You know, the kind of story I talked about yesterday, doesn't have exactly what we could call a meaning. If we want to ascribe to it some identification, we can say it has a use, and its use is in teaching Zen. But its use won't be clear to you either, unless you use it. Sometimes you can come across a Zen story, and maybe it's clear to you immediately, and

[01:11]

you haven't used it, but actually, usually it means you have, in some way, practiced with that kind of situation. That's why you understand the story. So, its meaning, then, is its use, and its use depends on your using it, how the patriarchs tried to teach Buddhism, one to another. But, the real meaning of these stories, can't actually be known, till you give up your life

[02:17]

The stories are easier to know than your life, and we think we know our life, and that's why it's so difficult to give it up. I wish I could convince you, somehow, to practice so that you'd give up your life. Maybe, if I could practice better myself, I could convince you. But also, I have some, I can't really see why you'd want to, you know, it's pretty difficult

[03:31]

for me to see any way to convince you. Life is, it's not that life is so attractive, but it's all we know, there's no way to make sense of giving up our life. And I don't mean to, you know, some people talk about death, or suicide, or ending the difficulty they're in, lack of any meaning for them, but this is some, not what I mean

[04:32]

by death, actually that's just an interruption of your superficial life, of the movie on the screen. And according to Buddhism, theory of reincarnation anyway, interrupting that life is only to continue it with more force, again, anyway, meaning is we can't get free, except in this life. And each of you will have this experience.

[05:48]

And even if we can't do it here, in our zazen, you know, we're quite connected, all of us, my practice and your practice are so closely connected, and we can practice, I can only practice, actually, if you practice. So to practice, we must have some great practice together, but even if we don't, can't have this, giving up our life, in our practice, in our life, you will have it when you die. You'll have that, this great opportunity when you die.

[07:01]

Somehow, life has given us an unavoidable great opportunity, and each of us will actually die, and you'll feel your consciousness going out of your body. Often it starts in your feet, and you can feel your feet getting cold, and then your calves and legs and thighs. And if at this moment you cling to your life, it will be terrible for you. But if you can let it go, you know, like an interesting movie slipping off the screen,

[08:19]

you can know what Suzuki Roshi used to call your big screen, or even your no-screen. But you don't actually have to wait until you die, you can have this opportunity in your practice, letting go of the movie on your screen, letting go of the images, not so involved in the plot. We get completely involved in the movie, you know.

[09:29]

Maybe Zazen is a little bit like the short subjects, you know, sort of on world travel, or visiting India, or something like that. Maybe this one's visiting Japan. Usually the short subjects are not so interesting, so you can realize you're sitting in the movie seat, and you can not be caught by it so much. But then when the movie comes on, you're caught immediately, and if not the movie, when the news comes on, you're caught. Oh, you think this is real, the Vietnam War, or some automobile accident. It may be real, actually, but it's already over.

[10:46]

By the time you see the movie, it's already over. It's too late to participate in it, it's dead. Maybe you want to participate in the movie completely, you don't want to be detached from the movie. If so, to participate in the movie completely of your life, it also means to participate in the screen. You can't eliminate the screen. And for the screen, you know, the movie is quite effortless. All the struggle is in the plot and in the images. But for the screen itself, it's quite effortless.

[11:50]

Like Suzuki Roshi's story about the water falling off the falls at Yosemite, and the drop separating and just falling, it's quite effortless, that separation. It's not climbing up the mountain, which is such a struggle, but just individual drops being separate for a while and falling effortlessly. And although we get caught in the plot of the movie, what do you suppose the plot of the movie is to the screen? The screen just stays still in one, four, five, hundreds of movies, one after another. It never moves and the events keep happening. If you know the screen, your experience actually of the plot is quite different.

[12:52]

You begin to see interconnections that aren't there when you just see it in some linear way. When somebody stands before you, you know, what do you see? Actually, what you call the present, what we call the present, usually is already past. It's already over. By the time you've seen it, it's over. By the time your sixth senses have apprehended the situation, it's over. It's like arriving, as I said yesterday, in an accident. I mean, it's useful to see when things are over, you know. Like our movie, or like a car accident or something, you can go and help.

[13:54]

And then Center helped with the building when it burned. But how can you participate with other people when what you see is already past? When you've given up your life, you know. It means to live in the real present. The present where things are just forming. Where it's still just maybe some kind of light. Where it's quite fluid.

[15:00]

Where anything is possible. The Lankavatara Sutra says, consciousness arises ... instantaneously or by degrees in every sense organ, even in its atoms and pores of the skin. ... And the sense field apprehends like

[16:10]

a mirror reflecting objects or the ocean stirred by the wind. ... And the mind ocean, and likewise, I guess it says, O Mahatmy, and likewise, the mind ocean is stirred by the wind of objectivity, cause, deed and effect, endlessly conditioning each other. ... How can you start each moment like a blank screen or no screen so that you see the wind that arises,

[17:14]

that stirs everything, that creates everyone? ... Certainly not if you're caught in some idea of an identity. ... ... ... I don't like to give such serious lectures, excuse me.

[18:23]

... Because I'm quite ... satisfied with you, actually. It sounds like I'm saying you should do something. Of course I'm saying that. ... Because I feel that's what you want, and what I want. ... ...

[19:49]

Yes sir? Do you have any questions? Something you could talk about? Yeah. Roshi, would you say that role-playing is a way of not being caught by some identity? Okay. Could you hear what he said? Or we could say the same thing by saying roles are the usefulness of identity. Do you understand what I mean? That was quite clear. Roles are the usefulness of identity. ...

[21:05]

What I mean is, everything exists. If we have the ability to form an identity, it must exist for some reason. When we try to turn it into concrete, or think of it as real, we have trouble. But when you think of it as useful, for this situation, or as someone said recently, for this realm, or that realm, ... Actually, you can't be caught in some identity. Identity, no matter how wide, is too small for you. So the reason you have trouble is you're always overflowing your identity.

[22:09]

So you need lots of little catch basins called this role and that role. A way, a kind of way, a kind of loving way even, of being there for other people. If you're there without any role or identity, no one can make use of you. So to make yourself useful, now I'm a husband. Now I'm a teacher. Now I'm working in the kitchen. Now I'm a taxi driver. Yes? I think over it deeply when you say, I'm satisfied with my identity. But I do believe in it when you say, Give up your identity.

[23:13]

I feel very different. Well, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe. I understand. From your point of view, that's true. See, from my point of view, I have to make a big effort to say something to you like, Give up your life. Because actually, I don't want to disturb you. It's quite... I'm like an old lady, actually. And I try to hide it, but I'm always plucking over my... What happened during the... Oh, that was really nice. That happened, and then this happened, and oh, the flowers came out today. Look, so-and-so is walking about Tassajara,

[24:20]

and they're not sick. I feel that all the time. I feel so embarrassed. I have to control myself. I never look at the future, but I'm always looking at the past, saying, Oh, isn't that nice? So I don't want to disturb things, because they're quite nice as they are. But I actually know that that's not so good. That's some bad habit of mine. So I have to stir myself up. Say, Come on. Actually, I'm a little selfish, too, because if you're stirred up, it helps me. I don't know what to do with my life, and I'm disturbed. But we get the feeling that we're not doing so good enough. But I believe you. Oh, see? You believe me, but you don't understand me.

[25:24]

What did you say? You said two things which to me seem very different, but maybe you're saying that they're not so different. So could you explain, in terms of the way we perceive what we're doing, what it means to give up our life, as we're doing about our life now? He's quite right about what I mean. I don't want you to get caught by some movie called Giving Up Your Life. Or being satisfied with what you are. I always fall back on saying you should be able to do two things at once that seem opposite. Or, as Suzuki Roshi always said,

[26:28]

two and yet one, one and yet two. But actually, what I mean, I can't say. I mean, I can't quite say it. We can't, as the story said yesterday, if we want to say something that's true, that's not already past, even though we think it's present. If we want to say something that's still that wind. We can't say absolute, this is such. Or we can't say relative. What's alive is neither relative nor absolute. So it has to be rather vague and obscure and difficult to practice. I'm sorry, I'm not making it that way,

[27:29]

it's just the way it is. Or at least that's the only way I know what to do. Eric? The past few days... The past few days? The questions from people? What it means to cut off... It's an ancient question. It's amazing.

[28:29]

Now you see it, now you don't. That's the way it is, that's why we can't... There should be some gap for your question to come back again. And you should settle on it, you know. Not separate it from your question by anything. Not a hair's breadth, it says in the sutra. Most of the time, it's pretty easy for me to see what kind of role I can use. I mean there are some times when I'm just sort of going here and there, back and forth.

[29:46]

I'm not thinking about it, I'm knowing what I'm doing. And it seems to me maybe I'm in some role but I don't know what it is. And is that like... You see, we're talking yesterday about mudra where everything you do is mudra. Or maybe you're just unconscious of it. Or is there some time when we're just not in a role? No, there's no time when we're not in a role. You don't have to limit your roles to those you can label. Now I'm cook, now I'm... Your roles are flashing each moment. When you see how completely everything changes, then the idea of an identity is meaningless. But what's there?

[30:51]

Yeah. Yes. What do you do when you're dissatisfied with your practice? Me? Me? Now or used to? Now. It's more difficult to answer. So I don't... It just keeps falling away. I used to mind. It's just the same as being dissatisfied with my practice, I guess. But I don't... I don't expect anything. So I've found that if I had that feeling of being satisfied,

[31:54]

I immediately start sliding back down the hill. Right? So I don't feel satisfied either. I just keep trying to enjoy myself. Anyway. Yes? Cutting out the thoughts. Cutting out the thoughts. If I try to cut out the thoughts, what exactly? Like, if I use a particular type of thought, a particular group of thoughts, like I've seen mostly about three different things, and use them as... When I think of them, I know I'm thinking in front of them, because I know I'm thinking. So if I think of them to exaggerate and make them up,

[32:55]

and I try to cut them out, and then I dream about them. I can't... I'm wondering if the method that I'm using is somehow like... I have the idea, to me, that suppression is dangerous. And I wonder if you could say something about it. Could you hear her? Sounds like you're saying that there's three particular thoughts that stand for all thinking for you. Or something like that. Is that right? You're using them that way. For some reason they do stand for all thinking, and you're trying to see if you can eliminate those three.

[33:56]

For some reason. What about the thought about why you picked those three? Why did you pick those three? You can try that way, you know. But actually you can't... You can't take a piece of cloth and trim little pieces out of it, these three pieces. It doesn't work, you know. As you say, the fabric will mend itself at night. And as I've talked a number of times about suppression and repression, of course we don't want to suppress or repress.

[34:59]

Because really, I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that our fundamental practice is Zazen. In the end we go back to Zazen. And every day we come to Zazen. And all the other practices you do are some experiment or some effort. But you can't depend on such practices. You can depend on Zazen. And in Zazen we just let our thinking come or go, as it does.

[36:03]

... It may be useful to to try to cut off some particular thought. But... as a kind of practice or experiment. But our fundamental practice is to see how our thinking arises. To be there for your thinking. If you concentrate on this, that or that part, you miss where those thoughts came from. Why you concentrate on those three.

[37:06]

Maybe you should cut off that. So, in the end you can't figure out which one to cut off, actually. And so, all you can do is look at the whole fabric. What happens, of course, is that the fabric may almost stay there forever, but the weave, you begin to see more and more spaces in the weaving. Until you can pass right through. Through. Yeah. ... ... Did you? ...

[38:18]

... All of us are down there at the bottom of the hole, waiting. Come on, Blanche! Come on in! ... [...] Well, when you're climbing up this hill, you stay with going up the hill, don't you? ... ...

[39:25]

... You faded up there at the end. ... [...] I think the question is more like putting your hand out again on another stone. Again and again. ... [...]

[40:30]

... [...] Do you realize how difficult a question you're asking? Yeah, he says, we use the words mind and consciousness and put your mind in your hara, is there really any difference between these words, mind, consciousness, hara, strength, can? What do you think? There is. When I start to think about it, I may walk away from the question sometimes, I may try to find it,

[41:41]

I may have a sense of love, a problem, anything that I'm actually trying to do with this thing, but it doesn't represent what you're trying to do. Something's got to do with it, right? It's just different. Put your mind in your left hand. Strength and energy. Put your mind in your left hand and then forget about it. Put your mind in your left hand and then forget about it? Forget it. Oh, forget it. No, I have no idea. I have a feeling that we need a little bit of energy and strength from the mind and the body. Thank you. Thank you very much. That's a sign of appreciation. Since we experience ourselves as divided, we have to make an effort that's divided to get started.

[43:12]

If I say to you, make a whole effort, so where do you start, you know? Okay, start by putting your mind in your left hand. We have to start. Since we experience ourselves as divided, there's no way except to talk about energy or mind or something. If you don't experience yourself as divided, you don't have to. Use such language. But the expression of ourselves is divided. This role or that role. You asked already. No? No? Okay. Why won't you let them be different?

[44:32]

If they're different, they're different from one to the other. Simultaneously. If you do one, you're doing them all. Okay? Sometimes, in some situation, you want one emphasis. Sometimes, in another situation, you want another emphasis. If you're driving the car, truck out of Tassajara, I don't want you to put your mind in your left hand. I'd prefer you chose some other way. And especially, don't forget about it. That's all. Yeah? What's... Is it possible not to give up your life? Is it possible to keep something to yourself? A little box?

[45:40]

What do you mean? What do you mean? I make pretty rigorous efforts to keep something to myself. But it's very unsatisfying. It's what I know, but it doesn't work. I feel like it's really true that what I really want is this to give up your life. But I don't know it with the same... clearance that I know the other. These seconds on scrambled eggs. Yeah. That's pretty easy to...

[46:44]

At least... Yeah, that's pretty easy to feel and taste. But I think you're... I do believe you when you say that you think what we really want is to give up our lives. How... In the meantime, you know, how do you cope with this selfishness? Scrambled... The seconds on scrambled eggs is also the dharma. Your selfishness, you know. You can't put your selfishness aside... for...

[47:45]

some later use. But I like your question. It's very... It is true that... something like seconds on scrambled eggs is much clearer. Than sort of abstractions about practice. Is...

[48:48]

Is it possible to recognize... Is it possible to recognize... what it means to give up your life? When you're doing it? Well, right now, you say... how to cope with selfishness... until you give up your life. And that's... All you can do is cope with selfishness. Cope with your scrambled eggs. And try to give up your selfishness. And I'm... As you say, we try pretty hard. It's interesting, you know. And... Even if it becomes clear to you, you know.

[49:57]

And sometimes it's clear to us. For a moment. That this whole business of working out our destiny is... you know, a waste of time on a minute stage. Just forget who you are. And throw yourself on the junk heap, you know. And give up... your life to everyone. You can know that, you know, for an instant. Even if you know it, you know. To actually do it is so sticky. And we can know even, most of us maybe don't, but we can know even that, in the end, it's the only thing that is satisfying. That allows us to live as a whole being. But...

[51:00]

we can't do it, you know. Maybe the transition is the most difficult time. Because it's... when we give up what we hoped for. When you still have some hope, you know, it's quite... our life is quite... in a way, it's quite beautiful, you know. And... it's very funny, too. All those things you once thought were important to you. They're no longer important to you. It's what the whole world turned around at one time. It's rather sad, actually. But then when that turns sour, because somehow you've seen through it, then, too, it's still, even though it's sour,

[52:05]

it sticks to us. And somehow, no amount of effort will shake it. I got... I picked up a great big... banana slug, a green gulf, and carried it to a safer place, you know. And then my... I don't know, it was the messiest one I've ever seen. And I just had this stuff all over me, right? And I went to wash. And I washed, and washed, and washed, and I used soap, and ivory soap, and I used every modern miracle detergent I could find. And literally none of it would come off. I rubbed... Finally, I found a way to get it off, which is I took Kleenex and toilet paper and things like that, and I stuck it all over it, and I peeled it off, and I just didn't... I was really... But no matter what I did, it wouldn't come off, you know. But our ego is like that, you know.

[53:06]

Some big banana slug. It's got us, you know. And we put Buddha's robe on even, you know. And that banana slug peeks out, you know. It's really difficult. So you have to learn to sort of get with that banana slug, and sort of creep along with it, you know. You know. Anyway, maybe to become a banana slug is our practice. To sit here, you know. Sit here, you should say a frog, but I think banana slug is better. If you could help me be a banana slug better, too, I'd appreciate it. Thank you very much.

[54:05]

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