Good morning, everyone. Can you hear me? I can hear you, can see you. For those who might be new, I'm Taigen Layton, the Guiding Dharma teacher at Ancient Dragons Zen Gate. Welcome, everyone. I've been speaking in the last month and will continue in the next month, speaking about the 10 paramitas, is sometimes translated as transcendent practices. I think a better translation is liberative practices. These paramita means to carry a cross to the other shore. So these are practices which help liberate beings and awaken beings and relieve suffering. So just as a review, the 10 are generosity, ethics, patience, energy or enthusiasm, samadhi or meditative stability, prajnaparamita, the perfection of wisdom, it's often translated as, and then skillful means, vow, powers, and today I'm going to speak by request about jnana paramita, knowledge.

[01:24]

So knowledge is different from wisdom. We we sometimes think of wisdom as involving a lot of learning and study and knowing a lot of things. But the Paramitas, these liberative practices, makes a distinction between wisdom and knowing. And again, the first six are often presented as a group, ending with Prajnaparamita, the perfection of wisdom or the practice of wisdom. But knowledge is a separate one. And that's kind of interesting. So prashna paramita, prashna might be better translated as insight. It's not wisdom based on a lot of book learning or study or knowing a lot of stuff.

[02:27]

It's this kind of immediate intuitive insight. seeing into, so seeing is part of prajna, seeing into what is immediately in front of us in all the situations of our life and the world. That's different from jnana or knowledge. David Ray, this is, jnana is etymologically related to the Greek word gnosis, G-N-O-S-I-S. How would you translate gnosis? Well, it means all the kinds of knowledge, you know, it's come to mean that mystical kind of knowledge, but in Greek, it's just all the things that, it's also the same as the English word, know. Good, to know. So that's what I want to talk about today, the practice of knowing, as opposed to the practice of wisdom or insight. So traditionally in early Buddhism, this referred to the Buddha's knowledges.

[03:31]

the Buddha's knowledge of minds and thoughts of all of his followers and also knowledge of all of their past lives and knowledge of all their future lives. So the Paramitas are different depending on Buddha's Jabodisattvas. So the Buddha's practice of Paramitas is having super knowledges, having super patience, super ethical conduct, super generosity. But these are also bodhisattva practices, which is to say practices for all of us bodhisattva practitioners, which is all of us. So what does it mean for us to do these practices? And many sutras For example, the Avatamsaka Flower Ornament Sutra talk about it this way. So the point is, how do we use our knowledge?

[04:43]

How do we use our knowledge to benefit beings, to support awakening, to help relieve suffering? So it's not about having ultimate knowledge. It's not about knowing what the stock market's gonna look like tomorrow. It's not about, well, to know where all of you are, I happen to know that there are people here from California, at least a couple, Ohio, Wisconsin, And, you know, on Zoom, we can see each, for those of us who are visible on Zoom, we can see each other's space. So, you know, that's a kind of knowledge. But this is more about how do we use knowledge? Or we could say it's about know-how. So there are, so many of you have great knowledge sets.

[05:48]

I can see some of you who know a lot about healing, about friendship, about many things, about the mind in terms of modern Western psychology. How, but the point isn't, you know, I mean, and partly we're encouraged by our educational systems to know more and more. So, when we know things, how do we use that? How do we use that? You know, we could say at the service of prashna, of wisdom or insight, or at the service of helping to support awakening, helping to encourage practice, helping to encourage awareness and kindness and to help relieve suffering. So the point isn't just to know lots of stuff. but how do we take care of situations?

[06:52]

How do we take care of material objects? How do we take care of events using the knowledge we have? And, you know, I can see that there's a lot of very knowledgeable people here. So what are we, how do we develop our knowledge? How do we use it? So it's not the same as understanding. Of course, it's okay if you understand things, and part of Jnana Paramita is to know and understand many things. But the goal of our practice is not understanding. Of course, understanding may be helpful. But it's not about, you know, for example, understanding all the Buddha Sutras or understanding all the ways in which our technological systems work.

[07:56]

It's okay if that happens. In fact, it can be helpful. How do we use that to help each other? So that's what this knowledge is about. It's okay if you understand. But the point is, how do we share and spread awakening? How do we relieve suffering? That's the goal, period. And we can use all of these practices, these 10 practices, in the service of that. So, I would translate it more as know-how. How do we know how things work? How do we know how situations can be helped? How do we know how to take care of our zendo and our practice and our connections? And then how do we use that? So this again, this practice of jnana is

[09:00]

Different from prajna, there's an overlap, of course. So prajnaparamita, this liberative practice of insider wisdom, is often conflated with knowledge. So the great Bodhisattva of wisdom, Prajna is Manjushri, and students in schools in East Asia will call on Manjushri to help them pass tests, for example, which is maybe more a matter of knowledge. So there's an overlap, of course. and it takes some wisdom to know how to use our know-how to be helpful. So all of these 10 have a lot of overlaps. This knowledge is related to skillful means. How do we know How do we know how to be skillful? I'll be talking about skillful means sometime in the next month.

[10:05]

Skillful means is important. And it's not about knowing perfectly how to be helpful or skillful in supporting awakening and supporting the relief of suffering, but knowledge helps that. So there's a lot of connections between these different practices. I talked last week about patience, and of course, patience supports knowledge and wisdom and vice versa. Generosity, how do we know, what is generousness in a particular situation? How do we know how to receive generosity? So, uh knowing and book learning even and study you know this is all in the province of Nyanaparamita but the point isn't just to accumulate knowledge of lots of stuff the point is how do we use it how do we use our knowledge to help beings so um uh

[11:13]

I'm interested in discussions about how you see knowledge and knowing and the helpfulness of knowledge and knowing. But I want to tell a couple of old Zen stories that are related to this. One of the great classical teachers in Chan or Zen is Fayan, Hogen in Japanese. And he once went to his teacher and said, I'm about to go out on pilgrimage. And his teacher said, you know, in pilgrimage is what a practice that was part of the tradition, that when a practitioner had studied, worked, practiced for a while with their teacher, they would go off and wander around. And in China, that meant walking around to different temples, to different mountains, to see different teachers to help develop

[12:14]

their knowledge and wisdom. So this kind of pilgrimage was a common practice. And this actually, you know, was a practice in Japan and it's a practice here in America. I see many of you who have practiced with other teachers or in other traditions, and that's great. That's, that supports both wisdom and knowledge. Anyway, Fayen said, I'm going off on pilgrimage. And his teacher said, what's the purpose of your pilgrimage? And Fa Yuan said, I don't know. And his teacher said, not knowing is nearest, or not knowing is most intimate. So there's a lot of Zen. where not knowing is kind of emphasized, contrary to this jnana-paramita, this liberative practice of knowledge. For example, Sung San Sunim, who was a great Korean teacher who came to America, and we have people in our sangha who've studied with Sung San Sunim or in his lineage, his slogan was, only don't know.

[13:28]

So this is kind of helpful in terms of our Western priority of accumulating knowledge, knowing how to do lots of things. that also brings more reward and merit and increased reputation and so forth. So, you know, we're kind of trained to know a lot of things, or we're encouraged to know a lot of things, to get good grades in school and so forth, or to know many kinds of activities. and crafts and so forth. But in Zen, there's this emphasis on not knowing. However, I want to tell another story, which you've probably all heard, or many of you have heard, that undercuts this. So this is a story about the great Chan master Zhao Zhou. So Zhaozhong never founded a school.

[14:31]

Fayan founded one of the five houses of Chan, one of the five early lineages of Chan Buddhism in China. Zhaozhong never did because his lineage, his teaching was so great that none of his disciples could really go beyond it and master it. So his lineage died out, but he's actually part of all the Zen lineages. So, Zhao Zhou, this is a story about when Zhao Zhou was just a student. before he became a great master. And he lived to be 120. It's verified historically. So he had a lot of time to teach. But when he was a student, he studied with another great master called Nanshuan or Nansen. Jiaozhou in Japanese is Joshu. Some of you may have heard of him by that name. Anyway, this is a story that we talk about a lot. Jiaozhou went to his teacher Nanshuan and said, what is the way?

[15:32]

What is the Tao? So Tao is the word for Taoism, a great spiritual tradition in China, but it's also used as a kind of metaphor for, or a synonym for awakening. in the Buddhist tradition. So the way implies some path, way can be translated as a path. And so how, you know, what is the way? What is the path? How do I awaken? This is a basic question. And Nanshuan said, everyday mind, ordinary mind is the way. So, nothing special, as Suzuki Roshi said, just ordinary everyday mind is the way. Oh, Jao Zhou thought, well then, he said, well, how do I get to that?

[16:37]

How do I approach it? He was a good student. He wanted to know, you know, he wanted to know how to get to ordinary everyday mind. And Nanchuan said, and again, I know many of you have heard this story before, but Nanchuan said, the more you try and approach it, the further away you get. So this is in line with our Soto tradition of not trying to achieve or gain or gain merit or get material goods. Our tradition is, radically contrary to consumerism and trying to gain and gain and gain lots of stuff spiritually or materially. Anyway, Nan Chuan said, the more you try and approach it, the more you try and get ahold of it, the further away you get.

[17:38]

And Zhao Zhou, again, a great teacher and a great student, he said, well, then how do I know if it's the way or not? He said, how do I know if it's the way or not? And Nanshuan then provided a critique of knowing and not knowing. He said, Nanshuan responded, knowing is just a kind of illusion. Not knowing is kind of indifference or can be. or not caring. So knowing is an illusion, even when we know lots of stuff. And there are, again, there are people here today who know many things about, you know, some areas of life. But part of this not knowing is an illusion is that there's a limitation to what we can know.

[18:40]

there are physical limitations, limitations of human awareness, of human intelligence, of human knowing. So knowing is kind of an illusion, but not knowing it can be just indifference or not caring. Then Nanchuan went on to say, if you reach, when you reach the true way beyond doubt, the true Tao, beyond doubt, It is vast and open as the sky. How could it be a matter of affirming or negating anything? So this question of knowledge, of knowing things is kind of subtle. It's not a matter of just accumulating knowledge about how many books you've read or whatever, you know. And again, it's not a bad thing to know a lot about something or many things, but it's not the point.

[19:42]

It's not the point of our practice and accumulating great wisdom is not the point of our practice either. I would say the point of our practice is just how do we share this wisdom, which comes from all 10 of these liberative practices? How do we help beings to awaken? How do we help beings to help other beings to awaken? How do we relieve suffering in the world and in our own lives and in our Sangha and so forth? So what's the point? What's the purpose? What is the meaning of knowing? What is the meaning of wisdom? What's the meaning of generosity? How do we, what is our intention for giving and receiving? This is the point. So, You know, I was talking about the difference between. Buddha's practice of paramitas and bodhisattva practice.

[20:44]

This practice of knowledge is very similar in that way to the ninth practice, so nana is the 10th, which is bala or powers. And for Buddhas, this refers to power of seeing all things, the power of escaping from suffering and samsara, the power of helping to awaken beings and so forth. But as Bodhisattva practices, as a practice that we do as Bodhisattva practitioners, the practice of power is how do we raise our abilities. So each of you has things you know, each of you has abilities that you have, how do you use those for the benefit of all beings? So this 10th practice in Jnana is very similar in that way to the practice of Bala or powers.

[21:45]

So You know, sometimes people think if they read a lot of Buddhist texts or they go to a lot of Buddhist lectures or talks or whatever, that then they will become awakened. And Prajnaparamita, the practice of insight and wisdom, which in some ways is the ultimate of these 10, is about how do we just see what is here in front of us? How do we see who we are? How do we see how it feels? How does it feel to be who you are? As we sit in Zazen, we settle into the self that we imagine we are, the self that we are, that is connected to all self, to all being, how do we use that? It's not a, so this goes back to skillful means. How do we support awakening?

[22:48]

How do we support kindness? How do we share that together? How do we support Sangha? So knowing about that is the ultimate knowledge, actually. Knowing about how to use knowledge is really the ultimate transcendent liberative knowledge. So it may be very helpful if you know many things, if you know a lot about healing, or if you know a lot about kindness or compassion, or if you know a lot about many things that many of you do know. But anyway, what's the point? How do we use this? So that is the question underlying it. So maybe that's as much as I need to say about this. I don't know, but I'm interested in hearing your responses, your reflections, your considerations of knowledge and how it works and what it means.

[23:57]

How do we use it and so forth? So comments, questions, reflections, please feel free. So David Ray, would you help me call on people online or in the room at Lincoln Square? Yes, indeed. Joanne has her hand up, I think. Good morning. Hi, Joanne. I think for many years confused beliefs as knowledge. And I've been learning to differentiate those. And it's tricky. It's very tricky. The things we learn through life and the things we learn in traditional cultural ways that are called knowledge.

[24:59]

And how do we find our own truth? Truth is probably different for each of us. But most of the time, it's realizing we don't know. And just observing what's happening around us in the moment. And also figuring out if you want to participate in what's going on in the moment and how. And deciding how to use your words and speak your truth for the benefit of others. It's a practice. Yes, thank you, very good, yes. So belief, part of knowledge is to know the beliefs we have.

[26:02]

Part of our practice is, you know, so there are beliefs we have that we know what they are, but I think we have a lot of Unconscious beliefs too. We have a lot of assumptions about reality and truth that we aren't necessarily clear about. So to know what we believe and then to question it. So part of knowledge is questioning. Part of knowledge is going deeper. That's also part of prashna, but what's the point of this? Where does this belief come from? How do we not uh set up our beliefs as separate from others beliefs and and attack people who believe something different from us. How do we understand how our belief system and as much as that is part of us, is not separate from other people's belief system. There's a lot of problem in the world from people thinking what I believe is the best, and if you believe something else, then you're not really human or something like that.

[27:10]

So there's a lot of hate and violence in the world because of that. So yes, thank you, Joanne. It's a practice, that's right. And, you know, it's a real good question. What is truth that's related to this? Is there one truth? Are there many truths? Is there one truth that includes the many truths? So this is something to investigate. So thank you very much. Other comments, questions, responses? If you're in the Zendo, I might not see you, so please just speak up. I have a question. Eve has a question, and I think I can... Yes, there's Eve. Hi, Eve. So where is curiosity in all that? Curiosity? Yeah, well, that's part of...

[28:13]

I guess it's how we develop knowledge. It's also prajna. Prajna is curiosity. Insight, wisdom is to ask questions, to question our beliefs, to question what do we know, to question what's in front of us. How do we see? So prajna is about seeing. And curiosity, and this requires curiosity. That's going to be another word for what we call wisdom in Buddhism, to look into what is going on, to be curious about what's going on. That's how we develop knowledge and wisdom. So yes, thank you. That's an important part of all this. I have a comment. So I'll guess. Oh, I'll get to hi. Thank you.

[29:16]

You know, this seems to intersect a lot with skillful means. Yes. I, you know, how to be helpful. And I just, you know, I've been reflecting on this video I saw in the New York Times recently called the benevolence. I don't know if anybody's seen this. Deborah's saying yes. Of a benevolence. It's in the opinion video section of the New York Times. It's in black and white. And it's people learning how to respond on a crisis line in Montreal, where they just listen and respond in an active way. And it's a very beautiful illustration. There's nothing about Zen in this. but there's a sense of people learning, helping each other learn and learning how to respond to people in great suffering and provide relief, which I think is what this Parvita business is all about.

[30:20]

So I just thought I'd make a plug for that about how inspiring it is to see these people who, you know, volunteer to learn how to be helpful and to learn about responding to deep suffering. So that's my plug for the benevolence. So thank you. Thank you, Hogetsu. So that sounds a lot like, you know, we have many people in our sangha who are, who work or have trained as chaplains, and that's kind of their job to go into a situation of suffering. So, so yeah, this is, This is how we this is also how we learn, you know, it's by trying out by by testing. you said curiosity, but it's also questioning and testing our ability, speaking of skillful means, to be able to be helpful and what we know, what we think we know, which is never the whole story.

[31:28]

Our knowledge is limited as just as a phenomenal particular human beings, but how do we use that? So thank you very much, Hoganson. Other- I'd like to follow up a little too. It's like, you know, feeling listened to and being able to listen. You know, I know some of us in here have spent time in monastic practice at San Francisco Zen Center. And one of the things that I've been really grateful for is you feel listened to, that there's a stopping, that there's a training even to stop and actually listen. And I wonder if other people have had that experience in here of actually feeling like, oh, somebody actually is listening, engaging in this active process with me and not trying to manipulate the situation. So I think there's something so deep about this topic. So thanks. Yes. Thank you.

[32:30]

Yes, this is what Sangha is about on all kinds of levels. And our current exploration of how to fully engage Sangha and our New Zendo and with all the people on Zoom too. So how do we integrate that? Yes, thank you, Huckett. So other comments about that or anything? I have a comment. I, yeah, I was just thinking about... Is this Kathy? Yes. Hi. Hi, Titan. I don't know where you went. I didn't hear it. I was thinking about knowledge and in a way it applies to us as a group right now. We're in a new situation, we've been going over practices, memos are going around, things haven't been truly completely established yet, but there are things to know like when to sit down and when to stand up and when to

[33:38]

how, what time to be here and, uh, when to bow. And, um, there's a lot of details and I'm just thinking how that, if we all know it, there's certain things that when you share knowledge, it creates a kind of a vessel that you can do things within it. Then we can share something bigger than ourselves when there's certain things that we know and we agree on, and this is going to be. are, I don't know, create some kind of a form that we work within. I think that's useful. It's very different than the other kind of knowledge we're talking about, which is, of course, hugely important. But I just thought that's kind of a mundane thing that allows a group to process as a group. of knowledge.

[34:40]

I would say it's not mundane, it's very deep. And we're challenged now, because of the pandemic and our experience of zoom, which, you know, there are many people here with me on zoom, as well as all the people in our new wonderful Zendo, Lincoln Square. How do we So discover is another word related to Eve's question about curiosity. How do we discover how to fully integrate all of this, knowing how to practice together and, and seeing the, the scope of that when we have people, a dozen people in the, Zendo on Lincoln Square, and then people from New Mexico and Wisconsin and California and all these people here on Zoom. How do we practice together in Ohio? So this is a huge challenge for Sangha now, not just our Sangha, but all Sangha.

[35:57]

How do we practice with the question of how do we share all this together. So thank you. Can I make a comment? I really like Jackie's comment because it brings me It helps me be in the group and helps me understand that practices that I don't particularly like still help me to stay within what we're doing in the Sangha. And that is

[36:59]

the form of knowledge, I think that I've just turned into a piece of wisdom. But you know, the thing that I thought about immediately, when you talk about knowledge versus wisdom, is, of course, the enormous knowledge that we have gained in the last, I would say, four decades. No, it's actually, actually, it's seven decades. about how the world works, about physics, and astronomy, and where we are. And people, there's a lot of addiction to knowledge. We've got to know the next thing. We've got to know, for example, where is the next universe, this doesn't seem to be the only one, or you know, how far can you get into the structure of the atom?

[38:05]

That you'll never learn everything or that you'll never know everything. And the more people question and Curtis many times, the more answers you find, the more questions you get. And I think this is a matter of people becoming addicted to learning more and more and more. Or developing some wisdom about what we can and cannot know. And also, it's very interesting to me that people who are aware of a lot of things about physics and the universe and so on, come to two completely different kinds of wisdom that are opposed to each other. Of course, what I'm thinking about is, which I'm always thinking about, is that we all know, I think now that Illinois has more nuclear power plants than any other state.

[39:14]

We have almost as many as Ukraine. And plus the ones in Wisconsin, and Michigan that are just near the lake or across the lake are very close to us. And The wisdom that comes from that seems to be contradictory. Some people think we just need more, and other people think we need to shut them down. And so I'm just throwing that out as something that seems to be unresolved. Thank you, Jen. Well, just to say, my opinion is that we should get rid of all of this nuclear energy. I know other people here don't agree with that.

[40:17]

So that's just my opinion. But yeah, the basic point you're making, or one of the points you're making is that it's about science. Science has been a wonderful tool. And yet it's not exactly the knowledge of the Buddha who knows everything supposedly, who's omnipresent and omniscient. And so science is a wonderful method of learning more, getting more and more knowledge. And then Wisdom is about how do we use that knowledge? And you gave some examples of, you know, there's many other examples too of how our technology, all of the wonderful things we know how to do now, sometimes it's not helpful. So that's a good example of how do we balance knowledge with insight and clarity about the implications of it.

[41:20]

So thank you. Please. I've always thought that discovery of the structure of the animal is one of the greatest accomplishments of human beings. But then look what we did. That knowledge of the structure and then the lack of wisdom in dealing with that knowledge. Yes. And part of the wisdom about that is that we can see that the structure of an atom is very similar to the structure of our solar system. with the electron planets circling the sun nucleus. And that actually that same structure applies to the structure of the galaxy, as I understand it. That galaxy is a swirling mass of things circling around a central, I don't know what,

[42:23]

I don't think the scientists know what, I don't know if it's a black hole or whatever, and that maybe our universe is circling around any other universes. Anyway, to see how these patterns of what we know stretch widely is part of what Buddhism talks about a lot. Anyway, thank you, Jen. That's very helpful in terms of talking about the difference between knowledge and wisdom, all of that. We have time for, you know, a couple more responses, maybe. Anybody else have a reflection or thought or question? Hi, Ruben. Good to see you. When I was talking about this, I was reflecting on how I really had a hard time seeing what knowledge has to do with our path, the spiritual path. And my conception of the path has been shaped a lot by Kenneth Wilburn, growing up, cleaning up, waking up, and showing up.

[43:38]

And for me, that's about discovering I'm a whole person as I am. and then dealing with my karma and then discovering the context of my life and then helping. Right. So, but thank you. It really, really helps me see how, uh, how knowledge is the key to showing up, how, how that that's, that's where the rubber meets the road. Right. Um, and, uh, of course from the cycles again, when we discovered when I, when I learned that I needed to know more, um, that my, uh, But I learned that I need to know more, right? And then once again, cycle through, okay, reground, clean up some more, wake up a little more, and try again. So anyway, my point is just thank you. Well, thank you. Yeah, yeah. The things we know can help us to practice, or they can be used,

[44:44]

as tools of conflict and separation. Are there any other last comments, questions, responses? Please feel free. Sure. Thank you for your talk, Sagan. And what I'm thinking about is, it seems like there's a There's a central teaching in our realm of Buddhism around not knowing being sort of primary, that there's like an emphasis on that kind of humility of acknowledging like the, I guess, all of the unknowns. And it seems to like this comes up just came up around like patients as well that there's like for me there's like a tension. between it seems like sort of the call to like humility and like waiting that is like fundamental to like the wisdom of our practice.

[45:58]

But then also the reality of like living in the world and needing to have a sort of confidence to act in the face of these sort of teachings teachings that speak to the fundamental unknowing that sort of implies like, well, how can you do anything if not knowing is the reality that you live in, that we all live in? And so, I guess, I don't know a thought on just like that tension that seems to be so present in the way we're taught and trained in Buddhism? Thank you, yes. So part of the practice of knowing is to know what we don't know. So there's an interesting

[47:02]

tension, dialogue, mutual support between knowing and not knowing. If we know, if we understand, if we have some sense of the limitations of our knowing, we can use the things we know more skillfully, more helpfully. If we think we know it all, then, you know, that, then there's no more conversation, there's no more investigation, there's no more curiosity. So people who know it all about some topic, who can explain everything about some topic, don't see the things they don't know about it and cut off this inquiry. So the inquiry or the questioning is really important. And this is where knowing and not knowing are really partners so that we can develop the things we know

[48:07]

to be more beneficial by knowing that we don't know. We can not know some things and then learn. So education is an interesting part of Buddhism. What is it that we are trying to learn or study? Dogen says very, very regularly, do you really know this? Please study this more. So how do we learn in a way that's not just accumulating facts or so-called facts so that we are the most knowledgeable person in a particular area? So this knowing and not knowing are actually partners. Thank you. And just a quick follow-up, do you feel like any of the Paramitas speak to kind of like faith, given that we are always acting in a kind of like ignorance?

[49:15]

Like we don't, I mean, we can embrace our not knowing, but sooner or later you have to trust that even in your not knowing, there's a way to move. Yeah, they're all about faith. Our whole practice is about faith, not faith in the sense of beliefs or belief systems, but trust. So what Zazen is about is settling more deeply into this deeper awareness of being alive and trusting something It's not belief in some super being or belief in some super doctrine. It's trusting that we're alive and that we have the opportunity to be caring and helpful and aware and kind. So yeah, I'm just looking at the list of the 10 and I would say they're all about

[50:24]

faith in that wider sense, confidence in that wider sense. The practice of vow or commitment is one where we particularly express our trust and faith. So maybe I'll speak about that next month in one of the talks. So, but yeah, it's a good point because all of these depend on kind of deeper confidence and trust in reality. So thank you. There might be time for one more comment. So please, if you have something you want to say or ask or respond to, please feel free. One follow up comment. Who is this? Kathy. Oh, hi, Kathy. I was thinking about knowing and not knowing and thinking back about Professor's comment about benevolence and response to other people who are in a situation that we're not in.

[51:35]

And I was thinking that's a dynamic situation where sometimes we have to be open to thinking we know something about a situation and realizing that we don't know. And so that ability to know things, but yet be flexible to become aware of times when our knowledge is not sufficient to understand fully something, and that we have to be open to learning. That's a dynamic process that is part of all this, I think. Thank you. Yes, there's a process here. Partly it's to know what we do know as well as to know what we don't know. So we all have skill sets and knowledges that can be helpful and that we can share to be helpful as long as we don't think we know all of it. So thank you very much.

[52:34]

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