going to the next thing, doing one more thing, whatever. Look out for number one, and that means yourself. You are supposed to look out for yourself, but there's a big difference between looking out for yourself and seeing yourself as number one. I'm the most important thing in the universe. Here I am. Life has to revolve around me. That's different than taking care of yourself, which we heartily endorse. Schedule your time and stick to it. I got 10 minutes, let's be intimate. Let's go for 10 minutes. Really, sometimes you need to just waste time together. Maybe that's a good question. Do you waste time together? Now you realize you're small, you've got a lot to do, big enterprise deal with the sheep and all of that. But do you waste time? Is there always something to do? I mean, this is going to kill us if we don't have some time to waste with one another and waste in the best sense, you know, kind of hang out. In the house I lived in, literally, we had to create time to waste time.

[01:07]

We said to each other on Monday night, don't plan anything on Monday night unless you absolutely have to. So what happens? We all came home on Monday night and we all hung out. We didn't do anything. We didn't have meetings because we had meetings at other times. We just kind of hung out. Sometimes you need to plan those hanging out times. That's all we stand for, you know. We don't back down. We kind of get our little mean little look in there, you know, when I'm backing down, you know, or you're waiting for the other person to back down. Sometimes we just need to kind of say, you know, bury the hatchet, let's get out of this. You know, we're going to stand firm. It's something about, you know, protecting our honor or whatever we think. When something goes wrong, blame somebody. That's a good one. Now you need to know who you blame. Some of us blame ourselves. First, I must have done something wrong. And some of us blame other people. Now the thing about blame is, all it does is somebody feels bad and nothing has changed.

[02:10]

Think about it. If I blame you, you feel bad. Or if I blame myself, I feel bad. And not one thing has changed about the situation we're trying to deal with. Better to put our energy, not into blame, but into saying, well, we got something going on, we got a problem, let's fix it. I think men do that a little easier than women. Maybe not. But I think, you know, because we have a hard time. We get into whose fault is it, you know, rather than saying, look, we've got a problem here. Let's fix it, you know. Nobody turned the dishwasher on. We have no dishes to eat, to eat dinner with, you know. Let's fix it. It's not who didn't do it. You know what I mean? What a waste of energy. Blaming is a waste of our energy. Don't tell others what you want and expect. This is the old mind-reading thing. If you liked me, if you cared about me, you know what I want and need. I mean, that is pure romance. By the way, couples sometimes fall into this. Now, I have to say, if you've lived together, and some of you probably have for ten years or so, and somebody keeps ignoring something that they should know about you, I mean, I think you may have to have a little chat about that, you know, saying, you know,

[03:18]

Do you not know, or what's happening here, you know? But basically, we sometimes need to remind people, or we need to show them what we need around, because I'm assuming you need around what I do, you know? And it's not the same. Try to change others. We said this the other day. You should know at this point, the only person you have any hint of changing is yourself. And we know how hard that is, right? So if you think you're going to change one of the guys in this room, you forget it. I mean, it's just not a possibility. Work on yourself. If you want your relationship with him to be different, you change your relationship with him. And it's like, it's at least got a possibility of changing. Insist on doing things the way your parents did or the way we used to do it. You know how many times we've always done it this way? How many have heard that? You know, we've always done it this way. So nobody could have a new idea. There's no creativity here. You know, we'd always do it the same way. Now, it doesn't mean there isn't room for routine or for some standard things that do work. But you know, if everything is we always do it this way, you're in trouble, you know. A quick story, my brother, when he was first married, I went to his house for dinner.

[04:23]

And he said to his new wife, you're cutting the onions wrong. I thought, isn't this interesting? You're cutting the onions wrong. So I said to him, what does cutting the onions right look like? I mean, yeah, she's there taking little chunks, you know, little chunks of onion to throw in a salad thing. So I couldn't wait to hear what's cutting the onions right. And he said, he didn't have to think at all. He said to me, you know, like mom, And he said, you cut the onion, and you cut it in half, and you make those half moons. You know, those little half moons? Do you know that's exactly the way I cut onions? I just didn't have a partner to say you're cutting onions wrong to, you know. And in the convent you learn there's 14 ways to cut onions, you know, if you don't hold out on them. But I thought it was intriguing. They're cutting the onions wrong. Okay. So we sometimes insist, you know, I'm old. Now it doesn't mean we know how to deal with some tried and true things. We've tried 14 things, this is the best way.

[05:25]

Okay, let's go for it. But sometimes, you know, we're into I'm right and, you know, we're doing it this way, when we could try something different. Then the last one. Assume you don't understand, no one understands, understanders better than they understand themselves. You know, this is what we tell people, you should. Or, you know, we give people advice about things when really we need to let them make their own decision and invite them to tell us what it's like for them. I think we left this one... Oh, we did that. Oh, I want to do this, the negative consequences. Do you have this one? You don't have this one? Sorry about that. This is because people say to me, so what if I don't choose intimacy? So what if I don't? And I'm excited about this slide because it's an important one. But basically what happens is we'll stay immature and we won't develop as adults. We'll be like children. If we don't connect with each other in a deeper way, in a more challenging way, we'll just be like emotional children for the rest of our life, which is not what we're called to be.

[06:32]

And then notice what it says. We will displace our intimacy needs. Because remember, we said intimacy is not optional. This is not something, oh yeah, that's for the lay folks, or that's for the women, as one of the guys was trying to tell me. This is a human need. Remember we talked about the big four? Identity, achievement, intimacy, and generativity. This is a basic adult human need that you need to meet in some fashion. And if you don't, you will displace it. So what does displace mean? You do other things. You know, here's where we brought some of the dependent behavior. You know, you'll watch somebody, for example, follow somebody else around and do whatever they say. It's not real intimacy, but they'll hang, you know, they'll be connected to one another. You know, you don't see one without the other. Why? It's a way of coping, but it's not intimacy. using authoritarian use of the power. It makes me so anxious and makes me so sad when I watch some of our young priests, for example. And a young religious woman could do it too, but I'm familiar with a couple of guys who are in parishes and they say, because I said so.

[07:34]

When somebody asks them, they say something about, Father, do you think we can look at this in a different way? No. And they say, well, why not? You know, this seemed to be worth it because I said so. Because I said so. You know, this arrogant, power thing kind of thing, and really alienating people. And I think that that's a functional, a good way to function as an adult. It's not, and the rating will not validate it. Compulsive addictive behaviors, lots of compulsive. Watch. This is a disconnected life. The pain of disconnection, you've got to numb some with something. So we're using this for a lot of compulsive stuff is numbing the pain of disconnection. Finally, griminess and work. Again, if I just work a little harder or I can do a little more work, then I don't have to face the fact that I'm not intimate with people. Another one is perfectionism, where people live from the neck up, you know, and they spend all their energy on dotting the i's and crossing the t's and making it perfect, and therefore they don't have time for relationships, and therefore they live a disconnected life.

[08:35]

Now, there's nothing wrong with doing excellent work. We're not beating up excellence, but there's a difference between excellence and perfectionism, and that's a real thing we have to keep in mind. unhealthy forms of piety again we'll see I'm watching some of our younger folks you know with all kinds of you know with their dress but you know with very pious practices and yet they are disrespectful to one another they're disrespectful sometimes to their own teachers and there's a lack of reverence and yet there's this extraordinary piety and we want to say they don't fit It doesn't fit. You don't have this overly pious person who's disrespectful to one another. You know, there's a God that they meet in one another that they don't see. You can't live like that. It's not healthy. And then finally, rigid adherence to rules and rights. So we quote the rules and the rights. You know, somebody says, well, let's take a look at this. I was talking to a young community of women. And one of the young women, who was a tad rigid, said, I really set it out, the decision we made last Thursday not to have

[09:41]

communal evening prayer and to celebrate a birthday by having dinner and movie. So I said to her, do you do that often? I mean, is it, do you just kind of not have communal prayer often? And she said, no, no, we have it every night. But there was this, you know, Rick decided that last Thursday we would pray our evening prayer privately. And can you hear the rigidity? That on a given night, he couldn't change the schedule just a little bit to celebrate people's birthdays. And they were like three birthdays. So we can't come together to be human with one another. And her statement was, we're not a prayerful community. Because once, in six months, they changed the prayer schedule? I mean, we're talking rigid, Rigid adherence to a schedule, that schedules are made for us, not us, you know, made for the schedulers, you know. And then finally, inability to love God and others wholeheartedly, because intimacy is really critical to loving God as well.

[10:48]

We're human beings, we need to be connected with one another. And finally, the lack of development of a healthy self-identity. I can't become my authentic self without you. It's the bumping up against you and feedback from you and seeing that really I become more who God has invited me to be. I don't become me without you. And you don't become you without each other. This is the primary group that you work because this is your monastery, this is where you work. And it's other people too that you bump up against. But it's critical that this, so it's really, the negative consequences are big time. Big time, if we don't choose it. That's it. That's my thought on it. It's a different light. It sort of expands the notion of looking at it. It asks you to think about it a little differently. It really invites us to say, it is a part of our life.

[11:48]

It needs to be a part of our life. What are we going to do to get there? Any comments or questions? I'm still stuck on that other idea. I just, I don't believe, you know, there's, I mean, in my opinion, there's just multiple types of intimacy. I mean, you know, a man in a white, they have that kind of intimacy. They have a different kind of intimacy. I don't think it can be equal to have intimacy. Because that's, you know what I mean? No, well, no, I'm going to disagree. It's okay, because I do think, for example, friends, we do need to be equals. It's very hard to be in an intimate relationship with somebody who is not your equal. It's not possible in the way I want to talk about it. I'm not saying to you that there are different ways of being intimate. You know, you're right, because the husband and wife, for example, includes a genital intimacy, etc. But we're talking about a basic relationship based among peers. And even with the husband and wife, if they do not feel equal, if there's not a real mutuality happening between them, it will not be reasonable.

[12:58]

It won't be. I don't care. I don't get paid sex every day. That's right. That's right. And that's one of the issues we have is the lack of mutuality and the lack of that's happening with couples. And that's why they don't have it. But I understand what you're saying. And again, I just invite you to think about it and you can don't have to agree, but I think you understand you don't have to agree. Okay. We can part with that. I think as long as we understand that I'm saying there's something a little bit different than you're saying doesn't quite fit for me. It's okay. You know, we're not here to make everybody think alike. We're just offering some different ways of looking at it. Let me just do this. If you're interested in this, take one. This is the male intimacy thing. And let me just do a couple of highlights from there about why men seem to have more difficulty with intimacy than women. And again, that's a generalization because some women are terrible at it as well. So we're simply saying, what is it about men and who we've taught men to be? If you're interested, some of this, by the way, is directly from Kevin's article.

[14:00]

But one of the things he says, let me just listen to the things he says interfere with male intimacy. The first thing he says is a lack of trust and a fear of trusting another person with your more vulnerable self. He says that clearly men are a little bit more guarded, a little bit less trusting, a little bit more fearful of being their real self with other men in particular, but with anybody. So again, trust and not trusting as much. Then the second thing he says, very interesting thing, he talks about is lack of self-esteem. And he basically, what he underlines here is that even though some men have a lot of, you know, they come across as if they could run the world, and they do. They, you know, run corporations, they're lawyers, they do all different things. And he says, what's interesting, fundamentally, a lot of men, a lot of people, this is true of everybody, don't believe they're worthy. Or if they really let people know who they are, people wouldn't like them, people would reject them. So there's this question of worth and worthiness.

[15:02]

So it's a good question is, do I feel worth it? Do I really feel that I'm worth being in an intimate relationship with another person? The third thing he says, which is a critical issue, this one is big time, and it is, there's a lot of truth to this one, is he talks about the lack of empathy. And what he says is my experience. He said, here's what happens a lot of times with men. Because we say to you, it's your job to fix things. As soon as I talk to you about an issue, you move into your role of, I got to fix it. And you start offering advice, or you say, well, here's what you could do, or why don't you try this, or why don't you talk to this person. Very typical, what we call an instrumental response. Very typical male response. The empathic response is not about what you're going to tell me to do or help me to do. It's to sit with me with exactly what I'm talking about and let me talk to you about it and feel my feelings and you'll be able to hear my feelings.

[16:07]

You don't have to do anything except be a receptive listener. And that's very hard for most men. You move very quickly into fixing and doing. And that's not what empathy is about. Empathy is about receiving where I'm at and trying to understand where I'm at. Now let me say a new concept that I'm just listening to, learning about, that he doesn't mention. But I want to say one other thing about empathy. It's about anticipatory empathy. It's a new expression, anticipatory, anticipating empathy. And what the new concept is this, when you say something, before you say it, it's like a little self-check. Are you aware of how it's going to impact the other person? That is a newer concept around empathy. Now, I'm not saying, we need to speak the truth, and we need to invite one another to challenge each other to greatness. And I can fail in this. Instead of saying, well, who is this person? And if I say this in this way, how is it going to come across?

[17:10]

So it's really paying attention. It doesn't mean you don't speak the truth, but it means you're aware of who the other person is, and you try to say it in the best possible way that they can hear it. You don't just kind of blurt it out. And that's called anticipatory empathy, which is something I need to get better at myself. Well, this is the first kind of thing I have to extend it to. Oh, the first empathy is just really the ability to walk in the other person's shoes without fixing anything. It's to sit there. So if I'm telling you about my mother died, And I might be telling you, you know, we have to deal with the closing of the house and all of that. And you'd say, well, you want to move right into, well, here's the lawyer. No, you need to sit with me with more of the grief, with the sadness, and let me talk about that and not worry about fixing it, you know. And that often happens between men and women. Another thing interesting enough is about sadness or grief. That what we see is men are more likely to be mad than sad.

[18:11]

And that's a very interesting statement, and there's a lot of truth to it. that it's easier for many people than managing it to get angry instead of feeling the sadness that they really feel. Why? Because anger pushes people away. It's a little easier to deal with. It feels easier to deal with. But in the long run, it's somewhat constructive. So you need to pay attention to your own grieving. And grieving of what? Could be of many things. Friendship lost. Changing relationship. Your own body changing. I mean, we're grieving about many things, so men need to pay attention to grief. The other thing he mentions is a little bit related to transference, what we talked about last night, and he says, he talks about unresolved issues from the past. Unresolved issues from the past that get played off over and over again in your adult life. For example, if you didn't have a good relationship with your father. You might play that out over and over again in your adult life unless you come to terms with that, or with your mother, it doesn't matter.

[19:19]

So the question is, that is that knowing your own history. This is why it's so important, for example, anybody who's had abuse in their history. or grew up in an alcoholic system, to have spent some time focusing on that, to understand what it was like for you as a kid growing up in that. We're not blaming, we're not trying to beat anybody up, but what was it like for you to grow up in that kind of a circumstance and understand the consequences so that you can be free to live better in the present. So that's a big one. Is there anything in the past that's kind of being removed? Perfectionism is another one that he mentions. It's a big hindrance. We already talked about that. He also talks about, interestingly enough, a capacity for self-denial or self-deception. You know, and what he means by that is that sometimes we kind of walk around in our own to feeding ourselves, that we really kind of walk around not paying attention to really what's going on.

[20:24]

And that's important. And then the last one he mentions, which I don't think it's your case, but it's clearly one that fits with our first opening session, he says the lack of solitude, that the lack of solitude will hinder many men from being able to be intimate, because why, they don't know themselves, they don't know how to offer that personal relationship. So again, I invite you to see what he has to say. I know, Kevin, he's pretty decent. You may get Human Development, do you get it? We do. Okay, so you may have seen it already, but it's just a copy from Human Development. I invite you to take a look at it if it's helpful to you. The kind of thing, I don't know how you follow up from a couple of days like this, but it may be something that you want to talk about the article. You want to say, does it make sense? Does it fit with your own experience? How do you follow up from something like this? It's a good question. Maybe talking about the article and things that I deal with. Who knows? I don't know. I don't know what works for you as a community to be able to make your own decisions about this. Helpful for me to at least get some ideas about intimacy. And remember the one final thing. It is not optional.

[21:25]

Somehow this has to be a part of our life. Because it's part of our humanity. And I hope we can get better at it. And I hope we can help other people get better at it. We need to understand it, first of all. Any other comments or questions? I was surprised that self-esteem had come up faster. Oh, I kind of wish. Yeah, because with relationships it seems that if somebody is such down, you know, that it's difficult to Because a person can be a burden to another. And then, you know, you could say, hey, I've let it die all the way. I'm still sick. But what is an exchange? Yeah. No, you're right. Self-esteem is a major issue. By the way, most of us struggle a little bit with self-esteem, if we're honest. I mean, You know, I don't know of any, I've never met anybody, and I meet tons of people all the time, and really gifted, talented people, who don't have some doubts, some struggles with their own sense of themselves, you know.

[22:37]

But I think it's when it's weighing us down, when we think we're worthless, that there's nothing we have to offer. That's when it's very hard to be in relationship with the person. You can't, you know, really. There's nothing mutual going to happen. And then it can be a burden. You almost feel like you're carrying the person. So we all have to look at our own journey and to say, how do I regard myself? That's another way to split the question. How do I regard myself? Do I like myself, basically? And if I don't, why not? But also, I think school does it, because you're memorizing other people's stuff. But anyway, I'm thinking of a mathematician now. He was up, he was studying. He went to Cornell for a special thing. The people all over the country played for mathematicians. This notion of a mathematician, because we're some mind-nagging rats.

[23:38]

But you see, again and again, in our culture, the Western culture, that lack of fun. You know what one of the biggest bostering, what fosters self-esteem, this would be something you'd be aware of when you're talking to people. is if you can ask them, it's competition, especially early competition in their own family. If there was any comparing of children, if there was, you know, and any more, you know, if there's any comparison where you're not like your brother or you're not like your sister or whatever, that is one of the most, one of the causes, one of the fundamental things about. It's really, self-esteem comes from the relationship of the individual with significant people in their life and the kind of messages that were sent by the significant people. So parents have a huge responsibility here. So do teachers and people, and grandmas and grandpas and all that.

[24:42]

The people who kind of were with the kids a lot, you know, and the messages they sent. And the more comparing their wants, the more likely that's what a person does their entire life. They're always comparing themselves. Like this man, who's probably very gifted and invited to this special thing, but he's always comparing himself to the ideal, to the perfect, and he's always going to fall short, you know what I mean? So rather than just saying, yes, I need to go to my own right, And there are other people who, you know, I mean, so if you know, what they do is compare a lot. So you may want to pay attention. If you're not feeling good about yourself on a given day, who are you comparing yourself to? And can it just be you? And get out of that comparing business. And it often comes from early comparisons. We learn well. I always say to people, we're not poor learners, we're darn good learners. But some of what we've learned is not helpful to us. So if you compare, and you compare yourself then somebody always has to win and somebody always has to lose. If you win, that means somebody else is losing.

[25:43]

If you've lost, you know, if you hold somebody else higher, then you're losing. It's a terrible way to live. Winning and losing. So if you find yourself that you can learn to compare, quit it. I think a lot of it translates into, God loves us because He has to, He doesn't like us. That's right. Or we have to earn. God's love for us versus this gratuitous God who says yes. We can't do it. The one that's an extension of comparing in the original family, so to speak, is the fact that all through life, well, it seems that way to me anyway, that the first impression somebody has of you It's the lasting one. And it's for you to kind of get out of that, even though they're going to think that way of you. It's like, alright, that's the way they're going to think of me.

[26:45]

But I don't have to walk into it. I mean, I've walked into it with my siblings. I came here at 19. Well, people remember you at 19. People remember you now. Sixteen, right? I'll say that to the old sailor, about the brothers here for me. They always remember you. They remember you from the first impression of you. And I think that you raise an issue, though, that does happen in community. Again, we're not, I know you, so I'm not, in any way, you're saying it, but I think in community, do we allow people to change? or do we, as we said, keep them in the box that we had them in? And sometimes we're not very good at letting people change. People grow, they move and grow and become more, and hopefully they'll let us grow and change as well. But it's an important thing, and we're the leading film at first, and we remember that when they entered at 19, or we remember two years ago when they did that, and we still got them in two years ago, but maybe that two years ago period has brought their whole world in place.

[27:57]

Do we let people change? And ourselves, too. So, thank you very much. Thank you. Have a good rest of that. She's going to yell at me now, so I need to keep on my feet. I think you needed a second one. Did you get it? Did you get me or not? Well, that's the thing about it, you know, you're always out and [...] out And it was a hypersensitive one. Get lost. It was that second one. As long as you're next to me. Get lost. No way. It's just... It was that one. There's no such thing in France.

[28:59]

Oh, in Thailand there's sheep. I know all of it. Oh, I had a lot of them. You see, I had my own field. I did a whole new one. I did a whole new field. I had some work to do. Work? Yeah. I worked in an advocacy organization. They both, that was four years ago. He was in the Humanities Department. He was on change. I was on it. to include at those end. So it's not me and you, the rest of you don't have. So it's hard to include. That's a real challenge. I'll give you a minute. You must be wrong. That's a long one. You got a lot to talk about. I do. You got a lot to talk about. You know what I'm saying? It's so stupid. I don't think it's [...] stupid.

[29:59]

I don't think it's stupid. I don't think it's stupid. I don't think it's stupid. I don't think it's stupid And it's true, a person can be... I'm trying to track it. I'm trying to understand. I can't make it anymore. [...] It's a question of just having the man to do the work. I mean, I think he's absolutely open to empowering the potentials of the man to do so. And the other thing, that's why you're doing it. We can't demand a judge. I didn't say that I was a judge. I was just saying that it's a man that we can't demand a judge. Wait, this is the line.

[31:10]

We're all in line. When I was born, I was just a little bit floored with the idea of hearing these things. What might be of interest to them? And then I was on my way up here, and these things keep popping up. It was an adventure. It was quite an adventure. The adventure of Shankar. I don't know if you know Mr. Rogers. The guy with the sweater. And he died this past year. Fred Rogers. And he spent his whole life as an educator with children on TV, most of it. And this one is one of his pieces of poetry and it's called The Clown in Me. And just listen to this wisdom. He used to say this to kids, you know, and you think about what wisdom, somewhat related to what we talked about today about self-esteem and everything.

[32:12]

He says this. Sometimes I feel when I'm afraid that I will never make the grade. So I pretend I'm someone else and show the world my other self. I'm not quite sure of me, you see, when I have to make a clown of me. A clown, a clown, I think I'll be a clown. I think I'll make people laugh and laugh all over town. A clown, that's what I'll be, a clown. Sometimes I feel all good inside and haven't got a thing to hide. My friends all tell me I'm the best. They think I'm better than the rest. It's times like this I act myself. and I let the clown stay on the shelf. Myself, myself, I think I'll be myself. I think I'll let people see the comfortable inside of me.

[33:14]

Myself, I'll be myself. It's only when I feel let down, I might be scared into a clown, but he can be himself. When I can be myself, myself, I think I'll be myself. A little wisdom from Fred Rogers. He has a book out called The Wisdom of Mr. Rogers, and there are several like that that are really touching. They're said to kids, but they speak to us too, don't they? I mean, they really speak to us of who God invites us to be and how we need to invite each other to be our best self, you know? There was a question, several questions, and I'd like to answer a couple of questions that had come up. One was in relationship to the conversation on intimacy. And the question was, you know, are there degrees of intimacy or levels of intimacy?

[34:16]

And I'd just like to talk about that for a few minutes, and then I want to talk about what we owe each other in the community, I think, you know, what really is, what's real. And so I just wrote myself a little note here, levels of intimacy, so I won't forget. And that has to do with this, you know, it is true, we're called to be intimate and to live intimacy, have intimacy in our life. But there are degrees of intimacy we will have with different people. It's not going to be the same with everybody. It can't be, because each of us is unique and fits with the things we talked about earlier. We're attracted to certain people, we like certain people better than others, they like us better than, you know what I mean? So we're going to have, within community and or in any place, we're going to have levels of intimacy. And that's what you need to expect that. I think if we expect it all to be the same, we're going to be very disappointed or even angry. You could get really angry. You could say, how come this person, you know, it doesn't relate to me like they relate to another person, you know, another man in the house, for example.

[35:17]

So we need to expect differences. What I say to people is, if you have a closer relationship, and we talk about an intimate relationship, which can also be a friendship in community. I think the thing is, there's nothing wrong with that, and this is what has to happen, I think, that community needs to be big enough to realize that two people do our friends and let the friendship happen. And the two people need to be big enough to include other people at times in their friendship or in their intimacy. And that's really challenging. They have to be big enough to let people, you know, to have a friendship, or as we say, to have some, you know, and that means probably they're going to take some time apart. You might see them go for a stroll together, or they might share a little bit more deeply, the two of them, on a given occasion, you know. We ought to expect that. And we ought to be big enough to let it happen. And they have to be big enough, the two people, to allow, to invite other people into their relationship. It can't just be the two of us, especially when you live in a small community like you do.

[36:21]

You have to let other people in. So I think that's one of the challenges. How do we realize we're not going to be the same with everybody? That's not real. It's not going to happen. And you could set up a real false expectation. We're going to do this with everybody in the same way. We're called to do it with everybody, but it's going to look different. It's going to be different. Okay, so that's just a word I would just say about levels of intimacy and what we can expect and what's real and how not to get either disappointed or frustrated or angry or how to be not big enough to allow some friendships to happen, to have intimacy happen with different people. One of the hard ones is if you find yourself attracted to someone, in the best sense, you know, and you'd like to be in a relationship with them, a closer relationship, and they don't feel the same. That's a little tricky in an over, you know, because you can feel very rejected. But again, remember, intimacy requires mutuality, so we have to be able to realize that it might not happen, even though on your side it looks like you'd like it to happen, they don't always happen.

[37:25]

So we have to, hopefully there's enough other people around that we can now create the relationship with someone else. And then the final thing I would say, and this is what's happening in a lot of religious congregations, when you get new members, is that how do those of us who already have set relationships invite a new member into a relationship? You know, how do we connect with a newer person? I'm thinking about myself. My best friend lives in community. with me. We've never lived together interestingly enough. We've been in the community 37 years. We've never lived together, but we're close friends and we vacation together. We're going to vacation together in a few weeks. How are we big enough to allow other people into our friendship? It doesn't mean we're not going to be the best friends and we're not going to still do things, but we have to be big enough. If we think we want new members, we have to include them. And that's a stretch sometimes, you know, because we know each other well. It's not going to be the same with a new person, but we have to be open to allowing some new people. And that's challenging for all of us, I think.

[38:25]

So those are just some words, I think, that have to do with the levels of intimacy and what we can expect reasonably. And then I'd like to do two other things today, and I think this will be a little shorter tonight. One I'd like to do is to respond to another question, and it had to do with sensuality versus sexuality. You know, when we're talking about, what is that? When we say, what does it mean to be sensual? And what about sexual? I thought it's a really good question because one of the things is we have so focused pleasure in the area of sexuality that we don't realize that pleasure is related to sensuality and we don't let sensuality into our life or we don't let it count. This is what's happening with a lot of folks. All pleasure is associated with genital sex or sensuality and not allowing sensuality to be a form of pleasure. So what does it mean to be sensual? What it really means is to really allow

[39:26]

ourselves to be taken through our senses, sensual comes from senses, you know, and to really experience pleasure through our senses. That's what we're really talking about, experiencing pleasure through our senses. So we say, well, what does that mean? What does that look like? It could simply be, you know, there's some flowers along the road bed down there that are going to be planted in some place. Whenever they get planted, will we notice them? Will we allow the beautiful colors, the real mix of colors that are going to be coming? Will we allow our senses, our eyes to appreciate them? Food, do we even taste it sometimes? I mean, I don't know about you, but you know, we're racing to the next thing, we're eating standing up, at least you sit down. I mean, I have to admit, it's kind of nice to sit down with people. But you know, people eat standing up, running to the next thing. So do we taste anything? We don't taste things, you know? There's a wonderful poem right here, I don't have it with me, about, you know, there's this so-called Labor 2000.

[40:28]

A black woman wrote this poetry about it. It's called In the Shower. And she talks about feeling the water on her body in all 2,000 parts, you know, taking off on the soap, you know. Do we feel the refreshment of water, you know, when we're taking a shower? We don't want you to be in the shower for half an hour, you know, running up your water bills. But, you know, it really means to really allow pleasure to come to us through the senses, because pleasure belongs in our life. And if we don't, if we deprive ourselves sensually, then we're going to load it all into sexual things. And you'll see people looking for pleasure in sexual areas because they don't have any sense of the sensual. So sensual, taste, touch, smell, do we allow ourselves to really experience the sense of pleasure that comes from those? Now, you folks, I know you know the men at Yusuke, right? And some of you probably know some of them better than others. And do you know Brother Sagos? Do you know him at all? Do you know him? I know Elias, you know, but Stavros is another one of the monks.

[41:34]

And I want to read this to you. This is published, so I can read it. Although he shared it with me when I was up there doing a similar workshop. But I'd like you to listen to Sensual. This is his experience. It's very profound too, because he wrote it on September 10th. He wrote it on September 10th, one year after the September 11th. So it's the eve of September 10th. And he, what he does is he goes on a small camping trip by himself. And this is, listen to what he describes and listen to the sensual nature of this. And then you'll get a taste of it. I couldn't do it better. He said, it's called an illicit night at Somerset. You ready? There's one night out from the monastery and he's an invite me day. He says, the boat launch sign says no camping.

[42:36]

Who'd care or know on this speck of an island, seven boulders and grassy gravel enough to spread a bed roll. You get the picture of this small little island. Mount Snow looms south and Stratton provides a handsome profile north. Water and green mountain forest fill all between. Then he says, I've always wanted to do this alone. It took hours to find it, a slow three-mile progress in a canoe to a cove on the eastern shore. It's warm for September. The sun sets, now listen to the senses here as he comes to this, the sun sets without clouds, making water blush, then bruise purple as mountain profiles dissolve in mist. The last paddlers pass along the far shore, sensed only by the plunge and drip carried on the shadowed water.

[43:41]

My Spartan campsite takes minutes to arrange, so I sit and gander as the eighth moon smiles at flashy Venus, and stare at a loom testing its echo close enough to mark the wake print of whipped feet. Then he continues. I make a little driftwood fire. I can almost smell this when he said it. Make a little driftwood fire for a simple meal as much as for the comfort and the smell. Then I inchworm into my bag bed and look up at the stars. Hercules heads home as Big Ursa lumbers up in the east, more loons and tiffany on the lake and a duck, a noisy dash to find its mate, then silence as if God had held his breath in sleep.

[44:44]

Pre-dawn, strews a Monet at my feet, where did I dream a colossal canvas of rose and peach? Sleep reclaims me, awake again, and on my elbows the colors wrap around, except behind me where there's undifferentiated blue. The waters, courted by an eastern breeze, appear river-like, scurrying, as if to escape the fanning, rolling mist, advancing like white, weightless lava, to blur the tree line on the shore. The loon's full tremolo is noted by an owl or two, or maybe that was a moose call. A squadron of dragonflies An agile but quieter than hummingbirds begins the breakfast chase, while hungry bass breach a plot, a winged meal in mind. I shed my cocoon and skidded it in quicksilver, warmer than it looks, grateful for no human sound save my own slow strokes.

[45:58]

The rising sun stirs up a freshening breeze. Wavelets lick the granite bank like a pack of thirsty dogs. So begins a day of inner and outer peace. Now remember the date. It's the day before September 1, the anniversary. So begins a day of inner and outer peace. Senses saturated by beauty. Of goodness speaking most eloquent in silence. once nears nuance the dialogue between creator and all that is until a jet from Boston drags a metallic nail across the pane of dawn making me cringe with recognition of the date. Can no stillness endure the twisted claim to absolutes Can faith be a quiet ripple or doubt the monstrous roar of proud towers returning to dust?

[47:08]

Then he says this last thing, to shout the name of God in triumph. Anger or piteous last gasp prayer reverbs moonlight in eternity. The whispered cell phone, I love you's. And the clasped hands before the leap speak louder the language of divinity than bright sky, warm sun, and silken burden, summer sun. maybe forget the language, but notice what he stole, notice what he took in, on this simple camping trip, on this simple island, all by himself, working day, I think we'd miss a lot, you know, letting the senses take in it, and just appreciate it, and really enjoy. So I think that's what sensual means to me, you know.

[48:14]

That, to me, would lead to immense gratitude. Yeah, I think that's true. And walk, you know, and wonder. I think, wow. I think that'd be like a response. Wow. But you're right. I think it would probably, would be to gratitude. So I hope that helps. That's just a response to sensual versus sexual. It was a good question. We need to be more aware of, more sensual, and then I think we'd be experiencing some of the pleasure that God wants us to experience, and we wouldn't load it all. into seeking perhaps into the sexual arena. Sexual stuff should be pleasurable, too. I mean, when we see somebody we like or we haven't seen in a while, we ought to rejoice and give them a hug. That ought to be, you know, pleasurable, too. It's just if you just leave it all there, we're missing, I think, some great opportunities for pleasure and for sensual stuff, you know. So that's what I would offer. Okay? Is that sound?

[49:15]

At least that's what I'm trying to attempt to go into that question. One last thing to talk about tonight, and that is to say, you know, we've been talking about sexuality is about connection, and there's no doubt about it. It is about healthy connections. And then we say, well, what kind of connections, you know, what do we promise each other in community, you know? Do we promise each other friendship? And for me, the answer is no, we don't. Friendship is a gift. It happens with mystery attached to it. You know, how is it that Eileen and I are friends, that we were one year apart in the bishop, but we didn't talk to each other in the bishop. We were separated during those days. And we became friends as we were more adult women in the community. And there are things about us that are quite different, and things about us that we like. You know, those things we talked about with regard to attractions, we like some of the same things, you know. So some of it makes sense, but when you try to explain it, you can't explain it, there is mystery to it. So then I say, well, what do we owe each other in community? And I'd like to introduce another word that is really, I think, how we are intimate with one another.

[50:20]

And the word I'd like to introduce is intimacy, there is a mutuality. I'd like to introduce this notion of mutuality and to say, what do we promise each other in community? We owe each other something. Remember, this is about loving and being loved. That's who we're called to be. That's our human vocation. So we say, in community, we're going to love and be loved among ourselves and with the people beyond us. But it has to happen here among you because You're the primary group that you are in relationship with, just like my community is the primary group I'm in relationship with. So we say, what if we said we're not going to promise each other friendship, because that's a mystery, and when it happens, it's great, but it's not going to happen with everybody. So then we don't owe each other anything, and I'd like to say we owe each other this. And this is a way of being intimate in community. So notice how it says mutuality. What it says, it's the capacity that each of us has to receive with respect and understanding the reality of another person.

[51:23]

The capacity to receive with respect and understanding the reality of another person. So when we meet each other, I'm going to say, this is a person who is different than myself. What is his reality? and I need to be respectful of it and to try to understand it. To try to understand it. You know, people behave for reasons, and sometimes they behave a little oddly, don't they? I mean, you know, we do something and you say, what is that about? You know, we don't quite understand it, you know. But what we need to do is we need to be, we need to be more curious. That's one of my favorite lines of a friend of mine. She says, don't get mad, get curious. Be more curious about what is it that, how is it that this person chooses to do things in this way, or presents himself in this way. How is that, you know, I wouldn't do that, maybe, and you wouldn't do that, but another person does. So it's really trying to be able to say,

[52:27]

Here's a person who's coming to one of us. How do I be respectful and understanding of his reality? It's not my reality, maybe. And how do I get to know? And part of it is we need to sometimes develop the art of inquiring. Inquiring. And that's very simple. Tell me about. Tell me about, you know, what's that like for you? What's it like for you? given this circumstance of your life. Tell me what it's like for you. I know what it's like for me, but I'd like to know what it's like for you. So we inquire. So the very important notion of receiving with respect and understanding the reality of another. It's also the capacity, notice that it says, to offer to other or others. our own reality. So you can see we're coming right out of the intimacy, Sam. So I'm going to tell you who I am. I'm not going to pretend. I'm not going to play games. I'm not going to be indirect. I'm not going to manipulate. You know, I just want you to know who I am. And by the way, that is a fundamental human need.

[53:28]

We want other people to know us as we really are. Although sometimes we spend a lot of our life hiding who we are. But we really do want to be known and to be loved for who we are. So this is such an important thing, to offer to the other person. And by the way, this is true of everybody. This is not about, I'm going to only do this with a couple people. We try to do this as much as possible. Now it's going to happen at different levels too. But we owe each other to receive with respect and understanding every person's reality as best we can. And some people are going to do it better than others. Same thing, we owe each other to offer our own reality without playing games without pretense, without indirection, without being indirect and without manipulation. And notice what it says, that the drowning way of being in the world, that requires some skills, as well as some values and attitudes. And the values and attitudes, you have to believe that your relationships matter. You have to believe that we owe each other something. And you have to be willing to do the behaviors to make this stuff happen, you know. So what I'd like to do is to show you there's three stages or three things that are involved when we talk about mutual help.

[54:36]

And they're really like three exchanges or three exchanges that happen with people. And the first one, when we talk about step one or stage one, whatever you want to call it, we're really talking about An exchange of the first part of the debate, and notice how we're repeating some of the exact same things we've been talking about. It starts with self-disclosure. And the receiving person, this is the, it is an empathic listener. So when we talk about exchanges, If we're going to talk about being more mutual in community, we're going to talk about connecting in a more intimate way, then one person is self-disclosing and then they need a receiver. Somebody's got to be on the other end. If I'm going to tell somebody I'm struggling or I'm feeling sad or I'm, you know, my brother isn't doing well and I really want to talk to somebody about, just kind of talk about that my brother isn't doing well, you know.

[55:44]

And I'm going to be self-disclosing, but somebody's got to be on the other end. And here's, remember we said earlier, you don't need to fix it. You just have to be there letting me know that you hear what I'm trying to say. Evelyn Woodward is a teacher of St. Joseph from Australia, and she calls this step one, telling and hearing our own stories. Telling and hearing our own stories, that we need to tell and hear our stories, our individual stories, and we need to do it with one another in community because that's who we've thrown our lot in with. This is what we promise each other. We don't promise each other, oh, we'll come together and we'll work a lot and we'll eat a little bit together and everything and that's it. No, we promise that there's got to be some loving connection here. And this is the way I think we can describe it best. It's, we're going to be mutual with one another. So one of the exchanges is, so we're going to tell and hear, really hear stories.

[56:45]

It has to do with self-disclosure and being an empathic listener. Both of these take skill. Both of these take some skill. You know, you get your act together, you're self-aware. It's very much related to awareness. And this has the real skill of being able to walk in the other person's shoes and be a good listener and let them know, by the way, an empathic listener says something. You're not just mute, taking it all in, and I have to figure it out whether you got it or not. You'll let me know that you've got it. You say, oh, you're worried about your brother. It just takes a simple sentence. You're worried about your brother. And I say, yes, I am, and I want to talk a little bit more about that. So that's the first step or the first exchange. When we talk about mutuality, somebody's got to be self-disclosing, and somebody's got to be on the other end. The second step, and we have to practice this enough, this little dance here, we have to do this enough where we really start to get to know one another and it's a fundamental way of trusting one another.

[57:49]

Then the next step, and they are stages in the sense that you really have to get this done before you can do this one well, but the next one is, notice the word I'm using. Challenge. And this is where, this is the fraternal, this is one-on-one, this isn't for the superior to do or somebody who's in charge of something. This is the notion of where we challenge, and I like, again, Evelyn says, challenge to greatness. We challenge each other to greatness. We challenge each other to be the best person that you need to be, that God really wants you to be. Now, notice the word challenge. I didn't say confront. Although confronting is one form of challenging. You know? Sometimes we need to say, you know, you're standing on my foot. Can we talk about you're on my foot and I need you to get off my foot? Whatever the issue is.

[58:51]

So, when we talk about challenge, sometimes we're confronting. asking for something to be different. Sometimes we're given good information, and to be truthful, that's why you gather it as a group, that's why you've sort of wasted time with me for a couple of days. Why? Because you get information, you all have it, you all hear it, you all hear it in your own way, but Information shared like this is a way to challenge people to greatness. That's why you take the time. I mean, this is a, your lives are busy. You don't want to waste time, have it, you know, so you bring somebody in periodically. Why? Because the information, especially heard by the whole community, is really a powerful way of challenging each one of you to greatness. That's why you do it. Remember, you don't do this to then go and be the saint. That doesn't mean your life's going to be totally different, but I hope there's at least one thing, and that's what I always say.

[59:53]

If there's one thing that you hear, you've heard in these last few days, and it's not about me, it's about you. If there's one thing you've heard that invites you to just move more towards fullness and wholeness and a joyful, full life, that I would feel very grateful. So, challenging, confronting, information sharing, sometimes it's by listening to another's story. I can tell you that I've lived with women who are much older than I am, some younger than I am, and when we really listen to their stories and the kinds of choices they make, they do inspire me, they do challenge me to be more authentic. I watch some of them make these great choices. You know, the Benedictine tradition, you have hospitality, it's so important, right?

[60:57]

It is for us too. So I watch it when people are really hospitable and they just push me into being more hospitable myself. I think, right on. You know, they invite me to be a better Sister of St. Joseph. So these are some ways of challenging to greatness. However, here's the thing. If somebody's going to challenge to greatness, either directly or indirectly, there has to be a receiver who's willing to be challenged. If I'm not open, if I won't listen to you when you say, you know, can we talk about what happened yesterday and our kind of angry exchange, I'd like to talk about that. I said I don't want to talk about that. Nothing. Well, if I'm not open to being challenged to greatness, I'm never going to grow, you know. And openness, it can happen. It's not just open to confrontation, but, you know, you could come and sit in a meeting, and I always say that, I'm taught a lot, I always say, you know, you look like you're here.

[62:01]

You know, you give me little smiles, you look like you're listening, but you and I know you could be in another planet, right? So the question is, do you take advantage of it? Do you take the information in? Do you let the information touch you and make you, help you to be different? Or do you not? Or is this just something you have to come to and sit through and then you go back and be listening? And nobody can know about that except you. You know what I mean? So, again, if we're going to talk about challenging to greatness, then you've got to have a receiver. You've got to be willing to be challenged. And by the way, this is an art form of challenging. And one of the things we're terrible at is giving feedback. We're terrible. We don't know how to give good feedback that really invites people to see something that they may be doing that's not quite helpful, that could be done differently, and inviting them to greatness. So that's one of the art forms we have to learn, one of the skills, how to give good feedback.

[63:04]

Because we're not good at it. And so people don't, people get offended or people get... They don't get this clear what we're trying to ask them to do. So how do we get better? These are skills that we have to get better at. And there's one more exchange, just one more. And this is now an amazing one.

[63:22]

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