thing I just happened to think of today, Sukershi mentioned once, That mind has three aspects to mind.

[77:29]

One is potentiality. And another is interactivity. Interrelationship. And the third is appropriateness. Does the appropriateness that's often expressed, does the lid fit the pot? If you're cooking, you've got a pot and a bunch of lids, which one lid fits? And it struck me that that's surprisingly parallel to watching these films of a constellation being created. Because you can feel there's a potentiality of mind

[78:34]

There's a potentiality in this person to resolve whatever his conflicts are, whatever is bothering him. And the potentiality is going to be manifested in interactivity or interrelationship. So then you take several people, get them to take these positions. I thought it was very funny when Matthias, what is his last name? He said, when you're in the mind of a constellation, And you step forward half a step, suddenly you have a headache.

[79:54]

And you step back and you're feeling something else completely different. He says, luckily this doesn't happen while you're waiting for a bus. You move forward two inches and you... They might have a different kind of vehicle than a bus come to get you. Ha, ha, ha. But we can be in the constellation and it seems normal or kind of normal. So somehow we are able to bring the potentiality of mind manifested in several people, even strangers. But then there's a certain appropriateness that is needed. So Hellinger gets up and moves somebody a little bit to ask the question or something like that.

[80:58]

But that still has to be a process of appropriateness in the manifestation. Yeah, okay. Some other... something. Thank you. Shucks. You're always useful for me when I need a question. Feeling the spirits of somebody. So you were going to say something? Yeah, when we talk about suffering, I mean, one thing is suffering which I'm experiencing myself, and of course that's the only suffering I can do anything about it, besides, I mean, helping other people.

[82:24]

But there's also something like the suffering of the world, or... I mean, there's a lot of suffering going on. I'll say. And we don't, I mean, we are not able to do anything about it. Yeah, what does Buddhism, how do you deal with that? Because, I mean, that's not suffering you can be free of. It's always there. Yes, when we talk about suffering, yes, of course there is the own suffering. Buddhism gives the way to free oneself from that. But then there is also suffering in the world that you are somehow opposed to and where you can actually do nothing.

[83:31]

Or you can do something, but it is limited. The suffering will always be there somewhere. Yeah, maybe we should have Marie-Louise sit there, and then she can translate for you, and then somebody else can sit. Eric can sit on the other side of Marie-Louise, and we could pass the question. I think in some ways it's a false problem. I remember Ivan Illich once said, I have this little thing on my desk. I don't remember what it was. Some object someone's given him. It wasn't worth much money, but it's valuable to him because someone gave it to him. And he said, if someone tells me about suffering in Serbia or someplace, I'm simply not going to sell this object on my desk. And if I'm not going to sell this object on my desk,

[84:33]

to help to send the money to Serbia, is it a real question? Is it a real question? What should I do? There's nothing I can do. It's an imagination of some powers we don't have. We can help in ways you can imagine helping or through institutions. Or you can go there if you're a doctor, say, and be a volunteer. But then you're not somewhere else. So one always has this problem. And I think really it's a false problem. we have to, I think, for the most part, have to stay in, to use your language, the constellation we're in.

[85:58]

And something, I think there's a kind of, here we have an overlap of sort of the idea of fate and path. Yeah, I mean, I'm not much interested in the idea of fate. But it does in some way, in Buddhism, correspond to the idea of path, as I said recently. Is there some reason we're here? Is there some fate that we're here or some path brought us here? And this situation that we're in is our responsibility. Not something over there that we can think about. If I can do something, I will, but at least I have to have this responsibility.

[86:59]

Okay, so karma. Yeah, trying to find a way to speak about it, that there's an entry to it or that will be useful. First of all, it's an idea. And it's an idea that didn't exist in Vedic times. Or very late Vedic times it came in. And the first you can see it in Indian history is mostly in the Upanishads. Okay. Yeah. Have you any date for that? Any numbers for Veda time? I'd have to look it up to be exact, but we're talking about some hundreds of years before Buddha's time.

[88:26]

So it was an idea present in India at the time of the Buddha. And it's an idea that the Buddha adopted. Now, we all know that our actions affect us. So what's so important about an idea of karma? But it's interesting what ideas do. There was a psychology before Freud. And Freud introduced, I think, primarily to us the idea of the unconscious. And by introducing the idea of the unconscious into psychology, he changed the domain of psychology, I would say.

[89:35]

It suddenly became not just a study of our consciousness, but it put us right at the edge of society. The edge of what's known. And it's almost around the same time anthropology became important. Studying cultures other than our own. It's almost like psychology started studying our culture as if it weren't our own. Saying we're in the midst of our culture, but we don't fully understand it. We don't fully understand ourselves. So the domain of psychology suddenly expanded to include almost everything.

[90:37]

You couldn't write history today without having a sense of psychology of the people you were writing about. You can't do philosophy or sociology without an idea of psychology. And how does psychology exist? It's a dialogical process and it's a way of understanding things. And it has this, you know, it's rooted in certain practices that you folks are doing in various ways. And yet what arises from those practices and the understanding affects everything.

[91:47]

So now what we're doing is bringing this Buddhism, which happens to be a wisdom teaching with a lot of similarities to psychology, into some kind of relationship. So when you take an idea, And you add some practices to it, something happens in the way it affects society. Okay, so karma was, I mean, everyone knows our actions affect us. That's not a big deal. Yeah. And if we want to ask what is our life, we have to also ask what are our actions.

[92:55]

And how do our actions affect us? So into these questions came the idea of karma. That our actions affect us and the effects accumulate. that how do they accumulate? How are they held? And okay, one of the main points in Buddhist understanding of karma is that it's conditional. Now, karma has a lot of strange forms. You get this idea, and everyone has to deal with the idea of karma. And then it's stretched to cover all kinds of things.

[93:59]

And sometimes these things fall outside the word karma. And sometimes they contaminate the idea of karma. But a powerful idea like this accumulates meaning. I guess I'm saying this because I'm saying don't believe everything you hear about karma. In Zen practice, it's something you have to decide for yourself. It's not a belief like in something or other. Okay. I mean, one of the strange ways of looking at karma is that Chinese have ancestor worship They don't want to be reborn as anybody else, but their children, their grandchildren.

[95:18]

So they try to fix the karma system into the ancestor worship system. And they have the feeling that once you die, Part of you somehow hangs around the grave. And part of you is up in the sky somewhere, someplace. And the part in the sky can do you a lot of damage unless you pay attention to the part in front of the gravestone. It's no stranger.

[96:00]

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