Good morning. A few things I want that I said last night at our gathering that I just want to reiterate logistical things. One is to say that we will have more opportunities to gather and remember and speak to and about Sojourn Roshi in the next couple of weeks. And at a certain point, which has not been determined yet, there will be a cremation ceremony. And that will be live streamed so that people can can see that the date hasn't been fixed yet.

[01:01]

But when we know all this stuff will be announced on the on the Web site. And also, there is what is called a kudo board on the front page of the Web site. And maybe Lori or someone can type into the chat the the link for the kudo board so that it's a wonderful opportunity. Instead of sending sort of personal condolences to individuals or to say to Liz Horowitz or Daniel, we can we can see what we're doing in public and share it widely, share our thoughts and our sentiments widely in the in the community. And just to say it, it is going wide.

[02:04]

I think maybe you saw there was a piece in Lion's Roar. I've been talking to Tricycle and they will have a something about Sojourn coming soon. And through messages that have been coming to and and through me from have been quite extraordinary and wide ranging, actually. People commenting, people from five continents. And it's really amazing to see the the breadth of feeling. And, you know, mysteriously how Sojourn Roshi. How his teachings and his being communicated so widely for someone who was he certainly was not self-promoting in any way.

[03:14]

And, you know, he kept this this very quiet, steady presence here at Berkley Zen Center. And it's it's really instructive to see how that steadiness can have this enormous reach in effect. I wanted to say something brief about honorifics and titles, because in the service that we did this morning, we referred to Sojourn Roshi as Daisho. Which really means. It means great teacher or or very high ranking priest. And we have these various titles.

[04:17]

Roshi in Soto Zen has a little different meaning than Roshi in Rinzai. In Rinzai, it's it's a kind of ecclesiastic rank. In Soto, it's used a lot more freely and it really means old teacher or old master. It's it's a it's a kind of intimate and broad form of address. So when I was practicing at Zuioji in Japan, you referred to everybody in a like you had the Tenzo Roshi and the Ino Roshi. And these could have been old people or young people. But it was it sort of the it went along with their position in the monastery. We don't use it that much. I really like the idea of that you that you kind of need to be old to be called Roshi.

[05:22]

And also one of the things that I've seen in the United States that I'd never seen in Japan and it kind of like chalk on the blackboard to me is people referring to themselves. Teachers referring to themselves as Roshi. And I've just I've never seen that in in Soto circles. And it's not entirely comfortable for me. To hear it to hear it used that way. So I think that in our formal what we what I what I've learned and I've seen. So when you when you have lay ordination or priest ordination, you receive a lineage document and it's a document. It has all of the teachers, all of the teachers in the lineage from Shakyamuni Buddha down through Sojin or through me or someone else.

[06:24]

And all of the Chinese and Japanese teachers are referred to as Daisho. They are teachers in our lineage. And when you get to like on on my on my lineage paper after Suzuki Roshi, Shunryu Suzuki Daisho, you have Hoitsu Suzuki, Hakuryu Sojin and then your name here. But they do not use that honorific Daisho. So are usually we do not we don't use that until a person has passed away. And so now to me, Sojin is Sojin Daisho in a formal sense and in an informal sense or in the sense that he occupies our minds, that he is alive in our minds.

[07:40]

I think of him as Sojin Roshi. And I realized yesterday that before we have the mountain seat ceremony in in a few weeks. I want to have a photograph of him. Next to Suzuki Roshi in the founder's altar. That's that's the place that that's a place that he occupies at this point in time. So so those are just a few things that help me wander into this talk. I had another completely different talk in mind and more or less prepared. And that talk was on what's called the five remembrances or the five recollections.

[08:47]

They're teaching from the Upajatana Sutta, which is in the numerical discourses in which you have everything categorized by the ones, twos, threes, fours, fives and so forth. It's the I think it's the largest of the it's the largest or almost the largest of the Pali Suttas. And. I was going to kind of unpack them, but I'm going to read them to you anyway, because I think they're they're instructive and lead us into what we can talk about. So these are five remembrances, five things to consider on a daily basis. And they were they applied to they were taught both to lay people and to monks.

[09:52]

One is I'm sure to become old. I cannot avoid aging. Two, I am sure to become ill. I cannot avoid illness. Three, I am sure to die. I cannot avoid death. For. I will be separated and parted from all that is dear and beloved to me. And five, I am the owner of my actions. Air of my actions. From actions. Have I come? Actions are my relations. Actions are my protections. Whatever actions I do, good or bad. Of these, I shall become the air.

[10:54]

So. I think that. Many of these, whether we articulate them in this form or not, are issues that. Are on our mind. And certainly they've been issues that have been matters that have been on our mind in this in this period. Watching Sojourn. In this transition, I mean, it's. It's remarkable. Because many of us have seen him for so many years. And. You know, it really wasn't until recent months. That he looked old. It's really unusual.

[11:57]

Just such an unusual. Youth. Not just a youth, but, you know, a density and glow to his skin tone. You know, a vigor to his walk and expression. And something that. Quite amazing for a person of of 90. And, you know, one could imagine. It was going to be that way. Always. And then the illness really. Took its toll. But I find that I'm remembering him, even though I saw him pretty frequently in the last couple of months. I'm remembering. The vitality.

[13:00]

So this is part of we talk about the five remembrances. It's not just for me, what that invokes is. Not just reflect, not just. Reflecting on. The facts of my own life and the issues of karma. But I'm also. Thinking about sojourn, calling him up in my memory. So this this word, the word for. Memory. Is Saki in Pali, Smriti in Sanskrit. And. Often, that's that's the word that we translate as mindfulness. And I've never been in love with that translation.

[14:06]

I think that the word mindfulness has a to me. It's kind of it's I believe it was actually the word that was kind of. Put in place by Victorian era. Translators with with a. Kind of strong Christian undertone. But more literally, it means remembering. Or recollecting. And those are interesting words, right? Remembering. It's like. Put all those. Arms and legs and limbs, put them back together and make a whole body. And recollecting also is, you know, recollecting. But in both those cases, it's remembering recollecting. It's it's putting back together.

[15:09]

Something that. Was originally whole. And can return to wholeness. And this this reminds me of the. The Jewish mystical. Notion of Tikkun Olam, the healing of the world in which the images of the. World as if it were a shattered mirror that had broken into. A countless. Countless shards. That it was our job to recollect. To put it together into one whole. So when I think about this process. The five recollections or just my ordinary recollections, I. I find I'm applying that. To sojourn.

[16:14]

I'm recollecting him in my mind, even as according to our. Teachings. His scandals or what was provisionally called his self. Is now flowing freely in the universe. But my remembrance. Has a lot of very particular. Aspects to it, I was just thinking of it downstairs. Before the talk, I was getting some water and I was standing at the kitchen. Kitchen sink looking out the window and it looks right down to his office. And, you know, I was always. I was always acutely aware.

[17:18]

Of when he was there. You know, you could sometimes tell because the blinds were. Were open. But there was also a kind of subliminal sense of of his presence that. That I picked up. I. Instinctively knew, even if I was up here in my office. I could hear I recognized his car when it pulled into the driveway and the way he. Closed his door. And I think a lot of us also recognize the way he closed his office door in the morning when he came out. Was vigorously, you know, wasn't like careful, mindful, very slow and quiet. You know, direct. And I'm remembering that.

[18:22]

He he is in the details or the sinews of my of my mind. And to say that. It's very hard to. Comprehend that I will hear that car door. I won't. See. Him in the office, I won't be able to knock on the door and and have him say hi. And the door was always open. You know, and he was always willing to be. Interrupted. Now, maybe that's good, maybe that's not good, but that was his practice. And it's something that's a really it's a great and challenging model for for all of us. And just to say that.

[19:24]

We did not always agree on everything. There were times of. Difference or even some tension between us. But at the same time, there was it was always reassuring. To feel that he was there. And to to know that he was. He was accessible. Irrespective of whether I wanted to avail myself of that or not. And that was incredible. It's a comfort, you know, it's. It's. He reminds me of the old song, motherless children have a hard time when their mother is gone.

[20:28]

Both mother or father, perhaps, but. There's a comfort we know when. That person is in the world. And we can we can turn to them. So. The other remembering and recollecting. That I am doing. Is. I think I alluded to this last night for those of you were there. I feel like I'm. Gathering bits and pieces of myself. Ha. Trying to sense. And. Take stock of. What shattering or brokenness. I am feeling.

[21:32]

That I'm not even necessarily fully aware of yet. And to know that this was also. The practice that he gave that surgeon gave to us in the same way as it's the practice that Suzuki Roshi gave to his students. So in this, there's a, there's an expression that surgeon used that I. The best of my knowledge. He got it from category Roshi and it's a kind of. Paraphrase of. Dogen. Ha. That our job as instance. And the, and the, the activity of Zazen, which we, which we are doing today.

[22:38]

Is to settle the self on the self. Self. I'm not entirely sure. How to express what that means to me. But it's, it's like. I see. Like a layer of self. And then. The self that settles on it. And, you know, this layer is a little vague and fuzzy. But when I settle the self on the self. Then it's clear and vivid. And we know that the practice of Zazen. We know that. We finished today. Today's sitting.

[23:41]

When we look out the window. There's going to be a clarity. And a Christmas. To our vision to our hearing. That has been. Heightened maybe subtly. By. By this practice. And I think that that's, that's kind of, it's not the purpose of the practice. It's the action of the practice. To settle the self on the self. And I think it's a really good question to hold. It's like, how do I do that? To bring up another matter. The other night.

[24:44]

When. Some of the priests were sitting around. Surgeon's body. We had a discussion. Without a conclusion. So, where is he. And there are various doctrinal. Propositions. About what happens to the body, what happens to the. To the self, what happens to the skandhas. What about. Karma and rebirth. And. Continuation. There's a line in our funeral liturgy that I've always loved.

[25:52]

Even though I question with it. I questioned it. In the liturgy, there's a line that says, the great mystery. Is no mystery to him or her now. And that's pronounced with great. Sureness. And I find it very moving. And I confess it's somewhat. Unverifiable. You know. Or at least to my sense, it is. My. The unenlightened. Part of me, which. It's very much alive. I think I've. When you ask searching about. Rebirth. I've heard him say several times.

[26:55]

I don't remember. And I really like that. It's like this to me. It doesn't necessarily make sense that there's not. The continuation of your energy or the continuation of your karma. But whether it's life to life. Maybe, but you know, it's like. That memory. I don't have access to that memory. So I don't. I don't really know. We had. I think I've told this story before. I did sashin at Hoki Oji. In. Maybe 1986 Hoki Oji was category Roshi's rural. Center. It was beautiful out in. On the border of Minnesota and Iowa. Very near the Mississippi River.

[27:56]

And you could hear the. Coyotes and wolves howling at night. It was pretty wild place. And the Zendo was a. Kind of tent structure. It had. Wood lattice walls, but it had a canvas. Roof that was tied down. Like a tent top. And. You know, at night it was like. You were in a big sailing vessel. And the wind would be whipping through the. Through the yards, you know, through the through the ties. It was wonderful. So one night during lecture, he said, OK, tomorrow. I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to explain because a lot of you been asking. I'm going to explain about rebirth. So. I got excited. A lot of people got excited. We're really going to we're going to get the lowdown on this.

[28:58]

And. He came in for lecture the next day. And started. And he got about. Five minutes into it. And he said. I can't do this. Said the problem is. I believe and you don't believe. And so there we are. We are left on our own. To meet. This mystery. How do we want to continue? We continue in each other's minds. We continue in the in the minds and memories of friends and. Children, etc. And the impact of our. Efforts.

[30:01]

Are our continuation. So I thought before I open it up. I'm actually going to sing you a relevant song. Which I've sung before. And. Last week, a couple of days ago, not so not so long ago. I brought my guitar. Over to surgeons. And I sang. I sang and played for him for. About 45 minutes. He was kind of a captive audience. And. And he wasn't. Particularly responsive, but but Liz loved this. She said, oh, I want this song at my memorial. This is a song that. Some of you may know. By Iris Dement. It's called Let the mystery be. Let the mystery be.

[31:14]

Everybody's wondering what. Where they all came from. Everybody's worried. Where they're going to go. When the whole thing's done. No one knows for certain. Think I'll just let the mystery be. Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever. Some say you're gonna come back. Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior if in sinful ways you lack. Some say you're coming back in a garden, a bunch of carrots and little sweet peas. I think I'll just let the mystery be.

[32:25]

Some say they're going to a place called glory. I ain't saying that's not a fact. But I've heard I'm on the road to purgatory and I don't like the sound of that. Cause I believe in love and I live my life accordingly. And I choose to let the mystery be. Everybody's wondering what and where they all came from. Everybody's worrying where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done. Well no one knows for certain, so it's all the same to me.

[33:40]

I think I'll just let the mystery be. No, no one knows for certain, it's all the same to me. I think I'll just let the mystery be. So, I think we have some time for questions, reflections, opinions. I'm going to give it back to Mary Beth to describe the process, okay? Okay. So, as you know, things change, right? Zoom has changed its platform. We can no longer raise our digital blue hands in the way that we were used to.

[34:47]

What you need to look for is the smiley face with a plus on it that says reactions. If you go to there, you will find that there is an option for you to raise a hand. So, if you would like to ask a question, please raise your hand through the reactions. Or you can type me a message and I will relay your question. You know, I just have to say, not only is change difficult, but I don't like the idea that they turned this into reactions. But anyway, there you go. Well, and you can go to settings too and change the skin tone of your hand. So, go figure. I do not see this. Penelope, are you trying to ask a question? I'm trying to figure out what you just said.

[35:50]

I can't seem to locate the thing on my computer. So, go ahead. It's probably next to share screen or your chat box. Penelope, do you have a question? No, that's why I don't want to take time. Thank you. I'm going to call on myself. Who is it? Baika. Hi. Hi. Thank you for that. It's so soothing and comforting to be with family today. So, I don't know. I don't have much to say, but thank you for this song. That was beautiful and your talk. And it just feels really good to be here.

[36:51]

So, thank you for that. Thank you for being here. And you were there last night too, right? Yeah, I was. Not for the whole time. And then I was late for Zaza this morning, but that's a whole other story. Sorry. It was wonderful to see you and absolutely family. Yeah. No mistake. No mystery. Just to say, that was kind of, that was the, really the key reason that I wanted to ordain was that I realized I wanted to be in this family. And, you know, we're more and more, we're even in this loss. We are forging family. And so, we really need to take care of each other.

[37:53]

Marybeth, I'm seeing hands. Are you? Now, I'm not hearing you, though. I think she's calling on you, Ed. Go ahead. Thank you. Thank you, Hosan, for your talk. And it's not easy to even talk right now, but what I want to say is that when I think of Sojin, it's not so much his words, but I think about the way he held his teacup. And the way that he folded his napkin on his oreo keyboard.

[39:21]

And how he bowed at the altar. And like you, I, whenever I came in the gate, I was conscious of where he was in his office. That was the first thing that I thought about. So, I'm just sitting with my sentence. Thank you. Thank you. I think it's important to remember, I mean, words are wonderful, and I love words. And when he chose Sojin, Sojin's words could be very precise. But I do think that the true teaching is a body to body teaching.

[40:27]

Yes. And just how he moved, how he bowed, you know, the, just the teaching of meeting him at the door after Zazen, in that bow, meeting face to face. That's really the true teaching, I think. Not that the other isn't true. But I think that's kind of how we learned. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I have some more comments in the chat box. So, I just want to say, if you haven't updated your Zoom yet, it's possible that you still do it the old way. And also, if you're using something different, like an iPad, it may be in a totally different place.

[41:30]

I can't help you there. But I'm also told that you can click on your name if you're in a different operating system under participants, and there you will see the option to raise hands. So, if you can't find the reactions, it's possible it's in those places. So, I'm now going to call on Ross Bloom to lower his hand and ask a question. Lower hand. Thank you for blooming. That's a good one. Thank you, Sojin. Thank you. Hold on. There we go. Great. Just a little history on the titles. When I was studying in New York with Bernie Glassman, we only called him Sensei. There was no Bernie and not even Tetsugan. And when I came out here, I had to adjust to plain old Mel. And we used to call him Sojin Sensei in formal Choson, and that was it.

[42:32]

But mostly, it was just Mel. And I really loved that informality, the seamless quality, the ordinariness of him. And then, for some reason, in 98, when I was Shuzo, we suddenly started calling him Sojin Roshi. And it was not a formal proclamation, but as you said so eloquently in your description of this naming process, it just happened organically. And to me, that really felt like from another place, the embodiment of Roshi. So thank you again for that little bit of history lesson for us. Thank you. Basically, that's how I recall, but I really don't remember what was the threshold there or why. I don't know. But what I like, which we don't use, because we don't use a lot of Japanese titles.

[43:33]

But when I was in Japan with Hoitsu Roshi, and he wasn't Roshi either. This was in 89, I think. The head priest at a temple, even a small temple, is called Hojo-san. Which means Mr. Dharma Hall. And it's very intimate. It just felt, in that context, just right. And I can think of Mel as Hojo-san, even though we don't use his terms. That's nice. Thank you, Hozon. I'd like to give a plug to Ed Herzog and his video work on that Lion's Roar hosting. It's a great 11-minute snippet of our dear, beloved teacher. He's just so alive in that work.

[44:37]

So thank you again, Ed, for that. Karen Dakotas, would you like to unmute yourself? Yes. Hi. Thank you, Hozon. Wonderful to be with everyone. I just wanted to add that I remember, I think it was a morning Shosan, where we started calling him Roshi. Someone had an interchange with him and asked him about it. And then from that day on, I don't remember who it was, but I remember being there. And it was a lovely transition. It wasn't formal, but it was like a lovely moment. And it's a nice memory. So, Roshi. Thank you. I mean, I was very comfortable with that. I mean, he never referred to himself that way. And it's just like, yeah, he's old enough.

[45:41]

He has enough students. You know, he's done enough in this world. Roshi, this makes sense to me. Right. And I like that you said we never refer to ourselves. Someone asked me here up in Bozeman, is it time to start calling you Roshi? Oh, my God. No. I don't know what to say to that, but that happened. Yeah. There you go. I had an exchange in Germany at an event that was an interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. And I was participating in that. And, you know, he greets everybody when he comes on stage. And so he walked up to me. I was wearing my robes. He said, oh, Zen master. And I said, no, Zen mister. I like Mr. Dharmahal.

[46:44]

Thank you again. And lovely to be here. You. OK, now, Karen, Sondheim or Nancy. I just wanted to add to this thread. I remember being at a Saturday lecture. It was around 1984. Planning his trip to Japan to receive Dharma transmissions from Witsu. And this was so new and foreign to all of us. And so he kind of described what was going to happen. And somebody raised their hand and said, does this mean we're going to have to call you Roshi? And everyone burst out laughing. It was like a bunch of giggling children because we it was kind of unheard of for us back then.

[47:50]

And so Mel said, oh, I don't know. I can't remember exactly. I think he said, no, no, I'm still Mel. But I'm not sure. But knowing how little Sojan liked planning, which was not at all. I can see how things just kind of evolved over time, like some people have said just now, Karen. So anyway, I just needed to add that. The only thing that I the only naming thing that I recall him. Saying something about was that at a certain point in formal situations, he wanted to be referred to as Sojan. He wanted to be referred to by his Dharma name, not as Mel. And, you know, that took to some degree and didn't take another degree, you know, but that was not a matter of titles.

[48:58]

That was name. I have a comment from Ellen L. She says to please thank you for the song. And also that she remembers Sojan telling her that things will work themselves out. And now I'm going to ask. Thank you, Ellen. I'm going to ask Kika to ask her question. Thank you for your song. I really appreciate that as well. And I just want to continue on the naming. When I started practice, I knew Sojan only as Sojan Roshi, and I was very awestruck by him. And so I would very formally say it all the time. And then during a Doan training, he he was talking to someone else.

[50:01]

But I sensed he was talking to me when he just say, you know, just just say, hey, hey, Mel. Hey, Mel. So I started doing that. It was it felt very stiff. Hey, Mel, you know, but then I got into the hang of it and I started. It was kind of an ongoing little bit of a joke because I did. I did start doing that. And sometimes at the inappropriate time, like you say, he did want to be called Sojan. And but one of the last times I saw him, I just softly said, hey, Mel. Very meaningful. Thank you. We all have our own. Each of us has our own. Intimacy. With him and with ourselves and with others. There's. They're all right. They're all correct. Thank you.

[51:14]

Are there any of the any people who don't usually speak, who would like to say something or ask a question? Ellen Webb, I invite you to unmute yourself and ask your question. Hi, Ellen. Hey, where are you? I'm back in Berkeley now. You're back in Berkeley? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, good. So thank you. Also, I like your song a lot and I like to talk. I just want to say that my family knew Mel when I was, you know, kind of young in my teens and early 20s and always referred to him as Mel. And then when I started practicing in 1992, you know, and from then to really, you know, now I've never really known what to call.

[52:28]

You know, I just never you know, when I saw him, I just never knew what to call him. And I never worried about it. I don't think he did either. But I was always slightly confused. I just shared that. Thank you. You know, he was not as everybody knows. He did not stand on formalities. He wanted respect, but that but respect could take, you know, could have any name. I think depends on what the energy in it is or was. So I really appreciate it. I mean, is. To me, there's something about. Ordinariness. That's really precious. I think this is also part of how I came to practice was reading Chinese and Japanese poetry and seeing how there was a luminous quality in things that were ordinary and the people that I've met, a number of people I've met who were very prominent teachers.

[53:48]

I felt their their ordinariness, you know, as opposed to other teachers who. You should excuse me, seem to cultivate their charisma. And. You know, I just. That's what one thing I loved about him was that ordinariness, which is very precious. Yeah, and people, you know, speak of it a lot. It's a little worrisome to me that, you know, as he, you know, has passed on that he will become special or and special or, you know, well, we, you know. I think we just have to wait and see, but. How do we.

[54:48]

Be careful about the canonization and the objectification, and I think some of it is just inevitable. But I think there's in our community where we've had daily contact with him, we see it's a real person. Who was. As somebody wrote to me. Who is. Perfectly himself. But not necessarily perfect. Emily has a question in the chat. She wants to know the meaning of Sojourn's name. Yes. Hakuryu means white dragon. And. I'm blocking on Sojourn. Somebody knows. Was in my.

[55:52]

Is it essence of purity? Essence of purity. That's what it is. Yeah. So it's white dragon Hakuryu and essence of purity. And the Sojourn part of that name was given to him by Suzuki Roshi. And he only received one name, which is not so unusual. And the second name was given to him at Dharma Transmission by Oitsu Suzuki Roshi. But his official Dharma name, your Dharma name is is usually you're the second one of those names. So Sojourn is his official Dharma name. And as far as I know, I need to talk to Akiba Roshi, you know, because there's a whole other deal with posthumous names. But. I. I need to find out. If there is one, how that happens, you know, to see.

[56:59]

I actually talk to Akiba Roshi and Rabin. Explore that, but. It's not so important to me, but I like I like knowing. What the tradition is, and then you can decide whether to take it up or not. Who is on there, about six people with hands raised. Do you want to answer any of those? Let's be brief. And I'm OK. But that's it. OK, Peter, would you unmute yourself and ask your question? Sure. Thank you for that song. And I feel in alignment with the sentiments expressed. But I'm also surprised how challenged I am. I've been thinking about about this topic recently. I'm challenged by the suggestion of let the mystery be. It doesn't seem like it's a really easy thing, even though it kind of rolls off the tongue.

[58:01]

I don't think you have a choice. You know, you can think about it all you want. Yeah, but but you're not going to figure it out. Yeah. Still, we will go through it, whatever it is. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Peter. Thank you for being there all these years. So, you know, while there were before there were any other priests here, when Sochi would go away. Peter would sort of mysteriously show up in the Zindo and carry the position of being a priest before. Meili and I or anyone was was ordained. And I always remembered that. It's really important to me. Susan Marvin, would you unmute yourself and ask your question?

[59:04]

Can you hear me? It's not a question. I just had a quick story. I think it was about 25 years ago and I was practicing as the pen zone. And it was one of those potlucks where after evening Zazen, people would line up to come in to make their plates. And I was greeting people as they came into the kitchen. And Zazen was at the end of the line. And when I greeted him, he leaned over and said, you know, in Japan, the teacher is always at the head of the line. But here nobody respects the teacher. So I said, well, and I took his hand and I said, come on. And I brought him up to the head of the line. And he had this big smile on his face as he kind of cut in line. So about two years ago, I guess, when Lori and Leslie and I became to share that position as Kenzo, we had a potluck. And there he was at the end of the line.

[60:13]

I said, you want to come up to the front of the line? He said, no, no, I'm really comfortable here. Thank you. Blake, would you like to unmute yourself and ask your question? Sure. Thank you, Mary Beth. Hozan Sensei, I believe you were speaking about Kategiri Roshi and giving a lecture about the afterlife. And he said, well, I believe and you don't believe. Could you clarify what he meant by that? Yeah, I mean, he is theological ground was in the territory of rebirth. That was his understanding of Buddhism. And, you know, for in. In a number of traditions of Buddhism, that would be a requirement.

[61:19]

You know, you would necessarily believe in rebirth if you didn't believe in rebirth. Then, you know, why would you call yourself a Buddhist? This is a big theological debate that's been going on among sects for years. And I think what he was talking about, talking to was, you know, North Americans who are not grounded in that way of looking at things. It certainly included me. You know, so that's what he meant. Sue Moon, would you unmute yourself and ask your question? Thank you. Thank you, Alan. Favorite song. Also not a question. Two quick things. One is Hakuin, the great Zen master, a student asked him, where do you go after you die?

[62:24]

And Hakuin said, I don't know. And the student said, what do you mean you don't know? You're a Zen master. And Hakuin said, yes, but not a dead one. So the other thing I wanted to say about Mel Sojin was a memory just of the kind of ordinary person who did care a lot about doing things. He didn't stand on ceremony, but he cared about doing things properly and carefully. And that was something I respected and learned from. And I remember back in the day when I used to be in Río and sometimes I would be hitting the mokugyo and he'd be standing up at the altar doing the bows and things and tapping his foot. And all of a sudden he'd start tapping his foot to get me to get on to the right rhythm because I was going too slow or too fast or something. Oh, no, no. Anyway, it was he was just very it was a very quiet form of correction, which I appreciated.

[63:28]

Good. I'm glad you appreciated it. Many of us have experienced that. I didn't always think he was right. Sometimes I thought, no, I'm on the right. But just to reiterate something that Ellen Chang said yesterday, I mean, I think that his care for things could be articulated as basically don't treat anything or anyone like an object. You know, and that's the kind of formality of unformality. You know, thank you. Randy or Charlie, do you want to unmute yourself and ask a question? Yes. Thank you. Very good. Thank you. Charlie and I were married by Sojin Roshi.

[64:32]

And so today I was looking at our photo album. And what I'm wondering if down the line, like there's some wonderful pictures in there. Like we gave a gift to Sojin Roshi, a little bonsai in a bag, and he's holding it up and grinning. And then there are pictures of him during the ceremony. Very ordinary, but, you know, very familiar to all of us. And I wonder, I don't know if Ed is still there. I wonder if at some point we're going to have the Ken Burns version of the photo album. You know, like, I think that would be really significant. I guess another photo is of lay ordination that I have. And that's precious, too. So I really value those documents. And I think other people would enjoy them. And I'd be happy to share them with people.

[65:34]

Thank you. There are thousands of photographs. And presumably at some point when we have the means to do it, they're going to all we want to scan them all. And they will be part of the archive that's going to Stanford and will be all then accessible to everybody. But it's a really big project that somebody has to take on. And but we've been talking about the archive committee has been talking about this. And it's, you know, it's right up there as things that we want to do. So, yeah. I just have two quick comments. Before you announced the song, Hosan, I thought you were going to sing You Are My Sunshine. But then I then I knew that the song was to be something else.

[66:37]

But the words of You Are My Sunshine kept running in my head while you were playing a different song. And I want to say one other thing. Ronnie was talking about our marriage. And I went to Sojan in Dokasan and I asked him to marry us in the Zendo. And he says, I don't think so. I don't believe in marriage. They don't last very long. And I said, well, we're going to be married one way or the other. And we'd like you to officiate. And he said, all right. My fee is $200. And when do you want it? And we gave him a date and away we went. So the more things change, the more things stay the same. Yeah, that's right. And then he didn't come to the ceremony because he had some event planned after.

[67:40]

The reception. He didn't come to the reception because he had some event planned after, you know, at the Zen Center. Thank you. I'm not going to sing it now. But the other really relevant song is Que Sera, Sera. Very good. Whatever will be, will be. So is that everyone on the list? Yes, it is. Good. Well, thank you very much. And let's enjoy. I'm sorry. Was that you, Filani? Yeah, I said I wanted to say one thing. I have a few things, but just maybe one thing. OK, that's fine. All right. I just wanted to. Oh, I'm not showing myself. I just wanted to say one time at the Zendo in the community room, Sojin was having a meeting with.

[68:48]

I think we've lost her. Now I want to hear. Are you there, Filani? I am here. OK, I'm here. OK, he wanted to tell me about the name Filani that he had learned about it. And I already knew and I had to pretend I didn't know. I just listened and I just kept listening. And so anyway, I just wanted to say that. Yeah, that's what I wanted to say. That's all. I mean, I have other stories, but I'll talk about that another time. Very kind of you to listen. I had to think about it first. I said, you know what? Maybe I should just shut up and listen. I did. OK. All right. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you all. And let's enjoy the rest of our day of sitting.

[69:56]

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