Good evening, this is another, I think I need this actually, can you hear me? This is another in the Meeting of Buddhism and American Culture series and tonight we have Kaz Tanahashi who spent several years here helping us with Dogen Translations, who's done books on Hakuen, who has a very wonderful Brush book out, as well as working on an introduction to Zen book with David Schneider, and he also spends a lot of his time doing peace work. So when I invited him for this series, I had no idea which of these things he would do or talk about or what would happen, but I knew it would be interesting, so thank you Kaz for coming and I'll take it away. Okay, let's see, maybe we don't need it, put it here, okay, all right, all right.

[01:15]

It's always wonderful to be back here, it's like really home, and at least I have a brush. When I forget to say something or just don't know what to say, I can go back to the brush, so it's one use of the brush. Let's see, David Schneider and I have been working on a book called Essential Zen. The title is really misleading, it sounds like it's essential for Zen and almost it has nothing to do with essential. I think the book is a series of the book called Essential Taoism and Koran and all that, so somehow we are working on that.

[02:21]

It's a collection of Zen stories and teachings and poems from three traditions, Chinese, Japanese and Western. And then he wrote an introduction and then I wrote an introduction, they were so different and we don't know what to do with that, the publisher doesn't know what to do, so we may not have any introduction, maybe so we divide it in half. But when I was writing my own introduction, very short, I thought, well, some Zen stories are really wonderful. The moral of Zen stories is so profound that we can learn a lot, especially Zen humor. And one of the stories I thought, often people tell me this story, and I think this is most

[03:36]

frequently quoted Zen stories, at least in the United States. There's a story about the Zen master, Ti, you've heard of that story, a professor came to the Zen master and asked him a lot of questions and then started arguing with him and then the master poured tea for him and then the cup was full and he kept on pouring the tea. And then the guest was panicked and said, it's full. And then he said, well, you know, it's like this, if your mind is full, you can't learn anything. And then I thought it was from Paul Webb's Zen Flesh and Zen Bones, so I went down to the library and sure enough, it was number one, story one was there. And of course this story is very funny, it's unreal, you know, who would pour tea all over?

[04:41]

But it's very visual, graphic, and also it showed some kind of wisdom about learning. When we learn something, it's really true that we have to be open-minded. And so this story has, I think, a very good lesson. That's why probably it's often quoted. But I think it has a little deeper meaning too. And in my sense, it touches the heart of Zen teaching, which is being completely selfless. And when we are really selfless, we can achieve things. So it's ironical, it's paradoxical dynamics.

[05:43]

You know, when we push, often we get to the wall, but when we are empty, something happens and then there is a way. So I think the selflessness, I guess we are constantly learning this selflessness in this tradition of Zen. And of course, in the European Christian tradition, selflessness is, I'm sure it's a virtue. But often when I work with my colleagues who are Americans, it's very interesting. Often the process is to demonstrate that you are more experienced, you know more, and you have a better idea, and then kind of constantly presenting oneself and say,

[06:47]

so you have to listen to me, and so forth. So there is, I can see the anxiety, always anxiety of trying to demonstrate how powerful the person is and how much influence the person has to give. And so in a way, some of the people are kind of from this East Asian tradition we work. And then that's, at least in a Japanese tradition, people are kind of working very, very hard trying to be, not to be impressive. You know, just trying to just kind of efface and then let something more natural to come. And I'm not suggesting which is better or which works better. I think we need both, I think. We need to be self-effasive, and that's self-effasive or effacing, either way.

[07:53]

That's very important, I think. You know, we need to learn that, but also we need to learn to be articulate. We need to learn to push. And I think that's what I see in the cross-cultural dynamics which is happening in the West when the Zen is interacting with people in the West. I think that's one of the things. Another story I like to think about, I think I've been talking about this often, is a story about Suzuki Oshi. And I guess it was here, I don't know how many years ago. He was very sick, and one of the students came up to him and said,

[09:01]

Suzuki Oshi, where do we meet? And that was kind of a normal question, but a very profound question because he was not expected to live for more than a week. And also the student who asked was supposed to take over his teaching. So where do we meet? That question is like, how do you understand the next life, heaven or paradise or rebirth? How can I tell my fellow students about your understanding of another world? And Suzuki Oshi looked at him in bed and without saying anything he drew a circle in the air.

[10:03]

Recently we did a little research and then called up Richard Baker and said, how was it? And he said, well actually Suzuki Oshi did gassho, and then did circle, and then went back to gassho. In Germany I actually asked in the public to Baker Oshi and said, what does it mean? What did it mean to you when Suzuki Oshi did the circle? Well, Richard didn't say anything. I don't know. But when I was using this in an introduction of the book, I had to at least have some kind of suggestion how I would understand. And my sense is that in the Zen tradition I think the circle meant wholeness,

[11:14]

completeness of the experience, completeness of the experience of each moment. In a way. And often in China, Zen monks do circle usually without a brush. In Japan, usually with a brush. As you know, circles are maybe one of the few symbols in Zen Buddhism. Well, if you have any questions or any comments, please go ahead and respond. And this morning I was talking to David Chadwick, and welcome Zen Failure. He's the author of Journal of Zen Failure, which is coming.

[12:17]

What did he say? And I was actually telling David that this Zen Failure, what a powerful concept. Really, I felt, you know, Initially, Bokuzan, Suzuki Roshi's teacher, Bokuzan, famous Zen master and scholar, was saying that each Zen master has one phrase. And that can somehow encompass the entire teaching of his or her life. And Dogen has like Genjo Koan. We translate it as actualizing the essential point. But the entire teaching can go to that.

[13:20]

Or another teacher says, you know, dropping of body and mind. Or, some Zen name says, don't know, which is a very powerful teaching, don't know mind, his book. So, maybe expressing the same experience, but different words. And I feel, you know, I may be wrong, but maybe in 50 years, people might think your Zen Failure is your teaching. Well, it's quite heavy to me. I think my, sort of, I have been questioning. Okay, Dogen's teaching is like the way, the path of spiritual pursuit can be like a path, you know. Visual, you can see the goal is somewhere else.

[14:28]

And you go just around and around and up and down. And then you work very hard and get closer and closer to the goal, but it's still far away. So that's maybe one very typical image of the way. But he was also suggesting that way can be circle. Each moment, the circle is complete. Practice enlightenment, momentariness and timelessness is experienced or can be experienced each moment. So, it's like maybe one moment is complete and another moment is complete. We can also maybe ignore or miss it. Maybe most of the time we miss it. But we can be also aware of that. We can experience that wholeness of each moment. So, it looks like a kind of brushwork, Zen brush.

[15:32]

This is quite organic and it has all elements. You know, some part is sort of beautiful, some part is broken. And next moment, it's complete but it's different shape. And even the same artist, you know, each moment is different. And different artist, different person has different circle. But still complete, it can be complete. So, that's Dogen's image of the path. But I was often wondering, well, how do we personally experience actually the completeness of each moment? You know, is it possible? I mean, with all our desire and anxiety and anger and resentment and confusion, how do we experience fullness?

[16:36]

And I think this is a question. And then I came across Zen failure. Wow! Maybe, each moment we are actually, we live in failure. You know, this continuous defeat each moment. And just failure and failure and failure and sometimes failure fails. And maybe more and more frequently failure fails. But to be kind of, to deny the failure is very easy or not to ignore it or not to face it. We just sort of get away from that. You know, we don't want to think about our failure. We have some kind of a little better self-image.

[17:40]

Other people would point out that your image is not that but this. Then we get so upset. But this, if we become really friends with the failure and say this is our life. Everyone is living the life of continuous continuation of failure. You know, this is life. I mean, and then we can make fun of it. Like David is the master of, fun of ourselves. And in that way, I think the failure maybe is the only way to make each moment complete. To be, you know, because this is the reality. Does it make sense? But another danger is that we can just then hide in that kind of safe realm of failure and we don't do anything.

[18:44]

We need to maybe work for victory in a way. I think we need to have some objective or changing situation. And then change the social settings. I think we, it's important that we acknowledge victory. We look for victory and then we, things are, when things are working well, when we are changing actual situation, in our peace work or environmental work, we should acknowledge it. We should really celebrate our victory. However, there is no full victory whatsoever by definition. So I don't think it's right to claim a full victory.

[19:47]

It's wrong. It's a kind of denial or deception. And then how do we claim victory? That's one of my maybe questions. I don't know, but I think our intention, even if we are being defeated each time when we try, try to change the destruction of the environment or whatever, we often, almost always, feel defeat. And I think, in a way, to accept defeat fully is, in a way, a way, maybe a way of victory. To really understand our situation, accept it, still working hard in a way. Well, let me just go to culture.

[20:51]

Yeah, recently I sort of discovered something. That is, I discovered the circle. It's kind of embarrassing to say. And also, maybe one of the things is that I started using color. So you might call it a Zen circle, but usually I don't call myself Zen or Zen whatever. So it's like just a circle. And multicolor circle. How do you do a multicolor circle by one stroke? I was thinking about it for a long time, and then once I found a way, it was so simple. And then I was invited to go to the Parliament of World Religions.

[22:04]

That happened in September in Chicago, 100th year anniversary of the Parliament, to do some performance. So I thought, well, it's nice to do a circle. It's nice to do a multicolor circle. Also, maybe it's nice to honor the diversity of nearly all the spiritual traditions on Earth that would get together in Chicago. So maybe I thought it would be nice to build the world's largest brush. And then draw a circle on the world's largest canvas. This world's largest circle on the canvas. Canvas may not be so large, but anyway. So I designed a brush which was like octagonal shape with a little skirt made of copper.

[23:08]

And then it has felt, so-called bristle. So it'll be like six feet all together. And then it has four handles, so four artists can draw a circle together. And then there was a tank, and then that tank would hold 150 pounds of paint. And then there was a valve, so there was a plumbing system there. And then we stretched the canvas 24 feet, and then about 20 feet. Of course, you can't find such a big canvas. So we had it in three strips, and there was a little bit gap in between. So it can show the kind of unity of the spiritual tradition, but also the gaps. We have a lot of gaps. So that was, it was kind of chaotic, yeah.

[24:14]

Well, we did a test run in Green Gulch, in Iraq. And it was a little smaller, 18 feet, 16 feet by 20 feet or something. And then somehow I did the test. It was okay. And then we brought a brush, and then we put the paint in there, you know. And then somehow the valve was open, so there was, the water was all over. Paint was all over the canvas. Very thin paint, so you know. So yeah, it was just so chaotic. And there were some people who were watching. It was just a little more people. Then we had to kind of manage the crisis. We had some cloths, and then wipe it off. And then we did the circle. And then in Chicago, too, I think there was another flood.

[25:17]

And then there was a Native American group of people who were drumming and chanting. And then there was a very wonderful Tiffany Dome. Very elaborate. A former library. And then about 300 people were there. And we did the circle. Yeah, it was a little chaotic. So I said, you know, this is kind of what our world is. A lot of, you know, just a lot of confusion. That's how we are. Anyway, so this is what I'm trying to do. Also, I made a proposal to do a Circle of Americas in Mexico in May or so. And maybe in San Francisco next year, for the 50th year of signing of the United Nations Charter,

[26:24]

I'm proposing doing a circle. Maybe eight people. Five strips of canvas. Let me maybe show you how it might work or how it might not work. Yeah, that's what I said. You know, like when there was this flood on the canvas, I said, you know, we are kind of trying to experiment something that's never been done. The brush, usually the brush, there's an assumption that the brush works. But this time, not. We look pink. Yeah, great like this.

[27:41]

Thomas. I'll be very careful. When the Gulf War was approaching, a friend of mine and I did a performance. Some people did the performance together using a big brush, human-sized brush. And creating an image of war. The black thing and the red thing. You performed it in this room once. Right, yeah, yeah, right. But before that, I did it at the Bay Bridge Books in Oakland. And this friend of mine, the actor, a young actor, who read the poem, which I have written.

[28:50]

If we go to war, then this happens. And then he had so much energy. After I did the black brush stroke, he splattered red paint like this. And then it got to some of the audience. And then one lady showed me a white purse, a kind of leather purse. And it has red spots. And then one year later, she said, do you remember this? Another poem. You know, you embarrassed me twice. So it's okay, it's okay. In Chicago, we asked children to put paint.

[30:08]

Of course, in the East Asian tradition, you never have a kind of circle painted before. Do you see it? No, you never have a design. Okay. Doesn't look like we are going to have a flood tonight.

[31:25]

What do you think? Beautiful. Maybe I should stop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How long does it take to paint a drawing? How long does it take to paint a drawing? It depends on, I think, you know, if we rented a pen, then do it, you know. Run it, I think, you know, overnight, I think one night.

[33:18]

It depends on the thickness of the paint. Probably this will take three days to draw, because it's... You know, it's a dance theater, right now. It's a dance theater. Are you going to use the brush? Yeah. On that? Uh-huh. It's so gorgeous. I know. So maybe we should just enjoy the present moment. Well, we'll have it recorded in a minute. That's great. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. Let's see. Maybe a little more touch-up.

[34:53]

Uh-huh. That's great. That's great. I don't know. You know, we don't need to make any kind of interpretation or anything. It's just a circle as it is. But also maybe I could think, you know, this is maybe one step beyond the traditional circle, which is monochrome. But also maybe we could invite more elements, you know, emotional elements and all kinds of problems, social problems, environmental problems.

[36:05]

All these concerns can be kind of part of each moment. And my sense is that each moment is not really complete if we are not taking responsibility and taking action for the future. And of course, you know, each of us has a cycle. Sometimes we retreat. We don't do things. We are not engaged in social action or something. Maybe we're fully sort of withdrawn, you know, going to a monastery or whatever. Maybe that's very important too, I guess. And some people are doing this maybe for us. When I was working, you know, against nuclear arms race in early 80s, you know, people in Tassara would say, well, I'm sorry I can't help you. I'm just doing, you know, practice here in Tassara in the mountain.

[37:12]

But I said, you know, it's very important that, you know, you are here. You are just providing us inspiration, you know, insight. You know, what you are here and you say you don't do anything. That's very important. That's, you know, and also maybe as a person, sometimes we need to be in retreat, I think. And that gives us energy to come back to action. So, in a way, the circle, I don't know, can mean maybe different to each one of us. Thank you. Any questions or comments?

[38:17]

When you say East Asian tradition, what do you mean? East Asian tradition, basically this brush tradition came from Chinese calligraphy. How you use brush, you know, in a kind of vertical way with straight posture and relaxation, but also real concentration, which can be described as maybe chi. Chi is a kind of a gentle force, but relaxed, but fully focused. And then it's more allowing spontaneity. And based largely in the realm of non-thinking, you know, which is cultivated, of course, by a lot of repetition, repetitious practice. And so you have some kind of inner force there, and that is transmitted to the form.

[39:29]

So that's maybe East Asian. And Japanese artists would study Chinese, ancient Chinese calligraphic masterpieces. And, yeah, what I'm talking about is maybe one nice, do I say Asian? No, usually I say East Asian tradition. Yeah, maybe. And then the area where Chinese calligraphy and system of writing and maybe way of thinking spread, you know, Korea or Vietnam or Mongolia, that area. Yeah. We share sort of the same kind of tradition, which has much to do with Buddhist, Taoist way of understanding, I guess. I just had this feeling that actually to really appreciate this circle, I should circumambulate it, because that was the flow of how you used the brush.

[40:39]

That could be another part of this. Not only the creation of it, but actually following the flow of the energy. Are you suggesting that I should go around, or I don't know? No, I think you should. When your talk is over, we can all walk around it. Yeah, that's what happened, you know. This Lakota people actually led the dance, and then the audience just went around and around with music. And then one of them kind of told the meaning of the circle, of the sacred tradition for Native American people, which was, I think it was very inspiring, you know, its circle of people, equality and wholeness.

[41:44]

And then two days later or something, they led the entire big gathering in a park, like 30,000 people, with Dalai Lama. They closed the parliament, and then they actually led the big circle. How does the size of the brush affect you in the act of painting? You know, the bigger the brush is, the more you have to surrender. The brush has more control, and you have less control. So in a way, I think it's a good practice to surrender yourself. And when I teach, I often tell people that, you know, we need to learn to use our non-thinking, unconscious part of ourselves.

[42:57]

Our designing mind is so small, you know, it's just, let's do this and do this, and think, thinking. But if we release that designing mind, and then bring a larger part of ourselves, a vast part of our consciousness, unconscious part, then every painting you make is beautiful. Every stroke you make is beautiful. And of course, people don't believe, you know, it's... So what I'll do is ask people to just draw, and then just have two pages of newspaper, and then put small pieces of paper, like Xerox paper, and then ask people to draw like this. Two pages is a real area. You have to use the brush, entire portion. But what is painted is just so small.

[44:01]

And then, wow, this is wonderful, you know. And then gradually, people kind of have trust in kind of this process. Okay. It's very hard to give up thinking. But, you know, then once you see, wow, this is wonderful, this is not, you know, something I normally do, but this is beautiful. For example, let's see. So, let's see. This is a... Let's say this is the painting. This is the paper. Okay. And then we have this brush. Let's do it like this. And then this is, you can see, you know, it's beautiful. So it will be maybe something like this, something like this. And it's quite amazing that once you think maybe less, you can...

[45:07]

So in a way, the brush, the bigger the brush is, you know, we can't think so much. And the reason I have this circle here is position. You know, I don't have to kind of think so much. You know, if the position is already decided, I don't have to think. It's kind of cheating, according to East Asian tradition. They would think this is horrible. You know what I mean? You have some kind of a machine for enlightenment or something, you know. And how do you... How do you... Well, you respond to it by doing this, but is there a conflict for you in considering that while you're doing this? Conflict? Yeah, is there a conflict or is that something... You know, first of all, no one can really stop thinking or stop designing.

[46:11]

So it's a kind of a degree, you know, how... And always like that. And artwork is like that too. I think, for example, maybe if I want to stop this blood, I could go and maybe plot it and stop it. I usually don't do that, but, you know... Thank you. Perfect. I failed. But also, when we want to... surrender, and often I do, I let things run.

[47:14]

Either way... I think it's a choice. And sometimes you want to have a little more thinking. Sometimes maybe... You want to have less thinking. So, like when you see the circulars... Do different circles bring different things to mind? Or... Yeah, I like to have a kind of different names. So, like at the disarmament conference in Cambridge, I did a circle for peace. I asked people, everyone, and I had some paint and asked people to draw a circle. Thinking of their peace work. This is their peace work, circle. Maybe you have problems, organizational problems, or...

[48:20]

You can draw a problem in their work. Or you can have some dream for your work. So everyone did a circle. And, yeah, circle of the world. Maybe I might call it circle of the way, because we talked about the way. And circle of Americas in Mexico. And circle of healing, maybe, in Jerusalem. So, you know, maybe... And then maybe think of the colors, or size, and maybe the artist who would be working, or music, or... So, in a way, like Webb said... Well, I said to Webb that I'd become a salesman of a circle. I heard he was calling me. In the lecture. But, yeah, who can sell circle?

[49:23]

I mean, circle belongs to everyone. And I think that's one of the reasons I really like circle. Because, you know, it's not my invention, or... But still, I think each circle can be unique. And, you know, you can say your art. And also, you know, I don't mind some of our friends who start doing circles. You know, I mean... I don't say that's mine, you know what I mean? Are there some circles that you're more pleased with than others? Or are you less hopeful about all circles? I think the circle I'm most pleased with is the next one. I'll be better, maybe. When you're thinking about what you'd like to be represented,

[50:27]

when you're thinking about the piece, when you're thinking about the world, do you pick certain colors because they represent that to you? Or is the color the combination? Yeah, I did the circle at John Halifax's place, the Iwai Foundation in Santa Fe. He invited me to come over for the New Year Eve and the New Year Days. And then, you know, I thought, well, some people are sick there, and then we need healing. And we need some transformation for the New Year. So I thought, well, maybe we should do gold. And usually I don't wear gold. Well, I'm not telling the truth. My daughter gave it to me, so I'm wearing it. But usually I don't wear gold. And, you know, stay away from gold. It's kind of an image of wealth. But also gold has a kind of profound spiritual meaning.

[51:32]

It's a sense of, I think, eternity and sense of maybe transformation. I think it's a very profound, powerful image. And that was the first time. Usually I prime the canvas white. But that was the first time I primed the canvas with black gesso like this. And then we did gold. Did you use, like, real gold in the painting? No, this is gold. Well, let's say golden, you know, golden. And then I had to put a little glitter, some kind of, you know, nickel. In Japan you can get tea and sake and sushi. Even there you can get various things with real gold. Gold beads, yeah. It's supposed to be good for your body.

[52:33]

It somehow stimulates some... And they do it on New Year's, too. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, this is maybe, you know, kind of American. This shows how much I'm maybe Americanized. And I think that's why, that's part of the reason I really enjoy being here. Because a friend of mine, you know, said she takes coffee with soy sauce. You know, in Japan, you've been in Japan, so it's a crime, right? I mean, you know, there are certain things you never do. I mean, you never do. I mean... And I think, you know, in many ways we are sort of defined.

[53:39]

I think in the old culture, especially, all kind of definition. And then, well, they mastered to poem certain style, circle, calligraphy certain style. And then they've been doing it for hundreds of years. And in a way, it's just wonderful because it's such a same thing, common image. And then it really, kind of very honest to you, you represent the profundity of the person. Or how shallow the person, how sort of, how do you say, nervous people are. Or sort of trying to be smart or, you know, it's amazing. Even in this circle, it can represent.

[54:40]

And that's why it's kind of scary when students say, Master, would you write something for me? And the spiritual teachers, even business leaders often sort of expected to be a good calligrapher. And then somehow presented, and this is how I understand the way. So, maybe a hundred years later, people would say, Wow, this person was so nervous. So, it's a very scary thing. I mean, if someone said, Do me a favor, do something. But of course, some of the greatest pieces, like Hakuin, kind of were done that way. But isn't it wonderful? It's kind of interaction.

[55:43]

Of course, it's beyond, I mean, how it comes out. It's sort of beyond design. I think so. First of all, I did a lot of piecework against nuclear arms race. And then, actually, it started here, in the center, in 1980. Kind of that time when we were just so concerned about the next day, whether we would wake up. And then I was kind of translating 13th century text.

[56:44]

And then I had no idea this book would be published. It was a really hard time. So, like many people, I was compelled to do the piecework. I was also painting, but they were completely separate. And I started doing one-stroke painting in 1980. So, it's about the same time. And how can you make a political statement by one-stroke? No, you can't do it. So, then one time I had this idea, 1984 or something. Maybe I should create an image of the end of the world by nuclear war. You know, I can do all this. So, I created a series of paintings called Stop the Arms Race War.

[57:48]

So, I think the piecework and brushwork was coming together. I started doing, as I told you, black and red. And then when the war started, I started envisioning peace. So, I used more like blue color and did some more performances. Yeah, environmental work. I think our concern is our person. The concern is a person. And then the person is art. So, I think it's all related. And so, I have started a series called Koans for planetary survival.

[59:05]

And Koans are usually the questions, of course, you all know, given by Zen masters to students. And then I thought, well, maybe, you know, I'm not a Zen master. So, I'm a student. So, why don't I give it to a Zen master, you know, a Koan? So, I called up a Zen master, Zen teacher. So, I said, hey, John, I want to give you a Koan. Would you like it? And he said, yeah, okay. Then I said something like, I forgot. Oh, yeah. How does this miracle continue? And he said, how do you like it? And she said, I love it. I don't know if she has an answer for that one. I'm waiting.

[60:08]

So, I created a so-called single copy poster. And then painted like an eggplant. And then, it doesn't look like an eggplant, so it doesn't, anyway, no one can tell it's an eggplant. And then I had a letter, you know, like a signed letter. You know, like a typewritten, but bigger one, signed. How does this miracle continue? Actually, it's at the Zen hospice now. It's my sort of, my wish that maybe people are suffering. Can really, can live each moment. But also, maybe we work for keeping this miracle continue.

[61:11]

Another one was like a circle. It was the first, actually, multicolor circle. And it says, it's small. And it says, can we recycle as nature does? And of course, if you say yes, we can. That's not true. And if you say, no, we can't, then we can't survive. It's a very tough question. When we design an automobile, you know, we have to really think in that way, I think. So, co-answer, you know, like, I'm not supposed to be able to be answered by intellectually, or yes or no, or something. It's a kind of a struggle every day. And another one is like a kind of a chaotic image. And then, the top part is more, not so chaotic, green.

[62:17]

Underneath, it's kind of red. And it says, can we stop violence, non-violence? And that was kind of responding to my question. I felt good about doing peace work, trying to stop the war and being defeated. But in a way, I felt it was not really enough to try to stop the war, or even to stop the war. Because there was violence in Kuwait. And we have to stop the violence there. So, not to send troops was not a kind of solution all by itself. I almost lost that brush. Acrylic paint, you know, it gets dry and then that's it.

[63:20]

So, yeah, I'm not sure, but maybe in some ways, it's environmental work and thinking. And also, I think understanding of the circle, really kind of being fully attentive of our relationship with colleagues and working together. I feel it's very important, having fun and enjoying it. And I always say to my colleagues that if we don't have fun, we shouldn't do environmental work.

[64:22]

Just forget about it. It's very important. But the most important thing is that we have fun and we work together in an enjoyable way. Otherwise, just let the environment destroy. We can do something else, maybe have fun. Of course, each moment, as I suggested a moment ago, each moment is a kind of a failure. So, I'm not suggesting that our group has no problem or, you know, working very well. It's not true. There can always be some kind of struggle and problems we have to solve, which is also kind of fun. Thank you very much for setting the brush.

[65:23]

Thank you for watching the brush. Good night. Thank you. It's up here.

[65:42]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ