Good morning bodhisattvas. Actually, that is a greeting that was the greeting that one of the early Zen teachers in in the United States, Nyogen Senzaki, how he regularly greeted his sangha. His sangha is mostly around Los Angeles and San Francisco in the in the late 40s and 50s. And he greeted them that way because his understanding is that everyone who comes to practice is on the bodhisattva path, comes to Zen practice. And I want to follow up a little. I'm going to start by singing you the whole song that that Judy Fleischman

[01:09]

offered a fragment of last last week. And I think it sets the tone for the subject that I want to address, which is a line taken from Dogen. And I'll explain the context. After I sing the song, the line is, the mind of a sentient being is difficult to change. To which you could say, you could say that's pretty obvious. But the way that we the way that we hold our bodhisattva vows is how we change our own minds and how we also can help others work with theirs. So let me sing you this song, which I have sung before. This is taken from chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra.

[02:22]

And that chapter, and it was the song itself was written about, I don't know, more than 20 years ago by Greg Fein and Ben Gustin at Tassajara. So many of you know this, and you can sing the chorus along with me. And you'll pick it up, you have four opportunities to sing the chorus. So this tells the story, the Buddha is recounting the story of a past age when there was the bodhisattva saddha paribhuta, which means the bodhisattva never disparaging, the bodhisattva that is never insulted. And he lived at a time when was kind of a retrograde age, when monks and nuns and even

[03:28]

the bodhisattvas were somewhat arrogant. There's a book called the Lotus Sutra that you really ought to know about. A holy book that has the power to remove all fear and doubt. And this book tells the story of a man who means the world to me. He could just as well have been a woman, except for male hegemony. So they call him the bodhisattva never disparage, the bodhisattva never despise. And I'm making it my life's ambition to see the world through his pure eyes. Because he says,

[04:31]

here's the chorus, I will never disparage you or keep you at arm's length. Where you only see your weaknesses, I only see your strength. I would never despise you or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I can plainly see, you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. Now the bodhisattva never disparaging, lived countless kalpas in the past. In the time of the counterfeit dharma, he was something of an outcast. Because the monks and nuns of his time, they were noted for their arrogance and vanity. These were the folks who exercised great power and authority. But my boy, he never concerned himself if they treated him like a freak. He just bowed to everybody

[05:41]

equally. And these are the words he'd speak. I would never disparage you or keep you at arm's length. Where you only see your weaknesses, I only see your strength. I would never despise you or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I can plainly see, you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. He never read or recited the scriptures much. He only liked to practice respect. But the monks and nuns of his time, they didn't treat him like you might expect. Instead they cursed him, and they reviled him, and they wished that he would go. Because they all had self-esteem issues, like everybody else I know. So they beat him and pelted him with clubs and stones, and tried to

[06:48]

drive him away. But he just run off to a safe distance. And then he turned around and said, I would never disparage you or keep you at arm's length. Where you only see your weaknesses, I only see your strength. I would never despise you or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I can plainly see, you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. And so it went on for years and years. He was the target of scorn and abuse. Still our hero, he shed no tears. Nor did he ever wonder, what's the use? Till he came to the end to his natural lifespan, he lay down fixing to die. And

[07:49]

he heard the holy Lotus Sutra being preached up in the sky. And his life was extended for millions of years. He's living to this day. And in the pages of the Lotus Sutra, you still can hear him say, I would never disparage you or keep you at arm's length. Where you only see your weaknesses, I only see your strength. I would never despise you or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I can plainly see, you'll be a Buddha someday. Yes, it's clear to me, I can plainly see, you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. I love you. So let me take a moment and switch my chair.

[09:07]

So thank you for listening. And I think there's two core principles there that we'll come back to as we address this question about how we work with our minds and how we work with the minds of those we engage with. Those principles are, first of all, not turning away. Not turning away from those who insult us, those with whom we are in conflict. And we can talk some about how to do that. And as the ground, the fundamental ground for that activity is respect. He treated everybody

[10:32]

equally. And he offered them to respect. And the respect, as we see in, in all of the Mahayana Sutras, the respect is based on the recognition of our mutual Buddha nature. That everyone is an expression of Buddha nature. So to read you this passage from one of my, my favorite Dogen fascicles, which I've spoken about often and written about, called the Bodhisattva for Embracing Dharmas. In Kastan Hashi's translation, it's the Bodhisattva's four methods of guidance. In

[11:33]

Japanese Bodhisattva Shishobo. And it's a teaching that appears in quite a few of the Mahayana Sutras and also appears originally in the Pali Sutras. And that's translated as the four foundations of social harmony. And let me just say those foundations are giving, kind speech, beneficial action. And what Dogen translates as identity action, meaning action in identity with another you could talk, you could also call it together action, or simply cooperation, cooperation, operating together. So in the section, in this fascicle on giving towards the end,

[12:44]

it says, the mind of the sentient being is hard to change. We begin to transform the ground mind ground of sentient beings by offering material things. And so we resolve to continue to transform them until they all attain the way until they all become the Buddhas that they are, they realize the Buddha nature that they actually are. From the beginning, we should always practice giving. That is why the first of the six paramitas is dana paramita, the perfection of giving. A wide or narrow mind cannot be measured. The greatness or smallness of material things cannot be weighed. But there are times when our mind turns things.

[13:48]

And then there is giving in which things turn our mind. So really, what you could say is, in one sense, in these four embracing dharmas, giving, which is the first really includes all of the others. The others are just are basically other modes of giving. So we could say, the mind of the sentient being is hard to change. We should also look at the other side of it, which I'm sure all of us experience and many of us experience with painful consistency in our own lives, which is that the mind of a sentient being is

[14:54]

maybe difficult to change. It's very easy to delude. It's very easy to distract. It's very easy to lead astray into realms of acquisition, desire, and so we have this, these two aspects of mind. The aspect that aspires to our Buddhahood and the aspect that we are in many ways habituated to, that turns us towards distraction, that is always looking for something other than what is right in front of us. And so naturally, we also have the unpredictability of our lives

[15:58]

and the unpredictability of our own minds, and even more so the minds of others. We often make the mistake, or I often make the mistake, of thinking that I might know what another person is thinking. I might base that on their words or their tone of voice or something that they do and then, getting a telephone call, it just stopped. We think that when we know somebody, we think that we know their patterns and we expect them to act in a certain way, and so we put them in a box.

[17:05]

This is a big problem in our world and it's not just that we put others in a box, we put ourselves in a box. We put ourselves in the box of I can't do this or the other side of it is, yes, I really know this. Instead of the space of inquiry, the space of saying, I don't know, I don't know, here's a fresh situation and how do I want to respond to it? And also looking at another person and seeing, this is a fresh situation, let's see how they respond to it. This is where the Bodhisattva never disparaging method is really good. He doesn't turn away. He stays in relationship

[18:17]

to people and even by just putting his energy in that direction, he allows them to change. So today, now we have, we thought we were moving through the pandemic and we were making all kinds of plans for the return of so-called normalcy and then we have the upsurge of the Delta variant and all of a sudden our plans are set aside. And I don't know about you, but I found that it was destabilizing. It was really a painful turn, even though at first I didn't even recognize

[19:29]

the pain and I didn't recognize, this is really important to recognize that when we are unsettled. So in order to look at how we might want to change our mind, we have to investigate very carefully how our mind is manifesting. I think this is a lesson that I learned from Sojin over the years and it was a painful lesson. I remember particularly I was thinking this week about the death of my Dharma sister,

[20:31]

Maitley Scott, who was a friend and teacher to many of us. And Sojin and Mary Mosina and I spent a week in Arcata, mostly at Maitley's bedside as she was dying and she wasn't, she was just breathing, she was far away, she wasn't conscious. And I thought that I was functioning pretty well. But what Sojin read in me was the turbulence of my anxiety. And I did not, I did not accept that when he, when he pointed it out to me.

[21:39]

Because I didn't want to accept that. I wanted to think I can deal with this. And I didn't see how caught in anxiety I was. And he didn't tell me to do anything. He just pointed it out to me. And in time, I came to see that that he was right. And that I really had to pay close attention to my energy. I, there was something I was failing to see about myself. So in that sense, it's like the Bodhisattva never disparaging, actually turning towards himself to see how he was acting.

[22:44]

To see how he was feeling. And to recognize that within that, there was also always the potential of the realization of Buddha nature and of Buddhahood. So this is what we watch and we experience in zazen. If we're not not distracted from what's actually happening, if we are sitting zazen, zazen is just the practice of, you know, keeping the physical posture and the physical manifestation of breathing and noticing the stream of thoughts, perceptions, and sensations. And in a very broad sense,

[23:51]

recognizing one's energy and not turning away from it, but not giving it the power, those energies, the power to, to run or control us. There are various ways to address this question of how to change the mind of a sentient being. And I always include myself in that, in that crew of sentient beings. Particularly in the Mahayana tradition, we have the six paramitas.

[24:55]

And you will often find an explication of that in, in many of the texts in the Lotus Sutra, in the Diamond Sutra, in all the Prajnaparamita literature, in Shantideva's way of Bodhisattva. So we have, I'm not going to go through all the paramitas today, but those are those are the way, ways that we can respond. Lori pointed out to me, she's been reading and studying the Sutra of, of Queen Shramala of the Lion's Roar, which is an early Mahayana Sutra, which is really unusual in that the, the hero of this Sutra is Queen Shramala, who's a woman, and manifests as a Bodhisattva.

[26:04]

And she manifests as a Bodhisattva as a woman, in her woman's body, which is often not the case. Often the case in the Mahayana Sutras, and other Sutras that, yes, the women, somehow, either in that life or in the next life, come to inhabit a man's body, by which they then manifest their Bodhisattva-ness. And I think this is probably, it's not an acceptable understanding for us. It's quite clear that any body is capable of manifesting as Buddha and a Bodhisattva. Anyway,

[27:09]

that's a whole other discussion. But in this Sutra, Queen Shramala talks about how to respond to people who are suffering. In other words, how, how to address the stuckness of their mind, or the stuckness of their situation. And in a, in a short chapter, she, she goes through all of the Paramitas. And she basically says, well, I read you, good sons and daughters who accept the true Dharma, give even their bodies and limbs for those who respond to giving. By protecting these living beings' intentions, they teach them. When they are thus taught and

[28:18]

caused to abide in the true Dharma, this is called the perfection of giving. So in other words, uh, the Bodhisattva identifies, what is the Paramita that people are likely to respond to? Some will respond to giving, some will respond to discipline or morality, some will respond to patience, some will respond to effort, some will respond to meditation, and some will respond to wisdom. All of these are aspects of each other. But these are the tools that, that the Bodhisattva uses to affect or change the minds of sentient beings. I had another example of this, uh, I had an example of this, this week, and it's happened several times in my life. Um,

[29:22]

all of us have had the experience of somehow being out of touch with somebody that we care about. And perhaps there is some, some hurt there, or some insult there, and all of a sudden, the lines of communication are broken. And I know when this has happened to me, um, my first response is, is my, my program response is kind of anger. That I got, I get upset, you know, and I might think, what right did they have to be angry at me? What did I do? I didn't do anything. You know, they're misunderstanding me, and this is not fair. Uh, that's one manifestation of it. Um, and there's a great,

[30:32]

there's a, there's a kind of urgency, or wish to, uh, pointedly respond, or shall we say, retaliate. And fortunately, I have good friends, and I talk to them, and they've helped me contain my reaction. And still, it's hard, it's painful. It's painful to lose connection with people that you care about, for reasons that you may not understand. One of the things that, in the traditional, uh, texts, they suggest, this is from the Vasudhi

[31:37]

Maga, which is a, which is a, uh, sort of an encyclopedia of meditative approaches in the Theravada. Uh, the first, the Vasudhi Maga enlists, lists many approaches that may be done to, uh, somehow resolve this tension, or this conflict. He said, uh, that the first is to recognize one's own responsibility for their feelings. That I may explore, I will, I have, I'm important to explore what's going on with me. Is there some way, even some small way that I have contributed to this?

[32:40]

And, then it moves towards various approaches. As I, I mentioned, uh, finding the approach that's going to work for a person, uh, might be a matter of trial and error. In several cases in my life, I felt such a strong urge to communicate to that person that, to communicate that I feel hurt, and that I'd like to know what's going on. And, I've learned to, I've learned not to do that. And, what I've learned to do is just to stay at a safe distance. This is kind of, Bodhisattva never disparaging this,

[33:54]

he's like the inventor of social distancing. But, to stay at that distance, and just be, be respectful of the other person, and be carefully and intentionally friendly. Not overly friendly, but respectfully friendly. So, if there's any communication, just to, to ask how they are. And, not take it any further. They, that's, that's a bid that I might make, and they can answer or not. Uh, and, the challenge about this is it really means taking the long, the long view. The long view, in, in the particular cases that I can think of are, long view entails years.

[35:04]

Years of just very low-level, but polite, and warm comment. But, not pushing any further than that. And, in these several cases, and this happened last week to me, um, at a certain point, it's happened that the person asks me to help them with something. And, there it is, that's the opening. When that ask happens, I just, I feel, yeah, of course. And, I, without any review, or without any looking back over the course of our relationship, I just do it.

[36:09]

And, there, bit by bit, is the mechanism of changing the mind of a sentient being. The mind that's changed is, in a sense, the other person's, because it's, it's beginning to rebuild the threads and ties of relationship. But, it's also my mind. Because, that request will, helps me recognize there's a mutual wish to connect. So, we're not disconnected. There's a recognition of our connection. And, we can, we can build from there. So, I really, I believe in this process. And, I believe in the, as I said, those principles of the Bodhisattva never disparaging, the principle of not turning

[37:15]

away, and of respect. Respect based on the equality, the equal manifestation of Buddha nature. And, at this respect, the place, again, to come back to ground zero. The place that we develop this is, with respect for ourselves, in, in the act of zazen, in the act of taking that posture, and that breathing, which helps us see, by taking the Buddha's posture, that we are the Buddha. We're not different from the Buddha. And, we have the ability to manifest that. We may have our doubts, but that's what

[38:24]

we're doing in that moment. It gets a lot harder when we move to a wider field. And, I would not profess to have the answer for how this is going to play out, say, in, in Burma, which is under a brutal coup, and now is suffering from just COVID running wild. Or, some place like Israel, Palestine, or in the terrible inequality of, of the terrible, like, racial inequality that manifests in

[39:34]

our cities and places in the United States, and various other kinds of distinction and difference. I think that the fundamental understanding that has to happen is that, whatever spiritual tradition people are acting in, they need to understand the oneness of all beings, of all people, of all beings, the oneness of our, of our being with the planet. And, it's very hard, because we break down into, we retreat into what we think are self-protective

[40:37]

views and actions, whether it's protecting myself, or protecting my family, or protecting my tribe, or my community, or my nation. And, it always is, for every us, in that context, there's a them. The Bodhisattva never disparaging, I think that he only saw us, there was no them. That's a very difficult practice, but I think that's the practice that we would want to aspire to, is to recognize our fundamental connection fundamental connection to other beings, fundamental connection to this world that we inhabit. So, the mind, the mind is that of a sentient being is hard to change,

[41:47]

but when it changes, it can change really quickly. It can just be, you know, it can be a conversion experience, or an inversion experience, that mind just gets turned upside down, and oneself or the person can see the reality of our oneness, the reality of our connection. And, I have really deep faith that that is true and possible. At the same time, I'm not surprised when there are obstacles or diversions from that path along the way. But, I think that's what,

[42:52]

that's what I feel we should be dedicated to, not turning away, and treating everyone and everything with respect, because everyone and everything is not separate from whatever I call myself. So, I think I'm going to stop there and leave time for questions and comments. I'd like to encourage, again, encourage people who are, who speak often to to step back a bit and wait, and people who are not such constant questioners to to take a step and come forward. And also encourage you, please try to ask a question. So, with that, I will leave it to,

[43:54]

is it to Heiko, I think it's Saturday, Director O'Neill. He will tell you what the process is. Thank you, Hossam, for your talk, and thank you everyone for listening closely. If you have a chat to Hossam, or you can join in your question. Thank you. Don't hold back too much. Okay, we have a question from Daniel. Please, Daniel, go right ahead.

[44:58]

When you talked about when you talked about not being too pointed, is there some, can't hear you. Oh, is there some point where it's also important to define a like a mutual like problem to look at? There might be. Yeah, if that's the agreement, if you have an agreement to do that, if both sides want to do that, then that's really helpful. But what I've learned the hard way is that everything,

[46:19]

every difference between myself and someone else, I'm a great believer in words and language. But actually, not every difference or conflict is resolvable in language. Sometimes that's why you have these four embracing Dharma's giving. Sometimes you give a gift. Sometimes you use kind words. Sometimes you use, you do an action like, you know, somebody asked me to help them with something. Or sometimes you actually just work in the garden or in the kitchen together side by side. And that is the resolution of conflict. But if you agree, there certainly are situations in which the airing of perspectives and the making of requests is a

[47:20]

totally useful and valid thing to do. Okay, Susan Osher, please go ahead with your question. Thank you, Heiko. A man asked me for money a few days ago at the Berkeley Bowl parking lot. I was with my granddaughter. I turned and gave him a dollar. It was not enough. He said, I need a miracle. And I said, Yes. What should I have said or done? What can I do?

[48:32]

Well, saying yes is really good. Knowledge that person's perception. All of us make these decisions all the time. You could have, you could have have asked him what miracle he needed. And you know, it's painful. We're always looking at where our time and energy are and where we want to use our time and energy. And we have to make those choices and and live with them. I mean, you could one could say, I imagine, I don't think I'm able to grant a miracle but

[49:40]

but I'd like to know what you need. Sometimes a person's miracle might be a warm place to sleep that night. Which one of us we could help with in some way or other. There's always something incomplete. There's always something missing. And that's really, it's hard to live with ourselves. So I just say that I said that in compassion. Okay, we have a question from Jerry. Go ahead, please, Jerry.

[50:45]

What would you say is the simplest way to live? skillful way of dealing with harmful speech or gossip. One can do that directly or indirectly. indirectly is just to when if that's going on just to have set yourself to leave. More directly is to say is perhaps without leaving to say, I'm really not comfortable with this discussion. And I really want I want you to know that. I don't know. Whatever it is, I think the essence is not to reinforce it.

[52:02]

It's hard, you know, I mean, it's just, I remember being on tour with a band. And it was the first time I was on tour with a band of all guys. And there was a constant banter of sexist jokes and comments. And, you know, we were literally driving across the country in a motor home. And I just, basically, I just removed myself from that, and then spoke privately with a person who I thought was was a source of that. And he was a friend of mine. So it, you know, that was something I could do. If it's a friend, then you already have avenues of communication. And how do you how do you monitor yourself in terms of moving in moving from, for example,

[53:25]

careful communication or concern? And when that crosses over? Well, I, I'm pretty attuned to when I get triggered. So no, there's when something I'm hearing might trigger me and I and it's like, they tell myself to shut up. That's not that's not the moment when I should respond. When I've done that out of some sense of righteousness. I cannot think of any time that's worked out. Well. Yeah, there's always another opportunity. So you're talking about self monitoring, really feeling what's going on in your in your mind and your body when you're saying it. Before you say it, before you say it. Thank you.

[54:33]

Thank you, Jerry. We have a question now from Clay. We haven't heard from in a while. Thank you, Clay. Go ahead. Please unmute yourself, Clay. I think I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Good morning. Morning, Berkeley Zen Center. Well, Alan, I really appreciate what you're saying. And I think you're setting a very high bar, which I think is great. And I realized that it comes from decades of learning. Just thinking of my own experience and it gives me a lot to reflect on. But I also my question is about situations like with intimate friends or families or close friends in which it seems it would be a little bit odd to sort of have this deep,

[55:42]

wounded feeling and not to bring it up in some way. I guess I first wanted to say that. I really like that. We can identify that we are hurt, I'm hurt, I'm feeling hurt, as opposed to reacting right away with some sort of lashing out at someone or criticizing or something like that. But I also am wondering if. So it takes a lot of abiding and patience to sit with that and own that feeling. Yeah. And that's one of the times when like in more in closer relationships where it's time to bring something up as opposed to sit with it. Well, what I can say from my own experience in my more extended family, I'm not going to go into any detail, that

[56:52]

is it's very much like in in docus on or a student teacher relationship. I really, I really wait to see to have a sense of whether there's a door that's open. And there are things in my family that are very hurtful. And that I haven't found a skillful way to, to address them. And so it's not just, but it's not just a perception of my feeling of hurt. It's also a, an attempt to understand how they may be hurt. And some of that really does, there are elements that reflect on, on me, although it's, it's their hurt. And so I just I wait for, I wait for a crack of light in the door.

[58:03]

And that's that crack of light is a kind of, I'm looking for a little bit of an invitation. And if I don't feel that I'm not gonna try to drive a wedge in. But again, it's, it's, it's just like, you may have to take a long view. On the other hand, you know, I had an experience with my family, this is a long time ago. But I was already a priest. And, you know, the mode in my family is a sarcasm and putting people down. It's just like, there's a, there's a, there's a mode of cutting people down. You know, and I felt that from a couple of directions that was constantly

[59:05]

coming at me. And finally, I did feel an opening. And I said, I said, you know, at a dinner said, just, I just want you to know that that hurts. And it never happened again. It's amazing what a few words like that, how powerful it can be. Sometimes I wasn't angry. You know, I wasn't morally judging them. I totally understood the mode of communication. But just to say, those kinds of words, I find them hurtful. They're actually meant to, in some twisted way, they're meant to connect. But, you know, maybe you have to be Jewish. I'm not sure. You don't have to be Jewish. It might help, but it happens everywhere.

[60:08]

Thank you. Thank you, Clay. We have now a question from Ajayan. Please, Ajayan, unmute yourself and go ahead. Thank you, Rosa, and having a wonderful talk again. Good evening. Yes, good evening. Yes, I have two questions. I think this kind of talk I have listened a couple of years ago when you delivered. Yeah. So, if the conflict in communication. So, my first question is, so there are people so we cannot adjust with anymore in our life or maybe within the Sangha, outside of the Sangha. So, in such kind of a time, how do we manage this situation? People, those who are not

[61:11]

adjustable. So, how do we manage this situation? That's really hard. But, actually, what I would say is, we have to have faith that everybody can change. We don't know how. We don't know how that's going to happen, but it's really important to have faith that everybody can change. And, at least, it's not that we all agree. You know, this is one of the principles, I think, of one of the great principles of democracy is not that everybody has the same view. It's that they resolve these, that they can, that they find a way to live with their differences and respect each other as individuals or as a group, whatever, and find

[62:17]

peaceful ways to manifest, peaceful ways to communicate their differences. So, sometimes, that's the best you can do. You know, and I see that happening within Sanghas. You know, it's happening within Sanghas here, not here so much in Berkeley, but it has and it could within other Sanghas and Sanghas in India as well. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Respect is non-violent. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. My second one is something related to the oneness, being oneness. So, there are, there are a social disparity in our community by various socio-political reasons,

[63:24]

right? So, being oneness, maybe it will, I don't know whether it is right or wrong, maybe it will difficult for becoming it. So, the identities are very much relevant in the modern time. So, we are moving with the identities. So, how could it is possible to overcome identities? So, if I overcome the identities, how myself could be? Right. Well, I mean, I think that that's a really good question. And oneness is not an idea. Oneness is actually the way things are. However, since it's not an idea, just to say that things are one is not enough. When you have, you have to make things one.

[64:27]

This is, this is our practice, is the active side of our practice. So, in a lot of, in a number of conflicts, and I know in certain conflicts, and I would say in, in India, in Burma, in Israel, in Palestine, that you can't just declare oneness when the predominance of resources, of power, and wealth are being tightly held by one group, as opposed to another. So, the expression of oneness actually has a practical dimension of the equitable, of equitable access to resources. And that is a political, that's, it's a personal or perhaps

[65:31]

spiritual activity. It's also political activity. And that's where these realms run together. Um, so it's not just you have, you could have dialogue, you know, from now until the end of the world. But if, if there's no change in the balance of resources or wealth, then that dialogue is worthless. It's just worthless hot air. So, I think I'll, I'll stop there before I rant more. I think maybe one more question. Yes, thank you, Ajay. And we have one more question, Hosan Sensei, from Jene. If you'll take it, Jene, go ahead. Thank you, Hosan and Heko. So, and also thank you, Clay, that, that I want to go back to

[66:34]

what you started with, Hosan, about the estrangement, maybe on a personal level, um, that's painful and how to work with that. And you just said in, in answering Clay, you wait for an opening. And I'm wondering about turning that around. And I'm thinking, Charlotte Joko Beck, the abbot of Zen Center San Diego, who I worked with for many, many years, um, gave a Dharma talk on this. And she said, when that had occurred for her, she would have a practice of letting the other person know that she was just there, and she was open. And she would do that sometimes by maybe sending a birthday card every year. And, you know, or some kind of, um, gift, I guess I'll say, or, or extension of herself,

[67:41]

that just let them know that she was there, and she was open to whatever. And I was wondering what you think about that. No, that's, I mean, if I didn't say that overtly, I should have. One of the, one of the actual, uh, there's, there's a whole series in the Visuddhimagga that talks about how do you work with conflict? And, and this also goes to, uh, what I was, what I was talking about, uh, in the Dogon fascicle, giving. So giving something small, it might be a word, it might be a card, but this is, this is conventionally what you do in Buddhism. You, you, it's not just,

[68:43]

I'm, I wasn't advocating just waiting, uh, that you may, you may make a bid also, but it should be very simple bid, not an extravagant bid, just a bid that says, I'm there. And that's, that's what, that's what the Bodhisattva never disparaging did. He just said, I'm there, I'm not going anyplace. And, and I think we have to do it with no expectation of anything coming back or anything particular coming back, but just that's our heart's expression, right? But when you observe the situation really closely and you see that there's an opening, then there's, you know, there's some other way that you can respond. But there's, yeah, there's not an instruction book for this, but there actually, there virtually is an instruction book for this in the Vasudhimaka. I'll, I'll try to find a citation and send it out. Thank you. Okay. Well, thank you all.

[69:47]

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