a very good point to describe how, is there a monastic aesthetic as well as a monastic culture? I think it goes with the territory. Again, we're speaking as Catholics. The beautiful is always there with the truth. It leads us to the truth. And here too, the European experience helped. I think there was a cultural affinity they had. The places I mentioned, they both had some time in Rome too, and I think you go through some of their musings on their experience of what constitutes art. It's more the question of what constitutes true beauty, and how does that just become part of the entire fabric of our daily life? And of course, Opposed to that is the ugly. And, truth be told, if you look at some of the institutional models here in Manhattan, according to Gethsemane especially, it was brutal.

[01:07]

If you knew the old Gethsemane. And now I think there's, you know, Merton was a great fan of the Shakers as well. And he wanted to insist upon, call it the noble simplicity, that the Trappists could draw from, and I think they have since then. But your allusion to what, for the Damasus knew, both of these people just had this encyclopedic understanding of so much. I mean, to have been next to them was, I mean, next to a genius. And the amazing thing is they could find outlets for it. And I think that was the real grace Gethsemane gave to Merton, and Mount Savior gave to Father Damasus. They knew they needed these outlets. Got a couple other questions, yes. I had a question. Later on in Merton's life, did you have to go on a study, you might say, in Bethlehem, that used to continue to move him?

[02:17]

And I also wondered if you could give a deeper perspective or a different perspective on the history of the Christian teaching of Buddhism. And it's always puzzled me why you couldn't have followed his satisfaction or his answer to the teaching of Christianity and then to Buddhism. The criticism leveled against Burton for his – I'll use his critics' words, his dabbling in these eastern religious movements. was steady and pronounced even after his death. And of course, the irony of his dying in Thailand, you know, in the midst of a non-Catholic, some would call it, culture.

[03:22]

I've really tried to process that myself in going over the journals and the letters of Burton, and I've talked to a number of people. I was with monastic interreligious dialogue for a number of years, and that question came up. And I think I could say with some assurance Merton was certainly not a new age person. He was solidly rooted in Catholicism. He read the sources, whether they were Zen Buddhism and his correspondence with D.T. Suzuki, whether it was some really very esoteric readings in Eastern culture. He read them with a sense of wanting to know what they were about. And he always measured it against his own understanding of the truth, which was solidly rooted in Christ.

[04:30]

And I think in some ways it solidified that. You know, the Asian Journal helped show that he was in need of the experience of Asia. And I think that that did really have him create an even more empathetic understanding of what they were about. I mean, his talk with the Dalai Lama and all was really, we would have loved to have been there. I think it was a natural result of Burton's incredibly, you know, his intellectual curiosity knew no bounds, and he wanted to go there, and it was new. He was known for biting off more than he could chew quite a bit, and I think he could go reading Sufis one day and then back to Buddhist monasticism and then be reading medieval Catholic mystics, and he didn't seem to skip a beat, but that's a lot to absorb for anyone.

[05:33]

So I think he probably could have been more balanced, and towards the end of his life, especially, more order than what he was reading. But again, the amazing thing is he was doing this even before the ecumenical movement came into being. And even before we realized, this is pointed out to me by a monk of Gethsemane, how he died in a place where he had been arguing the Americans never should have been in Southeast Asia because they couldn't understand it. He was there to try and understand it more. And of course, the famous story, his body came back with the bodies of American soldiers in Vietnam from Thailand. Yeah. There was, up here. Well, I think I might at least inquire if there's research studies, if they, yeah.

[06:40]

My question, or what I'd like to ask you to speak a little more about, because you did, having been at Mount St. Luke for many years, I'm aware of the, I don't know if it's vision of the monasteries of resource, and you mentioned all the lakes and conferences, things that we've had here, but to me, I think hospitality, It's a very good point, and I apologize for not emphasizing what was clearly a hallmark of Mount Savior for the Damascus, hospitality. Of course, today, anything on the monastic heritage is going to reinforce hospitality. You know, for the Damascus, first of all, it is.

[07:42]

Hospitality is associated with the richness of the monastery. People want to go there because of what they see. And it's the hospitality that is the antithesis of the Marriott and the Hyatt. It's not that antiseptic type of chocolate on the bed cover and all the amenities. It's this sense of being received in a sacramental way and being enriched for both parties. And I would say what, What the Damascus did here, which was quite different, was truly communicate the sense that all are invited. And I was thinking, actually, not too long ago, we all have this connection now with Pope Francis. We know how Pope Francis is reaching, I mean, they would have been in the same wavelength.

[08:43]

Pope Francis and Pope Damascus, bring them in. Don't shut the doors, you know, put the bridges there, not walls. And I think that is very monastic. We always have the tension that's there with hospitality. Well, Adamus was aware of it. The monks here are aware of it. You are too. And that can be a healthy tension. You have to respect the space of the enclosure and the peace, but both sides are enriched. That's the key. And a monastery without that tension, very stimulating presence of guest can easily atrophy spiritually. And I think there is something about the monastic universe you discover when you come into the monastic space that you know is and remains a sign of contradiction to the world, which is important. But that was certainly part of the monastic vision.

[09:45]

And thank you for mentioning that. Yes. I remember also being very put off by his going into this Buddhism, and what about Christ and what about Catholicism? Of course, the irony is that Catholicism is universal. And I think that deserves at least a accompanying reminder that the ecumenical dimension of Burton and Winston is easy to criticize, but we can't discount it.

[11:09]

And I've worked with some retreat groups and especially some Protestant groups in our area. And years ago, talking about resources that were used. It was amazing. These were all Christian, non-Catholic people who said that, by far, the people who were read the most by their Protestant retreatants were Merton and Nowen. It was just something that they received that was the truth, and spiritually it was healthy. And I think that says a lot. Yes, Neil? Probably there are people here who would be able to do that much better than I. It goes back to Maria Locke and the liturgical movement, and it's, which part of it do you want?

[12:22]

You know, there certainly was, the Greek word agape is this selfless, entirely self-donative love. And if I were to try and epitomize that theological notion, again, look at Pope Francis, there's agape in spades, and it's coming out of a rich Catholic tradition of Eucharist, of living an intense spiritual life that is suffused with discipline and prayer and suffering. I mean, this is my take. I mean, there would probably be a better theological explanation, but I would say in the life of Winston and Merton, and I hinted at this, There were enough setbacks.

[13:26]

There were enough, I mean, they got beat up quite a bit by a lot of important people. I think, not just their resilience, but their ability to somehow see this was part of the Paschal Mystery, and this was how they came to know Christ better. This is true agape love. For most of us, you can take the loss, or the grief, or the suffering, if we truly identify on the same level they did, we see the truth in that. We just let go of the ego. And in terms of Damasus Winston, it was very connected to this full confidence that the Holy Spirit was still with us, providing whatever was needed for our faults. I mean, that was, if you know anything about Maria Locke, the Geisttheologie, the Spirit was there and it would continue to just permeate all of the fallen part of our nature.

[14:42]

For Merton, The equivalent was, if you know Merton, there was the false self and the true self. And the true self was always identified more with the person who had been, and this is very much a privatized tradition, gone through the purgative stages, entered into this very contemplative dimension of life. And, you know, Merton was always wanting to get there. he knew that was where he should be going. And he could detect very well fakery from people who thought they were doing it. And I think that, again, I'll go back to both of them here. They were very good at seeing all the, the decoys, the very false claimants for this type of thing.

[15:46]

And I think we were served well by them because it would have been easy to go, okay, well, let's take a little bit of this, take a little bit of that, satisfy the people who want it, and then we'll have, it looks nice, and we're praying. No, they could not accept that. They knew there was something deeper and better. And I'd say that's where this agape ideal comes in. Yes? I guess I would maybe introduce myself as a disciple of analysis for obvious reasons. I would say one phrase that sticks out most in my mind is, God loves us first. And for me, coming at 19, I, today, look at, when I read, actually, my reading of Orr's book, How to Have a System, and how to make a mountain a savior.

[16:53]

A very important thing, number one, that a mountain savior, if you can claim to be, Who would take someone at age 19? Well some people probably wouldn't say this, but the vision of someone so young. which looked at the possibility of things. It was very, very, the character of life is a very precious thing to him. And one of the, when he got to the, this popular, but certainly didn't popular, charismatic movement, he said to me once, it surprised me,

[18:08]

that he saw the charismatic movement having a place, a real place in Christian life, Catholic life. And so I just wanted to say that Martin gave me the seed in the nation of life, in his seeds of contemplation. And the other folks have them as a seminarian. But then, now I'm here, I'm being told I can come back. wonderful testimony, and those of you in the room, go back to 1961, 62, how many Catholics would hear that as a prominent theological statement, God loved us first? And it wasn't the one line,

[19:19]

have a nice day, God loves us, or what came after Vatican. It was based upon this, again, incredible absorption he had made of all the best thought in monasticism, Catholic life. This was someone who could say this and know what it meant because he knew the quality of the people who had lived it, and he believed it. And that's what made the difference. And that was part of the, We talk about the charismatic quality for the Damascus. He was not, you know, some type of, you know, individual setting the stage for what would be a presentation on, here is monastic life in the ideal. Did he have some idealism, romanticism? Yes, but it was always connected to the real thing. There was no false front about that.

[20:24]

You got the real thing. How are we doing on time here? Okay. Well, you know, when you teach adolescents five days a week, you do stay grounded in reality. I mean, I wouldn't still be doing it after 40 years if I didn't find some satisfaction. And they're good students. They work hard. I also daily am reminded of the stresses they face and the cultural context, which is frightening. That's the way it is, that they are growing up in a culture that is so deeply engaged in keeping them away from any solid religious identity.

[21:27]

And we have some parents who are model Catholics, we have some who are not as much, but so many of the aspects of their life are just tearing them away from it. It's clear, I mean, this is a high school, and already some of them, the cynicism that shows, and of course we can go through all the regular suspects, the social media, et cetera, et cetera, is more and more pronounced. Their goodness you see, their intelligence you see, But in terms of how it's being formed and shaped, it's an entirely different thing. And the other thing that goes with that, if we speak of what's the difference, we can even include the millennials in this. I just find that increasingly, anything associated with permanence, with, you know,

[22:30]

A decisive decision for that requires ongoing commitment is very, very frightening for them. Everything short term and you look at all the means and instruments, the culture they deal in, sure, everything's short-term. Yeah, so pray for them. I mean, I do, I pray for them rigorously, and one of the things I have them do, I teach Advanced Placement U.S. History, and I teach theology honors courses. The theology people always keep journals, and it's a discipline, you know, Maybe I got that from Burton. I don't know. I've kept one. And it reminds me of just all that they go through. And they go through a lot. You've been very patient and I'm hoping that some of you will be persuaded to do a little bit more thinking on this, but I thank you for privilege of being here and keep up the spirit of Mount Savior and know you're in a blessed place.

[23:45]

Realize that and spread the word. So thank you.

[23:51]

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