Is there anything you'd like to discuss? Yes. to hear them because of this spectrum. However, I felt feelings of feeling bad, feeling ashamed, feeling, well, I didn't know. Sometimes you state things from a good place with a good heart, but that person doesn't perceive it that way. I hurt this person.

[01:05]

So, all these feelings came up for me, and all I could do was say, I'm sorry. That person is very trained in this practice, so they responded by saying, you heard. You heard? You heard. They felt you listened? instead of saying you're sorry, you know, that I had heard them. So where does sorbities and apology play into this practice and shame and all the other feelings that might come about from somebody letting you know you've upset them. Am I supposed to feel shameful or upset?

[02:06]

What are these feelings that come up? How do I deal with those emotions? Basically, the same. Listen to those, too. So if someone says that... I want to tell you that when we met on such and such an occasion, I felt pain or I felt... I thought you didn't take care of me well. So we started out by listening to that. And if you listen to that completely, you still might have feelings arise in you while you're listening really well. And then you listen to those feelings too. And you might also, one of the feelings you might have is a feeling of sorrow.

[03:12]

And when you feel that sorrow, you might feel like, and if you feel it fully, you actually, if you feel it fully, you might feel like you don't have to say anything. But you might also feel like, maybe I'll actually tell them that I feel sorrow. about what happened. Like a lot of times people tell me about some pain they're in, and I say, I'm sorry. And they say, it's not your fault. If you tell me about some pain you're in, and I say, I feel I'm sorry, I don't mean that it's my fault. I just mean I feel sorrow hearing about the pain. But I don't always say I'm sorry when somebody tells me about their pain. Sometimes I do. Even if I listen fully, I still might say, I'm sorry, or I feel sorrow. You might have said that, and you did, I guess. Did you say that?

[04:14]

Yeah, you maybe felt some sorrow. But aside from saying that you felt sorry, even if you hadn't said that, you still would have felt sorry. the feeling of sorrow would have still been there. And then what I'm talking about is when the person cries out, you listen to them totally, and still you might feel sorrow when you're listening to them totally. And then you listen to your sorrow totally. And by doing that, this wonderful thing happens, that you hear the Dharma. While the person's crying out to you, telling you their pain about their relationship with you, if you really hear it, you also hear the Dharma. But hearing the Dharma doesn't mean you don't have feelings of sorrow. When you hear about people who are devoted to trying to help people find a way to deal with AIDS, the people who are doing that work get shot out of the sky, you feel sorrow.

[05:29]

I mean, I feel sorrow. It doesn't mean I wasn't listening fully that I feel sorrow. But I should also feel my sorrow fully. So the point is to be able to hear the teaching all the time. While people are telling you they have problems with you, and while people are telling you that they really appreciate you, if you listen fully, you hear the Dharma. But then afterwards, you may feel sorrow, or you may feel gratitude, and you listen to the sorrow and the gratitude totally, and when you listen to them totally, you hear the Dharma. So in this case, you listen to the person as best you could, And then you felt sorrow and you listened to that as best you could. You listened to it enough so that you could notice it and tell them about your sorrow.

[06:38]

So it sounds like you were trying to listen in both cases. You were listening to them and you listened to your inner sorrow. Both of those we listened to. And we're trying to listen to them so fully that we don't just hear the cries. inside the cry, we hear the Dharma too. Because that's what really helps people. The Dharma is, well, the Dharma part is that you and I and all beings and all enlightened Buddhas, we're like one. That's the Dharma part. The person who's telling me that they have resentment towards me and myself and the Buddhas are not two. But when somebody's telling me that they have resentment towards me, I might think, well, that's not me.

[07:39]

We're separate. Well, that's the way it looks, but that's not the Dharma. Dharma is, we're not two. But when they're saying to me, I'm definitely not you, And you're a bad person at that moment? I have to listen to that in order to hear the Dharma which says, the person who's criticizing me and me are not too. That's the ground of freedom, is that we're not separate. And we need to put roots down into that ground of non-separation. And the way we put the roots down into the ground of non-separation is to listen to those cries of separation. And then by listening to those cries of separation, we grow. We grow perfect wisdom.

[08:46]

Yes? I wanted to finish that too. For listening and practicing, I've really experienced a lot of pain listening to the radio this week and I've been stopping with the children saying, how does one cope with the normality of this? the world in suffering is so cute. And then, what's my reaction, which is, in order to carry on, I just have to carry on with my day. I've got to hold it all the time. We'll be speaking to other friends, trying to find out what they think about things so I can carve out what I feel about when things are going to happen. But, on a personal level, becoming a bodhisattva is something that I've long aspired to do.

[10:00]

Yet, when your group invited me to come and participate in becoming a bodhisattva in 2012, I said I could not because I was consumed with that kind of tumultuous relationship with my ex now of 23 years. And I continued to see him as my teacher, but my reactivity is combustible, and I just react all the time. So yesterday, I was at the hospital, my son was having the E-surgery, I placed a scarf around his necklace and played a cold, and my ex said, take it off him, he looks gay, I have to take it off him, the nurses are looking, get him a blanket, and I was, enraged because of the punitive nature, the jest, the perpetual urge of doing their own thing that I'm insulted with.

[11:06]

But it brought me to go and see or listen to Mark Epstein and Thoughts Without a Finger and I'm struggling with understanding the things that you said and now that with being aware of my ego and the I, and realize this good being who I love so much, my ex, is my teacher. When I decided to kill him, I knew it was a mistake. I said, you hurt my feelings. He said, you hurt my feelings and I never bring it up. And I find what you said a long time ago, if you were jesting about I recognize that I am thinking that I'm better than this other person. You were saying about a year ago, and it was hilarious, basically. Now that I recognize that I recognize that, am I now for a better person? So through the wire I said, dude, and you're just continuing to tell me you're a better person.

[12:09]

So it's just, I'm sitting with, instead of continuing to suffer from hell of anger. And it brings a great deal of sorrow to read, to intellectualize, but not, it can't get into my heart yet. What you've said today is helpful. But I wish I could be completely absolved right away and make these spirits be gone for me. So I'm going to have this sorrow of my own resentment that's showing you by me. Thank you. I think it would be good if you would kind of go through what you just did again by yourself to say the same things again, sort of as you can remember.

[13:44]

But do it more slowly. And while you're doing it, listen. Listen to your own words about the situation while you're while you're thinking these words. Because these words that you expressed are the cries of the world. So, you did express them just now, and we were all listening to you. But were you listening while you were doing it? And it's hard sometimes when I'm saying that my feelings are hurt to listen to myself while I'm saying it. But I think now that you've said this, that you can kind of remember what you said. And now just sit quietly at some point soon and say it again, but listen to it while you're saying it. And then see if your listening is, if you feel like your listening is wholehearted.

[14:53]

If you can listen, like, just listen without getting into any comment, but just listen. When you were talking, I was not thinking, she's talking kind of fast. But when you finished, I thought, well, she talked kind of fast. So then I said to you, I think it'd be good to say it again to yourself more sort of with your breathing. I think that might be helpful. And one other thing I want to say is she referred to a A ceremony that we've done a couple of times, it's called a bodhisattva vow ceremony, which we put on an invitation to a certain group of people if they wanted to come and basically, in a group setting, say stuff like, I vow to realize complete, perfect enlightenment, and to say that in a group, and to say it three times.

[16:02]

And also to say things like, for those who are without a friend, I will be a friend. For those without a refuge, I vow to be a refuge. For those without a protector, I vow to be a protector. We made vows like this. And she was invited, but she didn't feel like it was the right time to come. So maybe later. But that's what she was referring to. Yes? Do you want to come up here and use the microphone? You opened yourself to, when you did... May I turn it on for you? You opened yourself to a lot of confessions when you gave people, I think, permission to say how they feel about you.

[17:08]

So sometimes I felt like my questions were something annoying to you. So that's just a statement, but I know now. You explained it enough today. I know where I was. Anyway, my mother right now is in the hospital, and she's struggling with her health for a long time. And I call her regularly. I called her last night. And she talked about her health. And after she described the doctors and everything, and I said, and what's going on with all those sirens going on? And she said, what do you want me to tell you about? There is nothing. I have a whole minute and a half to get to the shelter. And it's hard for me to talk right now. So, I don't know, I might just cry. Sorry.

[18:10]

Don't hurry. Just don't hurry. So she put it very simply. She just has a minute and she felt very lucky. that she has a minute and a half to get to the shelter. The woman next to her had to be put in a wheelchair and get to the shelter. And people in the south has to be 30 seconds. And she mostly was worried that my brother shouldn't come to visit her because he came to visit her and he's in danger. And that was all. There was no story to it. She really... was grounded in the facts in her life at that moment, which was a great lesson for me. I needed that lesson. Because I'm here, and I hear that I'm very, right now, look at the news all the time, with compassion to everyone. I mean, I really do. But I have my circle around me, that it's my old parents, my brother, and somehow I'm not enlightened to the degree that...

[19:14]

I can separate and make everyone one. I do, in very deep level. I'm terrified when I see any kid or any person die, and it's just horrible. But there is immediate circle that I can't... I'm still very concerned about my family. Anyway, that was a big help for me. She did help me to be more grounded in the fact... I call it a minute and a half now, you know? So I have my minute and a half when I read all the news that I saw through. I think that's enough. I just wanted to share it and maybe to cry. I don't allow myself to cry. I really don't. I feel like if I will let it all go, it's just I will be... I won't be able to be, you know, so I'm really trying to, I don't cry, I just feel sadness and I try to distract myself a lot.

[20:17]

And with all of my practice, when it comes down to that, that's my reality right now. Anyway, thank you for listening. Anything else you'd like to discuss? Yes, please. Please come. Good to see you. Good to see you, Sabi. for many years I've been practicing listening to the cries of the world but lately it has been difficult because I see too many bad things happening in the world you know we have this airplane that was shot and

[21:53]

I'm thinking to myself, hmm, there's 280 people or so that died. But if I tune into other news, I would see that something is happening in Israel and Palestine, and there are kids being killed too. And not much, some is said about it, but... mostly the media is focusing in the airplane. But I also see what is happening in Syria and what is happening in Iraq, explosion, people getting killed in mosque and Afghanistan. And sometimes it's very difficult for me to read about it. So I kind of close up myself a little bit to hear the cries of the world.

[22:58]

And I go about something else, going swimming or walk or what. And I'm thinking that there has to be some sort of a balance whereby you can hear the cries of the world and be helpful. to the people around you. Because I think if you're not helpful, you listen too much to the cries of the world, and you get down, go down, getting depressed, you're not going to be able to help people around you. So there has to be some form of a balance. And I don't know if you can say something about that. Yeah, so I said, first listen, then train.

[24:00]

So the training is where you observe whether you're getting down. So for example, in the practice of compassion, there's two near... places to slip when you're practicing compassion. One is to go into depression, and the other is to go into lust. And depression is the closest one, and then there's a little bit farther is the lust one. I forgot which one's closest, but anyway. Some people, when they practice compassion, when they listen, they get depressed. That's an example of listening incompletely. So yeah, You said balance, so when you listen completely, you're balanced, and you're generous, and you're ethical, and you're patient, and you're diligent, and you're calm.

[25:06]

So... If you don't listen completely, you can get depressed when you hear things. So you need to... Sometimes, maybe, if you... hear something, something very painful and you, someone's in pain and you feel pain, maybe it's good to jump in some cold water. That might be a good thing to do. Just swim for a while in cold water. And you come out and then you sort of like, and while you're swimming you still remember the pain but it's a more balanced, you know, you're not, you're not getting off balance with it. So yes. And then if you can listen in a balanced way, then you hear the Dharma. And when you hear the Dharma, then that hearing will help people. So like you said, carry on with your day.

[26:08]

You said, go for a swim or a walk. Sometimes those taking a walk with the cries is helpful. Like I heard one teacher said that he was connected to Vietnam, and he'd get all these terrible news from Vietnam. He opened his mail once a week. He didn't open it every day. So you're listening, but also there's a rhythm in your listening. So you listen, and then you sort of say, okay, can I fully experience that in Maybe it takes me a while to really fully open to it. OK, now I'm ready for the next slap. Yes, want to come up?

[27:11]

OK. I must protect myself. I must be away from people for a while. I can't drink more pain. Do you have... I'm curious about how you work your balance. Yes. Yeah. I see... So if pain's coming and I notice that I'm tensing up, I might say, could we have a little break here on the pain so I can just... That's enough for now. I'm starting to tense up. But I'm not trying to control it so much. I feel like it's getting to be more than I can be relaxed and patient with. I might say that verbally or to myself.

[28:16]

And I'm patient with not only... I want to practice patience with the pain, but if I feel the pain is getting up to a place that where I'm not going to be patient, I might say, let's just take a little rest here. Part of being enthusiastic about being patient is resting from the pain. So I rest, like I often use a mild example of my grandson, who's now a big boy. He doesn't want to play with me anymore. But he used to sometimes be here, and he thought I was really fun to play with. And he wanted to play with me nonstop. And sometimes I'd say to him, I think I need a little break. I just need a five-minute nap. No, no, no. No, granddaddy. Just five minutes. No, no, no, no, no, no. And there she'd say, 10 minutes. And he said, no, no, no. How about five? OK. I said, if you let me take a nap, I'll be a better playmate after I rest a little bit.

[29:25]

It wasn't that painful to be with him, but I started to feel tired. And he got 10 hours of sleep. So anyway, and he said, OK, and then I go rest. And I come back and say, OK, I'm ready. So part of being enthusiastic is resting, to know when you've done enough of something, when you're starting to get overwhelmed. One of the main things that I repeat is that offering boundaries can be a really great gift. When somebody's doing something and it's getting to be something you don't feel comfortable with, you can offer the gift of, I'm not comfortable with this. And this really helps the relationship.

[30:27]

In order to be intimate sometimes, we have to share our boundaries with people. And so, and then sometimes when we share them, they say, I don't want, I don't like that boundary. Well, you can say they don't respect them at all, so maybe they don't respect them at all. Yeah, like my, again, like a little child, doesn't respect it at all. So then you offer it again. Maybe not right away, but you offer it again, and again, and maybe finally say, okay. Or also sometimes you offer a boundary, And the person says, no. Or they even say, actually, you don't need it. And you sometimes say, you're right. Sometimes when you're feeling tired or stressed, if you say you're tired or stressed, after you say it, you feel more relaxed. Like sometimes when I'm meditating and I feel tired when I'm sitting here, rather than fight the tiredness, I just go to the bottom of the tiredness.

[31:30]

And someone would say, well, then you might fall asleep. And it's true, I might. if I resist the tiredness, I get more tired. So sometimes, okay, let's just go to the, just fully embrace this tiredness. And then I'm, sometimes that refreshes me. Not always, but. So, if you're feeling stressed or in pain, sometimes just notice, just acknowledging that you're getting to the limits of what you can relax with and accept. Sometimes that opens it up wider. But sometimes you say it and the situation supports you to rest and you rest and you come back and try again. So, okay. Anything else?

[32:20]

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