I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagatas with... Good evening. Well, last time we talked about the skandhas and the dharmas. a little bit about prajna and about emptiness. And I just want to say that the word prajna, which means wisdom, actually, these kinds of words, prajna or emptiness, which is sunya, are really not describable. So we have some definitions, you know. Oh. Yeah, what volume?

[01:02]

Volume. Volume. So these terms really are are not definable exactly, but we talk around them. And through talking about this, you get some feeling for what they are, or the meaning, the meaning of prajna and the meaning of emptiness. But at shunya, for lack of a better term, we say emptiness. And so we just accept. Void is also another term that is used for emptiness. Tibetans, I think, like to translate it as void. Chinese like to translate it as void.

[02:05]

Japanese translate it as emptiness, I think. And we use the term emptiness more. Void has the feeling of nothing there. So there's emptiness, but what we mean by emptiness is interdependence or no inherent existence. Inherent existence means something that exists by itself, for itself, independent of relationship. So, everything exists dependent on relationship. It's interesting that, I think that there's a tank called the anti-gravity tank or something like that, where you put the person in the tank and they

[03:14]

supposedly leave their relationship to everything else, but it still doesn't work. Except that samadhi is related to everything. in boundlessness. Yeah, it has its difficulties too. So everybody's reaching for some way to define, but I think leaving it at just pointing is good, because as soon as you say, oh, this is the meaning, then you limit the meaning.

[04:21]

So that's the problem with meanings or definitions. As soon as we think we have the meaning, then we stop grasping or we stop reaching for the meaning. So all those attempts are really good. And so we just need something to say that, okay, number 16, right? Like the joke number 16, okay, we know what that means. I mean, I don't know, maybe not. She said nobody's had Sanskrit as their mother tongue for over 2,000 years. Or something like that. Yeah, long time, long time ago.

[05:24]

Be that as it may, I don't want to dwell on this. I just wanted to kind of mention that. So last time, we talked about the dharmas, but I also gave you a list of 18 meanings of shunyata. Actually, I gave you two lists. And so I just thought we'd talk about that a little bit. because it would take too long to really study the whole thing. But just to kind of go over it a little bit, this list was commented on by Sokeon Sasaki. Sokeon actually married Ruth Fuller, and she became Ruth Fuller Sasaki. who had a temple at Daitoku-ji called Ryo-sen-an, Little Temple, and a monk

[06:38]

a Rinzai monk named Gitai came to Berkeley Zen Center from Japan and stayed with us for about eight months or something like that. We had a good time. Then he went back. His teacher wanted him to take over that temple. So, that's where he is today. And if you go to Daito-koji in Ryosennan, you might be able to stay there overnight or something. So, light okay? These are the 18. The other list I gave you was 16. There may be more, but 16 is pretty good. 18 is pretty good. One is, inside is empty, Outside is empty.

[07:40]

Inside and outside are empty. Emptiness is empty. The great elements are empty. Reality is empty. Creative purpose is empty. Purposelessness is empty. The conclusion is empty. The beginningless is empty. Undoing phenomena is empty. Your own nature is empty. All existence is empty. One's own appearance is empty. The ungraspable is empty. Non-existence is empty. Existence is empty. And they made a mistake here, but at the end of the commentary, it's corrected by saying, non-existing existence is empty. So these are all kind of mind bogglers. I read the first one last time in answer to a question, but I'll read it again because it's pretty good, the commentary.

[08:45]

It said, the inside is empty. Adhyatma, adhyatma, adhyatma means one supreme spirit, the highest spirit of an individual. That individual spirit is empty. According to Buddhism, the inside has six ayatana, or entrances, five entrances from the outside to the inside. The entrances are the five senses. Those are to the outside, so-called, inside you and outside this body. So the entrances are the five senses. And the one more is mind consciousness, which is inside. And mind consciousness discriminates between the six, the five sense consciousnesses, so that we understand that this is hearing, this is seeing, and tasting and touching, and so forth.

[09:54]

Because if we didn't have that mind consciousness, we couldn't tell the difference between one or the other. So it distinguishes between, the mind consciousness has the awareness that says, this is hearing, this is seeing, I hear this. Maybe you don't have to say I, but I hear this, I see this. So that's basically what mind consciousness does, but it also thinks about these things without being self-centered. So these entrances are the five senses, and one more hidden inside. So altogether there are six senses. And inside is the highest supreme spirit. All is empty, which means there is no ego or Atman in it. Atman is a Sanskrit word for ego. Atman and dharmas.

[10:55]

Yes. Well, it means self here. Actually, in a general sense, in technical terminology, in Mahayana Buddhism, to my knowledge, it means self, because the emptiness of Atman and the emptiness of Dharmas. So the emptiness of Atman means emptiness of self, whether it's the observer or whatever. and emptiness of atman, I mean of dharmas. So all agree, all Buddhists agree that there is no atman, which is self. And it may be used as observer, I don't deny that, but basically it's used as self.

[12:00]

And all, But not everyone thought that all dharmas are empty. And that's kind of what the Heart Sutra is talking about. Because all dharmas, as well as Atman, as well as the Self, both are empty. Just a little bit of information, people. In Hindu tradition, Atman will have a really different understanding, so this is in opposition to a Hindu understanding about it. Yeah, I think it is, that's right. So, the Hindus use it in a different sense, in a sense. The Hindu self, but they take it as something eternal and indestructible. That's right, the eternal self, that's very important. And that's what Buddhism was objecting to. Because the Atman is, and this is what Dogen talks about a lot, the Shrenika heresy. Shrenika was a monk in Buddhist time, and I won't go into the whole story.

[13:09]

And the Hindu view of Atman is something substantial, which transmigrates from one life to another. It's called the soul, actually, or the self. And Buddha objected to that, and Dogen criticized that all the time, that we should be careful not to fall into that kind of understanding, that the self is something that, sometimes it's described in various ways, you know, as a little light or a little something. But the body becomes formed around this Atman. and it transmigrates from one life to another, and it's the subtle body. And Buddhism objects to that kind of understanding. So there's nothing substantial.

[14:17]

And Almost all religions have a kind of Atman of some kind, except Buddhism. But Buddhism has a tendency to fall into that sometimes. The Pudgalavadins was one of the eighteen schools of Buddhism. Pudgala means a self, a soul. And they ascribed to the theory of a soul. That's just one of the schools. But all the other schools start throwing rocks at them. Not really. But they objected to that as not really being pure Buddhist understanding. The tendency always arises, and it's really hard not to come up with that. It's very hard to stay independent of that kind of idea. when we're talking about things spiritual, because then we think of the spirit as something separate.

[15:24]

So this is very prevalent in almost all religions, is that the soul and the spirit is different from the mundane. And Buddhism says there's no difference. What is mundane is spirit, what's spiritual is mundane. except there's still the tendency to escape from the world. Well, it's more like that, yes, but it's more like, not all beings, it's like, Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. That's what the Song Sutra is talking about. In other words, spirit is not different than form, and form is not different than spirit.

[16:31]

So if you want to find the spiritual, you find it through the common. So high and low are simply contrasts. So Buddhism is very radical, especially Mahayana. Mahayana Buddhism is very radical, especially Zen. It's very radical because it takes everything away. And so, as you can read, the 18 emptinesses just take everything away. And then when everything is taken away, then you know who the boss is. Ross asked about Friday, I was giving a talk about something about taking away and he said, well, who is the boss?

[17:41]

So I want to talk a little bit about who is the boss. And he said, well, what does Suzuki Roshi say? He always talked about, you should be the boss. But then, who are you? Who's the boss? If there's no self, no soul, and no deity, who's the boss? It's a big koan. And then, so, I said that I would talk, I did mention this koan of, What's his name? Talking about... Zuigan. Zuigan asks himself. Zuigan. Yes. Don't be fooled by anything. Yes, Master. Yes, Master. So, which is the Master and which is Zuigan?

[18:46]

This is the great koan. So who's talking to who, and who is the master? He says, Zui Gon says, Zui Gon. And Zui Gon says, yes, master. So who's the master? Which one is which? When Zui Gon and Master become one, then you know who the boss is, because both disappear. This is very much like the story of Seijo and her soul. Seijo and her soul united. They disappeared. That's another story, but it's a good one, yes. Might it be almost accurate to say emptiness is the law?

[19:51]

Well, it's too much of a definition. Yes, you can say that, but that's You are the boss." Suzuki Roshi gave this talk, which is in Not Only So. Who is the boss? He said, you should be the boss. He used to say that a lot, but he didn't mean He said, if you don't understand this, you'll think that I mean you should boss everybody around. That's not what that means. It's not that you are bossing everybody around. It's that you know who's in control. As soon as you let go of everything and resume your original mind, then you know who the boss is.

[21:06]

It was reminding me of the story of Trungpa Rinpoche. He would have his students drive him around and have him stop in front of the neighbor's house in the middle of the night and honk the horn. And they did that every night for four or five nights. On the fifth night, the guy came running out with a shotgun and said, if you keep doing that, I will kill you. And so the student says to Trungpa, why do you keep asking me to do this? That's right, you should know your own mind. So, this is the point, when you let go of everything, then you know who the boss is. So in a way, it's like not so much the emphasis on being the boss as taking a stand so that you're not bossed around, pushed around by your needs this way or that way or what somebody says or what you feel.

[22:44]

That's the way I've understood that lecture. That's right. You're not pushed around by your feelings or your emotions or your thoughts or your anger and so forth, so on and so forth. So you're always settled and centered on essence of mind. Not to discount them or ignore them. No. Just that you're not enslaved by them. You're not enslaved by them. And I was talking with Richard about forgiveness. Forgiveness, I believe the essence of forgiveness means that you're not caught by your emotions and feelings, and you can let go of your attachment to the person that you're forgiving. It's not that everything is okay. It's that you're no longer bound by your attachment

[23:53]

and then you free the other person so that there can actually be some interaction on a level that's not driven by emotion thought. Who is it that's talking to whom? Yes, who is it that's talking to whom? So he says, these elements, the entrances are the five senses, and one more hidden inside.

[24:58]

So altogether there are six senses, and inside is the highest supreme spirit. All is empty, which means there is no ego. Atman. That's what we left off. Atman. That's got us into this thing. For example, the eye has no ego. There is no master in it. The ear has no spiritual center. And the rest of the senses have no spiritual centers. So people think the one inner sense is the king. Think it belongs to you. We Buddhists do not think it is an individual spirit. You think it is yours, but from the Buddhist standpoint, it is no one's. It is consciousness, and consciousness is not yourself. There is no consciousness which is called you or I, so the inside is empty. So this leads into no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, right?

[26:00]

Maybe I'll just go on from there and refer to this from time to time. The sutra says, O Shariputra, for us talking to our Shariputra again. And this is the third proposition. O Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. That means that their fundamental mark is emptiness. As I said before, true form, which is no form. They do not appear, all dharmas, they do not appear nor disappear, which sort of means they are not born and don't die. Are not tainted and not pure. Do not increase nor decrease.

[27:08]

So this kind of statement, they do not appear or disappear, which means they are not born or do not die, means that life itself is continuous. Although we say I am born and die, or things come into existence and go out of existence, they arise and cease. That's so on a comparative level. But because there's no entity that has its own inherent existence, there's really nothing that's born or dies. is only arising and ceasing, arising and falling. So the comparison is to the ocean, right? The ocean is this big sea of life, and the waves are created by the wind.

[28:20]

So waves have a cause, and they arise because of conditions, sun, moon, and so forth, and wind. and then the wave goes back to the ocean. So, instead of thinking of an individual soul, you can think of a world soul or a universal soul. A soul, I think, means one. So, the oneness is shared and the individual manifestations are simply waves on the ocean of existence. So when you look at the ocean, we don't think of the wave is born and the wave dies. We simply see the rising and falling of the waves as the activity of the ocean.

[29:25]

So even with when we see the waves moving, right? It looks like the wave is moving. That's the appearance. But actually, the water is just rising and falling, and the energy is moving. So energy is moving, and that's what we see, but it appears as the wave moving, but the water There is a movement of water, but basically the water rises and falls. So we say, well, where do I go? I'm born from someplace, and then I die and I go someplace. But actually, do we go someplace? Do we come from someplace and go to someplace? Our understanding, actually, is that since we're always here, We don't come from someplace else and go someplace else.

[30:30]

We simply rise and rise up and lay down in the ocean of existence. So nothing is really lost. Nothing that is substantial is really lost. There are only elements which are coming together and disintegrating, integrating and disintegrating. But those elements themselves are empty. and Hinduism, whether or not there was the view, the definition of what it was, was a variation. Well, maybe I'll get to a point that way you can understand what I'm saying.

[31:35]

Okay, Buddha had 500 lifetimes or however many lifetimes. What was that which was reborn? Yeah, well that's always been the question. What is it that's reborn? Not the same. It's not the same. Or in Buddhism, Bodhisattva, the definition of Bodhisattva is somebody who returns to the world. Some people take that literally. In some sense it's like reading the Bible. I think some people take rebirth and reincarnation literally.

[32:41]

That's one side. Buddhists. Other Buddhists see it as a kind of way of thinking about energy. And there are several theories in Mahayana Buddhism about what happens in the area of so-called rebirth. So, first it's important to understand that rebirth is not reincarnation. Some people think rebirth is reincarnation. Well, reincarnation means that you are reincarnated as yourself. And you can remember your past lives. I myself, I don't like to settle on a definition because it's too easy.

[33:51]

Oh yeah, I'm glad I know what happens now. So to not get, for me, to not let myself get settled on some definition which gives me some security, feeling, helps me to keep trying to understand what actually, what happens with energy. With energy, according to science as far as I know, the energy of some existent entity continues in some way. And the rings of energy are continually continuing. And then that energy mingles with other energies and creates various things.

[34:55]

So whether we whether our energy returns as you, which there is no you, really. The way that it's really described, one way that it's described is like lighting a candle with another candle. If you have a light, then you light the candle with the other light. Now, is it the same light or is it a different light? So the energy is called action influence, actually, action influence. The energy of a human who is disembodied, we call it dying, continues in some way, and then that's theoretically

[36:02]

linked with something else, another birth. So one way of thinking about rebirth is as a cycle. And that's, you know, that's pretty interesting. Like, here's the horizon, right? The Earth. The flat, the Earth is flat, as we know. And then there's a circle that's called my life. You know, from this date to that date. makes a semicircle, and then there's another circle that comes around and starts again, right? That's kind of the theory of rebirth, is that the energy, after disintegration of the body, is somehow embodied and comes up and enters the area, the sphere of appearance I don't know about artificial insemination, but it enters the parents and then continues in another birth.

[37:14]

So this is theoretically a possibility. You can build all kinds of structures around that possibility, and people do. I don't know what happens. So I don't say yes or no to anything in that realm, except that I don't believe in reincarnation. I can say that because something can't possibly reincarnate the same way it was. Nothing can ever be the same as it was. But rebirth has some interesting notions. Charlie? How do you relate those past thoughts of yours to Dogen's firewood and ash?

[38:22]

Well, that's an interesting... yes, because Dogen uses... and so does Nagarjuna, actually. I think that Dogen got this from Nagarjuna. that firewood is in the state of being firewood, it has its before and after, and then ash is in its dharma state, dharma position, as ash after it's been burned, right? Although there is a cause for the ashes to be ashes. Ashes exist. That which is not ashes is what creates ashes. Because firewood is not ashes. Ashes is ash. Firewood is firewood. They're not the same thing. just like a cow, a steer is a steer, and after it's slaughtered and put on the dish, it's meat.

[39:32]

We can say, oh, this is a good steer. We don't say that. We say, this is a good steak, if that's what you like. But it's like Nishiyari Bokksa, when he's talking about that particular passage, he says, if you asked tofu, if you said to tofu, tofu, you know that you were once beans, soybeans? Tofu, are you kidding? What are soybeans? So soybeans, tofu is not soybeans. Tofu is tofu. Although there's some connection between tofu and soybeans. It's time for a break. I know that, thank you. Do you call me Linda?

[40:33]

Conventionally, yes. Don't hedge it. You call me Linda. He called you Linda last time. I will call you Linda. No, actually, that's the point is whether you can say, sometimes you call me Linda, and then it's before the break, you could maybe call me Linda, then after the break, you could maybe call me then again. Yes. So this process can continue. Yes. And even if I were halfway through being burned, well, it's not complicated. That could continue. You could call and then like 40 years later, You can say it's still within, but it's quite different. This process could continue on. Well, but the name is just different than the thing.

[41:41]

So sometimes we give a person a different name. And we say, Ferdinand, you're about to be a state. The thing is, that's right, it's continuing every moment. So, every moment you are appearing new. That's right. And so, continuing to call you Linda is a convention. It's an imputed convention. In other words, I'm imputing you. I'm believing, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm creating, actually I'm creating a Linda over and over again. I'm creating a Linda over and over again, even though Linda is not exactly the same. Linda.

[42:43]

And similarly, that figure on the cushion in front of us, we treat as Mel, or Sujin, or the teacher. We do that over a long period of time, and so we might do so even beyond Well, you have to figure out, it's like, are there people on Mars? So how does this person exist disembodied? If there's no body, how does this person exist? One minute. I want to just read you one more of these emptinesses.

[43:56]

He says, the great elements are empty. The six great elements, earth, water, fire, air, and space, these are the basic ancient definition of elements, basic elements, which are used to think about how things are, the materials that things are constructed from. So, earth, water, fire, air, and space, and consciousness are maha shunyata, means great emptiness. Usually, we talk about the four great elements. But in this emptiness, there are six. All the universe is moving and acting. Maybe I'm reading the wrong one. No, this is right.

[44:59]

OK. All the universe is moving and acting. All samskaras, the aggregates or skandhas of the creative elements of your own alaya consciousness are manifesting their own elemental existence with nobody in it. When you truly understand this emptiness, you will see how all these elements come out and create the universe. No one is the master. No one is the god. They are their own action. Buddhism is different from Christianity. There is no God in Buddhism who makes things on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and on Sunday takes a rest. Who is God? If he is God, is he before Monday God? No one made God in Buddhism. Therefore, God is empty. Yet, you can see the activity of the universe. When you pass the koan of the banner and the wind, when you understand this koan, you will understand non-ego. in all the creation of the world, and you will actually see Maha Prajnaparamita.

[46:10]

Then he says, reality is empty. Paramartha shunyata. Paramartha is the highest spiritual knowledge. When you attain nirvana, you attain it. The Hinayanists think nirvana is annihilation, that all is empty. You, however, must annihilate the idea of emptiness. All is empty, but emptiness is your conception, which is something. That's why we don't like to define emptiness. Therefore, destroy this conception. When you see reality, then you will see reality. So if you stick to emptiness, the so-called Hinayana attitude. Hinayana is not some special school of Buddhism. It simply means any Buddhist who thinks in dualistic terms, or is attached to emptiness or form. I just want to kind of relate that back to the firewood ash.

[47:17]

Oh yeah. But it seems like what you're saying about T'voku just being T'voku and T'weibi That's right. Yes. Emptiness is form. Form is emptiness. If you just get stuck in one side, then you fall into duality. That's where all of a sudden, instead of dealing with simple physical manifestations of form, you're dealing with these five states that are coming together, which is geometrically, astronomically more complex.

[49:11]

It's true, but if you get stuck in karma, you have a problem. We get stuck in our past. So the thing about Buddhist practice is the one thing that distinguishes Buddhist practice is that it's possible to change karma. Not change karma, but be free of karma. And this is very important. And if we understand how to practice, we can actually free ourselves from the effects of karma. You know, when we have ordination, we say, you are now free from all your karma, even though it's not so. But at that moment, you are. It's just that you fall back into it.

[50:13]

But at that moment, you are. It's possible to, at that moment, to stop creating karma. But, you know, since one is not an adept, one continues to create the karma. But isn't that so, if you come into the present? I mean, when one is present in the moment, the mind is not active, which is what I think is the difficult problem. Well, it's not just a matter of being present. It's a matter of what you're doing with being present. So it's really a matter of what you're doing, because what you're doing is what creates karma is your action.

[51:20]

That's all. Karma is your volitional action, and then the result of that is called the fruit of karma. I guess what I was meaning was that when someone is present, there is no doer. When one is present, you mean like present without self? Without self. There is no doer, therefore there is no karma. At that moment there is no past, there is really no future. There is a past and a future, but it doesn't have the effect of... Well, it's complicated. It's complicated. because we're always working out the effects of karma. It's just that if we stop creating, then we're not creating something new, right?

[52:22]

But we still have to live out the effects of our karma. The murderer still has to live out his sentence, even though he's no longer murdering people. You can reform and so forth, but you still have to deal with who you are. Yes, I know, but it's not human action. It's not a... It's not... Ask a tree. Hey, ask a tree. Ask the tree. Who knows? Maybe so. We don't think so. But, you know, I don't say that... I mean, if the carrots scream, you know... The carrot screams, yeah, but the carrot's not creating something.

[53:33]

Carrot's rooted in the ground. is not wandering around, you know, thinking about things. Just because the carrots... Okay. Wait a minute. We're getting way off of track here. We're getting into carrots creating karma. That's way off track. For people who aren't intellectually inclined, devout Buddhists, how are they satisfied? It's much easier. You don't have to fiddle with the mind. You don't have to worry about the mind so much. Where does faith come in in Buddhism? Well, faith is enlightenment. Without faith, there's no enlightenment.

[54:34]

Sorry. But it's true. A wonderful discussion of faith in the handout you gave us for this class. The fourth or fifth section talks about faith and satori being one and the same. It's a really nice discussion. So it says the Hinayanas thinks nirvana is annihilation, that all is empty. So if you just think all is empty, that may be so, but it's only one side. Everything is also what it is. So you, however, must annihilate the idea of emptiness. All is empty, but emptiness is your conception, which is something. You create an emptiness which you think of as a thing.

[55:44]

Therefore, destroy this conception and then you will see reality. So what is reality? Outside of this phenomenal world, there is no reality. So reality must be in this phenomenal world. There is no reality outside of my incense bowl. Some people don't like that, In this reality, I'm holding the incense bowl, but nothing looks like reality. If you are a Zen student, you must prove this. Is reality empty? You're asking me a question. All phenomena are reality. It is the so-called highest knowledge when you understand that all phenomena are reality. In the Heart Sutra, there's a famous line. Rupa is shunyata. Shunyata is rupa. Rupa is emptiness. Emptiness is rupa. This is the keynote of Buddhism. Max Muller, when he read this sutra, was much disappointed. Max Muller was one of the early scholars of Buddhism. All these people think this sutra is wonderful, but how stupid.

[56:48]

The great Max Muller. I wish I had been a contemporary of him. Perhaps I could have said something to him. Anyway. So, in the text it said that there's no God and... He said that. Yeah, yeah. And that the great elements just interact with each other and things are happening and nobody is making it happen. There's no master. And then in the discussion that followed that, something came up which is perplexing. I can imagine just the great elements doing what they do, then somebody raised the matter of volition. That's really mysterious.

[57:49]

Is that different from the elements screaming and mingling and doing whatever they do, you know, or tofu coming from the elements? Is it different from that? It's a form of human action. You see, it's not right to say that we are not making this happen. We are self-creating. Who? Who? Yes. See, there are two levels. You have to understand things. two levels of reality. One is the level of reality in which all phenomena is empty, and the other reality is everything is here, present. And that which is present and is interacting and has volition and does all these things is empty. But it's not like you take all the things away and there's emptiness.

[58:56]

So we have to deal with all the stuff that's happening, the phenomenal reality of things, which is all empty. But if you think of it as emptiness, as an entity, then you have to let go of that idea. You have to let go of all ideas, actually. You just have to let go of everything. because you just keep, well, the intellect keeps making these distinctions and then philosophizing and, you know. The whole purpose of studying this is to help us to let go. I think I was going to ask you if you would speak about number four where he says emptiness is emptiness. Okay. Emptiness is empty.

[60:00]

Emptiness is empty. Shunyata, shunyata. When I was young and I was concentrating on all forms of meditation, one summer I was in the habit of falling into unconsciousness. Not sleep, but something like sleep. Unconscious of conscious mind. It was a hot summer and I almost passed away and I had the fear that sometime I would not come back. So when you have emptied the outside and the inside and find emptiness, you must empty this conception as well. With emptiness, annihilate emptiness. If you truly understand this, you do not need to take Sanzen anymore. Sanzen is like In one sense, it means seeing the teacher, and in the other sense, it means zazen. Dogen uses sanzen to mean zazen. In Rinzai-sen, it usually means having an interview with the master, but probably what it means here.

[61:08]

One day in Oregon, I went out with my dog on a mountain, and the dog was watching me. I heard the sound of a train, opened my eyes and saw a body. I said, according to Buddhism, one must one day realize that this body is just a conception. I found my body sitting on a rock with a dog squatting alongside of it. Then I heard the whistle of the train and realized that I am empty with all this universe. This is the first step in Mahayana Buddhism. We do not need to brush all phenomena aside. Of course, if you are a wise one, when you pass a koan, you should realize it. Some of you pass koans just like a donkey passes a fence. But someday you will realize it. Man's conception of emptiness is Zen. but you must destroy that Zen, too. Then you will find yourself with all the universe, that is shunyata.

[62:12]

So it's interesting, like he was suddenly standing outside of himself, looking at himself, right? I've had people tell me about experiences like that. I had one when I was doing a practice period one time at Tosahara, I had a woman tell me that she had that experience of floating above and looking down on herself and the situation. So, people have this kind of out-of-the-body experience, sort of. I don't know what to think about it. So, as I read this, the concept of emptiness is still a concept. That's right. So, everything is imputed. Imputed is a word that Tibetans use. Imputed means we decide what something is. We give it a meaning. We give things meanings, right? So this is, what is this? Well, it was a tree, or it's a post, but it isn't.

[63:19]

I'm just saying that. I'm imputing a post. I'm imputing a log. I'm imputing, you know, what it is. So, it's not what it is, but at the same time, it's an imputed reality. So, we give everything an imputed reality, and we live our lives through this imputed reality. But to see things as it is, is different. So that means loss of mind and everything? Yes, that's right. Although provisionally I can say this is a pillar, I know that it's not just a pillar. I know that I'm imputing that, then it's okay. So we can communicate. Yes, so we communicate with the pillar. There's this koan, the Buddha communicates with the pillar. The Buddha communicates with the pillow.

[64:22]

But we impute that meaning to everything. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when we speak to each other, Like, what do we see? There's only a small area of communication which takes place in so many of our interactions. Thich Nhat Hanh, interestingly enough, talks about when you're driving in a car with your wife or your best friend or something, and the limit of your understanding of each other or your communication with it is so limited, you know, when it could be so broad. And you don't even know who this person is, except through a kind of narrow vision of what you impute as to who this person is.

[65:34]

But to actually know who this person is, to experience that, is something else. It's worth thinking about that, how much we really experience as somebody, and how much we can experience as somebody. But we have to limit ourselves, otherwise we can't really move around. The busier our lives become, the more narrow our interactions, and quick, and so forth, and superficial, our interactions become. And in some way it's convenient because we don't have to spend a lot of time with somebody. But it's like we miss so much, you know, and we get to the point where somebody can just go and kill thousands of people without even feeling anything.

[66:37]

So, you know, what is Dick Cheney's imputation of humanity, you know? What is our imputation of who Dick Cheney is? Well, he reels himself pretty much. At undisclosed locations. But it's true, we have our amputation. That's right, definitely. Interesting, number eight is just at random.

[67:51]

Purposelessness is empty. I translate asamskrita as purposelessness. This part is stiff for beginners, but it is real Buddhism and very important. Asamskrita is always negative. Literally, it would be not prepared or not established for any purpose, for doing anything. Nagarjuna's commentary on this is that one attains reality and liberates himself from being born, existing, and perishing. Nagarjuna's commentary on this is that one attains reality and liberates oneself from being born, existing, and perishing. Anyone who attains reality comprehends this emancipation and is liberated from life and death. I would say birth and death, that is being born, existing and perishing, the three phases of phenomenal existence, the law of all phenomena in this universe.

[68:55]

But one who attains reality liberates oneself from this. When one attains reality, one experiences freedom from the three phases of phenomenal existence and proves nirvana by that experience. So asamskrita is empty. I like Nagarjuna very much. He says his theory is so crispy, like eating Japanese rice cakes. So in the dharma, which is the law of reality, there is no graspable appearance of purposeless and purposelessness is empty. One talks of reality, but in reality one cannot grasp purposelessness. This is terribly high-blown Buddhism. It's almost impossible to explain that unless you take Sanzen. In Sanzen, reality is the first thing. Those who take zanzan will understand this reality. Reality is boundless, timeless, and immeasurable. No shape to grasp, no color to perceive, but it exists from the beginning to the end of the universe.

[70:02]

One who attains reality, that is really your intrinsic nature, liberates oneself from the three phases of external law. In short, if you attain Dharmakaya, you are not bothered by the law of Nirmanakaya. You don't understand that? Dharmakaya is the essence body. Nirmanakaya is the manifest body. In short, if you attain Dharmakaya, your essence body, you are not bothered by the law of causation, which is Nirmanakaya. In Nirmanakaya, Mr. Smith takes wine. Mr. Jones doesn't. In Dharmakaya law, Mr. Smith takes wine and Mr. Jones gets drunk. Dogen uses that phrase. Queer, isn't it? When you send a telegram, the telegram must go through the wire from America to Japan.

[71:05]

But if you broadcast by radio, it will spread in waves in all directions. In reality, in this moment, There are one million years, and one million years doesn't exist. In reality, you are eating, drinking, and breathing, yet you have not been born. You do not exist. Philosophically, that is. Of course, in that reality, you can free yourself from being born, existing, and perishing. And in the freeing, you understand what nirvana is. Not only understand, but realize it. Dharmakaya is purposelessness, but you cannot grasp it. If there is a bit of purposelessness in it, it is not dharmakaya. It is only a notion of dharmakaya. I was in purposelessness for six years, and one day I said, this is just a notion. And I got out of it. True purposelessness is empty. Oh, the 16th, the 18th.

[72:17]

Oh, I just said this. It's OK on Sasaki. Yeah. I would like to say something about him. Yeah. He, he, he learned Koans really well. He was really great. And But what he didn't have was Zazen. And that passage, when I read that passage, it really, it just gave me a real feeling for Zazen. Because he finally did, he had to go to Japan to do that, or back to Japan from the United States. And that is how he finally was able to get from a transmission. So, because he's a Rinzai priest.

[73:19]

A what? Rinzai priest. I was very taken by how Zazen informs his practice finally. Yes. Yes. That's right. So this is the hardest thing to understand intellectually. That's why we do Zazen. It's hard to understand intellectually. But we need to study it anyway. We need to study it because it helps us to realize what we're doing.

[74:26]

It helps us in letting go. You know, I used the tiger's cave as the text for our study, but I haven't talked about it yet. But I hope you've been reading it and studying it, because in the class I have to talk about various ways of looking at this sutra, so I can't I can talk about our daily life in some way, but I'm approaching it from various angles. So I would like to know how you have been, how it's been affecting you and how you see this interacting with your daily life.

[75:39]

if it brings up stuff for you? Do you see how it affects your day, how the Heart Sutra, and given the example from the Talyos Cave, how you see your own practice in that light? I'm not sure everybody can hear you.

[76:58]

One part that really I was able to understand for the first time in a different way than before was the six realms of existence. where he says, you know, that you have the aluhas or whatever, the devas or whatever, and the gods, and they are living, they're kind of stuck in the good life. And then the others, the hungry ghosts and the animals and the demons, I guess, and they're all caught in their world of impulse. And then there is the human. And it really resonated because I've been caught so much in impulse, you know. And somehow, something really snapped for me and I realized, oh my God, One thing that has always had a great impact on me is how the sutras and the Buddhist teachings really relate to my life.

[78:11]

It's like the Heart Sutra is talking about me at this moment. And so when I was reading this, all of a sudden I realized this thing that I've been so impulsive about, this is what they're talking about. You know, it's not really about animals or whatever, but it's really here. Yeah, you can identify with the six worlds. They're all parts of you. Yes, and at the same time, appreciate the fact that as human, I have the opportunity to be conscious and to, you know, to at least observe the impulsivity and not be caught by it. Well, you know, as the wheel turns, It's either the rack or freedom, right? So if you get caught as the wheel turns, then you suffer. But if you know how to go with the wheel as it turns and find your freedom within the turning, that's what actually he's talking about, truly what he's talking about.

[79:21]

that the wheel turns, the hub of the wheel is greed, ill will, and delusion.

[79:30]

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