Intimidated by the chant we just did. I'm surpassed. Perfect penetrating dharma? I don't think so. But then I realized, oh, it's not anything that comes from me. It's what's already been given to us. That was some relief. But I wondered if you knew how long a kapha was. A kapha. is how long it takes for a bird who has a piece of silk in his beak, or her beak, flying over a mountain of stone, and the silk rubs on the mountain each time, how long it takes for the mountain to be worn away. So, this is a long time. Maybe not as long as this lecture, but... So, the last thing that we say, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words, is just one of so many ways that we aim ourselves and bring our energy forward towards it returning to our true self, returning to our home,

[01:27]

And that's basically what I wanted to talk to you about today, is our vows. And especially I wanted to talk about it today because of why I'm here, some things why I'm here. Meili and Alan and Vicky, Michael Wenger, various members of our Sangha and extended Sangha are at Tassajara. Receiving the Dharma transmission, and I know some of you know that Maybe some of you don't and in this instance the vows are very deep I can only imagine and very wonderful in which student and teacher come together in a very deep way with a commitment to one another and It's very Wonderful. I've heard Meili, as she was told that she was entering this process, talking about Lex Hixson's book on the transmission of light, which is the history of how the Dharma has been transmitted from one teacher to student, always heart to heart, throughout history, and how Lex Hixson refers to it as light being poured into light.

[02:52]

So this is a very wonderful occasion, and it makes me very happy to think about all of them being there in this intimate transmission. And for those of you that I don't know, I'm very touched still by these ceremonies. In January, my Dharma twin Andrea and I took pre-spouse here, and we've been rocking and rolling ever since. with the deep impact that that's had on us. And we were just talking about it. What does it mean? And it's a vow really to offer yourself and to live your life for the benefit of others. And this is a really awesome task, especially because I know how selfish I am. And some of you also know this. about me and about yourselves.

[03:57]

So there's some importance in returning to this vow, the bodhisattva vows which we chant at the end of the lecture. Beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. And all of these are impossible vows, so you won't run out of something to do. You can always be engaged in your practice. And this is a place that you can keep returning to keep nourishing and encouraging your own way-seeking mind or your what's called bodhicitta. And bodhicitta is this enlightened mind seeking enlightenment. And it has two expressions.

[04:58]

One is coming to practice, and the other is the practice itself in meditation, the awakening of the enlightened mind. So, as we keep returning to bow, as we keep bowing over and over again to turn from our selfishness, to turn towards offering our lives to others, this bodhicitta takes flight and really expresses itself. So this pouring of light into light or this expression of enlightenment expressing itself is what we do in practice. So I, you don't see me here so often. I live and have lived for the last two years between Fresno and Yosemite up in the mountains. And there I have started a sitting group and we meet every Sunday.

[06:05]

And also there's, in North Fork is the name of the town. And also I work in Ocris as a psychologist. And it's a really wonderful place. It's a real mountain town. And people are very grateful to have someone there to help them. And I have most fortunate in that I work at a hospital that's a rural health clinic, so they take a Medi-Cal. So people who wouldn't otherwise get treatment, get treatment. So this was great fortune for me. And there I also train some interns to do therapy. And I've started a chronic pain group in the style of John Kabat-Zinn. So I have a lot of opportunity to practice this kind of living to help others in my life, and I'm very grateful. I also have a family, and my sons are grown. I have a 25 and a 28-year-old son. The 28-year-old is married, and the 25-year-old lives in London. I think he could have lived further away from home, but I just don't think he's figured out yet how to get much further.

[07:15]

But he's definitely finding his independence. And so our Zendo is called Empty Nest Zendo. And so this is what I've been doing. And I wanted to talk about this vow this importance of vowing through a particular case. Well, I'll read that to you. Actually, the case is Huì Chǎo asks about Buddha. And a monk named Huì Chǎo asks Fa Yán, What is Buddha? And Fa-Yin said, you are Hui-Chao. So the commentary on the case describes how we keep looking for something outside of ourselves.

[08:22]

It's like we're riding an ox, searching for an ox. But in the same case is something that I wanted to talk about. And that is another situation which I think some of you have heard before in this practice. It's like Superintendent Tse. He's been staying in Fa Yen's congregation, but had never asked to enter Fa Yen's room for special instruction, for dok son. One day, Fa Yen asked him, why haven't you come to enter my room, my dok son? Tse replied, didn't you know, teacher? When I was at Ching Lin's place, I had an entry. I had an enlightenment experience. Fa Yen said, oh really? Try to recall it to me. Tse said, walked right into the trap. I asked, what is Buddha?

[09:25]

Lin said, the fire god comes looking for fire. Fa Yen said, hmm. Good words, but I'm afraid you've misunderstood. Can you say something more for me? Zay said, the fire god is in the province of fire. He's seeking fire with fire. Likewise, I am Buddha. Yet, I went on searching for Buddha. And now I've got it, you know, I've got it right in my pocket here. I'm fine. I don't need anything. You know, this is all understood. This isn't said in the case. Fayan said, sure enough. The superintendent has misunderstood." Containing his anger, Zay left the monastery and went off across the river. Bayan said, this man can be saved if he comes back. If he doesn't return, he can't be saved. Out on the road, Zay thought to himself, he is a teacher of 500 people.

[10:29]

How could he deceive me? So he turned back. and again called on Fayan who told him, just ask me and I'll answer you. Thereupon Tse said, he asked the question, what is Buddha? Fayan said, the fire god comes looking for fire. At these words, Tse was greatly enlightened. So this has this great quality of mystery But I like it because it's like the light being poured into the light. And it also says a lot about a vow, and a broken vow, and how hard it is for us to keep our vows. Because Tse had an entry. In flash, he saw, Oh, Buddha, I'm Buddha. I don't have to look outside myself. Yet, had he seen that truly, And had he continued to work with it and deepen it, of course he would have, Fire God, seeking fire, gone to the teacher for more teaching.

[11:40]

But in Buddhism, I see Buddhism is not a noun, it's not something we have, it's a verb, it's something we do. So we never have it, maybe nobody's told you this before, you never get it, but you keep at it. You keep doing. You keep practicing. So it's not something you ever get. So there's this wonderful exchange of light being poured into light and fire gods seeking fire. No matter how deep your practice goes, it's always a pleasure pouring with a teacher. So it was quite clear to the teacher that he didn't have anything except stuckness. And like most of us, he was stuck on himself. and he actually had something, and he did not intend to have it jeopardized. It was his. He wasn't going to share it, and so on. So this stands out like a sore thumb to a teacher. So the teacher, even though Tse had made this vow to practice, he also was struggling with his own self-clinging, his own

[12:53]

need to have something, to be important, to know something, and to have attained something. So this was a big struggle for him, and why this was hard for him to continue his vow of practicing for the benefit of all beings. So when the teacher told him that he was all wet, even as the fire god, you haven't got it, he was insulted. And this is also another sign that something's missing. There's a saying, a Chinese expression, which is, the wise man does not prefer praise to criticism. And most of us who've worked with a teacher have come to really value this expression. If you really work with your teacher, your teacher will give you lots of criticism. which will mostly be well-deserved, and sometimes there's some just thrown in there, no expert charge, just to see what you're going to do with it.

[14:02]

So, Superintendent Say had a characteristic reaction to someone who's holding on to something. And we all do that by either being hurt or being angry. It's a very interesting problem. Sensitivity. The Tibetans talk about it a fair bit, and the Dalai Lama said, you know, people have everything backwards. People have things upside down. You know, they take things that are very important and they give it very little consideration, but the very smallest slight, and they're all over it. So we either have this kind of hypersensitivity that somebody says something that damages this idea that we're holding on to about ourselves. Or we have insensitivity where we go around doing that to everybody else. And sometimes we do both very well. So in this case he had done both.

[15:04]

You know, he had insulted his teacher and he had been hypersensitive himself. So off he went. In anger management, this is not so bad. He went and took a walk. Counted to ten. And in the process, he had some realization. Wait a minute, wait, wait a minute. I'm the student. I'm here to practice. This is painful, but there's something deeper going on. And he turned around. And our practice consists actually in that moment when we turn around. When we think we're doing it really well, uh-oh! In the moment where we completely fail or fail and can't remember and don't do it right and make mistakes and catch ourselves going through something, either anger or hurt or confusion, and we turn around

[16:09]

That's the real place where our practice is. That's where we really practice. So he had to in some way open up his heart and in some way put down his ego to go back and face the teacher and say, all right, okay, maybe I don't have it. This is what brought the enlightenment. I mean, maybe the teacher could have said, asked me anything and could have said, you know, pigs fly and he would have experienced enlightenment. We don't know. But the real enlightenment was in the work that he had done to remove the obstacles from his receiving and having the light poured into the light and having the fire god seek fire. He removed the obstacles from himself and then it was easy. So we're told anyway, I don't know, maybe not. But this hard work of undoing our reactions, knowing that our reactions to situations are just our reactions, that there's something deeper, that there's a deeper place we need to keep turning to, is really the place in our practice where we actually practice and get some leverage.

[17:30]

And you can experience that in your zazen, as you're sitting and as your thoughts arise, and as the thinking occurs, with the letting go. Each time you let go, it's like you're building this muscle, turning around, turning to face it. And you can experience it in this practice. When you bow, and you participate in the service. Are you really there? You know, you'll find your mind wandering, saying, oh, my case is going to pull off, or, you know, my knee hurts, or this is boring, you know, when do we get to the good part? And there's so many thoughts that arise, and each time that you turn and let go, and throw your whole self into that bow, Try not to break the floor, but give it everything.

[18:34]

Pour yourself completely. This is the turn that you make, and this is the vow that is the movement of enlightened mind. And in the chanting, you may think, well, my voice isn't that good, or, you know, listen to that person. I don't even want to start. And all of the things that come up when we chant, how do I find my place? How do I find my voice? But when we keep making that effort and that intention as a big vibration comes out. And this is another way we pour ourselves completely into the practice. So there are ways that we pour ourselves into this practice and it's built for just that. For each time we do that we're returning to the vow that we've made. This isn't very abstract actually. It sounds a little abstract and it's not at all limited to formal practice exactly.

[19:35]

By formal practice I mean the things we do in the zendo. I remember some of my own vows. when in the early years that I was coming to Berkeley Zen Center in the 80s, there was, there's an entry, there's always an entry and it, I don't know how it is for people coming now. It's almost like breaking through a crust and I'm not very smooth at this. I just sort of stand out and call attention to myself or maybe it was worse then. I don't know. But, all I know is there was a lot of resistance at some point to my being here, actually. And there was a lot, socially, you know, we have all these levels, we enter the Sangha, you know, we enter with our spirit, and then we have some social problems we need to work out, that people tell us about, and about our own interpersonal styles. And there's our relationship with the teacher. So we always have these many levels of problems that we're working with. And I remember I was working with these social problems,

[20:37]

and having a lot of difficulty. And I remember specific mornings coming and really feeling that there were people who lived here who didn't want me to be here. And I remember the experience of considering that and telling myself, just turn to the light. Just turn to the light. And in that moment, being able to let go of all that social anguish and all the problems that people always get into, inevitably, wherever they are, even though we work so hard at being clear here, still, we have problems. And so, rather than having an idea that we shouldn't have these kinds of social problems here, I remember talking to Mel about it, and he said to me, don't confuse the leaves with the root. So this was also very helpful words to orient me back to my vow. Oh, I didn't come here to make friends and win people over or to be popular or to be liked.

[21:44]

So anyway, that's not going to happen. Let me just do the work I need to do and we'll see what happens. So that was one example of a vow that served me very well to keep me turning away from the mess that I was becoming embroiled in. And another time I remember, and I didn't really understand the nature of this vow, but as Mel and I talked about my wanting to become a priest, he suggested that I cut my hair really short. And I thought that would be really easy. Oh, he said several things. Cut your hair really short. Well, he didn't tell me to do any of these things. He just said, what would happen if? So, that's a challenge of the teacher, right? What would happen if? Tell me about this alignment you had. Let's see. Let's see what it's made of. So, what would happen if you cut your hair really short, you stopped wearing jewelry, and the third one's embarrassing, and you stopped shopping.

[22:52]

It's embarrassing because it remains a vow that I'm still working with. So, anyway, the first one took place between me and my hairdresser. And I used to go in and I'd say, all right, start cutting and keep cutting until I scream. And I can't take it anymore. And so we would do this, you know, pretty much once a month. I didn't realize exactly what I was screaming for, you know, until I sort of put the whole thing together. And I went out, you know, I now had the short hair, no jewelry, and so on, and I went and I left my house, and it was like, Well, you look the same as when you got up this morning. You know, there's no... Good point. There's no improvement in the property. This is it. In fact, I had a great awakening when some friends called me around breakfast time and said they wanted to stop by.

[24:00]

I said, well, come over. You know, I'm still in my pajamas, but I wasn't going to look any different any later in the day. I might have slightly different colored clothing on, but that was it. And so, I didn't realize that this was a vow, this vow of not self-clinging, and how really painful it was to me as a woman to do this, and especially at my height, going into the market, and someone's calling me sir, this happens at least once a month. Actually, I should enjoy it. It's good, respectful. And so, this was a vow that I've made, I haven't been disappointed. It's been very profound even though I thought it was a very small thing to do. So, the other time that I can think about this vow is a recent part of my practice that I hadn't shared yet formally with a group. When we went to Japan this last time to practice in Rinzō-in,

[25:08]

I made a trip to Kyoto to practice in Tofukuji, it's a Rinzai temple. And I had met a teacher there about a year and a half before on my last trip to Japan. And it was a really strange experience because I had called and visited with many teachers and I I thought, oh, I could practice with this one. No, I'm not interested in this one. And I went through this process. But then I met this one teacher. And it wasn't anything he said, because actually he had an interpreter there and pretended that he couldn't speak English, but he really could. And that he was just making the wall really high. If I was going to come through that wall, I was going to have to work really hard. So he had an interpreter there. But I know when I left, I said to my husband, Peter, what was that? There was a sense that, you know, I was just sort of walking along and I hit a wall. I mean, there was something there and I didn't really understand what it was.

[26:11]

And so I... I asked him when I was there if I could study with him or practice with him because my husband and I really love Kyoto and we have a lot of different interests and this is a place that comes together for us, going to Japan together. So I would like to sit in temples there and he would like in the evenings to do some singing and practicing in the karaoke bars and enjoying the Japanese culture in that way. So finding a temple in Kyoto was a way we could really practice together. So he also would, you know, he likes to sit zazen and he's a member here and he's been practicing a long time but he enjoys all aspects of Japanese culture. I have to clarify that. Whereas I'm more limited in my appreciation. So when I asked his teacher if I could practice with him in Kyoto, he said, yes, but you'll have to do a Sashin first.

[27:14]

I said, OK. I know what Sashins are. We've been doing Sashins for many years. And I said, so what's your Sashin schedule? He said, well, it's 3 to 11. And seven days, and there are I said, so breaks? He said, there are no breaks. Uh, uh, kin-hin? There's no kin-hin. So, the periods? The periods are an hour. And a bell rings at the end of the period, and then you go on to the next period. So, anyway, I considered this for a while. But I was so struck. I really did feel like someone had knocked the wind out of me after I'd met him. Then I knew, based on my own vow to practice it, I had to go back. So it took about a year and a half.

[28:15]

My son got married and many intervening events. And I was able to work out the return to coincide with this trip we were making to Japan. And luckily there was a session. So, Anyway, I called with the help of another Japanese-speaking person who speaks quite well. I only speak a little, but I'd been studying because I thought the teacher only spoke Japanese. And we called the temple from Rinzou in to find out what time I should arrive the day before Sesshin. And he said, you know, three or four in the afternoon is fine. And I said, well, what time will I be leaving on the seventh day of Sesshin? knowing that our Sashim's end, you know, a little earlier. I said, leaving? No, the Sashim will end at midnight, and we'll be up for service the next morning at three. So here I had been anticipating, you know, six or seven nights, and now it was eight nights, and that was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back.

[29:21]

I went into, you know, complete terror. I think I'd been in denial, and I was in complete terror at that point. So, I think I cried for two days before I left her in Soen, and I cried non-stop on the train from Shizuoka to Kyoto. People, what do they think of, you know, Gaijin? I didn't do a very good job of promoting American practitioners in Japan. But anyway, I turned myself in to the temple. When I arrived in Kyoto, and I had told my husband beforehand, You know, I don't know if I'm going to make it. Well, actually, when I talked to Mel about it, he said, well, you just have to be willing to die to do it. And I said, OK. But I wasn't sure whether I was. And so I said to my husband, if you get a call from me at the temple where he was staying at Rinsow Inn with the other people and Mel and Blanche, I'll say I've twisted my ankle.

[30:21]

And that will be the code that I'm actually staying in a luxury hotel in Kyoto. And that I could not make it through the Sesshin. So all of these plans in place, I went forward. And I got there and I had my entrance interview with Roshi. And I was trying to describe to him in Japanese Blanche's Zuisei ceremony and a purpose of our trip, which he understood. And then he started to tell me about the Rinzai equivalent of the Zuisei ceremony. At which point I said, Wakarimasen, I don't understand. And he started speaking perfect English to me. And also there were breaks. And there were 10 minutes between 15 minute periods. Every little bit counts. In any case, we did Zazen the night before Session till 11 and we got up at 3 the next morning.

[31:24]

And by 8 o'clock in the morning, I said, I'm finished. I'm ruined. I used actually a much more impolite expletive than that when I described myself. And it's only 8 o'clock in the morning on the first day. This has nothing to do with any session I've ever sat before. Because the worst part was not the schedule. The very worst part for me was the beatings. And I wasn't being beaten. But all of the new monks were being beaten so severely that they would hit them so hard with the stick this thick, this wide, that the tatami would reverberate. And that thing is very absorbent. And I had to decide very quickly, actually in the first few minutes of session, am I in or am I out? If I'm going to think about what these people are doing, I'll have to leave right now.

[32:29]

And otherwise, I'll do this session and I'm not going to think about what... But still, every time I would start counting my breath, I'd be counting the wax that these people were getting. And I couldn't stay away from it. And I had my own family history about it too. Nevertheless, I stuck it out. And at 8 o'clock in the morning, I had my first realization when I realized I couldn't do this session. And in fact, I felt that way for the entire time. But there was only one thing I could do. And that was to take the next breath. And it was a lot of breaths in seven days. But I never felt that I had it handled. And I never felt that I was going to be able to do it. And it was really the best medicine for me. Who thinks I can actually do things. You know, I have this kind of competence thing, you know. And Amelie, in fact, said to me, when I was leaving for Tassajara for my practice period, she said, What are you going to do about your desire for attainment?

[33:40]

And I said, I'm going to let it defeat me. And I think in this case it really did, because going to this temple, feeling rather competent, I felt by the end of it, Like I was just barely, you know, it's like I ride horses. It's like you get up on a horse and you're sitting the horse pretty well. All of a sudden the horse starts running and maybe you hold on to the horn and then maybe you're grabbing on to the mane. But in this case, I'd already slipped off the horse's ass and I was holding on to the last hairs of his tail, being dragged along for the whole way. And so it was a very powerful lesson, and one I'm planning to repeat in December. Apparently, I haven't had enough. While I was there, the teacher said, I said, I would like to study with you, because he also didn't let me do any Doksan while I was there, because this was just, I was proving myself. So everybody would rush off to do Doksan, and I would get to sit the extra five periods a day.

[34:44]

while they were waiting to do doksan and wind up. So he said, well, you can come back. Next time you come back, you can do doksan, which is formal koan study. And I said, well, can I really study koans with you at such a distance if I only come at these irregular times? And he said, well, yes, you know, you just come to sesshin. So I said, well, I'm kind of limited because I don't know if I can come to your December session. You know, your winter sessions is, you know, no heat and the zendo has windows, but there's no, nothing in the windows. It's a stone, it's a stone zendo and it has these big windows and that's it. There's just holes, you know. So he said, well, You're going to need to find the way to transcend hot and cold." So I said, well, I guess that's my koan.

[35:48]

So it turns out my husband has time off for his holiday between Christmas and New Year, so I'll do rohatsu sashin with all of you, and I'll go from the 16th to the 22nd to do sashin there. So I've added a new level of terror, which is the cold. Somebody said to me, why, why did you stay on that train with all of that fear? Why did you do this? Why do you do this? And I think she thought I was doing it just to try to prove whether that I could do it. You know, that I was really macho enough, macha enough to do this. But that's not why, that's not a good enough reason. I found that out by eight in the morning. I couldn't do it. and I can't do it, and I'm doing it because I know that's how I need to practice. And lucky you, you may not need to. But if you do, I'll give you the name and the address.

[36:52]

But that's my vow to my practice, which is when I encounter, through some kind of connection, that this is something I need to do, it's like, I don't want to do it, I'm afraid to do it, but I need to do it. And that's kind of my experience with a haircut, you know, just keep cutting until I scream and I can't take it anymore. So these are some examples of vows that I've made. And each time you all make a vow, you need to overcome something, some extra something that you're holding on to. And this is one of the really powerful things of having vows and following your vows and returning to them over and over again, is that when you do, you encounter all the obstacles that you're creating in your mind. Whether it's greed, hate or delusion, we all seem to keep coming up with these obstacles.

[37:56]

So this is one outcome of the vow. But another is just being united with your true self, with your practice, having this joyful experience of union with your practice. I think I've probably said enough and maybe you have some questions. Don't ask me why about tofukuchi though. It still remains unanswered other than what I did now. But other questions maybe about your own vows? Yes. In terms of making a vow, does it have to be something verbal that you have to follow? Do vows have to be unsaid? Have to be what? Hmm. Well, what do you think? No. Yeah. Yeah, no.

[38:58]

I agree with you, no. I think unconsciously I was following this vow to Tofukuji and I had no understanding of what it was about. And unconsciously we find our way to Zen Center and unconsciously we keep returning even though what's the fun in it? But, there's also a great deal of power in making a vow to yourself, you know, if it's cutting your hair short, if it's being more generous with your affection, like the vow I made with my mother-in-law. You know, it's been a really powerful vow for me to do everything I can to spend time with her and enjoy her company. and to see what it is in me that arises. It does no good to look at the world and say, that's just a big drag. You know, we can't cover the whole world with some kind of sugary sweet coating.

[40:04]

On the other hand, if we make a vow, it's like rather than coating the rough edges of the world, we put some covering on our own feet so we can walk along. So actually making a vow, to yourself consciously is a way you can keep a close eye on what you're doing. Yes? I just really want to thank you for your talk and thinking about that whole problem of conscious and unconsciousness. I love the image of Right. This is the point being the vow is not to obliterate yourself. The vow is about practicing for the sake of others and not to do the self-clinging.

[41:12]

So there's a difference between punishing and clinging. Yes, you're not going to run out of work. We already know we're going to fail to keep our vows, even though we're going to do our best to keep them, yes? So should we approach vows as very concrete things to work on, or are they processes? Well, what's an example of one of each? For instance, a vow to be a vegan. But it's not. We can approach it, and if we fail once, we can just quit and say, oh, I can't do this. Or we can continue and keep working on it and try to become it.

[42:12]

Actually, I thought you meant something else by the question, which is, the individual vows are supported in a very big process, which is, are you becoming a vegan so that you can be a vegan and be good at something? Or are you becoming a vegan to offer this offering as you practice? And so then, when you fail to keep your vow, it's like, well, what does this mean about my offering myself in practice? You know, is it truly an offering? Or is it something that I'm attached to? If it's truly an offering and you fail, you continue to offer yourself. Yeah? Are they going to beat up on you next time you go to Sissi? No. They never beat foreigners. They never beat anyone but the new monks. And I don't understand it. I'm a little embarrassed and ashamed because I have these attitudes and ideas that it's not right and that I'm participating in something that is evil.

[43:26]

but I still don't understand it. And in those moments, not only did they hit them that hard, I mean, the people who were wielding the stick had to tape their hands. Poor things were, you know, getting blistered after a few days of hitting so hard. And they would attack them on the inside, they'd sit facing out, and they would attack them and lunge at them, and these guys would do a somersault backwards on the tongue. So, this was just like being in a Zendo with Batman and Robin. They're not going to do that to me. And that was clear, even though it was quite clear, it was still very terrifying and still a big question for me about what it meant. But while all this was going on, out of these big window holes, I could see the most beautifully sculpted garden I've ever seen, and there's quite a few in Kyoto.

[44:28]

And I thought, the same hand that's wielding the stick is shaping the trees. I don't understand its mind. Yes? Were you sure the monks were being heard? I mean, even though they were getting clobbered, Yeah, there were non-verbal signs that they were definitely in pain and that those blows were actually hurting as they were coming. I mean, they would have to. They were being hit so hard. When they took the hits, they'd have to put their hand down here so their head wouldn't get knocked into the mail board. I couldn't, I didn't want to think about what their backs looked like, because they would get hit as many as six times a period, two hits per shoulder, as hard as some of these guys would stand on their tiptoes and hit, use that stick as hard as they could. I'm pretty sure that their backs were a pretty big mess.

[45:30]

And that somehow, at one point I felt like I'd like to just stand up and take the stick away. And then I realized, well, that's my idea. But since they've been doing the practice at this temple since mid-1200s, these monks who signed up to come here probably want to complete what their ancestors did. And they probably don't want some big Gaijin hunger woman coming around and inserting herself in their spiritual practice. So I restrained myself from rescuing them.

[46:06]

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