Last Sunday, after Sashin was over, we had lay ordination for three people. Sometimes lay ordination is called jukai, which means taking precepts, giving and receiving precepts. And it's also called tokudo. Tokudo, jukai means giving and receiving precepts. Tokudo means ordination. And we have lay ordination and priest ordination. lay ordination is called zaikei tokudo and priest ordination is called shukei tokudo.

[01:06]

Zaikei means to be ordained while living at home and shukei tokudo means being ordained and leaving home. So, one is called lay ordination, the other is called priest ordination. Strictly speaking, when you have priest ordination, you should be free of everything. But it's very rare that we have that kind of ordination. Although we have priest ordination, which is shukke tokudo, The priests don't live as single monks, except when we have training in a monastery.

[02:12]

So at that time, both lay people and priests live together like monks. they both leave home and live together as monks. So our particular school, in our particular school, both lay people and priests live in somewhat the same way. But there is some difference. So we might ask, well, what's the difference then? There is some difference. When we have both lay ordination and priest ordination, the precepts are almost the same.

[03:26]

The precepts actually are the same. The ceremony is somewhat different, but very close. Lay people, lay ordination, when a person receives lay ordination, their life doesn't really change so much outwardly. It's actually being ordained into the Buddhist order. And you practice as a person living at home in the world. And when you have priest ordination, even though you may be living at home and acting in the world, you wear robes, shave the head and wear robes, and your practice comes from the side of being a priest.

[04:35]

So a priest in our order is someone who dedicates their life to the practice. taking care of the practice as their life work. Whereas a layperson, although their life is dedicated to the practice, it's in a broader sense facing the world and in a more anonymous way, whereas a priest faces the world in a more visible way and is responsible, takes responsibility for the continuation of the practice and for helping people to practice.

[05:47]

That should be a priest's major role. is making it possible for others to practice, to develop your own way and to maintain the practice for others. So whether one is married or single or has a family or not is incidental to that work. In the past, It's been... a priest was more like a monk, and would be celibate, and really leave home. And there's a very good reason for doing that, actually. If you are a priest, and if you're a married priest, you'll understand why that's actually very helpful.

[06:50]

A priest's life should be constantly focused on the Dharma and the students and seeing that the practice works, whatever practice they're involved in. So a married priest has to include family practice as part of that, part of the whole practice, which is very good, actually, because it gives a priest the experience that laypeople have to deal with. So, if a priest is married, they understand the difficulties of family life and the problems of family life. And it makes it easier in some ways to deal with that for other people.

[07:58]

But there are pros and cons to each side. But lay ordination is actually ordination in the same way both priests and lay people take the same precepts in ordination. So it's not necessary always for someone who wants to be ordained to be ordained as a priest. It's much more difficult actually to maintain the life of a priest. Many times people feel very inspired in the practice and want to be ordained as priests. But it's important, I think, to understand that being ordained as a layperson is just as valid.

[09:12]

Sometimes people feel it's not as valid. You know, we see priests in their robes, and we think, well, that's the real life, you know, the real Zen life. But actually, lay ordination is correct ordination for a lay person. As someone who has lay ordination, your life is validated as Buddhist and you can teach Buddhism as a layperson and you can inspire people, you can practice just in the same way as a priest

[10:15]

But you don't have to feel the pressure or the responsibility of a priest. And you face more toward the world. And you take your practice into the world. Reason for ordination, you know, is not to put something extra onto yourself. Buddhism or Buddhadharma is something that comes from within ourself. It's not something that we stick onto ourself. So, ordination just recognizes what our life is really about. already.

[11:17]

If you are practicing for a while as in a sincere way, sincere steady way, then ordination is just an acknowledgment of your practice. It's an acknowledgment of your Buddha nature, because Practice comes from within, and then ordination is just acknowledgment. And if a person is practicing as a priest, then priest ordination is just an acknowledgment of what you're already doing, of who you actually are. So there shouldn't need to be any mistakes. But sometimes we get the feeling that lay ordination is not enough.

[12:34]

But my feeling is that we should respect our lay ordination more than we do, because it's more usual to have lay ordination than it is to have priest ordination. We tend to feel that it's not quite as high, but sometimes lay people practice as priests and sometimes priests practice as lay people. That's really true. And sometimes it's really hard to tell the difference. But even though they overlap and there's still some distinction. And the distinction is in the commitment.

[13:55]

Both lay ordination, people who have lay ordination, people who have priest ordination, are both committed to the practice, but they're committed in a different way, different ways. I think for a layperson, the commitment is very deep, but the obligation is not the same. Whereas for a priest, the commitment is the same, but the obligation is deeper. If one person becomes a priest, it should be that it's a time in their life when they have nothing else in the world to accomplish. If someone wants to become a priest, they should realize there's nothing in the world left to accomplish except to help people to practice Buddhism.

[15:12]

You shouldn't have any personal goals anymore. You shouldn't want to be a fireman. Whereas as a layperson, you can be ordained and still pursue worldly goals. So I think that is a kind of dividing line. A priest really has no worldly goals left to accomplish. So both priests and laypeople should be able to live together in harmony. knowing how they work together and what the difference is.

[16:20]

And it's not always clear. It's not always clear cut. And as I say, the definitions are not always so defined. So they kind of overlap a lot, which is all right. A priest, I think, also should be able to at some point, not appear so visible as a priest, and just wander in the world, appearing as a layperson. I think that's all right. But at the same time, the priest should never forget that they're a priest. So, we're always moving in different ways and taking on different roles, different circumstances. There are different roles according to circumstances.

[17:25]

But we should never forget what our true career is. So for a priest, being a priest is like a career. And for a layperson, being ordained is like establishing yourself in reality and expressing that in your daily life. So that's really the same for both. But layperson establishes themselves on reality and expresses it in their daily life as a layperson. Priest expresses it as a priest. So we should have great respect and realize the dignity of lay ordination and not think of it as some lesser thing.

[18:49]

And if you have lay ordination, you should respect it as the truth of your life. When we take 16 precepts, the first three precepts are to take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. The refuges are the first of the 16. But refuge doesn't mean to go and hide. Refuge means to return to yourself. So refuge isn't necessarily the best word to use. You can say to return to Buddha, return to Dharma, return to Sangha. Or you can say to be one with Buddha, one with Dharma, one with Sangha.

[19:57]

That's refuge. It means to take refuge in your true self or to return to your true self. or be one with the universe. So the three refuges are the fountainhead of the precepts. And the first one, be Buddha. or be one with Buddha, or return to your true Self, is the one fundamental precept. And all the rest of the precepts proceed out of that one precept. So, if you have no other precepts than the first one,

[21:02]

If you really understand the first precept, then you can make up your own precepts. As a matter of fact, you should be making up your own precepts. We say we have 16, but 16 is just the basis. to be one with Buddha, how do you do that? That's first precept is great koan. How do we be one with Buddha? If you keep that in mind all the time, then the precepts will proceed from you. which actually is what precepts are anyway. Precepts is our own inner desire or inner expression of our life.

[22:14]

Sometimes it looks like precepts are something imposed on us. The ten prohibitory precepts, don't do this, don't do that, looks like Ten Commandments, but actually it's our own request as expressed in words. The problem is that it's very difficult for us to maintain our own request. It's very difficult for us to maintain perfectly our ideal life. So first is be Buddha, be Dharma is second, and be one with Sangha is third. Be one with Buddha is the fundamental.

[23:17]

And be one with Dharma. Dharma is the law, not the law of man-made law necessarily, but a universal law. The law of the way things are. So, to be in harmony with reality is dharma. Return to harmony with reality. That's to be one with dharma. to be one with Sangha is to return to our oneness with all living things. And then there are the three pure precepts to avoid evil, to do what is correct.

[24:50]

You can state the three precepts in various ways, and there are many ways to say them, but basically it's don't do evil, do good, and Do what is right for others. Always take others into consideration in your life. Or actually, as a bodhisattva, it's the precept of helping others or saving others. before you save yourself. So these three pure precepts are a kind of broad guideline.

[25:51]

And then The Ten Prohibitory Precepts, sometimes called the Ten Grave Precepts, I call them the Ten Specific Precepts, are not to take life willfully, not to steal, not to take what's not given. And not to misuse sexuality. And not to sell or take dope or wine or intoxicants. And not to slander others. and not to praise yourself at the expense of others, and not to be avaricious or to withhold, but to be generous, and not to harbor ill will or anger, and not to abuse your true nature, which is

[27:21]

Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, the three treasures. So, the end reflects the beginning. So, there are many ways to understand precepts. You can understand them quite literally or you can understand them in a very broad, non-dualistic way. And then we must act through our understanding. So-called Hinayana way is to view the precepts literally. When it says, don't kill, you don't kill anything. But actually, it's impossible not to kill anything, because everything in the world is killing and being killed.

[28:24]

Continually killing and being killed. So this, how do you not take life, is a good problem. So, on the level of non-duality, or Buddha nature, it's impossible not to kill. Even if you chop up everything in the world into little fine bits, it's impossible to kill. This is from the point of view of the reality of non-duality. from the point of view of the reality of non-duality that nothing can be killed and from the point of view of don't kill anything, how do you act?

[29:34]

So, Bodhisattva way of acting is in every situation you have to understand both sides and then do something. This is called Middle Way. Not just to take the middle, but to act in a way that is real on the one hand and compassionate on the other. to see the reality through one eye, and to see the compassion with the other eye, and to act with one eye.

[30:55]

So precepts is not something fixed. It's not like there's some fixed way to act in every situation. You have to decide what is the right way to act in every situation. And every situation is different. So precept has to come forth out of you. It's not something you can't depend on the rules. the rules are very helpful, but you can't depend on the rules. If you just depend on the rules, you'll fall into the black pit, the black dragon pit. And if you just try to understand that there are no rules,

[32:06]

you'll fall into the black dragon's pit. So, how do we act in accord with reality? To be in harmony with reality and compassion without any formula, without any fixed formula. So whether you're a priest or layperson, we have this problem. And we all work together in the realm of reality. A layperson dealing with their life in the world,

[33:09]

and a priest taking care of the practice, which is also living in the world. But a priest has a certain function. But you don't need to be a priest in order to practice. So you might say that a priest is a kind of layperson priest with the emphasis on priest. And a layperson is kind of a layperson priest with the emphasis on layperson. Do you have any questions?

[34:26]

Ah, that's a good point. When you practice here, it's not necessary to think of yourself as a Buddhist. you don't have to have some kind of ordination or even think that you're Buddhist, particularly. You don't have to label yourself. But at the same time, when you practice here, because there's such a strong Buddhist influence, pretty hard to maintain a practice without eventually succumbing to feeling like you're a Buddhist. I remember when Suzuki Roshi, when I practiced with Suzuki Roshi, he never did expect people to become Buddhists

[36:01]

It was never mentioned particularly that we were all Buddhists or something like that. So, feeling like you're a Buddhist is something that comes from you. It's not something that, again, that somebody imposes on you. Anyway, being a Buddhist is just recognizing your own reality. So everyone is welcome to practice, but I think it wouldn't be so good if people started imposing some other kinds of practice, or trying to force, you know, impose something else on the practice, any more than we try to impose Buddhism on the practice. I appreciate the points that you've been making, but I nevertheless have noticed that there is quite a hierarchy within our department.

[37:21]

And although it's not so apparent here in Berkeley, it is more apparent in San Francisco and in Tassajara, where there is a certain kind of unspoken, but everybody gets it pretty quickly, status to various levels. I had that experience, particularly this most recent visit to Tassajara, when I had your brown rocket, and I suddenly was quite an object of interest to a lot of people, who thought that I had some special something with the rabbit. Which I didn't dissuade them from thinking. But it's quite interesting. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that. I certainly hear from the people who are high in the hierarchy, there is no hierarchy. No, nobody said there's no hierarchy. But they say that there's no difference, really. There's no difference, but there's hierarchy.

[38:24]

Right, right. And I'm wondering, that comes partly from the Japanese, I think. No, it's not Japanese. Or maybe it's just American. In Buddhism, the difference between monks and laypeople has been very distinct. uh... and traditionally the monks the monks work is to do the practice and the lay people support the monks to do the practice and the monks are always exalted because they're not doing anything worldly so this is traditional buddhism traditional buddhism the monks are If this is a traditional Buddhist place, the monks would be sitting on the tans and the lay people would be sitting on the floor. And so, you know, this is... that's traditional.

[39:30]

And then among the monks there's a kind of hierarchy, you know, which a lot of it has to do with time spent in the order and so forth. And just like any other place, you know, you work in a hospital, right? Yeah, well, it's very similar, actually, to a chief executive officer or a head physician at Kaiser who walks by. It's the same feeling as being in Tampara when the, you know... Right. So a human... A monk walks by. I mean, it's a different context, but it's a similar... Right. So in our practice, we don't really have that. We have, there is distinction, but it's not nearly the distinction, the traditional distinction. We have more of a flowing between priests and laypeople. Less hierarchy, but that doesn't mean no hierarchy, because if you don't have any hierarchy, then who do you turn to?

[40:35]

So, in every kind of organization, whether it's plants, animals, minerals, water, air, fire, earth, there's hierarchy. It's just the way things are. There's the vertical and the horizontal. Horizontally, everything is the same. Our practice is to realize that everything is the same. And we all haven't realized that yet. But on the other hand, everything is different. Each thing is unique and different. And one thing is on the bottom, and the next thing is next to that on top, and so forth. So that's vertical.

[41:38]

Verticality is called hierarchy. One thing is higher than another on the scale. And if you want to take away hierarchy, all you have left is verticality. Very boring. Right? This is called rest. And in rest, horizontally, we're all the same. Really, there's no distinction. And we need to meet each other in that way. But we also have to recognize and respect the verticality of our positions. Yes, is it ever permissible to willfully take a human life, and if so, why? Not willfully. Sometimes we have to kill human life. Sometimes it's necessary, but willfully, never. But what we mean by willfully is because I want to, or something like that.

[42:40]

Sometimes it's necessary, but should be avoided. at all costs. But nothing is never, you know. So, why do you ask that question? I ask the question because of the ambiguity of the question of killing, as you put it, the falling into the pit of the black dragon. regardless of which way you go. I see. I don't know what the middle way is. Right. The middle way is that each situation has to be weighed in order to be acted upon. Sometimes we just act literally, do something literally, but no, it's not always that way.

[43:49]

So, if we know both extremes, then we know how to be in the middle. So, sometimes it's necessary to, even though the precept says don't lie, sometimes we have to lie. Right? If the policeman, I mean if... The policeman's chasing you, looking for somebody who you know shouldn't be apprehended. You don't say, you say, no, he went that way, instead of, no, he's hiding in the basement. In that Monday class, we were talking about that and another has more meaning to a do not murder.

[44:52]

There's a real act in that pleasure of seeking that's personal that goes so far beyond everyday killing just to necessity. There's pleasure, identity associated with it. Yeah. These are difficult questions, but I think that the precept, you know, is to avoid that, to avoid doing something willfully, taking life willfully. But when we kill the flies, you know,

[45:53]

To a certain extent, you can let the mosquitoes bite you. To a certain extent, you can do that. But there's a limit, and then you have to apologize and swat them. With ants, I use ant powder. Ant powder is the old way. But it's the most effective. Much better than the sprays and stuff they have on the market now, but you can get it at Ace Hardware. It's very old-fashioned. And you just sprinkle a little ant powder, and the first few ants will come and sacrifice themselves. But then, after a few minutes, there will never be another ant come anywhere near Pretty good.

[46:56]

But I don't like to do that, but I don't know any other way. Sometimes I let the ants walk through, and there's a wonderful trail going all the way through the house of ants, and you just step over it. They don't deviate. They don't go anyplace else. They're just going somewhere, you know? And that's fine. You know, live and let live, right? So... Anyway, this is a good place to end. Thank you very much.

[47:28]

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