And then Yuen Yuen takes his broom and holds it up and says, which moon is this? And Da Wu walked off. So that story can be used as a, you know, to tune in to the way to meditate. So we're thinking all the time. We're always sweeping the mind field. We're always up to something. So someone could come and criticize us and say, you're involved in karma. But we could remember that somebody isn't. And that's that attitude of study. Which is not another kind of karma. It's really not busy. And right while you're involved in your busyness, is that the busyness or the unbusyness?

[01:08]

You don't want to separate them, because the unbusy is really unbusy. It can't get away from the busyness. It doesn't say, oh, you're busy, I'm going up in the mountains on a retreat. That's another kind of busyness. The unbusy one doesn't go on retreats, doesn't come back from retreats. It's just always with you, whether you're on retreat or not. The unbusy one was with you before you came to Tassajara. It's been with you the whole time. And when you leave, the unbusy one will be with you all the way, all the way. And you can't really say, when you see a moment of activity, you can't really say, you can say, but it's a little off to say that's the busy one or that's not the busy one. But the important thing is, don't forget either one. Now most people don't forget the busy one. They forget the unbusy one. But some people forget both.

[02:14]

In other words, they're not being mindful of their activity or their presence. That story is the 21st case of the Book of Serenity, if you want to study it further. People seem to be quite interested in how karma matures. Some people, anyway. Some people don't want to hear any more about it. and how the maturing of karma, the way it matures, is related to practice. Some people want to hear more about that. So we can talk about that if you like. And also, there was a question which I asked you to postpone until our meeting.

[03:22]

Would you like to ask it now or do you want to ask it later? Okay. Okay. Some of them are, you know. pure self-indulgence. So how do you distinguish between non-thinking and self-indulgence? Mind is functioning and the body's right there too and there's breathing going on and the mind I guess maybe let's say the mind gives rise to the thought, the intention, let's concentrate, let's attend to the breathing process.

[04:24]

And then the mind attends to the breathing process some, but then it also attends to the sounds and the sights that aren't strictly speaking usually considered as breath. Okay? So you're aware of breath and you're aware of the birds, the stream, the light. And then you're aware of some other thoughts. Like what? Like some people have some other examples. Shopping. Huh? Planning. Reliving the past. Reliving the past. thinking of your friends and other people, these kinds of thoughts. And so what would self-indulgence be? What do you think self-indulgence... Do you have an example of a self-indulgent way of thinking? Can you think of something like that? Well, you say, oh, come on, get back to the breath. Is that self-indulgent?

[05:30]

But instead of getting back to the breath... Wait a second. Was the thought, oh, get back to the breath, was that self-indulgent? No. What was that? Would you maybe call that self-discipline? Okay, so you say that, and then what happens? So you don't think that's self-indulgent? No, I think that's what you should be doing. That's what you might want to do? Yeah, I want to do that. Okay. Yeah, okay. You know, thinking about things that are urgent. You'd like to stop thinking about things that are banal. Okay? You'd like to stop thinking about things that are superficial. Shallow. You'd like to stop thinking about things that are shallow. Okay. And do you want to know if that's self-indulgent? High-minded.

[06:37]

And is high-minded self-indulgent? Huh? self-righteous. So, it's okay if you, you know, what do you call it, this really is a free country. At least in this valley, it's a free country. And if you want, if you don't want, if you want to stop thinking superficial thoughts, you can, you can, you can want to stop thinking superficial thoughts. You can desire to stop thinking superficial thoughts. However, you may notice that you don't. That's pretty superficial, isn't it? And one form of self-aggrandizement would be to stop thinking of superficial thoughts. Wouldn't you be a grander person if you had no superficial thoughts in your mind? I mean, look in my head. There's not one superficial thought in there. Am I... Is this a grand person?

[07:38]

I mean, you just peel the brain back. Look, there's not a superficial thought in there. What a grand person. And in some ways, a person without any superficial thoughts would be kind of a grand person, really. But most people who have superficial thoughts in their heads also have an additional superficial thought of they'd like to be, you know, grander than that, which is another superficial thought. But anyway, it's okay to have superficial thoughts. But more important than being a grand person is being a Buddha. And Buddhas do not try to get rid of superficial thoughts. Because they know that even if they got rid of all their superficial thoughts, you know, clean this whole thing up here, okay, that they have to practice with everybody else and have a loving relationship with all beings. So then they're back in like total superficial thoughts again. So Buddhas don't like try to get rid of superficial thoughts. Buddhas... practice together with all superficial thoughts.

[08:40]

They don't try to get rid of them. But some people who are involved in superficial thoughts, one of the superficial thoughts they have is they want to get rid of superficial thoughts. They want to stop superficial thoughts. Which is a perfectly good superficial thought. Okay? It's not like a terribly... It's not a really... you know, super cruel superficial thought, it's just a little bit cruel. It's just a little bit disrespectful. Because every superficial thought actually contains the truth of life. There's no superficial thought that ever occurred in the history of the universe that wasn't produced by the entire universe. Everything has a truth in it. So the Buddha respects every superficial thought. And by respecting every superficial thought, basically they drop away. They aren't banished.

[09:42]

They just don't catch you anymore. Just like the blue jays and the flowers on the hill, they're just out there. You aren't obsessive about them. You're not trying to hold on to them or get rid of them. So if you wish to follow your breathing because you think that would be good, that's fine. That's an intention to concentrate. But it's a little bit superficial to want to concentrate. But it's okay to be a little superficial because We've got some other thoughts which are even more superficial. Like, for example, let's be distracted and cause a lot of trouble. Let's be self-destructive. That's even, you know, more superficial. But some might say, that's not superficial, that's deeply harmful.

[10:44]

If you respect all your mental phenomena, your mind naturally becomes serene. If you follow your breathing and without coercing yourself or insulting yourself, your mind will become calm. But if you insult yourself in the process of trying to, like, discipline yourself, you may get quite concentrated, but there's still a basic insult involved in getting yourself concentrated. It's a dangerous thing to do. Because when you come out of the concentration, then you're back in your ordinary state of mind, you might get quite irritable. Do you understand? No? If you put yourself in a state of concentration, but the way you do it is by like putting down all your non-concentrated states,

[11:50]

Like basically saying, you know, I don't want to be, I don't want to look at this. I don't want to listen to the Blue Jays. I don't want to hear the sound of the stream. I don't want to think about my friends and enemies. I don't want to do that. I want to just do the breath and I really feel bad when I don't do the breath. Okay? And you can coerce yourself into like really being on the breath and get into a real concentration. Deep concentration that way. But that ends. And when it ends, then you're back in all this stuff again. But since you got yourself out of that by eschewing and putting down that realm, now you're back in a realm that you used to put down, so you're quite irritated by it. So it's possible to go into a state of deep concentration by that method, and when you come back be irritable. And be rude to human beings and other beings that you basically tried to get rid of in order to concentrate. So it's a dangerous thing. But if you can get concentrated without being rude to the rest of the world besides what you're concentrating on, then when you come out of your concentration, which you will because everything is impermanent, you might be friendly to the things you weren't concentrating on.

[12:59]

So just like, you know, you can concentrate on writing or cutting vegetables or mowing the lawn or cutting your toenails. You can concentrate on those things and it feels good to concentrate on cutting your toenails when you're cutting your toenails. Ever do it? It's nice. You get right down there and go cut, cut, cut, cut. You're there, you know. It's nice to just really do a good job. But you don't have to sort of like hate your spouse while you're cutting it. No, just shut up. I hate you. I'm trying to concentrate here. No, you can just, you know, say, could I cut my toenails now? And then when you're done, you're willing to relate, you know? Or even if they interrupt you and say, could I talk to you a second? You don't like snap at them because they're like interrupting your deep serenity of cutting your toenails. So this gentle, we have to be gentle when we discipline ourselves. If we're rough when we discipline ourselves, it'll come back in our face. So if you can sit in meditation and follow your breathing and encourage yourself to follow your breathing in a way that you actually are, you know, gently, you know, talking yourself into it in a gentle way because basically it's a good thing, you know.

[14:16]

it'll probably work better. Plus, when it doesn't work, you won't be so negative about yourself when you're not doing it. So then basically, you're comfortable when you're concentrated and you're comfortable when you're not concentrated. Which seems like a pretty good deal because you can't be concentrated all the time. I mean, you can't be in a concentration practice all the time on a certain thing. I'm sure you get at this, but When should you really be hard on yourself? I'll tell you. When you want to be. When you really want to be hard on yourself, go right ahead and be hard on yourself. But... But? I don't want to be hard on myself. Well, then you don't. If you're anticipating, like, say, a lie... Yeah. Yeah. How about not talking? Yeah. That's what the Buddha recommended.

[15:22]

Yeah. You don't tell a lie. No, you just don't tell a lie. Now, what if telling a lie would help the person? Then you have to tell it. Yeah. Like, you know, let's say you and I are standing at the edge of a creek, of a roaring river. And, you know, there's a landslide coming at us from our back. And you say, I'm afraid to cross the river because I'm afraid I'll fall in. And I say, that's not really a river.

[16:26]

It's just a picture of a river. Don't worry. Just walk across. So you walk across. And you get to the other side. And you're safe. And I lied. I said it wasn't a river. And I knew perfectly well, by ordinary conventional standards, it was a river. And what you thought it was was just pretty much what it is, namely something you could fall in and drown. But I lied to you, but I wasn't lying to you to gain anything for myself. I was just lying because you needed to get across the river, and I was trying to talk you into going across, and you wouldn't go across unless I told you a lie, I thought. So in that case, I had to tell you a lie to get you to take care of yourself. But there's other cases where you can ask me questions and where the truth, my truth, might be harmful to you. And I might say, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that to do so may tend to incriminate me. I say that quite often, actually.

[17:29]

How you doing? Yeah. Doing good? Good. Good. Yes. I have all the plants that we all have. Projections now and in the future. My concentration is very good. And I get these great purple that are busy and they start going down to a little one and then it shows up again. It feels pretty good, but it's very distracting. And sometimes I start counting down. And sometimes the whole wall turns purple. And I don't know, it really kind of bothers me a little bit. But it sometimes feels good, and sometimes I'm not concentrating.

[18:29]

It feels like it's a red purple thing. And sometimes I concentrate like this is a red purple thing. Did you say red, purple? Yeah, excuse me. Again, purple thing is like that round circle that is that color, you know, with the navy blue and sort of the purple, that's the color. Kind of the purple thing, you know. So either way, I, you know, certainly track you with projects or if I was concentrating on the purple... So, if the circle goes away, you start thinking of your projects? Usually, when they go away, something else starts showing up. Yeah, well, definitely. But I just wonder what it was. Is it usually projects? Could be projects, or could be something in the past, or could be some noise around that I pay attention to, or...

[19:38]

Any instructions that get me out of that realm of concentration that I'm having. Okay. So did you have a question about all this situation? Yeah, I would like to know how do I, what would be the best way to do it? The purple thing? Well... Yeah, it comes from... And then they kept going down, down, down, down. Well, what have you been hearing me say about how to deal with anything? Just to observe it and keep reading and not getting involved with that. Yeah. In other words, be upright. If you're thinking about this, be upright.

[20:42]

If you're thinking about that, be upright. If you're thinking about that, be upright. If you're thinking about that, be upright. Whatever it is, be upright. In other words, be gentle and loving and respectful. Just sit. Now, some people, when they practice in the zendo, they don't just sit. They have various things they like to do, like they like to think about work or they like to get concentrated. Well, that's fine. It's a free country. But the practice of the Buddha is just to sit. The Buddha might think of various projects too, but that's just the Buddha thinking of various projects. That's not the Buddha's practice. As a matter of fact, the Buddha is actually thinking about the projects that everybody in the universe is thinking of. But that's not... Actually, that is the Buddha's practice. It's everybody's mind But the way to enter Buddha's mind, which is not to think about your projects or my projects, but to think about everybody's mind, to be interconnected with all beings, the way to enter that is just to be upright.

[21:48]

And then you enter into the realm of awareness where your projects are my projects. It isn't like most people are thinking about their projects because they're concerned about their projects. or the projects of their friends. But the Buddha's mind is not to think about other people's projects but realize that other people's projects are really your projects and your projects are really other people's projects. This is called freedom from your own projects. And also freedom from your own visions. And the way to get free of your own visions is just to sit upright with your visions. not to try to bring these visions back and make those go. But to bring these back and make those go is just another project. So you also don't try to get rid of the project of making these come and those go. You just lovingly attend to the fact that somebody here is trying to reorganize and arrange this world in the way that she thinks is best.

[23:00]

She's doing that. She's on a project trip. And she calls it this and she calls it that. She calls it planning, she calls it meditation, you know. There's infinite names for the trips that people go on called thinking, called karma, called being busy. Infinite names. You told me about some of your stories, some of your projects. And then the other special project called the purple discs project. Okay? That's being busy. At that time, don't forget that there's somebody who's not busy. So I don't say get rid of those busy ones. They're fine. They keep the monastery clean and dirty. Okay? That's fine. But there should be the one who just sits there and doesn't tamper with anything, too. All right? So you got the busy one, got the unbusy one, and the busy one and the unbusy one together open up to the big one.

[24:07]

Which, you know, you can say whatever you want. It's called bliss and peace and wisdom and compassion. So, purple discs, being upright. Projects, path, future, being upright. Door opens to dharma. Is it difficult to be upright in the midst of very interesting projects? Yes. Is it difficult to be upright in the midst of uninteresting projects? Yes. Is it difficult to be upright, period? Yes. Why? Because we're not skillful at being upright. We're skillful at leaning into all these different trips. And we're also unskillful at leaning into all these different trips. What we have to develop is this loving, non-judgmental, unprejudiced heart

[25:15]

which is nothing at all. It's always there. We need to discover that and develop that, along with the great circus. Okay? So your questions are two varieties of the same basic question. Did you have your hand raised? Yes? You kind of already answered it. Oh, okay. What's the next question? All right. And then I look at that and I go, oh, that's not very nice.

[26:20]

Loving, loving though. Oh, that's not very nice is another kind of thinking. Right. Okay. Right. And then, so then my, what I think is not thinking. My, I think, oh, I love it. So I go, oh, it's not nice thinking. Yeah. But then that kind of thinking too. It is, but it's getting closer. Because then I feel like it's kind of fake. Well, it's only a fake non-thinking, but it's a real thinking. And, like that guy was saying yesterday, what was he saying? He was saying, can you parody your thinking or parody yourself? You know, mime yourself? The last one, the last kind of thinking was in some ways closer to non-thinking than the other ones. Huh? Huh? I feel like a good mother. Yeah, right. It's closer in a way because it's loving. I mean, it has the idea of loving. The one of like, get that thought of breakfast out of here. In other words, anger is worse than attachment.

[27:25]

It's worse to go around the airport beating your kid up than to hold on to your kid too close. Holding on too close is not right either. But if you're going to err, err on the side of compassion. Err on the side of attachment and affection rather than on the side of anger. So the gentle loving maybe will come with more guilt. The true love will come with the kind of, you know, parodies of love. You know, our satires on love. Like, oh, nice little thought of breakfast. That's not true love. True love is thought of breakfast, is thought of breakfast. And therefore, thought of breakfast is not thought of breakfast. Blinding light. When love is really there, you just let the thing be what it is.

[28:30]

That's real love. And then when you let it be itself so much that you realize it's not what you thought it was in the first place. And then you get this big reward for your love, namely realizing what's really there. Then the door opens. So you got your thinking, but try to be nice. Try to be kind. Try to be loving. And all those ways of trying gradually will settle down into actually being with what it is. Just like in a relationship. You try to be nice and you try to be nice. You try to be loving and you try to be loving. And finally, there's just, you're there and he's there. And that's it. You don't add or subtract anything. And you can face that reality. But as you get closer to that, it's difficult because you start doing these kind of cheap tricks. And you start feeling even more anxious You feel like you're tampering with, you're doing this phony love. If you're going to do something phony, how about phony hate?

[29:36]

That's better, right? But don't defile love. But you have to, to learn how to do it. So by trial and error, you finally find a way, just really the most respectful thing, the most respectful way to be with somebody is to let them be themselves. and not mess with them. And the same with your own thoughts, your own thinking. The most respectful, loving way to be with your thinking is to let it be exactly what it is. Not approximately. Not more, not less. But in order for it to be exactly what it is, you have to be really close. Close and don't do anything to it. It's easy to leave things alone when they're far away. Well, sometimes not so easy, but... It's relatively easy to leave things alone when they're far away. When you get close to someone or something and devote yourself to it, then you're tempted to mess with it because, oh, my thinking is almost like, boy, that was really a nice one.

[30:36]

And if I just check a little bit, it would be like a glorious thought. You know, so you craft it. And finally you get a great thought. And this is kind of like very close to poetry. But a great poet might come and say, that's phony. You took what you had and destroyed it and called it a poem. A real poem comes from the place of leaving things alone. And it doesn't belong to you. But when you have your own thoughts and you try to craft them into really nice thoughts, it looks sometimes really good, but it's very hard to tell the difference between a fake poem and a real poem. Because fake poems often look more like real poems than real poems do. Fake people look sometimes more like real people than real people do. Real people sometimes look totally like not what they're supposed to look like. Namely, everybody you know.

[31:40]

That's why every thought you have is not quite what it's supposed to be. That's why you're trying to fix everybody. Starting with yourself. Buddha is not trying to fix us. Buddha is just trying to help us wake up. Buddha is not trying to fix us. Buddha is trying to help us let go of our ideas about what we should be. But part of what we are is that we have ideas about what we should be. That's just part of our thing. It's natural. It's like having a lot of hair on your head. It's just natural. Okay? So just keep working at it. And your sense that it's a little off, that's another thinking. And then be upright with that thought. And then maybe you can be upright with the thought that you're not upright.

[32:43]

Or maybe you kind of like try to reject your thought that you're not upright, which is another not upright. Or maybe you can like your thought that you're not upright, which is another not upright. And finally you find the balanced place. And when you find it, you might not even notice it. But it's there. And it gets stronger. And pretty soon it just takes over. Not pretty soon, but it takes over gradually. The non-thinking pervades your life. It starts to go deeper and be more and more realized. But it takes a lot of practice Yes? I wanted to ask you about yoga and how to integrate that into all this. I was reading something last night about awakening the energy of the spine and how you, that energy is the energy that passes on to the next, to the next realm.

[33:47]

And they were using an example of a gorilla. A gorilla trying to kill like a person. have to think like a person, and then in possibly two or three lives, it becomes a person. But we are all these people, so I guess we're trying to become something else in the next life. Also, I think like a Buddha will gradually be a Buddha. Right? But how does that play into the energy of the spine or if you're familiar with it? Well, you know, if you'll excuse me for, like, telling you what it means when it says in some book, awaken the energy of the spine, for me to come in and tell you what that means. I never read the book, and I really don't know anything about what it's talking about, but do you want me to tell you what it means?

[34:52]

Well, just like somebody asked me a little while ago, they said, well, the self... you know, like the isolated self, that's like what the Christians think the soul is, like the eternal soul. That's like the self. And I said, well, you know, maybe that's not what Jesus or, you know, some enlightened Christians meant by the soul. Maybe that's not what they meant. Maybe what they meant by the soul was actually the interdependence of everything. So everything, you know, like microphones, dogs, male and female humans, They all have an interdependent nature. We all have the same nature. Our nature is that we're interdependent. And therefore, our nature is that our whole personality, our whole body, our whole mind, and every part of our body and mind is interdependent. And therefore, no part of us or no whole of us has any, like, inherent core.

[35:55]

And that ungraspable, non-inherent, radiant interdependence is our nature. And you could call that the soul. And some Christians understand that is the soul. And that is eternal. And it's the same for all of us. And that soul is all-pervasive, and it lives in every person. And in a sense, then, it is the soul at that place as manifested in that formation, and this formation, and this formation, and that feeling, and this feeling, and that feeling. So everything has this energy. That's the energy of the spine that they're talking about. If you can find the interdependent nature of the spine, you've tapped into your nature, your interdependent nature, And that is eternal.

[37:04]

So you sit in meditation, or you do yoga exercises, and you've got a spine there. And the spine you work with for the first 37 years of practice is not the energy of the spine, not the interdependent spine, but the isolated independent spine. You know, your spine, which is not my spine, you work with that spine. For many years you work with that spine. And it hurts and it doesn't hurt. And it goes into this position and that position. And you're aware of part of it or all of it. Or you forget it entirely. Anyway, you work with it. In other words, you think about it. You do karma with it. but over the time become more and more intimate with this spine. This spine, this isolated spine, this isolated spine is only going to last for a little while longer. Depends on, you know, your burial procedures.

[38:12]

Some people's spines are going to be ground up into dust pretty soon. Other people are going to get buried. Some people maybe, you know, have themselves lacquered. But anyway, there's different properties. But still this spine is not going to last for very long. This is your individual isolated spine, the one you take care of with your karma. Okay? But as you become more and more intimate with this spine, like, you know, if you lovingly care for your spine, okay, you come down to when you finally, like, just let your spine be your spine. But again, some people say, okay, I let my spine be my spine. No, it's not that easy. Okay? you've got to get intimate with your spine and then let it be your spine. So people who don't pay attention to their spine, they just walk around and say, hey, I'm not messing with my spine. But they're so far away from their spine that they're not tempted to do anything with it because they're not close to it. But when you get close to it, you start to notice things about it that you would like to fix. For example, little tiny pains here and there. But if you don't even know your spine because for whatever reason you've got other problems, you can leave it alone.

[39:23]

But when you get intimate with it and leave it alone, then you realize the spine that's not your spine. You realize the interdependent spine, which doesn't belong to anybody. It doesn't belong to you or you or me. But it belongs as much to you as it does to me. My interdependent spine is not owned by me. However, I might be the first kid on the block to find it. Because you're not necessarily working with your spine as much as I'm working with mine. But if I work with my spine, my individual spine, and I find my interdependent spine, I also find all your spines. Because my interdependent spine is connected to all your interdependent spines. That's what I discover. That's the light of the spine. That's the energy of the spine. And that goes on forever. And if you find that spine, you're a buddha. Oh, yes.

[40:30]

Congratulations. You see, he doesn't need a chair anymore. Yeah, bite it. Go ahead. You bit it and made it work? Such a... Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I'd kind of like to get back to the previous question of what happened in meditation. What happens when you don't go, or when I don't go? And I can't let that go because, I mean, I can't stay with it because I would be falling on my feet. So I'd have to keep coming back to stay awake. You can't do what? You doze off and what? Stay with my dozing off. You can't stay with your dozing off?

[41:31]

Because I would fall off the feet and create commotion. Well, why don't you sit down on the floor? So the noise is the reason? Well, if you're dozing, what would I say to do with your dozing? If I stay with the dozing... Do I say stay with your dozing? Do I say stay with things? Is that what I say? Excuse me for asking about what I say, but... You say not to condemn it? Yeah, that's right. What else? Yeah, I'm not really condemning it. Okay, fine. Well, what else? I'm obligated to keep quiet or... You're obligated to keep quiet. Did you sign a contract to that effect? No. But if I want to be in harmony with the zendo, if everybody's in it, I need to be quiet and not, you know, disturbing the peace.

[42:34]

It's an obligation to me. Okay, so you feel an obligation. So here you are, sitting in the zendo, feeling your dozing, and then what? And then you don't condemn your dozing. Okay? Okay. Yeah, okay, so you've got the dozing plus the waking up. You've got dozing and waking up, and not condemning the dozing, right? And not condemning the waking up. Okay, that sounds fine. What? So you've got the non-condemning of the dozing, you've got the non-condemning of the waking up, and then you have the difficulty, and you don't condemn that either? So you got the not happy, you got the difficulty, you got the dozing, and you got the waking up. Okay? What do you do with all that? Yeah. You let the left foot in the right foot. You let the dozing be the dozing.

[43:36]

You let the waking up be the waking up. You let the non-condemning be the non-condemning. You let the difficulty be the difficulty. You let the not liking the difficulty be the not liking the difficulty. That's what you do. That's called being upright. That's called being loving. Okay? And if you can, in this particular scenario, if you can be like that, then the... Dozing will turn into the light of wisdom. The waking up will turn into the light of wisdom. The difficulty will turn into the light of wisdom. And the not liking it will turn into the light of wisdom. The door of truth will open through any of those phenomena if you can lovingly attend to it. Okay? Yeah. You're welcome. Are you awake? Are you awake? Yes. Keep wondering the same. When do we get to do something? Look at the tail. Such a good girl. Yes. Yeah.

[45:01]

Yes. I'm mean? I'm mean? I'm on the edge of mean or I'm mean? Huh? Huh? So what am I? Am I mean, on the edge of mean, or not mean? You're midget. A mischievous? Just plain old mischievous? Not on the edge of mischievous even? What is he, Ross? What? I'm not listening to her? What's she saying? She definitely wants me to throw it. You do want me to throw it, don't you? I do sometimes throw, you know. Yeah, good girl.

[46:06]

Now, when is she happiest? Is she happiest now? It is not hers. I threw it and she wasn't interested in it. She likes pine cones. Also, the nice thing about pine cones is also you can destroy them. You can chew them up. And your dad lets you destroy them. And... You said all these practices, okay?

[47:16]

All the practice. Yeah. So you notice I'm always giving basically the same answer to everything, right? Non-thinking. The unprejudiced meet everything in an unprejudiced but intimate way. Well, same thing. You can be prejudiced with things when you're not intimate with them. But when you're intimate with them, you can't figure out how to be prejudiced anymore. You can't figure out what direction to be prejudiced. But if you get a little distance, then you can get a prejudice, find a lot of applications for prejudice. The... The people who have been asking questions, I really appreciate that you asked these questions. But some people have not asked any questions in the group yet. And I thought I would like to encourage those who have not asked questions to reveal any questions that you might have.

[48:22]

I think I would appreciate that if those of you who have not would do so. And I won't say, or forever remain silent. Any questions from the people who have not been, or any comments or things you'd like to have discussed that people who haven't spoken would like to bring up? I was wondering if you'd reveal your system or keeping track of the number of times you found it in 10. What I did was I did it in blocks of 10. So first set of ten, second set of ten, third set of ten, and then I'll count the number of blocks of ten. So like, you know, counting to ten, one, counting to ten, ten times, one, two, three, four,

[49:32]

27, which means 270 blocks, 270 times counting to 10, for example. Or 27. Yeah, 27 is 270 times 10. 2,700 exhales. Or whatever, you know. Now, how do you check to see that you didn't lose count in the blocks of 10? I didn't check that. But, you know, things were pretty tight at that point. Yeah. And what? Right practice? No, there's no difference. Yes. Can you help me understand the difference between harmful and harmless as it relates to truth?

[50:39]

Harmful and harmless as it relates to truth? Yes. Like speaking the truth? Like speaking the truth. Well, can you think of an example? Or did you want me to think of an example? No, I actually have one. Okay, yes. I have someone in my department who I want to tell a truth. Yes. But it's a frightening truth. It's a what truth? Frightening. Could I ask you a question? Yes. Would it be all right with you if I threw this pine cone? Yes. Anybody have a problem with me throwing the pine cone? No. You do? Okay. It's a what? Say it again. What kind of truth is it? Frightening. You mean it's frightening to you? It's very frightening to me, and I would think it would be frightening. Could you tell me what the truth is?

[51:40]

She's drunk. That's a frightening truth to you? Or it's frightening that she's a drunk? Everything's frightening to me. Okay. So this person, you feel this person's a drunk. Yeah. And you're frightened about this situation. Because this person is coming up for tenure in two years. Yeah. And if she doesn't do something now, then there's no way that she will succeed, get tenure, be able to do what she needs to do. Because people know she's drinking, and because of that, they won't give her tenure. And she's not functioning very well. Her drinking is allowing her to prove herself about her writing. It's a whole cloud that surrounds her. Some people, however... who drink are fooled about their writing and write very well.

[52:47]

Like Faulkner, wouldn't he? Yeah, quite a few. This is true. They write better when they're drunk. But still. But this is not the kind of writing she's... But even so, still, maybe she shouldn't get tenure, even if she's a great writer. But anyway, you're concerned for her drinking, right? And you're concerned about mentioning that to her? Yeah. I feel I need to because I know that her friends are not going to mention it to me. And because she trusts me because I'm her chair, I should do that. So when you say mention it to her, would you mention it to her in the context of saying, There's something which I feel it might be beneficial for me to talk to you about, but only if you're receptive, only if you want to hear about it, because it's kind of a problem I have about your life.

[53:51]

But I think it might be beneficial to bring it up, but only if you're up to hear about something, about a problem I have. I'm having a difficult time. I'm worried about something concerning your life, but it might be real difficult for you to hear about my problem, because it relates to you. It's not, you know... it's not a it's not a congratulatory kind of perception i'm having and i wondered but i still think even though it's difficult i'm having difficulty i still think it might be helpful it might be helpful i'm not sure for me to share this with you i think it would but only if you if you want to talk only if you want to talk about it because that's generally the case And if she said yes, you might say, you know, are you sure you want to hear about this? You aren't doing this because you please me? You actually want to learn something about problems I'm having with you? If she says yes, say, well, the problem I have is that I, whatever you see, my perception is you do this.

[54:59]

And because of that perception, I'm chill. And I'm also troubled because not only do I care about this in general, but specifically I care about it because I'm in a position of, you know, working with your profession and your tenure, and all these feelings are played in there. And if I can't discuss this with you, then it's like a big block in the process of your professional life. And if she says to me... No, I don't think I want you to talk to me about that. That it's harmful. What's harmful? If I go ahead. If you go ahead, it probably won't be beneficial. I don't know if it would be harmful, but it probably won't be beneficial if she doesn't want to hear about it. But that would be the determinant. It wouldn't be my trying to say, well, it's harmful in that it's going to cause her a great deal of pain and anger and

[56:04]

What's harmful? If I tell her this. No. In the short run, if I didn't... Oh, well, it's harmful because it might drive her deeper into her problem. You might deepen her problem and cause her to be defensive. This is true. Sometimes, you know, the truth is there, you know, and sometimes if you push it on the person, they reject it. And then later when they could accept it, they can't because they feel they're pouting, kind of, you know. They're invested in rejecting them. Whereas if you wait until later, when they were ready, she likes to pull, too, back and forth. That's almost as good as chasing. The same goes for when you're teaching Dharma. The Buddha was once asked to teach the Dharma, more than once. And he said, no, I... I don't want to teach it because if I teach it, you're going to get perplexed and defensive, you know, and lose your faith.

[57:15]

Because what I have to teach is really, you know, turns out that what I have to teach is not what you think. My truth is not what you already think. It's kind of different from what you think. And it's going to like, it's going to require that you move a little bit in your thinking. It's going to be like a new perspective on things. And I don't think you really want it like... go through that change. So I don't want to say it. And then they beg him again. He says, no, no, you don't want to hear it. They beg him again. He says, oh, okay. And then a whole bunch of people walked out. And then he told people, and the people really wanted to hear it. It's like they really did want to hear it. It's like saying, are you ready for me to punch you in the stomach? Are you ready now, really? Are you ready now? Okay. Do you really want me to? And if you give it before that, then they reject it. But then later, when they might be open for it, then they say, well, I rejected it before. I don't want to admit that I was wrong. But if they hadn't rejected it, then they can say, okay, let's hear it now.

[58:19]

Or else you burst their spleen. Or you can burst their spleen. Or you burst their faith. You damage their faith. You damage their ability to open to the truth. by forcing it on them before they wanted it. And then you come back with this thing that they need and they can't take it because it was forced at the wrong time. So for Dharma teachers, you know, come in the form of like Zen priests or whatever, but also various friends who have some truth for you. And it... So to tell somebody that you're worried about their drinking, is really truthful and not harmful. But if it's at the wrong time, it's harmful. Basically, that's not a harmful thing to say to somebody, that you're worried about their drinking.

[59:21]

It's not harmful. And it's true, if you are. But if it's at the wrong time, it shouldn't be given. So I think in your case, it's the fourth category. I don't think it's really harmful to tell them. It's just not the right time. But you can prepare the ground for the right time, by getting the person's cooperation and encouragement. Well... not fulfill her responsibility as the leader of that person. I understand the gentleness and the timing, but if it's going to lead to a situation that could be even more harmful for the person, at some point she might decide to intervene.

[60:34]

You used the story of the drunk driver And you say, do you want me to tell you something? And the guy says, no. Are you going to wait until he's sober when you tell him? You see, I think you would say, you may not want to hear this, but you're drunk and you shouldn't drive. You may not want to hear this, but you're drinking too much and it's affecting your ability to be functional in our university. You may not want to hear this, but you came drunk last week and that doesn't work in our community. in our situation. It may be more harmful not to tell a person than to tell a person. And I'm not sure that the person is always the best judge of when the best time is to hear the message. And so I think it takes some real sensitivity on your part as to whether to tell them, even though they may say, I'm sorry, I don't want to hear it right now.

[61:35]

If you go up to the person and say, do you want to hear something from me about your situation? And then they would say no. Then you might say, well, I need to tell you something. And what I'm telling you is that I don't I don't want you to drive the car because I think you've been drinking too much. And they might say, well, I'm going to anyway. As a matter of fact, they might even say, actually, I wasn't going to drive, but now you tell me not to, I am going to. So you told them because you thought That it would be damaging not to tell them, but actually, because you told them they got in the car and drove away. Right. That's what I'm talking about.

[62:41]

Right. Well, just a second, just a second. So in Dee's case, she can do something, though, besides telling the person. To me, the person losing their job is not nearly as bad as the person not facing their alcoholism. So to tell the person that if the person comes to work drunk, to say, it doesn't work for me for you to come to work like this, that's different from asking the person if they want to talk about their problem. The case that I thought she was bringing up is not to tell the person just to say, you can't come to work drunk. That's different than to talk about the truth of the situation about her drinking. That's what I thought you were talking about. Not to just say, you know, you can't come to work drunk. So she can say, it doesn't work for you to come to work drunk, but there's another conversation which is not going to work for her to say, it doesn't work for you to come to work drunk.

[63:45]

That's different from actually addressing the problem, which the person is going to have to do if they're going to get the job. They're going to have to go into therapy or something to satisfy her and some other people. So it doesn't go necessarily from saying, this doesn't work, to going into therapy unless the person understands. And although there's certain things which I'm suggesting she might not bring up unless the person's up for it, she can keep bringing up her problem over and over. You can keep coming back again and again, but you can't necessarily get the person to look at the truth unless they're ready. But you can do other things which aren't that. So I'm saying there's certain things you withhold until the person's ready, but there's other things you can do that are different that they are ready for. Right? So you don't do this because it's not right time for this, but it is the right time for that. So you're actually not intervening in either case. Really, you're just offering, hopefully, the right thing to do at that time.

[64:49]

And there's some things which would be good sometime, which you see are not yet ready. And to do it ahead of time does not help. That's all I'm saying. You have to find the right time for that, the right time for this, the right time for this. So if she's coming to work, I think when a person comes to work drunk... it's the right time to tell them, you know, it doesn't work for you to do this. But there's other more subtle matters which you have to wait for some other time to do, and those are really the most important. Because those will be the transformative. These may be transformative if you're lucky, but she can do a lot besides, but I think there's something that she hasn't brought up yet which requires, you know, a special time. So... You know, does that make sense now? Yeah, right. Right, right.

[65:51]

Right, right, right. Yeah, so deep sensitivity is another word, you know, for love. Or intimacy. So, ideally, if you can get to intimacy with the person, the intimacy is what decides, not me. So you can be close to somebody even though they've got a problem. And intimacy might decide when it's time to do this or this. So you do care about this person, and the person's situation is troubling you. If you can get close to that, then from that intimacy, from that, as you say, sensitivity, the appropriate response will come. But the response, one of the things you think are necessary for that person may not come out of the intimacy. Well, a certain kind of conversation, the intimacy maybe wouldn't say, go do it now.

[67:04]

Just like intimacy between people in other realms, there's certain things which you can do together out of intimacy. Like you can be intimate with a child or intimate with a dog, but certain things follow from that intimacy which don't follow from another relationship. Or put the other way, there's certain things about intimacy between adults that would follow but wouldn't follow from intimacy with a child. And intimacy knows that. It knows what to do. So if you can become intimate with this person, then you can see what is appropriate for that person, which might be not appropriate for somebody else, and for what's appropriate for somebody else might not be appropriate for that person. So I guess lovingly move closer to the person is the main thing. Accepting them, yeah. You can't get closer than if you don't accept them because you don't know where they are. Great.

[68:35]

to trust the intimacy rather than their own personal views. And that's what sometimes people do in mediation situations, right? They agree to accept the conclusion, even though it's maybe not what either one of them are trying to get. In a lawsuit, it's like this view is fighting that view, and one of those views wins. But in mediation, as you go deeper and develop more trust, you say, now we're getting to a point where, could you... Both accept something different from what either one of you want and let the process decide, which will probably not be what either one of you want. But if you let the process decide, we will come to a conclusion and there will be something to work with. So intimacy, what intimacy decides may be true, and you may know it's true, but it's not what I wanted. And you may feel like, I know it's the right answer. I know it was the right thing, but now I have to deal with the fact that it's hard. The right thing is hard. But yet you somehow know that it's the right thing.

[70:18]

That it not being the way you wanted was not the right thing. But it's probably not the way the other people wanted it either. It might have been, though. In that case, you get the truth that you didn't want, and they get the non-truth that they wanted. So you feel sorry for them, but you accept it, and they're happy. Anything else from the people who have not? Yes. I just have a question on one of the terms. You used the term Dharma and I'm not really sure what that means or it's used in the morning in the service. It has many meanings. One meaning is truth. The truth of, you know, the truth. And then there's like Buddha Dharma, the Buddha's truth. There's various kinds of truth. It could be scientific Dharma. The truth would be... Would it be a synonym for it?

[71:20]

Truth is a synonym, yes. Another word, another meaning for Dharma is teaching. The Buddha's teaching and the Buddha's truth are very, almost synonymous, but slightly different meaning. The truth of the Buddha and the way the Buddha teaches are somewhat different. Like, the truth of the Buddha is the truth that woke the Buddha up. It's what the Buddha saw when the Buddha became Buddha. Then the Buddha tries to teach the truth, but the way the Buddha teaches the truth may be adapted somewhat for different people, so the truth can vary in its presentation. That's the teaching of the Dharma. Another meaning of Dharma is actually a phenomenon. Some actually phenomenon, like some form of thinking or action. Like a pain is a Dharma. A pleasure is a Dharma. A chirping sound. A sound is a dharma. A smell is a dharma. A taste is a dharma. An emotion is a dharma. These are all dharmas. And the connection between dharma as phenomenon and dharma as truth is that when you approach a phenomenal dharma with the right attitude, the truth dharma manifests.

[72:33]

So dharma doors, doors to truth, are both the phenomena, the phenomena is the door, but also, and so it's a dharma door in the sense that it's a phenomenal door, but also it's a door to the truth of the phenomena. So the word dharma is kind of like very dynamic. It's the truth that releases and it's the teaching that guides us to the truth that releases and it's the phenomena that we use to pay attention to, to see the truth that releases us. Does that make sense? Parts of it. Dharma also, I think, has the root of dar or something like that, which means to support or carry. So a dharma is something that carries something for us in spiritual practice. It's about 11.30, right?

[73:44]

So shall we adjourn? It seems like you're willing to adjourn. Yes? Would there be a question? Yes. So I often ask people to write a poem, a short poem, as part of the workshop and present it at the end of the workshop. And the form of the poem that I suggest is what's called a haiku, which is 17 syllables, not 17 words. 17 syllables. And so it's sometimes thought of as five syllables, seven syllables, five syllables, but of course they run together, so it's really 17 syllables, but sometimes presented in three lines. And a haiku is something that's based on some experience. So it's not just that you sit here and maybe think of something to say, but in the next day, like just now, did you hear that blue jay?

[74:54]

Did you hear the people say, mm-hmm? So those were experiences. Or like, can you see the light in the middle of the room with the fan spinning in it? That's an experience. or your butt touching the chair, that's an experience. So, some experience that you have that you would like to, like, express something about what happened at the time of that experience, or what, something that, something, something that happened to you during this week, or some other time, but this week is nice, or even, like, Something that happens today. That you might use rather concrete, ordinary, physical images to convey what happened. The sun got chopped up by the fan.

[75:59]

My heart quivered. Rhythmically. That was probably a haiku. Two more syllables. Well, it's okay to fiddle a little bit. Squeeze another syllable. Anyway, that's an example. That was pretty much all physical imagery. Usually you don't say, I said my. It's okay to say my. My. And you can say, you know, proper names like Tazahar or Tom or something, you can say that too. Okay? So if you would do that, then we could recite that. And what we often have on the last morning here is we get together and recite our poems in the Founders Hall. And also, I would have another assignment for you this time, and that would be since we're studying karma since karma is about thinking or you know and also in thinking about the overall intention or design of your mind i thought it might be good if if you would think about what think about and observe if as a result of this study if now there is a design in your mind

[77:28]

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