Well, we have only today and two more meetings. And as I said to Otmar earlier, at this rate we'll be at Koan 10 in about four years. Everyone shifted around this time. So Frank told me that at least in his group he had a very good discussion. As we were walking down. You want to start then? Yeah, of course. Okay. Okay. Yes, it was a good group. We started again, if I remember correctly, with the difficulty.

[01:03]

We started again with the difficulties of working with Korn. And today the task and the instruction was difficult, first of all. What was difficult? The instruction we had today. From me? No, from Otmar. Oh. That means from you. That's what Harry Truman had on his desk, you know. The buck ends here. That's an American expression, to pass the buck. He did it, no, he did it, no, no. We decided not to pay attention to the instruction. That's why it was a good group. Maybe it would have been even better, wouldn't it?

[02:25]

Instead, each presented their own understanding of the koan. Was there any agreement? What I remember is an encounter between a posture that wants to understand and a posture that doesn't understand. What I remember is an encounter between a posture that wants to understand and a posture that doesn't understand. More precisely, to have the experience that you're not understanding the koan and then how to deal with that experience. And one thing was to say that there is the need to understand it and that you should pay attention to it.

[03:26]

And then the other approach was that maybe a koan is about not understanding and to become familiar with that. So, for example, that not understanding can mean to have questions without answers. So, for example, that not understanding can mean to have questions without answers. And that can mean to dare to open up to these questions and then to live with these questions.

[04:42]

And then to just see where that leads. Now my feeling is that we've gotten explanations from you. And that first of all I can't repeat them. And that I cannot maintain that I really understand the koan. I have the feeling here and there to have an intimation what it might be about. And that encourages me to see how that will go on.

[06:00]

Yeah, let me just make two comments. One is any fundamental question you can't answer. But a fundamental question can inform your life through the asking of it. I mean, how do you answer, how do I, how can I be the person I want to be? There's no answer to such a question, but the question itself can inform you. And, yeah, and, And to feel a part of the koan is what you want to do. You want to feel a relationship to it. To understand it in some sort of sense, that's really fairly unimportant.

[07:05]

And is it some stage when maybe you have to be a teacher or something? It's not important. Okay. Okay. Yes. Agata. I have to get my syllables right. Agata. Agata. She was in the same group? Yeah. For me it was also another topic. That is the reason why we are interested in Buddhism and why we are here. that it is precisely about such incomprehensibles, that it is somehow about a knowledge that there are still other spirits in man, a topic for me that came up is that the reason why we are interested in Buddhism and why we are here is the knowledge or intimation that there may be other states of mind that we are interested in.

[08:24]

And that we experience that and feel that and have moments where we know these states of mind. And that such a koan picks us up with phrases where we might think we could understand them. with the intellect, and that it is then like a method to sit with individual sentences and to be still, and that I have the feeling that this then leads to a level that we otherwise could not really touch. But then there's the method of just sitting still with these phrases and that leads us to a level that we otherwise could not reach. And that also has to do with host mind and guest mind that you talked about this morning.

[09:44]

And there is a lot to be examined because there are so many phrases for just even one koan. I tried to explain to a friend what we did at the winter branch of Sangha weekend. Any luck? It did not lead to a result. At least she wanted to see one of these koans. I didn't hand it out to her yet.

[10:57]

And it seems to be the case that most people have at least an intimation of such an always present but not always accessible present awareness. Now, did you stay in the same groups each day or are you playing poker and shifting around? One time, we shifted. You shifted, okay. Manuel? I was in the same group. Okay, it's a big group. Today we have been only four persons and today seven, I think. We also talked about the fact that the choir contains so many links that lead into an unbearable and threatening reality. We talked also about the koan containing many links that point towards a non-graspable and almost dangerous reality.

[12:31]

Threatening, not dangerous, but threatening. Challenging. And on the other hand it offers this basis with taking the seat with which you can encounter this reality. Okay, yeah. Thanks. In the other groups there wasn't a good discussion. Yes. We have tried to follow the instructions as far as we understood. Yes. We tried to follow the instruction as far as we understood it.

[13:47]

And we took the example of trying to explain to the taxi driver that gets us here, to explain to him what we are doing here. and everybody tried. In the end we came up with the conclusion that it was extremely difficult. The difficult thing was not that we were not able to explain something, But the difficulty came when we wanted to have the feeling that he would understand what we said.

[14:51]

We just became aware of the fact that it makes a huge difference whether we are talking to someone who's practicing or to someone who's not practicing. Sure it does. And that's just interesting to notice without us being really able to say what the difference is all about. And we mentioned another approach. And that is, for example, what is contained in the Koran about the parts of Buddhism. And then we looked at what kind of components of Buddhism are to be found in the koan. So wie zum Beispiel, dass es teaching gibt, dass es einen Lehrer gibt, dass es Orte gibt, wo man zusammensitzt, dass man sitzt und so weiter.

[16:10]

For example, that the Koran tells us that there is a teacher, there is teaching, there are places where we sit, that we sit together, and so on. And that this is also an explanation, but conveys a different content than the first attempt. And that's also an explanation, but it's about a different content than the first attempt we started. And the second, our second attempt, he would probably understand. So the question remains, what is Buddhism? That's all? That's all. Jerry Brown, who ran for, you know, governor and the president of the United States, was governor, etc., he used to always say, quoting some Christian text, "'Those who know don't say, and those who say don't know.'"

[17:23]

Jeff Brown was his name? Jerry Brown. Jerry Brown, the governor, who was also there for a long time, he always quoted a Christian text. The people who... What is the exact translation? I know it too. Does anyone know how it is in German? The people who say something don't know it, and the people who know it don't say it. No, that's something else. There are... But I think it's sometimes phrases like that taxi drivers understand. You know, once I did get a taxi in San Francisco. I can't remember why, because normally I don't use taxis. And I said, I want to go to Page Street and Bush. He said, the Woodpecker Building. And once I took a taxi. I don't know why, because I normally never take one.

[18:29]

I said, yes, I want to go to Page Street and to Bush Street and so on. And the taxi driver said to the... Because he'd driven by, he'd hear this clack, clack, clack. He had no idea what it was. And that's what our neighbors probably think. We don't know what they do over there, but we, you know. Yeah, it's a sign of it, right? Yes. Yes. In our group, we produced a movie for didactical reasons. Oh, really? Okay. They shot on your cell phone? No, at the moment it's just... So there's a huge hall with many people in it.

[19:33]

A dignified elderly man ascends a podium, sits down. Another just as dignified old man hits a gavel on a sounding board. That's the moment when the attention of the audience increases dramatically. The one dignified man says, this is the teaching, while the other dignified man descends the seat.

[20:51]

The audience is enthusiastic. Hearing and everything, right? Because they understood that what this is about is attention. Okay. It is about? Attention. And of course about mind. No, of course there's a second version. I don't think this is going to be a box office success. The audience becomes aware of the long trip they had to make to get there and the high entry price and they're throwing tomatoes. Yeah?

[22:13]

A rabble rouser in the back. What? What? Is that okay with the other group of people? And what some people in our group have also mentioned, that we noticed how intense the sitting in the broadcast was last night. And that you can really see this as getting into the koan, that simply many people have found their seat and that this is also a practice, a practice of the koan. Such things, we get into the koan, or the koan takes over us, or as it is called at the moment. We noticed that several people said that sitting last night was very intense and we thought of that being the case because many people were able or learned to take their seat, took their seat and found their seat.

[23:19]

And that this is a way of entering the koan where you become the koan, is that so? Yeah, the koan. Yeah, yeah. After talking about it all day long, one can also learn that during the day there was a leak and in the evening no one said anything, and then the leak was clogged, or there was no more leaking, and this is also to be learned physically, it also depends on the core. And this experience of throughout the day there was leaking and then at night there was like a... Closing the leak. Closing the leak. And that's an experience where you feel the koan in your body. Okay, good. Yes? Yes. He was in Atmos.

[24:22]

Almost everybody in that group had experience in showing other people how to sit. We also talked about how to approach that because usually people have no idea what they are to expect. What most people do is to deliver the experiential instruction, like to just show them how to sit. And the only other thing you could maybe do is to direct the attention, like to tell them to feel their body or to feel the breath or something.

[25:47]

And during the seminar I became aware of how essential just directing attention is. or directing the point of view. Most of us had enormous difficulties with the core. And when Roshi then gave the advice, who is supposed to be under the medium of the everyday spirit, under this medium, that there are these two types of spirits, then so much began to dissolve. But when Roshi gave us the hint to understand this as two different mind states, like southern mind and usual mind, then a lot started to dissolve.

[27:04]

So it seems that precise explanations don't make a lot of sense, but it's more about directing the attention or introducing the view, the point of view. Particularly when you are to instruct beginners. But for us the same thing is true. Yeah, okay. I noticed something else that is not directly related to the koan. that Roshi really appreciates or also emphasizes for us to verbalize, to express ourselves. I'm not so surprised about the obvious fact that we should develop a vocabulary so that we can understand each other. But I also have the feeling that it's important for us to have our experiences be more present.

[28:33]

And my question is if that, in fact, is a reason of the importance for us to verbalize our experiences. Well, there's a certain skill or style, approach to speaking about practice, in this case the koans, Is there a certain style or approach? I would say most simply what you say should stay very close to your experience. And in general, not be theoretical or about your experience, but reflect your experience. Because if you do that, And you don't try to state what it's about.

[30:22]

That shuts you off. But if you speak about and stay close to your experience it can help you notice your experience more clearly. But not put your experience in a box. So we actually have learned, you probably don't know you've learned, but you've learned a way to speak about practice that helps practice and doesn't interfere with practice. Dieter? I was in the same group with Peter but in a different world. In a different world?

[31:28]

The same group but a different world, okay. I'm glad to hear it. And what we thought of how to explain this shortcut that Peter presented We imagined that someone would present this movie to their mother. And she would be astonished and ask what she would be. She wouldn't know what to do with it. I would like to try to ask how one actually enters a situation, into the present.

[32:36]

And you could attempt to ask how to enter a situation in the present moment. And whether to build upon past experiences or something you imagine. And one could say that the koan tries to present a way how to encounter the present moment. There is this position, this still sitting on the seat. There is the striking of the gavel that catches you from streams of thought into the present moment.

[33:46]

And then there's the disappearance of the object of which attention is directed upon. And what... what ideally leads to attention turning around and you becoming aware of the gathered attention without the attention being directed still. On an object, yeah? Yeah. Okay, well, that's good. Yes, Ingrid? Wir haben das in unserer Gruppe erstmal spielerisch als Theaterstücke gesehen. We also looked at it like at a theater play.

[35:04]

Und dann haben wir versucht, in einfachen Orten, dass jemand, der nichts von Buddhismus weiß, And then we tried to explain that in simple words to someone who does not know anything about Buddhism. And we explained that this koan was about mindfulness, about the teacher and the teaching, and about withdrawing. And about the Buddha, about waking up. What do you mean by observation? So you mean observation?

[36:05]

Yes. Okay, observation. We found out that the time was simply too short. We only went to about half of the Quran. And for us the time was too short. We only proceeded to half of the koan. But I found the process in the bubble very nice and I find it very exciting to work together in this way. But I like the process a lot and I like to work in this way with the group and to always doubt what you just questioned. or to what you have just noticed or understood, to look at that from a different point of view and to also again question that?

[37:11]

What strikes me personally is that in this form of work you don't work too much in the mental field. But what I noticed is that in this kind of working together we shouldn't become too mental. I also look at it from the perspective of looking at a picture. Artists like Paul Klee, for example, he said that paintings have an internal sound. And to me, koans have that, too.

[38:15]

Mm-hmm. Okay, thanks. Yes, Munan? For me, it's important... in the koan... the Highest Beloved and Manjushri. I can see it as two aspects of my person, of everyone. You can put it apart and imagine it as a teacher and For me it's important that I can't help but seeing the Buddha and Manjushri as two aspects of myself or actually of anyone.

[39:17]

And you can look at it like two different teachers and you can try to separate them. The first one is the introspection. You go into yourself. And the second one is the movement, the lek from Manjushri, the movement. And one is introspection where you, yeah, introspection simply, and the other is the leaking of Manjushri where you give shape to the world. Which is active also. And is manifested in the dustness of the world. And the most important sentence for me is the first sentence, closing the door and sleeping is the way.

[40:42]

Because sleeping for me has a lot to do with trusting vastness, trusting the world and trusting your own life. Okay. Danke. Danke. Danke. You know, speaking about Thubten Jimpe again, the Dalai Lama's translator. Yeah, we like each other. We spent quite a bit of time together. It was fun to be with him. He's a fairly young man. And, you know, I knew about the... debating schools in Tibetan Buddhism.

[41:56]

But for him to tell me that he spent 12 years, I guess, every day, or virtually every day, something like 10 hours debating in the courtyard. Whoa! So it's like a sashin, but the whole time you're debating points. At some point he decided not to be a monk and get married to a French woman in Canada. I wonder if she has a chance in arguments. But You know, what they do is they keep refining how they describe the teaching and practices.

[43:16]

You can see that almost all of Buddhist teachings is presented in a dialectical kind of conversational format. And as Munen says, it assumes the dialectic is going on within yourself as well as with others. And these phrases are all meant to make you question yourself. So it's definitely an inner and a dialect which should be going on between us and among us and also within us. And the teacher-disciple relationship is just an aspect of this dialect.

[44:18]

I would like to say something to yesterday and then I have another question. You talked about the difference between adept Zen practice and mindfulness practice. And in our group we did not discuss that topic and this consequence and width. And I really appreciated your intensive explanations on that and they really touched me. And what remains as a question for me? That was his sentence?

[45:50]

She says that you said that there's only one truth that we all share. In the other religion systems. And that Zen Buddhism does not say that. Yes, I said something like that. And if you refer that to the assumption that there is a creator somewhere outside, then that's true? That Buddhism doesn't say that. But then I thought, but then in Buddhism there's even more mutual truth that we all refer to.

[47:19]

Wir erfahren die unterschiedlich. We experience it differently. Aber so Wahrheiten wie, alles ist veränderlich. But a truth like everything is changing or there is no independent self or the truth of the relief of suffering is actually much more of a mutual truth as you can find it in other religions. But you... you can also find it in other religions, or it's more an emphasis on a mutual truth than you do find in other religions. The last one. The last one. I think Buddhism emphasizes much more than other religions that there is a truth that we can all experience and that's just true.

[48:39]

And other religions are really not saying that. Do you understand what I mean? Well, Buddhism is more like a science than any other thing that we have in the West. So it's based on evidence and so forth. Someone asked Bertrand Russell, who is a famous atheist, But Bertrand, what if when you die, you find yourself in front of the pearly gates and there is God? What will you say then? And Russell said, I would say, but sir, You didn't give us enough evidence.

[49:48]

Yeah. So Buddhism really emphasizes evidence, valid cognition. On the basis of evidence, what is a valid cognition? But we don't want to get ourselves in verbal traps like this statement is a lie. I mean, to say that everything changes can be put in the box of this is true. But it's not the same kind of truth as there's a God. To say that everything changes is to say that truth changes.

[51:07]

It only looks linguistically or something like that as fitting in the same category, but it's not the same. What was the second part that you wanted to bring up? That was it. Okay. Thank you for being so open. Anyone else? Someone else? I wanted to say something about the pedagogical structure of such texts. I would like to say something about the pedagogical structure of such a text. It seems to be the case that none of the sentences is arbitrarily at the place where you find it. And also that the internal structure of the Quran is intentionally the way it is.

[52:20]

I hope so. And then, under this aspect, it would be interesting to bring the whole book. And it would be interesting to look at the entire book from this aspect. When the first koan is the opening of the book and the leaking, then it must, if I think about it, give a koan at the end, probably koan 100, where the book is closed again. Then if I follow that line of thought, then in the end there has to be a koan where the book is being closed again, koan number 100.

[53:24]

Can the reader or the adept decide whether he is from the world or not? and where the reader or the adept may be able to decide whether he's the world-honored one or Manjushri. And if that's the case, then also the koans 2 to 99 would have to have an according structure. And also koan number 50, so to say, the break in the middle would have to be a very special koan. Yeah. There's a certain logic in that, too, is what you're saying. But let's try to think about this more realistically.

[54:26]

This is not a book of philosophy. It's a collection of stories. Just like if you collected stories from the last 20 years or so in the Dharma Sangha. Unless you were going to write them, you'd have to collect the stories that have been important to people. And there's many Rokus. Rokus means collection of stories. So, you know, there could be a Vaishada Roku, a Baker Roku, a Rosenblum Roku, etc. And there are such hundreds of thousands, I don't know how many, but lots and lots of Rokus.

[55:27]

You know, and even a Baden Roku, you know. Yeah. It's a little too young to say yet, but, you know. I could. Oh, okay. Okay. So, then there's the stories that actually, because most of these Rokus are forgotten. Nobody ever looks at them again. So, these various records, certain stories stick out. So first of all, you pick the stories that people have found most useful. That have stayed. Like maybe the story about Bertrand Russell sticks around. I mean... What's his name... Samuel Beckett, the Irish writer.

[56:49]

He was in Brooklyn watching a baseball game. And he was with a friend and Beckett had a strange interest in American baseball. And it was a particularly beautiful day and a really great game. And this friend said to Samuel, that's his name, Samuel Beckett, said, Sam, this was a great game. It almost makes life worth living. And Beckett said, I don't think I would go that far. Okay, so these kind of stories, they're stories, right? Probably the Beckett story will be forgotten. You might remember the Russell story.

[57:49]

Okay, so in the end, you've got the most used stories. which have proved, let's say, their pedagogical transformational worth. And then he shows, okay, we've got to pick some number. Shall we have 79 or 83? Let's do 100. And then you say, which is going to be... We've got these hundred stories. We all agree on these hundred stories that practice counsel has made a decision. Which one shall we make first? Oh, yeah, that one. I like that. Then pretty soon they have, well, maybe the 50th one and the last.

[58:51]

But what about the other? Oh, just put them anywhere. Now, the Blue Cliff Records is much more of that. There's just a lot of stories. There's not the organization, but the Shoyuroku comes later, and it's more organized, case by case, but it's not tightly organized. You couldn't tightly organize it without destroying it. Okay, someone else? Yes? In our group we also discussed the question about Manjushri's leaking.

[60:06]

And one version was referring to the instructions that you gave us during one session where we were to observe when we were leaking and lost our mindfulness. And the other version did not have this negative connotation? So the question for me is still, what would be the right opinion, the right variant? And my question would be, what would be the right version of that? You mean, I presented it in the Sashin as it's negative to leak.

[61:35]

Sort of like that. And this koan is positive to leak. Is that what you mean? Yeah, because I also don't quite understand, you said also the practice of compassion is the leakage. If I take this interpretation into this instruction that it doesn't, I mean for me it doesn't make much sense because my experience, I mean the practice of compassion doesn't necessarily, doesn't mean to leak. because I don't feel when I'm practicing the compassion. Okay. It's a reasonable question. The ideal, the Buddha position, is to maintain, would be ideally, to maintain samadhi at all times.

[62:51]

And some teachers try to do that. It's more or less only possible if you're really taken care of. In other words, if you live in a temple and somebody's arranging everything for you, you can maintain a strong, clear state of mind and a wide aura. In other words, if you live in a temple and someone arranges everything for you, then it is possible to maintain a strong state of mind or a strong, clear state of mind and a wide aura. But if you have to argue with the neighbors or you have to earn a living or take care of children and so on, then you're leaking. You can't maintain that samadhi.

[63:58]

Does that make sense to you? So, one learns, one, first of all, experiences, I think most people experience it most clearly, after a sashin, you sometimes leak out the sashin. But the adept practitioner learns how to control and make use of that leaking. and is willing to sacrifice his or her state of mind to go crazy with a crazy person to be like a thief with a thief But still not lose your basic state of mind.

[65:03]

So this is really a way to kind of talk about things. Is it this emphasis or is it that emphasis? And this is the apophasic approach too. You say something and you take it away. So you call it compassion or you call it leaking. It's a way of speaking. A way of communicating. So, bodhisattva practice is often called entering the weeds. Because to help people, you're willing to sacrifice your state of mind. You're willing to be busy. You're willing to rush. You're willing to, you know. Okay. Does that make sense?

[66:05]

Yes. When I'm very good at empathy, then I feel nourished afterwards. I cannot bring that together with talking about leaking. Well, you know, I'll have to think about how to respond.

[67:25]

Of course what you say is true. But to be a therapist, for instance, may be nourishing. But if you work in a mental hospital, and often therapists who work in mental hospitals sometimes go crazy. So in order to establish empathy, you're still willing to take a chance with losing it. The idea is that this is really a language. We're not talking about... So the Buddha would be defined as someone who has an imperturbable state of mind and would never lose their state of mind.

[68:31]

And Avalokiteshvara is characterized as when she meets a thief, she becomes a thief. So you're willing to work in the mental hospital where you may go crazy. So it's that idea. It's not, well, is my experience when I, you know, ideally, of course, compassion and wisdom are really virtually the same thing. But if you're not willing to sacrifice yourself, you can't really be compassionate. Something like that. There is a very nice short story from the Czech Republic.

[69:47]

This is what a doctor and a patient describe. In the end, the doctor, the patient and the patient are evaluated. Just a remark, there's a really nice short story by Chekhov and it's about a patient and a doctor and in the end the doctor becomes the patient and the other way around. Yeah, I know. Hey, good friend of mine. Everybody in his family is schizophrenic except him. Well, that's not true. His mother and father aren't, but his three brothers are. And he drove his brother to cross the United States from San Francisco to New Jersey. So they start out, and they both think they're sane.

[70:55]

And they're in a battle, and whose sanity is right? And crazy people often have a lot of energy. They've been fighting the world for years and so they've got a lot of energy. And my friend said, around the time we crossed the Mississippi, I lost. And we drove into New Jersey crazy as loons. So that was a good bodhisattva attitude. Okay. Yes.

[71:56]

I would like to add to what Lola said. There is experience, but most people who work in social professions, even psychotherapists, describe their work as very exhausting and are often very tired and exhausted from their work. In principle, this is more so than the other way around. I would like to add on what Lona said, that there is that experience of being nourished by empathy. I hope. Most people who work in these fields usually describe their work as being very effortful. Draining. Draining, yeah, draining. Exhausting. Yeah, you should see me after 18 doxans. No, I'm just kidding. Okay. Bernd? Yes, I just wanted to add that, because when I feel myself in someone else, then I identify with him a little bit, and then I take the whole thing, I pick him up there, and that is a mirror, so you have now found out the mirror neurons, I have to create this state in me to meet the person where he is.

[73:21]

I would just like to compliment that by saying that if I feel empathy for somebody, I feel into that person and I identify with that person. And then also the mirror neurons have been discovered. And the good old mirror neurons, yeah. And you feel the state of that person. Yes, this is also my personal experience, that I always And that is always my experience with my clients that I step into their field and then from there on I pick them up and then together we work ourselves out, our way out. And for me the term leaking describes that state very well. Yes. Yes, Christa?

[74:30]

With the victim, the state of a spirit, I don't come together with what you have just told me. If you are with a thief, then I will be a thief, I will also be a thief. So with this, you're not saying it's a sacrifice, right? No, with the fact that Roshi said So I don't get these two things together. You have to sacrifice your state of mind and the saying, you become a thief, or the Bodhisattva becomes a thief when being among thieves. That she understands. But what I can put together is that in Rastenberg he talked about that you decided for yourself, I won't sacrifice my state of mind.

[75:37]

And now my question is, don't sacrifice your state of mind, the practice of the Buddha, and the other is the practice of the Bodhisattva. Oh, dear. You're being all being too, some of you are being too literal. Okay. If I say this bell does not exist, Or if I say this bell is a teacup. And you know it's not a teacup. Or if I say it's actually the skull of my cat. I dug him up out of the garden. Then you have to decide There's the bell, there's he, I believe both of them, what's the truth?

[76:57]

So if I say this is the skull of a cat, then the truth is, why is he saying that? So if I say, I never sacrificed my state of mind, And then I say, the practice of a bodhisattva is to sacrifice his state of mind. You have to figure that out. Okay. Okay. But I've been putting it next to one another for 20 years, for 50 years, you know. I mean, this is a... All of these words are saindavas, okay?

[78:13]

So we move them some out of the category of salt and horse. We make it mean this or we make it mean that. And then we put two or three words together and try to get an aiming at something. So I take some other words, I use some of the same words and I try to aim at something else. The words have no meaning. The phrase has no meaning. There's no entities. It's just an activity. So you take it, what is being aimed at with these words? That's all. That's the best you can do. So if you stick and say, what does this really mean? You've lost it.

[79:16]

Usually that's what I do. Good. I know you usually do that. Okay. Okay. We don't have to do anything. We have to finish the text, huh? Annetta has spoken. Okay. When you practice not losing your state of mind, your effort is not to lose your state of mind. There's no absolute not losing your state of mind except death.

[80:16]

So it's a direction toward not losing your state of mind. But if you make an effort to not lose your state of mind, if you don't make that effort, you don't even know what losing your state of mind is. So through the effort to not lose your state of mind, you learn what it is to lose your state of mind. If you didn't do sashins, you'd never learn what leaking is. Okay. So, through the effort not to lose, the decision not to lose your state of mind, you learn what it is to learn your state of mind. lose your state of mind.

[81:23]

And by learning what it is to lose your state of mind, you learn how to not lose your state of mind. And you learn how to make use of losing your state of mind. And you learn how losing your state of mind can be a way of not losing your state of mind. Und du lernst, wie deinen Geisteszustand zu verlieren auch ein Weg werden kann, deinen Geisteszustand nicht zu verlieren. Et cetera, et cetera. I understand that. Yeah, good. Yes. Okay. It was a certain thing, but now it is too much. Okay. Yes. Yeah. But don't get involved in being right. Okay? Okay? Can you speak a little more slowly? Yes. Because your body doesn't go that fast. The difference between compassion and compassion.

[82:45]

The one compassion was exhausting and burning out. The compassion was when I could forget myself as a person. The difference was one of the first things I learned after the first sesshins is the difference between compassion and pity. One was exhaustive and the other was probably tiring, but when I was able to forget myself was talking, speaking to a patient, we have also crazy patients quite a lot, something appeared, something not personal appeared, which gave sort of strength or which had some power, and then it was not exhaustive.

[83:59]

That was contrary of burning out. Thanks. Of course. How can we explain it to someone who has no idea about Buddhism? And one of the things was, here it is described, this mysterious scene, someone climbs on the throne, screams, someone says, that's it, and he goes away. It's incomprehensible if you don't know anything about Buddhism. Here he says, if there had been someone who could understand the diversity of meaning in the appropriate situation, why would one have had to execute Joshua's stroke? That means, here is a positive description, so to speak, of how it is ideally, how it can be or how it should be.

[85:03]

And that is in a language that you can explain to someone without having the techniques, without having Buddhist knowledge. And that was an aspect on which we could have entered. We try to stick to that explaining Buddhism to someone who doesn't know Buddhism. And when you have the scenery, someone ascends the seat, silent, someone hits and says, this is the Dharma, it goes back, it's completely un-understandable, but the description here, where is it, because it describes this, where is it, If there had been someone there who could understand the multiplicity of meanings according to situations, what would have been the need for Manjushri to strike a beat?

[86:09]

And this is a positive description of how it would ideally be, or could ideally be, or how an ideal person should be, probably. This is in a language which you can confer to someone who doesn't know Buddhism. Okay. From that on, we have an entry. Oh, good. Okay. I would like to say something about the group work. I think it was very helpful, the group, this, yes, this dissonance. Because I noticed, again today, that although we read the text, after reading the whole case, Let me translate it for you. I find the discussion in the group very helpful, because also today, even though we had read the koan, after reading the koan, I used to always feel like I can't find my entry into the piece of paper.

[87:26]

And I actually experience this group work as opening up from the book, or getting into it, and I think that's good. And I experienced this group situation like opening the book and entering and entering. And I really find that to be wonderful. And if I just let all the group situations resonate within me throughout the week, then I notice that each group meeting has some clarified aspects of the koan for me. Good. You know, I mean, I'm not doing this just like... You know, I mean, you guys are pretty new to koans. For, I don't know, two years or three years or something like that, I went through twice a week, sometimes more in separate meetings, all 100 koans of the Blue Cliff Records with Suki Rishi.

[88:43]

So it was a study for two and a half years or so of the hundred koans. And then his teishos in general were interlaced with koans. And I've worked with them since. And I worked with, particularly on the Mu Koan with Yamada Mumon Roshi in Japan. Yeah. And so, you know, I've been doing this for quite a while. So, you know, I'm just trying to share what I've gleaned with you. And I've been doing this for a while now and I'm just trying to share what I already had a glimpse of with you.

[89:45]

Coco. Or what I could look at. Yes. In our group, with Ottmar, we also tried, how do I bring this to a beginner? In our group, I was also in Atma's group, we attempted to see how to teach that to a beginner. And then we found out that you can actually take any word or many words to explain something to him. You can say to him, you are the one who sits on the throne, that is, on your pillow. And then we realized that you could take many words to explain something to that person. You could take, for example, that that person is the one to sit on the seat, to take the seat. Du bist der, der immer die Nägel rausziehen muss. Yeah, the one who needs to have the nails pulled out of his eyes.

[90:46]

Du bist der, ja... Yeah, the one who builds a cart behind closed doors. And brings that out to the people and shows how he is and shares that with people. And then we realized that with this we have an instruction to say something to every person. Okay. Yes? I was in the same group, I would like to add something. This instruction can always arouse ideas in the one who receives it.

[91:52]

And I was in the same group and I would like to add that these instructions will always trigger imaginations in the person who receives the instruction. And that sometimes it may be good to not give this instruction, but to just say, sit down. And see what happens with you. Yes, Hans. So this is what's on my mind right now and an experience that I've been making for a while. When I read the Quran, I understand one or the other aspect.

[93:17]

And at the same time, it's true that more questions arise than the ones that I have answered. Questions or actually it's like a space is opening up that grows and grows. And when I go back in my memory, I think I used to have, with impatience and who reacts impatiently and with such an inner sentence, my God, there must be an answer somehow. And if I remember, I think in former times I might have reacted to that with being impatient and with a kind of internal thinking of, geez, there has to be some kind of answer now.

[94:31]

And a new experience that I have in different areas of life is that I, so to speak, And the new experience that I'm making is that I can actually enter this space and that I can enter it with a certain curiosity and that the space doesn't scare me. And also, what is very important, a kind of trust, this unknown, or sometimes I also have the image that if I enter an unknown continent and somehow feel a kind of trust in me, something will happen. And sometimes I have the images as if I were stepping upon an unknown continent and something within me feels that something will happen.

[95:47]

And this fact alone, or this deep experience without me knowing what actually happens, And just the fact or the feeling that I feel like something will happen without me knowing what exactly that could be, somehow that gives me a sense of security. Yeah, I understand. It's like that. Okay. Yes? I'd like to say something about the koan. What I experienced through our group situation, which I think is very fruitful,

[96:48]

that there is a new access now for me. And that is because I realize that the choir really appeals to me and challenges me and really has something to do with me directly and no longer I read it and try to understand it. What I notice is that there's a new kind of access and I feel the koan really talking to me and directly being in relation with me without me trying to understand it all that much. And then I notice that with many aspects that I don't understand yet, that I first of all have to find the questions.

[98:04]

Okay. We seem to have postponed the exciting part. I said we were getting the exciting part in the text. But let me say something about the text. Just for a few minutes. First of all, it's clear this is something that's written a thousand years ago or so. And in a quite different culture than our own. It's amazing, just at that level, that it speaks to us so clearly.

[99:19]

So we can assume that it speaks to us so clearly, partly because there's some kind of historical convergence of contemporary global culture and Tang and Sun dynasty culture. Much of the poetry and travel stories and things, it sounds like we could be saying it to ourselves. It reads contemporary to us. But the most important thing is, I think, is that we are doing the practice which these koans are about. Okay, now... You also have to, I think it's helpful to say, as I said in that piece, this is the way the Chinese Zen practitioners tried to make the Sutric texts and the Abhidharmic texts Chinese and for them and for the Zen practices.

[100:52]

So they're trying to take the basic teachings of the Madhyamaka Yogacara and Huayen schools and weaving them into stories. and make it look like conventional truth. Well, if you make it other than conventional truth, if you make it too blunt, too explicit, then it leaks. I could say that the phrase, to have a cup of tea, is an expression of the second part of the lecture I didn't give today.

[101:55]

But it can't be explained. If I explain it in a relationship, you just won't get it. Because have a cup of tea. What could be more conventional than that? How can having a cup of tea simultaneously be an expression of the highest truth of Buddhism? One thing is you don't say it's the highest truth of Buddhism because then you really lose it. Then everybody's leaking. And you could say to the taxi driver, you know, the highest truth of Buddhism is to have a cup of tea. And he says, great, just as soon as I let you off, I'm going to go have a cup of coffee. And he says, that's great, because especially when I sit you down, I drink a cup of coffee.

[103:32]

But also the teaching of presenting it as ordinary conversation. Fairly ordinary conversation. is because in our ordinary life everything is there, except we don't notice it because we only see it with our consciousness. So if you go to see a Zen teacher, and if he says to you, where are you from? If you say, I'm from the source of original mind, from the field of the repository consciousness, get the hell out of here. Because this isn't leaking, this is flooding. You've got to say, you know, I'm from Berlin.

[104:56]

But you say it in a way that you can feel the person is aware of, you know, wider than this is just a question about, you know, what city you're from. So it's like, you know, it's like sometimes I say non-dreaming deep sleep can surface in your daily life. So in this koan you can see things surface and then they disappear beneath the surface and then they surface, etc. And these are, from the point of view of our school, the highest form of our teaching. Und das ist aus der Sichtweise unserer Schule heraus die höchste Form der Lehre.

[106:04]

With the way to understand it built into it. The way to understand it is built into it. It's a bit like, you know, I remember Charles Olson, who was an American poet. And he was a great big guy. Six, I don't know, six. I'm six one or two or something like that. He was about six four or something like that. I was one and ninety. Anyways, a great big guy. And his book of poems is called Maximus Poems. And he and Robert Duncan, also a poet, taught at Black Mountain College in North Carolina, I guess.

[107:10]

And he and Robert Duncan, who is also a poet, taught at a college in North Carolina. which for ten years or so was the center of much of the creativity of the American art scene in music, ballet, poetry, etc. And it was for more than a decade the cultural center of America for the arts, for ballet, for music, for poetry, etc. Okay, so... Robert Duncan was going to speak about vowel leading to a group of young poets. Vowel leading, how instead of using rhyme, you use the repetition of vowels to lead your line. Poets don't tell the secrets of how they compose to other poets. That's not exactly competitiveness.

[108:12]

It's like you leak if you talk about it. But Charles knew, they were both friends of mine, Charles knew that Robert would talk about these things to beginners because they don't understand anyway. So somebody's walking by and the window is about like this high, I guess. And they found this huge man hiding in the bushes behind Robert's window, listening to see what Robert would say about vowel leading. Charles, what are you doing there in the bushes? Now, these koans are... If in a poem... Within the poem, there were hidden instructions about how to write the poem.

[109:35]

Yeah. And how to create the state of mind that produces the poem. Koans are like that. You just can't expect to read them for the first time and think, oh, this is really grooving, man. This is wisdom, not groove. Okay, so, I'm going to take another couple of minutes. Okay, so, here we have where we left off yesterday. Chen Kien Dung says, the unique breeze of reality, do you see? Is it the world-honored ones ascending the seat?

[110:42]

That is the unique breeze of reality. Is it Tien Tung's reciting his verse, the unique breeze of reality? Is my further inquiry the unique breeze of reality? This way it's become three levels. What is the unique breeze of reality? Indeed, you people each have a share. But you should investigate it thoroughly. What's surfacing in this paragraph? Well, first you're surfacing in the paragraph. Okay. So you're the fourth level. Because you're reading it. Okay. So the first level is the story. The world-honored one getting up and demonstrating wisdom.

[111:56]

The second level is Tien Dung's initial verses. The third level is the commentary. So that's just the structure of the case. Now, what do I often show you in my staff... And in the figure in the Kannon figure in Creston, there's the lotus pod, there's the lotus bud, there's the lotus embryo. Where's the flower? Now, it's just assumed... Because this is also like when they used to teach Christianity primarily or it was presented through paintings in churches.

[113:11]

It assumes an engaged gaze. So it assumes An engagement. So again, Russian icons, the Russians say, you look through the icon at God. So when you have an engaged looking at Avalokiteshvara, You look through Avalokiteshvara and see Avalokiteshvara. You might do a drum or you might do something like that because it brings the figure alive in you. The figure is not an entity, it's an activity.

[114:19]

If you see it as an activity, from a Buddhist point of view, you're just dumb. you see it as an activity and you engage it as an activity. So engaged gaze, the eye beams going out to it, immediately sees the iconography of the pod and et cetera, et cetera, and says, you immediately feel, where's the bloom? I'll bet nobody who's ever come to Crestone except me has ever seen that the bloom is not there. Why is that?

[115:34]

Because we have a tendency to see it as an entity. I've never pointed it out to anyone in Crestown, and I've pointed it out over and over again, who hasn't been surprised. Okay. In this case, in this, so, what does he say? He says, there's the case, which, based on something, an event in the world, thinking. There's the verse, that's the second level, and that's how it's put together. It's a construct, this thing. There's the third level, the commentary. But you're reading it.

[116:34]

You have to be the fourth level. If you don't see you're the fourth level you're not reading it. Du musst die vierte Ebene sein. Und wenn du nicht siehst, dass du die vierte Ebene bist, dann siehst du es nicht. Also das weist darauf hin, dass du die vierte Ebene bist. And in case you don't notice, he says, you people each have a share. Und nur für den Fall, dass ihr das nicht bemerkt, sagt Hexagonal. Boom, boom, boom. Boom, boom, boom. Mighty blows. Aber wenigstens solltest du das gründlich erforschen. Okay? But what else is surfacing in here? That's the part tomorrow.

[117:31]

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