about this, you know, this isn't going well, or I'm really enjoying our friendship, or our working together, even if we say that, you know, so it's not always about bad stuff, but we really need to be a little bit more direct sometimes about me and you, what's happening with us, between us. So these are ways of being mutual. This is what we're really called to, and I think this is what we can promise each other. I think that we'll be, as all those other things, we will be respectful, and trying to understand the reality of another person. We'll try to be respectful and offer our own reality. And we will be self-disclosing at varying levels. And by the way, as we live together longer, it has to deepen. We can't just be at the same levels. We'll deepen our levels of self-disclosure. We're going to listen empathically. You don't have to fix it. And remember we said that's a real temptation on men's part to fix it. You're not about fixing. You're just to take it in and let me know that I haven't hurt. You will challenge me to greatness sometimes.

[01:01]

And I'll be challenged sometimes by a confrontation, sometimes by listening to your story, sometimes by some common information. I'm willing to be changed and grow and become more. And that's it. I'm willing to be challenged and to grow and change. We're all in the market of growing and changing. And then finally, sometimes we're going to have a more me and you kind of conversation. Because that's what's required at that time. And then the cycle just keeps going. You just keep repeating stuff. Self-disclosure, empathy. The only other word I may add here, and I just think it was a grace of the retreat I was just on, is really to gently, really call to his youth to practice gentleness. I think we need to get a little bit more gentle with one another, and I think we would be more like the person of Jesus. As I read some of the scriptures, and I think one of the ways, one of the insights that I had in retreat, and I thought it was an original one, it was just something I read and shared, is that sometimes the way Jesus was gentle is he really, he met people where they were, and I'm thinking of the story of Thomas.

[02:18]

You know, we all get the Dougie and Thomas stories, but really, he accepted the fact that Thomas was needed proof. And he didn't, he just walked in there on that second time. By the way, knock on the door again, you know. He had already been there, he was so bad, knock on the door again, could be let in. And he goes up to Congress and he says, here, do this. It's okay, put your fingers in, put your hand in, if that's what you need to do, it's okay. And talk about just being, letting Thomas be Thomas, you know, and then inviting him to, and then he says, he does challenge him to greatness, and he says, you know, there's other people who have vaccines, and they believe. So he doesn't leave him in that place. But he starts with them in that very place where he needs to put his humility. He has to test it. He does not believe without some proof. And then he takes them to a greater place.

[03:20]

And I think that's what we have to do with each other. We meet each other where we really are and invite each other with greatness, challenge each other with greatness. But that's this first part about understanding. And it doesn't mean we all, you know, people don't have to change, but we have to be there with them first. And we say, okay, I think that's what Jesus ever promised. He said, Okay, I'll meet you there, but I'm not letting you stay there. So I think that was a powerful insight for me to realize that Jesus comes in a very human way of being in relationship. He invites us to do the same. He invites us to do the same. This is how he was, and this is what he said. He said, do this, and then he said, do the same. So that's what I invited you to think about, about, you know, what's real, what's real in community. I mean, you know, it wouldn't be great if we were all friends, but that's not gonna happen, you know, it's not real. But we can, I think, promise each other to be more mutual with one another, and that these require some skills and some really kind of stretching ourselves a bit.

[04:25]

So what do you think? That's my invitation, right? Somebody pointed out a very beautiful word, understand. I can't seem to look up to him. I don't think Jesus looking up to us at all. I can't seem to look up to him. [...] I can When I was thinking earlier in these relationships, I've heard it said that men fear most of all being rejected. Is that your experience? Yes, it is true, even though I think men tend to say, not me Annie, I don't care.

[05:28]

You know, I don't care if she likes me or not, or he likes me or not. But it's true. And the article I gave you on male intimacy, he talks about that as a tremendous fear that a lot of men have, that I won't be, I will be rejected. So rather than go through that or have that potentially happen, it's stay back, keep the walls up, keep the distance. So yes. And what's interesting, sometimes what happens at St. Vince's, we watch the guys who come off and broken, you know, they're struggling, they come and you watch them really kind of form relationships and connect with one another and you just watch a whole different thing happen. Because they are, you know, they sort of, they're more honest with each other. And more willing to risk being in that kind of relationship. But yes, I think it is fear. And that's a good question to ask. How fearful am I of letting the other guys in this room in? Or letting anybody in? How fearful am I?

[06:29]

So, how fearful am I? You know, and... How many times, you know, Jesus didn't talk about sexuality very much, but how many times did he tell us not to be afraid? I mean, many, many times. And I think he knew, he said it because they needed to hear it so they don't be afraid. You know, open up, be in a relationship with each other. Take some risks. Yeah, it'll be messy sometimes. You know, it won't always be neatly cleaned. It's okay. But remember, God gave us this incredible divine energy for connection. And we need to connect in various ways, and we need to connect among us. Anything else? There's just kind of circulating out there that you're thinking about with regard to maybe what we owe each other, mutuality. It meant a lot to me this afternoon.

[07:35]

You said it very briefly because probably it's so matter-of-fact. You said people have to let others grow old. I think it came because Brother Lola said when he came here that he's 19, his siblings were still considering him as 19 years old. I think that can harm a community very much when someone is not allowed, as you said, to change. You said that explicitly. Somebody did something a couple of years ago, and it's never forgotten that person. And I think that's terribly harmful. I've witnessed it, that nobody's allowed something happen even 20 years ago, and that sticks in the person's mind. And there's no change allowed. I don't know where we would be, of course.

[08:38]

But I mean, that struck me. It's probably... Or, you know, I guess you turn it from time to time, I think that is the answer to something. It's always the... That's right. That's right. And I think we have to pay attention if we're doing that, if we're keeping people in boxes or keeping people, not letting them change. And also I think the notion of forgiveness is a huge one. It's central to the Gospel that we have. Who are we not to practice it? Who are we not to be called to be forgiven? Interesting though, big interest now in psychology and forgiveness. Huge research, all kinds of things going on about forgiveness. Because people, from a psychological perspective, it's necessary that we let people off the hook. live again, you know, and we really free them from any guilt, because guilt is a terribly disruptive thing.

[09:42]

Terribly hard to carry guilt and live a joyful life, you know. So it's really, there's a lot of interest now in forgiveness. And one of the pieces, I'll just share this one piece, in order to really forgive, this is a powerful piece, and it's being showed up over and over again by even personal stories, You have to be able to empathize with the person who hurt you. That means you have to be able to put yourself in their shoes and potentially and to see how they could have done what they did. It doesn't mean what they did is right. It doesn't condone, especially if they're hurtful, abusive and all that, but to understand that how they could have done that. And that's what it requires, real empathy, the capacity to say, oh, I could see how that could happen in this person's life. Never condoning what they did, especially if it's abusive and hurtful. But, you know what I mean?

[10:43]

And that's it. Again, this whole thing about empathy, a critical skill. We're talking right here. If anything, if we could get better at that, walking in another person's shoes, understanding how they could have done what they did, and never condoning what they did. That's right. It just amazed me. The people that have hurt me most in my life, and it seemed, you know, that I had done it to the best of hurtful ones, that were afraid. I was just thinking of that, you know, just what you're saying, I looked over and they were fearful of their position in some way, and I was a threat, you know, I didn't intend to be, and they were all afraid, so it helps them to remember these poor people, they were much in pain. Yeah, right. And what do people do when they're afraid sometimes? They can act out for others, and that way, if you can empathize, then you can let them go. By the way, the person who forgives is the person who gains the most.

[11:44]

Because you let them go. You're no longer carrying them. So, it is an important thing, y'all. And we need to get better at it because the gospel, it's so central to the gospel of Jesus. And that's what he came to tell us. He can't just show us how to be. We don't need to imitate what he did. We need to be how he was in his time. We need to be that way in this time. And so forgiveness, gentleness, compassion, all the big things that we have to call into practice from. Do you think we'll need a new church? We'll need a new church because... We have a section of poor people who've been hurt or who've been in trouble. They just kicked out. And that's not forgiveness. No, that's one of the tragedies of this time. It's not, you know, we're in a delicate place, you know.

[12:48]

I think one of the real tragedies is that everybody got put in the same box, you know. It's all or nothing, you know. That's a tragedy. I think that was a mistake, you know. I don't think the bishops knew what else to do to get out of the pressure from the media and from the laity. People were outraged and still are outraged, you know. So, and I'm not condoling the bishops. I think they made the poor decisions to be truthful. So I think it's... It was a hard place to be. And then the zero tolerance policy put everybody in the same box. It doesn't seem to allow any room for growth. change psychological and forgiveness. And those are things that are critical I think. I think who we are, we need to ask that. I don't know what we're going to do to recover from that. Kind of when you reincorporate those, remember that that's who we are. I am.

[13:49]

And that's true. Right. It's also true in many dioceses that the bishop never talked together, the whole group, about what was happening. the cost, the impact. The bishops who did have a general relationship with their men, but there are many bishops who never gathered their men to talk about it. That's, again, they feel betrayed, they feel like a human being. So that's again part of the poor handling of I'm sure they did the best they could, but we're seeing the consequences of a really poor choice this year. Do you see any... I thought that there was one place I had heard... Rockfield Center, the parish there, they knew that their priest, you know, had abuse.

[14:52]

They were supporting him because he was helping them and they were watching him at the same time and good relationship, you know. They didn't want him to go. The bishop, you know, was following the principle and Yes, there have been a couple of cases like that. There was a case in Chicago with one of the black priests who was welcomed back to the parish. He apologized to the parish. The parish knew the story. There was no hiding any piece of it. And they said to him, we will support you. We will help you stay healthy, etc. And he had been functioning for many years, several years in the parish with all of this material down and he was removed as well. because of the one strike you're opening of that policy. So, again, when you only have one thing, everybody sort of sits in the same box, you know. Hence the rigid. It is rigid. It is. And it's not, even, by the way, you know, I know people can say, well, you know, you folks treat these people, but these are, we talk to secular folks, you know, who have nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

[16:01]

Fred Buran is one of the big who treats persons with sexual disorders or, you know, attractions of children or whatever. And he said, he's not offering, he's not trying to beat up the church, he has no vested interest in that. He said it's just a policy that's probably, that it's just, he understands why it was made, but that it's such a blanket, all or nothing kind of, everybody in the same boat, makes no sense. Makes no sense from a sound psychological perspective, nor from our perspective as you know, as Christians, but that's where we're at right now, which makes it very difficult. Isn't that what happens to be a massive control? Because that's what happened with three strikes and you're out. People wanted law and order, so you come up with three strikes and you're out. Well, I do think it was a way of appeasing the media and the outrage, you know, is to say, okay, we'll do this, you know, we'll make a definitive step here.

[17:02]

And I think that's what they were trying to do, back all the criticism. And I think there's a notion of, let's get on with it. Let's do this. And then we can go back to life as it was. which is probably the biggest mistake, because we will never go back to life as it was. We need to live through this. This is our ministry right now, living, suffering through a lot of brokenness, a lot of hurt, a lot of mistrust, and seeing where it's calling us as a people and as a church, you know, and we are the church now. Where is it calling us to? What needs to happen differently? So it's, I think it's a false notion to say, well, let's get this title and I'm going to get out of my factory. No, no, this is it. And this is going to be it for a while. I thought there was some hope when the Pope had a commission of non-Catholic psychiatrists, psychologists and all that. And they said the American church went too far. And but that doesn't seem to transpire on the American vision.

[18:09]

Well, you know, I mean, and there's so much pressure on to be truthful to any any hint of not following through and keeping this very rigid policy. They're going to get nailed. You know, it's sort of like a catch 22. If they if they don't, they're going to get nailed. And if they do, they're like, you know, they're losing. There's a lot of mistrust from the priests, you know, there's a lot of upsetness within the clergy about this, they don't feel heard, they don't feel included, you know, they don't feel like they matter. So we have a morale issue rising, I think, and it's been rising, you know, and then we have the media saying if they make one step other than doing this, zero tolerance, we're going to come in and come and get you. So they're in a very tight place. I mean, it's not an easy place, you know. I'll probably segue to that, but it's important that we talk a little bit. It's part of our reality, your reality. I mean, it is impacting all of us. And that's true, you know, it impacts all of us. I've had lay people say to me, I'm embarrassed. I feel ashamed that this is happening to our church, you know.

[19:12]

I mean, really, these are people who have committed, committed lay people who are just beside themselves, trying to figure out what to do. My good friend Bob, the one I talked about, he's a very strong, he's a high and wealthy, he does all that stuff, you know, he's a wealthy man. And I had breakfast with him on Sunday and he said to me, I don't know what to think. And he said, I'm just so frustrated with the choices that have been made and everything. And I said to him, you know, this is a time of real rethinking what it means to be church and how we are church as well. And so I encourage him to stay in the conversation there because he is a good man. And we'll call for some justice and some truth. And at the same time, he's suffering. And his kids, he's got four 25 to 30-year-old kids. And he worries about them. He said, because they're right on the edge of leaving the church. And that's what he worries about. He said, I'm going to be OK. My kids, I wonder if they're in.

[20:15]

And right now, especially with their home, they all go to church. They're wonderful kids. They're a wonderful family. But I can understand his worries. you know, these really great artisans, will they have a stable life? How much will they benefit? I've said to them, they'll be fine. They've brought them up well. But it is challenging for young people who say, well, you know, I'm not going to hang around in this. They don't have as much investment as a parent does sometimes, you know. But that's the other strange phenomenon, that this didn't take two generations just to happen like that. Worldwide, practically, one parent. The main, you know, People, my friends, they were not, they were very chauvinists, but they were radical. But the kids don't like that. And sometimes people say the way the priest says that, you can't ask the kids to go. But anyway, that's the other side of it. And then you'll see everything on the news and things like that. And it's just, it seems to be, it's just all of a sudden, bang, it happened. And there had to be a build-up of some sort, but it's, I mean, we should go back to World War II, but anyway.

[21:18]

But anyway, it really is. Yes. These kids that I talk to, they're very much into these kids that have been Jesuit volunteers. We're talking about generous young people, you know, everybody, and they're just right on the edge saying, you know, I'm not going to go there. They're hypocrites. I mean, you know, we'll watch them kind of struggle a bit. Right. I don't know. I don't know. It's interesting. We have more Catholics than ever, as you know. We have more Catholics than ever. We have fewer than going to the liturgy. Sunday Mass is way down. And we have fewer priests, you know, so it's an interesting... Hush week, what does that do to the curse? Maybe it's a blessing. We're certainly there, you know. It's an interesting time. It's hard because there are other issues too, like the war and things like that, that are playing up with young people. Well, not just young people, but a lot of people.

[22:22]

And it's easy to get disillusioned all of a sudden on things like that. But I guess it's just, well I shouldn't say I guess, I know it's trusting in God that's the idea. Yeah, and I think really listening to the invitation of this time, and what are we called, who are we called to be now, and it is a very anxious time, and that's why I think, not that this is simplistic, but I think that's right, I think that's why we have a great rise in fundamentalism. Simple answer. Absolutely. It's very anxious, it's a very anxious time, and so if you'll tell me that this is right, you know, I'll be, this is the way to do it, I'll go there. And so we have a hope of them, they're not, they're not, not bright. They're intelligent, but there's an anxiety in them that they try to take care of sometimes with some short answer. But it's interesting because there are more than one type of evangelicals. Right. We get the Sojourner's Magazine, and that's quite different.

[23:26]

I was in the Catholic Orphanage. Well, the director, Peter Mark Farren, director, was friends with Jim. I don't dare try to think of his last name. Anyway, but they are evangelical Christians, but they don't seem to have the simple answers. They have the harder answers. Really hit the nail on the head, I think, sometimes. My whole family is evangelical, would not agree with this. No? For sure? Yeah. I would like my sister to read the magazine, but I'm not going to. I've prayed about it. I was told you don't force it, you just pray and you just hope that somehow, someway, which they're probably doing, me too, Not for living in the monastery, but my political opinion. You know, the Lord of the Rings is very popular, as you know, it's very popular and everything, and it's interesting because fundamentally the Lord of the Rings, there's a couple of basic messages, you know, and one of the messages is that life is a journey, you know, and other messages, one of the profound messages, there are several ways to get

[24:50]

to the end. You have to discover the paths, you know. And then the other one, the message that I think is so profound and so much fits with what we're talking about, is the other message is, you don't do this without companions. Nobody does the journey of the Lord of the Rings without companions. So it's a powerful movie, a powerful trilogy, you know, really well done, that really highlights journey, There are multiple pathways, you know, and you have to discover the pathway. Sometimes you get a little lost, you know. And then the final piece, you know, we don't do this by ourselves. What a wonderful way we can really help our young people. And that's what will keep young people connected to us, if we speak, which is really the gospel, you know, if we speak them. Tell them that Jesus came to tell us who God is, and He's a great figure, not this little one that we sometimes the counter and checker, you know. Anyway, well, thank you for this evening and we will see you in the morning.

[25:53]

This is the last one, last conversation in the morning and then I'll be off and you'll be, hopefully, have sun. Thanks much. Two things, really, and then we'll see if you have any questions, do two things, see what kind of questions you have, and that'll be a way of, and then we'll talk a little bit, do a little concluding, you know. The first thing I'd like to talk about is, what a lot of people say is, well, what does it look like if we were perfectly together? which none of us are, but if we were perfectly together, what does integrated sexuality look like? In other words, what would we want, where are all the components of integrated sexuality? And then we'll talk about where some unintegration happens, you know, where the possibilities are. And then the last piece I'd like to do is I'd like to spend a little time on what we call emotional intelligence, which has to do with your feeling life. And in particular, I'd like to share with you the components of what we call, you know, we use new lingo, but emotional intelligence.

[26:55]

So what does it mean to really be aware of your feelings and other people's feelings? What are the components? And there are six that I'd like to just kind of let you get a look at. And again, we always ask, How am I doing with each of those areas? And I think, you know, I haven't met anybody who's totally integrated, who has it all together, so it's a nice way to say, look at the areas, see which ones you're better at than others, and then which ones you might want to work on a little, because we're always working on something, you know, I think. And then I'll share a particular comment of void feelings, and they're like, eight or nine things that men have learned to do that really take you out of your feeling realm. And that might help this, because this emotional intelligence stuff is really important. It's really something that we really need to get better at. So those are the two pieces I'd like to do this morning. And then we'll see what else comes up. Does that sound like a good agenda? All right. Well, we'll start with the first one. And I'd like to talk about psychosexual integration. So when we talk about, you know, if all of us were perfectly integrated, what would it look like?

[27:59]

Or what are the components? What are all the pieces? And we'll take a look at those. And as I said before, the nice part of it is I've never met anybody as was there. So we can all breathe a sigh of relief and say we're in process here. And so let's take a look at what the in process is about. Okay. These are the elements. These are the capacities. Notice what it says. The following capacities are really... what make up for an integrated person, or a person who's dealt sufficiently with their sexuality, or needs to be in crisis with these things. So if you notice, you'll hear me repeating some of the things that we talked about at the very beginning about what does it mean to be sexual. So if you look at the first one, it says to perceive, obviously, and feel positively about my own body. So it starts with your body, very simple. To perceive that your body is okay.

[29:01]

Now I haven't, anybody here who's perfectly comfortable with the body you have, you wouldn't change a thing? Anybody? You wouldn't change one thing? Just perfectly, yeah? Almost, sorry, but that's about as close as we ever get. Almost, you know? And some of us have grown to be more comfortable. But I don't know of anybody who wouldn't like to be maybe a little taller or a little thinner. or a few more hairs, or a few more, you know, I mean, we're all in process with that kind of stuff. But it basically is, basically you feel positively about your own body, about your own gender, that's being a man, and liking being a man, not just tolerating other women, liking being a woman. And then the same thing, obviously you need to be aware of here, but it's awareness of and by feeling cognitively about your own sexual orientation. So those are, it's a lot in one sentence, but that's part of what it means to be integrated. Now, if any one of those is still, if you're still in process with it, you don't like that part of you, then we talk about, that's part of the journey you need to be on, about then moving towards awareness and acceptance of integrating whatever facet of it is, if it's your body,

[30:11]

Is it you being a man or if it's your sexual orientation? The first two, a lot of people don't often have problems with it. Some people do. And then orientation sometimes is a big issue depending on where you are on that continuum. You know, as we said earlier, it seems much easier to be heterosexual than to be in another place on the continuum. The second day is, and this is why we're going to talk about emotional things, but notice it says to express affection. So to be affectionate, and obviously it means to receive it too. In ways, and just do it both verbally and physically. So verbal affection, you know, I care about you or I miss you. Whatever the words are for affection. I love you. I mean, those are appropriate words to say to certain people, you know, family and good friends. In ways appropriate to the relationship. So we're always talking about, do I realize what this relationship is I'm in, and am I being appropriate?

[31:12]

And one of the signs of not being integrated is not being aware of that you engage in inappropriate behavior. When somebody points it out, you say, oh, no, not me. I mean, no, I don't do that. When in fact, you did just do that. You might be too self-revealing. You might touch a person inappropriately, and somebody said, You know, you touch me and you say, no, I don't. So notice what happens in here. An unintegrated person frequently will not be aware of that they do inappropriate things, or when pointed out, they will say, this is not me. This isn't who I am. So that's one of the signs of integration here. But again, the notion of affection, verbal and physical, and then in the ways that are appropriate. And then we have to say, you know, as committed men, as myself say, what does appropriate verbal and physical expression look like? And by the way, it might differ for each of you in the sense of, it doesn't mean there are no norms, but because we're different, you know, I come, as you said, from an Italian family, a little more of a toucher, but I don't, but I have to be careful that I don't touch inappropriately to other people.

[32:22]

You have to pay attention to who they are as well. So you just have to know, there'll be some variety here. But you need to pay attention to what's appropriate with that. The third one says to be capable of genital love and orgasm. And what that means is it's really talking about having the, not being so afraid of your genital sexuality that you would never be able to, if you had the opportunity, if it was for you to be in a marriage, for example, that you'd be able to express your genital love. This says you have to have the capacity. You don't want to be incapacitated. So it's always having the capacity, but in this case you would not exercise it as I wouldn't because it doesn't fit with who we are. So notice it doesn't say exercise it, it says have the capacity. Know that you could, but in this case it's a free choice not to do that because it doesn't fit with who you say you are. The fourth dynamic talks about to distinguish between desire and love or between lust and love, you know, and there's a real difference, you know.

[33:22]

Sometimes we can, and to understand really what loving is about, which a lot of people don't, and that was interesting. I did some work, I think I said with you, with the students at Washington University, and one of the conversations we had is they said, would you talk about what it really means to love someone? We don't think we know. And that was a profound question. What does loving really mean? Because it's all tangled up in our culture with sex and things like that. Genital sexuality should be a wonderful expression of loving in a committed relationship. But you don't understand what they're saying. These are young people saying. What does it really mean to love somebody? And then they ask me to come back and talk about friendship. What is friendship? What does it really mean to be a friend? Because again, the messages are crazy out there. They're trying to figure it out. So if they're trying to figure it out, we might not always be clear either. So this is saying, do we know what the difference between lusting or desiring someone and really loving them? And remember, love is more than a feeling.

[34:24]

Love has to do with some decisions that we make. Sometimes we don't even like a person that we love sometimes because they make poor decisions. It's a good decision. This one says to be intimate. Notice that, and again, by the way, this is the list that we would use with everybody. This isn't the Relentless Life list. This is the big list. And we say to be intimate with persons of both sexes without fear or aversion. So now, intimacy again, is going to differ by what your white form is, you know, you would probably have less capacity in general to be intimate with women because you don't, you don't have, you have contact with them, but you have contact with them that's not as much as you would with the men, for example, because you live with men. You know what I mean? Same thing with me. I have more contact with women sometimes. But it's the, the intimacy is that capacity to be your authentic self, you know, take off the masks, to be real with, with either sex, with both sexes, without fear of any, either one of the sexes.

[35:29]

or out of version. I don't like women. I don't like men. That kind of thing. So again, it's having moved to a fact that you appreciate the other half of the population, you know, whether it be men and women, and you're able to be in relationship with them. And remember, intimacy happens at degrees. So again, you might have a long-standing woman friend, for example, that you've corresponded with and that you have conversations with, and that's when we talk about intimacy in this way. Remember, it has many facets, it's not just about genital intimacy. The next one, to be alone when necessary or chosen. Isn't that an interesting way to say it? Really, we're talking there again about solitude. We're going back to that very first slide I showed you that said, if our sexual energy is functioning and flowing well, it will lead us to solitude and to intimacy. So what this is saying is if we're going to live a healthy sexual life, and this will be true for, I would be saying this to lay men and women as well, you need time to be alone, and that includes away from your partner.

[36:39]

Sometimes you just need some space in there. And sometimes it's when it's necessary and sometimes when it's chosen. For example, I travel a lot. So there's moments for me when I'm in an airplane or I'm sitting in the airport and now the sits are longer because the connections are often long. I'm sitting in the airport sometimes for a couple of hours. waiting for the next flight. So that's an opportunity. Now I could go talk to people, and I enjoy people, so I sometimes do it. I know some people struggle with conversation, but sometimes I just choose to just be there, and I might have a book in front of me, or I might be, you know, doing a little journaling or something, but it just takes some quiet time, some time for solitude. You just need a break. You can't be always responding to people. And the same thing is, that's why messes are. Sometimes I don't choose it, it just messes around. I have this two hour wait, what am I going to do with this space, you know? And then sometimes you choose it. And that's, you know, like I just came back from a week's retreat, or we move away, we take some quiet time during this time.

[37:42]

Sometimes I just turn the radio off in the car, you know? Like I'll be on the way down today, I have about a five hour ride, I think, you know, four and a half hour, five hour ride. A lot of that time I just try to turn it all on and just kind of be. Process a little, you know, my experience here. I'm still processing my retreat, you know, trying to think about. And I'm getting ready to go back, meeting my staff, you know, how do I want to be with them, you know. So again, you get a little chance to pull some things together. to value and encourage sexual behaviors that are growth-producing for oneself and for others. Now, sexual behavior here does not mean genital sex. It means all kinds of behaviors. Remember we said it's about conversation, it's about touch, it's about affection, it's about, and then we have to look at the notion of fantasy again, which in the, auto-ironic, you know. So we say, okay, if I engage in fantasy, if I kind of get on a roll engaging in fantasy, is that really promoting my

[38:47]

life, my integration of my sexuality, is if I'm fantasizing about a relationship with a whomever, and it's not about being a celibate male, etc., is then helping me integrate my sexuality, or is it helping me disintegrate? So what this is saying is, we have to look at the behaviors that we engage in that are sexual in the broadest terms, touch, affection, conversation, fantasy, all of those, and say, How are those promoting my integration? Or are they helping me disintegrate? You know, are they helping me disconnect from a healthy sexuality? And so those are all individual questions you have to ask and you have to look at it. Again, we don't want you to be hyper and anxious, but this is an awareness question, again. This is awareness. What am I doing that fits in the area of sexuality and how does it fit with who I say I am? And how am I being invited to more integrity, to more integration. Then the last one, it says to integrate your sexuality into a total outlook on life so it becomes an aspect or a dimension of your life.

[39:56]

It's not the lens through which you look through life. It becomes such a part of you that you are more at ease. You're not self-conscious about your sexuality or about who you are. You feel more at ease with yourself and you're able to It's not the lens through which you look through life. Let me just go back to the sexual orientation one. When a person has integrated their orientation, they don't have to have it be the first thing that they say to people or the first thing they're always thinking about. Why? They're aware of their orientation, they've accepted it, and they live with more peacefulness. And they live as a man, as a celibate male, and I happen to have a same-sex orientation or a bisexual orientation. that's part of the picture, so it's not such a driving force. So again, uninspired sexuality, you would say to me that sexuality is prominent in your life, it's always on your mind, you're distracted by it a lot, rather than it's a part of your life.

[40:59]

Now, depending on where you're at in your life, sexual energy may be that it ebbs and flows. So at a given time in your life, it might be very demanding. You might feel a lot of sexual tension. Well, then you've got to pay attention to that. But I'm talking about in general. It becomes a part of you. And you name yourself as a sexual person, but it's not something that's causing you so much anxiety or so much education. It's sort of intimidating. Does that help? I mean, to kind of take a look at the, these are the facets that we talk about integrating sexuality. Now let me talk about a couple of other signs of perhaps lack of integration that might help you. And again, this is good for you to pay attention to your own journey, but it's also good when people are talking to you, and they talk to you about their life and say, aha, okay, this is something this person probably needs to address a little bit more, and maybe even professionally. I think, here's some thoughts that I would offer in this area.

[42:02]

One of the things has to do with relationships. And the more integrated you are, the more you're able to develop and sustain, those are two words, develop and sustain adult relationships, adult relationships. Sometimes what we see is with unintegrated sexualities, we see people who have difficulty, and it's in this relational area, difficulty relating to adults, but they relate better to children or to adolescents. I can tell you about one now. We had a novice that I was talking to, and we were talking to him about his relational life, and they were concerned about his relational life. And part of what he said is, he wasn't very much related to the anti-narcissists. And this guy was in his early 30s. We're not talking about somebody who's, you know, 17. We're talking about somebody who's early 30s. And one of his struggles, he was having trouble related to the other men in the house, but his ministry, part-time ministry, his ministry was with youth.

[43:09]

And so he loved hanging out with the teenagers. And he was like the old Clyde Piper with the teenagers. He loved hanging out with them, but was having a real difficult time developing and maintaining relationships with his peers, with the other guys who ranged in age from their mid-twenties to their early forties. So that's a sign, that would be a sign of you saying, hmm, One is, now it doesn't mean you don't like adolescents or you don't work well with adolescents. In fact, we need people who are good youth ministers. But you hear the difference here? Here we have a person who enjoys and wants to go and spend time with the adolescents and doesn't do well with his peers. Then I say, something happened. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's sexual abuse. But something happened that he doesn't keep growing enough that his adult relationships are the major focus, not hanging out with kids. So that's a sign when we look at people's relational life of unintegrated sexuality.

[44:10]

It says, what happened to them that they feel more comfortable with younger people than they do with people their own age? And they're not developing and sustaining. And those are two words. You need to develop them, but you also need to sustain them, which is going back to the intimacy notion. You get connected and you let the relationships grow. Otherwise, it's like people are good sometimes at saying hello, but then they can't sustain the relationship. They need to work on something. That's a very good point, because again, older people are going to treat them differently. They might be like a father-son kind of relationship. A mentor versus a nurse is a little bit more of a peer-relating. Or, for example, if the same novice related well with the novice director or the professor of the house but didn't relate to his peers, again, I would say, what's happening here?

[45:11]

Something isn't quite as integrated as it needs to be. We need to do a both-in. They need to relate to their peers. That's where the real friendships that always should occur and be able to relate to younger people and older people who are not focused on anyone. So it's very important. A second thing, Nick, that when we talk about integration is, it again has to do with relationships, is the inability to really make and sustain a commitment. So if you have people who, you know, they have short-term commitments and they just never seem to be able to make and sustain commitments. so that they are able to be in relationship over a longer haul. They're always moving around. They go from this thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing. Then again, he speaks to me again, I would wonder what happens. I would wonder, and again, it could be a whole range of possibilities. then the person is not able to be in relationships, whether it be in a community situation or with other individuals, and commit themselves and hang in there in the tough and anxious times.

[46:14]

It goes back to the intimacy thing. So not in a great capacity to connect and stay connected. I didn't even wonder about that. Again, I'm just raising some wonderings. We don't know all the stories. A tendency, here's another one, a tendency to be excessively judgmental or self-righteous with regard to certain behaviors or attitudes. So judgmental or self-righteous. Again, you'd say, because I think what we say is that, you know, we need to be more open to the fact that there is diversity in the area of sexuality, et cetera. And if people hold a rigid line, and say, this is right and this is wrong, etc. Then I would wonder what it is that they're guarding. And so it would raise questions for me, again about, I wonder when there's that kind of rigidity, what's happening and what are they trying to control? And maybe they're trying to control something internally, which often sometimes when people are externally controlling, they often are trying to control something inside.

[47:17]

which would make me raise questions about their own acceptance of their own sexuality. So again, I'm not judging, and again, we'd have to look at each person individually and walk with each person individually, but those are questions. If you intend to be kind of rigid and judgmental, you'd want to look at what is it about my own sexuality that I may not be in full think with and I tend to put it out there and sort of say right and wrong and you may be trying to do some controlling of your own inner self. And then the final one, which is clearly a little bit more clear now, those are more subtle signs of lack of integration. Here's one that's more clear and that is when a person engages in unhealthy or abusive behaviors that are sexual in nature. When a person engages in unhealthy or abusive behaviors. For example, when we have people engaging in casual or anonymous sex, people using pornography.

[48:18]

I know in our culture pornography is considered no big deal, but really it's making an object of another person and using them for our own pleasure. That's really unhealthy behavior and can even be quite abusive in nature as well. So we talk about, again, our state of the behaviors. Casual or anonymous sex, use of pornography, the using of gratification, becoming gratified sexually with children or adolescents, and really the compartmentalizing of my sexuality. So, you know, they make me very pious, et cetera, and sexuality gets separated out from their life. And so we've dealt with men, for example, who are acting out sexually, and I'm talking about with adult women, and yet wouldn't think of not staying in the office every day. So they get sexuality, get separated from their spiritual life as a priest, et cetera, and they don't see the contradiction. And so then you're saying something isn't together here. You see boxed compartments. And what we need to do is live one life with all the pieces, and we're trying to integrate all the pieces.

[49:22]

So I hope those are helpful. It may not be your story with some of these, for example, some of those behaviors, but you'll hear people, I think, as they come to us, who are priests, and you hear confession, you hear reconciliation, we're hearing people talk about these things. And even one of our young priests, I was doing a retreat for priests, young guys, all ordained five years or less, and there were 26 of them who came together on their own, and they invited me to come and do some talking. And one of them came to see me personally, And he was 32, he had been ordained about four years, and he was engaging in anonymous casual sex on a regular basis. And unprotected, which there's no such thing as real protected sex anyway, you know, the condoms work and they don't, you know. But this young man at 32, and I said to him, obviously I said, are you disturbed by this? And he said, somewhat. And it was really shocking in some ways, although I'd heard most of it. And I said to him, what makes you talk about it today with me?

[50:29]

And he said, we've been talking about intimacy. And he said, what I realized is that I don't want to know who they are. I don't want them to know who I am. I just want to have sex and get out of there. I don't want a relationship with them. Now that clearly is a clear sign of unintegrated sexuality. And I wouldn't, it's not because he's a priest that it's unintegrated, it's because he's a human being that he's acting like this and putting himself in great danger with casual anonymous sex on a regular basis. And when he wasn't doing that, he was using pornography on the internet. So his whole life, you ever hear that sentence that says here, sexuality is integrated, it's an aspect, really sexuality was his life. So you can see him as a big, like a big neon sign, unintegrated sexuality. With others, it's more subtle, you know, not having good relationships, you know. Questions or comments?

[51:30]

Let's try to give you the big picture when we talk about what does integrated sexuality look like? And what does it look like when it's not integrated? And it's important that all of us are on the journey of integration. I haven't yet met anybody who's made it. But what you might ask yourself is, in any of these areas, what am I better at? And where am I being invited to grow today? Any comments or questions that you'd like to offer with Well, I got a question, but it's so bad, I don't want to do it. Thank you for the great experience. Thank you. If you got it, I wanted to stay with you. Is there, like, you take a job for a person who's 42 something, and the fellow wants to stay young, so he plays, he doesn't really want to, you know, he might be 40 years old, but he came in 18, in his mind he's still 18, and he functions, I mean, perfectly.

[52:33]

But, I mean, here's two guys, for instance, they're both, great at what they're doing, but one feels that every day his age is going by and the other one says, I'm 18, I'm 18, I'm 18. He stays there and wants to stay there. He's making, you know, big bucks doing that. I mean, where is, what is, is there something wrong with that? Well, I would say, I don't know if you want to put right and wrong. I wanted to put right and wrong. I don't know if there's a right and wrong, but I wanted to say right and wrong. I used that term. Well, let me say this. I would say, you know, it is really a fact of life that we age. I don't care what he does, that he can do Botox, that he can have surgery and all that. His body is aging no matter what. And I think what I would want to talk with him about, you know, if he was talking to me, I would say to him, first of all, we live in a youth-oriented culture. I mean, our culture is highly youth-oriented.

[53:35]

Even though the graying of America, we are graying and the baby boomers are getting up there, we're seeing some ships in the notion of, you know, what is it, you know, you can be older and still live a vibrant life, but it's a very youth-oriented culture. So I would want to talk to him about sort of buying into that the only good place to be is to be young and to be 18, because it's really, it's not real. It's not real, but I'm just saying it. It was real for him. Sure. We had big bucks doing it. I'm just thinking, you know, I mean, when the other guy aged it, and, you know, talk about today. Well, I mean, I would really say something has happened that he's somewhat stuck in a very narrow understanding of what it means to be a human being. That human beings are young all the time. That's natural. And so I would want to ask him, you know, we wonder what it is that's the driving force. that keeps him wanting to be 18 when in fact he's 32 or 42 or 52.

[54:38]

Now he's 58, we still think he's 18. There's nothing wrong with taking care of your body and being useful, but the point is, it's not real. So I would want to know why he stopped. You know, three of us walking, like, together, and I'm saying, oh, he's still there. And then there was one other. I got the question, and this last one that you have right on. You said you knew one priest. I know thousands of people like that. They're just, well, they're casual sex, both sexes, man and woman. So it's not just, I mean, he was caught up as a priest and doing that work. I know a personal example, just saying there are people who have unintegrated sexuality and that's one way of expression of it is this casual having sex, and really putting themselves at risk, and really not having a relational life.

[55:41]

Remember, sexual energy, right back to the definition, sexual energy is about connection. It's not about any kind of connection, though. And it's certainly not focused on genital connection without a relationship. So it's so contrary to the energy. So you can imagine what the person's life is really like. This young man, really, was one of the saddest men I've ever met. He was so sad, really, and we talked and hopefully he was going to pursue talking with somebody where he's at to begin to say what happened. We don't need to tell you the other parts of the story that I know, but I understand part of why he got where he's at, but he needs to make some good choices. about not engaging in continuing the behavior that he's engaging in, because he's not adept to total self-destruction. I mean, there's just no way he's going to live any kind of life. And it's not because he's a priest, but because he's a human being. He has no life.

[56:41]

See, I'm saying he said because he was involved in a religious life because the people that are in the secular world, they go off, they might go to a, how do you want to put it? They go out and do what they have to do and then they come back and and that's to just maintain their living and making a living and just, you know, just using the objects that's going out and doing what they have to do to get, you know, gratification there and then coming back as a function and that's going on. I don't disagree. I don't disagree with that.

[57:45]

It's a lot of unintegrated sexuality in your head or something. Let's switch a little bit because I know we want to stay on track with the timeline. Let's talk about emotional intelligence. What we're really talking about is the capacity to deal with your own emotional life and it's always about me and you. That's what's interesting about sexuality. It's never just about me.

[58:10]

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