We were talking the other night in the meeting about what a sangha is and how we constitute a sangha. The three treasures of Buddhism are Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. That's us. One of the three treasures of Buddhism. Do you feel like one of the three treasures of Buddhism? Maybe not, maybe so. One of the earliest statements in the Prajnaparamita

[01:09]

literature of the basic teachings is, no wisdom, no highest attainment, no bodhisattva, no thought of enlightenment. When hearing this, if the bodhisattva when hearing this feels no anxiety and no dread, then he courses in well-gone wisdom, or the well-gone's wisdom. A story I told in the city recently, a couple of times, about

[02:13]

Governor Liu and Nansen. Governor Liu was a disciple of Nansen, you know, the guy who killed the cat. The governor said that Tseng Chau, who lived 400 years earlier, who was one of Kumarajiva's great disciples, had said, the governor said, isn't it strange how Tseng Chau could say anything so funny as, all things have one root and right and wrong are mutually identified? And Nansen said, pointing to some peonies, yes, people

[03:28]

in this present day view things as if they were in a dream. On the one hand, Nansen is criticizing the governor. He's saying, you shouldn't compare yourself to Tseng Chau, you shouldn't put some patriarch's teaching or your teacher's teaching in your own thoughts, you shouldn't compare it to your own way of thinking. Dogen says, you shouldn't try to, Dogen says something like, contaminate with your own thinking what your teacher says, or what Buddhism says. But such statements in Buddhism by somebody like Nansen cover

[04:46]

the three times, you know, and so he's not just saying something critical. He's also teaching the governor and suggesting some direction and describing his practice, your practice. The reason you don't understand, he's saying, something so simple as that is because you see things like you were in a dream. Right now, you should see things like they were in a dream. We practice zazen, you know, with... we have to practice zazen with some commitment, otherwise we won't be able to see our practice through. Halfway along, it gets rather confused,

[05:55]

and you can't tell one thing from another, one vision, or one voice, or one perception. That dream is like, also like, no bodhisattva, no thought of enlightenment, no wisdom, no highest attainment. If you give up your usual way of thinking about things, at first everything, you still try to supply some meaning, you know, so it all becomes like a dream, that kind of meaning, not sure of what's real. And without something strong, you know, like

[07:04]

a commitment to zazen, you'll think you're going crazy, or you'll go from one guidepost to the next, not being able to tell one from the next. So zen practice is a way of standing on your own feet, in the midst of a world which you can't know anything about it, really. So that's one reason, anyway, we create a place like Tassara, so you can give up your

[08:11]

usual way of thinking, and you don't have to worry so much about what to do next. Just trust your practice. Zazen itself isn't what counts, but the commitment to practice. Zazen itself is forty minutes, or two or three periods, sometimes you can't do it, sometimes you can. But the commitment to practice can always be there. So in that sense, the sangha is a place of refuge, just a practical place of refuge.

[09:18]

But if, no, we can't say anything, no highest wisdom, no attainment, no bodhisattva, if there's no way we can describe Buddhism, and if Buddhism is not a system of thought, then how does Buddhism exist in this world? It exists as the sangha. The manifest form of Buddhism in the world is the sangha. So when you take refuge in the sangha, you become the expression of Buddhism. You know, Buddhism, from the beginning, has been characterized

[10:23]

by this kind of thinking. It's not contrary to much of our way of looking at it. It does not emphasize seclusion, except the seclusion of your own zazen. Christian monasteries, you know, were loft in the desert some way, and the monks hardly spoke to each other, or they lived many miles apart. But Buddhist monasteries, you know, were always recommended as a place for the man in the forest to be with everyone else. So the monastery became the place between people who didn't... I don't know. I don't know what to... You can't say layman. I don't like to say ordinary people. That's pejorative. I don't know what word to use. Between people who don't practice, but some of them do. Anyway, if I say monks... Anyway, you know what I mean. Buddha, you know, in his... We say, in the meal chant,

[11:41]

we say, Buddha was born at Katavastu, Lumbini. I don't know where he was born. I'm working another translation. I get the names all mixed up, because I've gone through about 30 names. Which one should we use? Anyway, he was born in Kapilavastu, I guess. I can say it in the meal chant. And enlightened, and taught, and entered nirvana. And those four are rather important, you know. Enlightenment and nirvana, sometimes we get them confused, you know, which is why do we make a distinction. But between them comes teaching. So Buddhism is a path, not a system of philosophy, but something you're initiated into, and you initiate others, you help others along the path by practicing with them.

[12:43]

So Buddha was enlightened, you know, with all beings, or the Bodhisattva, the three characteristics of a Bodhisattva are, he arouses the thought of enlightenment, to become a Buddha for the benefit of all beings, to enlighten all beings. Second, he takes a vow to do it. He just doesn't have the thought. He vows to hold that thought and enact it. And third, he's predicted. And predicted means he has a teacher, that someone recognizes this and agrees to teach him, him or her.

[14:04]

So the Buddha from the beginning is recognized as a teacher, and his nirvana and his full realization comes from teaching. So first, you know, they were supposedly wandering groups of monks with a teacher, and they settled. And from the settlements, usually they had a retreat during the rainy season, and they began to have permanent settlements where they went to during the rainy season. And just like us, while they took care of themselves, they didn't build their retreats themselves, usually outside people built the retreats for them. And the retreats became monasteries, and the monasteries became universities. Very much like something that's happening to Zen Center, actually.

[15:30]

Maybe here we emphasize Buddha or the relationship with a teacher. And in the city, we emphasize dharma. We probably will have some kind of embryonic Buddhist university. And the farm, we emphasize work and the Sangha as a way of participating with people. So that spark of the relationship between the teacher and disciple is present in Buddhism from the very beginning and is part and parcel of practicing Buddhism. And the commitment to continue to practice with others is the realization of Buddhism. So the monks of Buddhism,

[16:52]

the people who are initiates in Buddhism, are not isolated missionaries, though, like in Christianity again, because there's nothing to teach, you know. There's just a way of life. So the monasteries become microcosms of the whole society. In Japan, the monasteries – well, one thing, there's some period called the Nisaya, I believe it's called, which is the ten-year period of dependence on a teacher, which sometimes is considered less. In Japan, it's considered, they usually say, 12 to 15 or 20 years. But the monasteries in Japan nowadays are primarily for that period of time of training, as if you came to Tassajara,

[17:54]

stayed for that period of time and left. The Sangha, in its wider sense, is a hub of the culture itself, where the culture passes through. So from the beginning, Buddhism emphasized the man identity, you know, of the individual, or the emphasis of practice of man among many, or man in the many, or the person in the Sangha. So how do we become a Sangha? How are we a Sangha?

[19:32]

How do we have everyone able to participate in the Sangha? If we consider that one period of practice may need an intensive abandonment of your usual ways of thinking, how can you, at that time, take care of a child? I believe Mel

[20:39]

talked a few weeks ago, or a couple of weeks ago, about children here. And, you know, this Sangha, or the community, extends itself all the time. Now we have, at Green Gulch, we're selling vegetables, and the people who come and buy the vegetables, they become sort of part of Zen Center's community, as many people come here as guests in the summer. And if we have some kind of school in the city, there will be people who want to come

[21:48]

to the classes, you know, who aren't going to ever go to Tassajara or Green Gulch. They'll become some participant in this community. Do you have some questions? If you say something about the function of the ritual, this is something that is difficult

[22:54]

to say. You're new here? Yes. There isn't too much that can be said about it, because it exists, really, when it's ritual, just as ritual. It can't be translated into words. It's like wearing this robe. There's no meaning beyond the wearing of it, and there's no way to know what the wearing of it is without the wearing of it. Part of it, ritual partly develops from the idea

[24:10]

of the vow. Your mind is useful to repeat, to hold something. So our nature is to slip away, you know, always. So our mind is used to repeat it by some mantra or some way of reminding ourselves. So we take a vow to save all sentient beings, say. Essentially, that's what the ritual is, is a kind of repetition. But it has some ... you know, we ... I always have to ...

[25:10]

Talk about, if someone asks this, maybe the idea of natural, because we have this idea that there's something called natural. While, for instance, in Sanskrit there's no word really for natural in that sense, that everything, any gesture you make is a ritual, that everything is ritual. Where does, you know, a gesture become just the position of your hand and turn into a mudra? At what point is the transition made into ritual? From that point of view, for a conscious being, you know, everything he does, there's no such thing as some unconscious natural act. Do you understand what I mean? Ritual is a little difficult, I know, but it's a very powerful, very interesting way

[26:27]

of teaching. Easy example I can make, which is easy to speak about, but it's in the city. We have little figures outside ... Why, what does bowing have to do with going to the toilet? It's not natural. But we are so caught by doing, now I'm doing this and I stop that and replace it by going to the toilet, etc., that there's no space in that. It's almost impossible for us to get out of that space. The only space that gets out of it is ritual. So, if you stop and bow there, you don't know why, it's kind of ... you just do it because it's the rule, and it's kind

[27:32]

of boring, you know. At some point, bang, you know, suddenly that bow is one thousand years long, you know, and the going to the toilet is one second, and what you were doing before is one second, and the world of doing becomes very teeny, some other space. But bow, you'd never find any way in. And our ritual, of course, is meaningless, you know, we just put our hands together, we don't reach out, and we just bow up and down, and that's

[28:32]

all. It doesn't go anywhere. It's rather wonderful. It's completely useless. It's a wonderful feeling, you can just do it, you know you're not doing any harm, you can just bow and bow. I love it. I used to hate it, but now I love it. What do you see in the continuum? The teacher's voice, the child's voice, things that come up over and over again inside, and this one is the teacher, and this one is the child, and this one is the child, and it looks like it's great, and it's just a wonderful feeling, without thinking of anything that can't be done. And it's, it just feels terrible, and

[29:43]

it feels okay to kind of forget, but it feels terrible to hear those words coming out, you know. I don't see anything. That's true. Could you hear what she said? She said, during the summer here now, we have many guests, people who come, who don't know much about Buddhism, and they say, what is zazen? And you don't know quite what to say, and the more you practice, the less you know. You're in the middle of that confusion I'm talking about. And so, you think of something to say, maybe something that's been important to you, or something your teacher said. I'm making longer what you said, but I think I'm saying it right. And it feels lousy. You feel like you're saying, you're doing, you're

[30:52]

contaminating what you say. You're doing some disservice to what you say. It's true, you know, and it's often something that seems so important to you, when it's just said and out of context, and to somebody who doesn't understand how it's applied, it just is some ridiculous, simple-minded advice that you would give to a child. Try hard. Of course, what else? But the problem is, is that the person's field of application hasn't been

[31:56]

opened up or awakened. So, if you have that feeling, you know, at every kind of Buddhism there's that involved. There are many things that can't be said to you now, because your hearing them is just like the guest hearing them. It goes right by you. There are many things you already know you can't tell yourself, because it goes by you like that. So, it's important not to say too much. That feeling maybe is some clue that you've said too much. But sometimes we have to say something, but usually I think just say, try it.

[33:04]

Hmm? Yeah? Why is it that most of the other students use beads, and they're not sure if it's something like that? I think they do it because I do it. Why do you do it? No one did it much until I started carrying them, and now I see lots of people do it. Maybe it's a bad habit I started. We didn't used to actually carry them around. Actually, you know, I suppose actually people shouldn't do it, if we were strict.

[34:09]

Who can carry beads, etc., is some rule. But it's the most common symbol of a Buddhist, and I don't mind. Do you want to sum? I was just thinking that before I heard of all the students in here doing beads, now they're beginning to play with them. Oh, you have to do it silently. I don't know, I like playing with them, and that's all. And various people have given them to me, so that's nice. And sometimes I have some practice beads. Yes. My question is about taking care of something. I'm having trouble telling when I'm taking

[35:24]

care of something and when I'm doing the narrative of the Buddhist that I think I'm taking care of. What do you do when you start thinking it's fanatical? What do I do when I start? Well, I haven't been convinced yet that I'm being fanatical. But it's a clear thing. So I haven't got anything about it yet. Well, when it occurs to you, maybe. It's something subtle, you know, I can't say for you. It's for you to figure out that kind of line. But when it occurs to you that maybe you're being fanatical, maybe that's the first sign. Yes.

[36:46]

Yes. Oh, I can't. I think it says Suzuki Goshi's name. Shogaku Shinryu Daiyosho. Anyway, Suzuki Goshi has several names, hasn't he? He has his name. It's just a plaque for him. I was told what it says once. It's in a foreign language. I never know anything that's not useful to me. I'm sorry. Is it part of our practice to be tired? Always be tired? Yes. I'm not sure.

[37:58]

Anyway, I think it's better to say yes than no. Anyway, it's better to get a little less sleep than you need, for lots of reasons. Anyway, in practice it's better to get a little less sleep than you need. Yes? Whatever happened to the matriarchs? What matriarchs? Well, they're dead. Why has Buddhism always been patriarchal? Oh, I see. That's the teaching of the matriarchs rather than the teaching of the patriarchs. I didn't hear the question. She said, what happened to the matriarchs? This is Los Padres National Forest, the forest

[39:31]

of the patriarchs, right? Maybe. Stretching the translation a bit. But it could be the Los Madres, is that what you call it? I really don't, you know, I don't ... It's a question we ask, but I really don't think it's an important question. Because, you know, maybe it's ... I'm not worried about ... I don't think we should be worried about history. I don't see any difference between men and women. We all practice together here. That's enough. Maybe from now, there'll be such and such

[40:39]

a patriarch, followed by such and such a matriarch, followed by such and such a matriarch. Dozo. Dozo, Japanese means go ahead. Has the climate in America made it possible for women to participate in India, Japan, Thailand, the whole Buddhist world before? It doesn't ever seem to have been for women. Well, I don't think ... yes and no, but I think it's partly seen just as our idea of Christian monasticism, etc., influences our view of Buddhist monasticism. Our own way of thinking about what an individual is influences our view of Japan and China and India.

[41:39]

I would guess that they had a sense of identity which didn't separate off men from women, so clearly as we do. So if the man practiced, that was enough. Certainly they had the idea that not everyone had to be a monk, that a society needed a certain number of monks to practice for the health of the society, so other people didn't have to practice. I think my feeling is it's probably more like that, that it was a man's job to do such and that devoting a lifetime to practice was more for men, but for women, I think women probably practiced as much, but their names are not so known, because mostly very few probably

[42:47]

devoted a lifetime to it. But also cultural ... each culture it is, such practices in. Men have come to dominate the monasteries. How can we avoid that happening here? That's the big question. How can we avoid that happening here? Greece had cities which the god of the city would be Aphrodite or somebody. The name of the city would be Aphrodisias. Hi, Catherine, our Greek matriarch. I suppose we could get

[43:56]

a female deity and put it up here somewhere. I'd like it. They make much better statues than men. I guess the Virgin Mary has nearly supplanted Christ in Christianity. I've heard that the Pope is going to announce that they're equal, Christ and the Virgin Mary. I heard that actually. You know, it's Christianity again, you know, characterizes its experience

[45:07]

or highest form as God. In Buddhism you refrain from giving it any form or name. That's your name, not God's name. Sangha is those of us who are bound together by this realization. And I don't think that knows sex, man or woman. But it is a matter since, you know, in Buddhism the teaching of Buddhism is, as I said, part and parcel of the realization of Buddhism. So it's going to require, I mean, some new idea of family and men and women. And I think a lot of the problem you were talking about the other day in the meeting

[46:12]

of children and how to participate in a community has nothing much to do with Buddhism. It has to do with this whole effort in America right now of trying to find some way to move more toward a body culture or toward a culture in which your identity is involved with other people. And we don't know how to do it yet, so we have lots of problems about it. And Buddhism is a religion or way based upon that kind of identity. So this Sangha is the actual stuff, practice of Buddhism itself. And our cohesion as a Sangha is the way we practice

[47:26]

with other people. And what we're doing here, you know, in the summer is exactly, if not more, essentially, Buddhism than our two winter and spring training periods. Question from audience. I've never heard that he said that, but that's an interesting thing to say.

[48:34]

I've been wondering about that. I never read it, but somebody told me to say it. It must be true that he said so. I don't know, you know, whether anybody's practice is more long-lasting than someone else's. But certainly, men and women's practice is different, and women get into certain kinds of aspects of practice much more rapidly than men do. But men seem to be able to stay with practice longer than women. Women need it, men need it more?

[49:35]

Men need it. That's a theory that both men and women have. Question from audience. Anyway, he said, well, Buddhism would last, the teaching would last for a thousand years, but now it will only last for five hundred years. Yeah, I know that story, but we don't know if that's true. No one knows anything about what happened, you know, for about five hundred years. So that's all made up, you know. It

[50:36]

may be true, but it's still all made up. So, when they say women, they mean not necessarily biological women, they mean a certain person of a certain type in society. Maybe we're more alike now, I don't know. But I don't worry, I don't think about it, you know. There's more difference between two men often than between a man and a woman. It's not important. What is important, how we practice together, you know, and how we make conscious our practice together. I think it's important for a woman to deal with being a woman because the kind of conditioning that goes into having made you a woman in today's society is completely insidious and

[51:42]

impermanent, everything. And so to know what is conditioning and what you really are, what your real capabilities are, physical and mental capabilities, women are just so inclined enough just to say they can't do it, they can't do this, they can't learn this kind of skill, and to know that. That's true, but that's conditioning, and men have the same kind of conditioning toward macho, or toward being intellectual and unable to lift a stone, or all kinds of various conditioning you have, depending on your family. I think that to the extent to which men have not encouraged women to examine their conditioning, you know, that's a problem, but I don't think that's true here. But of course, whatever conditioning you have, man or woman, you have to find out

[52:49]

what it is. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. You know, the... the kind of life we have here is actually the very basis of culture. How we become experts at living together, the bonds we have with each other, which are only possible because we practice together, because we do zazen together, are the very substance, expression

[53:57]

of Buddhism.

[53:58]

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