I just spent a week at Casa Jara and I came back last night. guests. Maybe some of you don't know about Pasahara, but in the fall and the winter and spring, Pasahara is a training place for Zen students. No one comes or goes. And in the summer, Tassajara is open to visiting guests and this tradition has been going on ever since Zen Center took over Tassajara in 1967.

[01:14]

And Tassajara has wonderful hot springs and so a very special place for everybody when they go there. Even if you're there for one day in Paso Haram in the summertime, you feel something very special about it when you leave. And of course, the Zen Center's atmosphere, the practice atmosphere and the attitude of the students created an even more remarkable, made it even a more remarkable place. But ever since Zen Center opened, there's been a kind of division between the guests and the students.

[02:20]

Students take care of the guests and the guests pay money and receive wonderful food, and made a very leisurely existence. While the students always worked very hard, taking care of them, and also taking care of their practice. And taking care of the guests is the way they take care of their practice in the summertime. It's a kind of service that the students offer to people. But recently there's been some feeling that the guests want to participate more with the students, and the students want to have a feeling more of practice with the guests. So last year and this year,

[03:25]

organized what we call a guest retreat where the guests would have some introduction to the practice and have a schedule which they didn't have to stick to unlike the students and I was asked to lead one of the retreats and I didn't know exactly how it would turn out but it was quite wonderful It was really quite wonderful. It seems that there are more and more professional type of people who are interested in practice these days. Of course, there's always been a mixture of types coming to Zen practice and interested. But more and more, I think, certain type of professional people are really appreciate practice in whatever way they can participate.

[04:45]

In the 50s, it was the beat, beat-zan. And although there were many types of people, a lot of young people who were looking for a way to find a lifestyle. And then in the 60s and 70s there's squares in where the teachers from Japan came and organized and offered people an organized way to practice and to find out what that was about. And now Young people are all pursuing careers and making money Looking for money and the Generation of older professional people Already know what that's about and they're looking for some way to find some peace in their life So these people are very much attractive to practice

[06:04]

And when I was at Tassajara, I just heard over and over again what a sanctuary, a refuge, the practice was for people. So it's very encouraging that mature, grown-up people are finding this value of practice in their lives and usually since the beginning of Zen Center we always set up standards and for people certain kind of standard that practice is difficult and you should meet those standards.

[07:05]

And that very much limited the type of person that could participate. But in this retreat, we didn't hold to any specific special standards. And people could come and go and participate any way they wanted to. And it really allowed a lot of people to do something which they ordinarily wouldn't be able to, wouldn't find difficult. I remember when I first started to practice, I would go to a period of Zazen, one period of Zazen, and how powerful that was for me. And I wouldn't need to do Zazen again for another week. I mean, it was that strong, you know.

[08:10]

And it was a big, big experience. And I think for most beginners, most people who are introduced to the practice, one period of Zazen is a lot. So what would seem to a seasoned Zen student as not so much to people who don't have so much familiarity with the practice, it was really a lot. And people seemed very satisfied. So to me, I think there's a new feeling in how we do practice, or how practice reaches people, how our practice reaches people, and what kind of benefits.

[09:19]

I like to use the word benefits, but maybe how it reaches people and what It means for their life. In the, as I say, in the 50s, we had beatzen, where people were just trying to find out. It was some mystique, zen mystique. And people were trying to find out what that was. And they had various ideas about it, but didn't really know what it was. And then the Japanese teachers came to America and presented us with Zen discipline and the history and lineage and actual practice of Zen. And that was a kind of contraction.

[10:23]

There were many, not too many, but there were many teachers who came to America during the 70s, 60s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. About 30 years, almost 30 years. And each one kind of set up a practice, an individual practice, and there were very little cross-fertilization or communication. I think that the practice that was set up followed the oriental feudal system. You know, Buddhism is very ancient in the East, in Japan and China and all over the East. And in those countries where in the past few hundred years

[11:25]

Up till recently, Japan and China have been governed by the feudal system, especially Japan. And the form of Zen practice, or religious practice, really followed the form of the feudal system. And each teacher had their own little life, or place. the people around them are very loyal to the teacher or loyal to whoever was in power and even though in the last hundred years all that has changed a lot there's a very strong undercurrent of the feudal system which still prevails and especially in the ancient traditions like Buddhism And we've inherited, I mean, we directly inherited the feudal system of Buddhism from Japan.

[12:36]

And each teacher set up their own place and discouraged people from going back and forth. And that has its good side and bad side. Democratically, would have its good side and its bad side. So I don't say the feudal system was really bad or good, but it's good and bad. The good side was that it really consolidated people to stay with something. People in the last 30 years of practice in America were encouraged to stay with one thing and really penetrate it. Stay with one teacher and really learn something from that teacher. And so in that way, it was invaluable. But on the other hand, we discouraged recognizing some other teacher or some other students.

[13:47]

They kept people in isolation. and people criticize each other, which is not so good for any of us. So, in the last few years, there's been some feeling of opening that up, you know, people traveling back and forth and visiting other ways, looking at other ways, respecting other ways, learning from each other. So that kind of opening up stage is just beginning to happen now. And in the 70s and 80s, the 70s, there was a big movement to have residential practices where lots of students would live together in a big practice place. And now in the 80s,

[14:51]

there's more of a movement to decentralize or to have more non-resident kind of practice. Like the Berkeley Zindo is a place that's always been more non-resident than resident. So we're very much in style right now. We weren't so much in style for a long time, but now we're kind of mobbed. actually for a lot of people. And I think that's a good, that's pretty good. Some people think that we've been through various stages and each stage will drop away. But my feeling is that each stage has been established and will continue to exist alongside of all the new stages. So residential practice will, although a lot of people who have done that would need to be out in the world.

[16:01]

And people who haven't done it will do it. So my view is that the ways of practice are expanding as the more and more people have practice experience. And there just will be more and more rich opportunities in ways of practicing. But I think that this new direction of the people who have done residential practice for so long to move into a wider field of practice is quite good. It's a kind of growing up and finding out how to live in the world with your practice. How to extend your practice into the world after living in a very close way for a long time, practicing a close way for a long time.

[17:10]

that going out into the world will be a big influence on the world. I don't think that it's never been the style for Zen students to close with us, which I think is quite good. And what has always drawn people to Zen practice is the quality of the students' own lives. That kind of influence. And so the big challenge for people who, those people who will be going into the world on their own more, it will be to keep developing their character as a way to help people, to influence people through their own character.

[18:31]

You can tell people how it is, but it must be genuine through your own activities. So my feeling is that growing up is most important. In this fall, I'm going to go to Tassajara to meet the practice period, the three-month practice period. And when I was at Tassajara, I was talking to the head cook, Tenzo, And she says, well, is there going to be a theme for the practice period? And I thought about it for a minute. And I said, well, it never occurred to me that there would be. I thought about it for a minute and I said, growing up is the theme.

[19:37]

Learning how to take responsibility for your life Last night, I went to a meeting at Glindosch. There were about 20 senior students. And it was a kind of meeting to just see what people had on their minds about the next development of Zenzibit. And one of the things that people talked about was empowerment.

[20:46]

If he's qualified to do what and why and how. And I felt I said something like two ways to look at that. One way is that in the past 20 years or so, very few people have been empowered within Zen Center to teach or to do anything, to be responsible. And it's been a kind of withholding of empowerment waiting for a perfect person to understand everything before they have any authority.

[21:52]

And that's good. It's not bad. But that's the ideal side. The real side is that there have been all these people, hundreds of people, years. What's the result of that? Well, the result is, from my point of view, is that there are a lot of people who are very qualified to do a lot of things, but no one ever told himself So that's a whole other stage of something next. What's next for all those people? What should they do?

[22:57]

All the people in that room were actually qualified to teach in some way. But they didn't feel that they were. Somebody has to tell them. Somebody would say, oh, yes, go ahead, you can do it. So there's really a great treasury of qualification qualified students in America. They're kind of beginning to feel their way in how to take care of our practice and help people with it.

[24:01]

And actually the bonds are cut, but they still feel bound. You know, it's like if you're tied up for a long time, and somebody takes arms off, you still feel the same way. Then you begin to move and you realize you can actually move your arms and legs. So that's very encouraging. And I really feel that there's a need for people So more and more, we have to take responsibility for our life, realize our own abilities,

[25:11]

to go. so I think that maybe.

[27:23]

certain style. I think that as long as we have the basis, I always have the basis there.

[29:08]

Thank you. Get out of here. You know, it depends on the person. I don't think there is a point in it. so

[33:50]

There's a feeling that there's one way to do it, and we all do it the same way, and we all stick together. But nowadays, it's more of a feeling of we're all walking together, but we all have a different shape, a different step. And instead of walking in line, we're walking side by side. Okay. Well, it depends on what tradition you're talking about.

[37:02]

You know, we have some idea about what the traditional way is, but the traditional way is in various things at various times, in various places. And I think that at the same time that as to what your abilities are. Because as everybody goes up, pretty soon, the people that are your teachers are your peers. It's like the flower looks like it has one petal.

[38:04]

And as the plant keeps growing, it gets lots and lots of petals. And pretty soon, all the petals look alike. And you want some verification from the first petal. But, you know, all these petals, they look at each other and say, well, yeah, you know, I recognize you. I think, yeah, I see something in you. And people verify each other naturally. So both is necessary. You know, both, it's not that you just take the teacher out of it, all the places you know where the authority was very hierarchical and it came only from the top down and you know what the Roshi said, it's like gospel and giving cannot hide.

[39:26]

But I have felt for a number of years that that really didn't penetrate deeply enough into the American I know Adrian Ruggie said some time ago that this whole process of incoming comes from the top down. But maybe this is fair. I would say for everyone that certainly the way America is operating, if it doesn't also come from the bottom up, if everybody doesn't recognize their incoming, and with the exercise of all the other students, you know, really recognizing their incoming. In America, if it doesn't happen that way, really well penetrated. He told me I was too careful in the way I put my hand in.

[41:01]

And it was coming out that I was, you know, I think this is a problem with a lot of tennis teams, I was practicing too much, that I wasn't just swimming. And he said that I was going to hurt my shoulder if I escaped. If I swam so carefully all the time, I was losing a lot of energy. But I tried to be so careful when I put my hand in. And, uh... You weren't really swimming. Huh? You weren't really swimming. No, I was practicing swimming. Thank you. Thank you. a little bit apprehensive.

[42:49]

Well, at least everybody's going to go out there and lead, you know. What? But to learn to lead, you have to know how to follow. This is, you know, all the way down to the Boy Scouts, you know. Everybody knows this. You should know it. You don't put people out there as leaders if you don't know how to follow. And when you can really follow and give up your stuff, then at some point, you do it. You go further indeed. Because you find your life enough so that you can do that. So, it's true. And we can't stress that enough. Restraint and self-knowledge is one side and expression is the other side.

[43:56]

We call it driving the wave and following the wave or turning and being turned. But even in those times, I've always been optimistic. Even when I'm down. I can't believe that I'm on your level. The issue or questions which arise around empowerment find some reflection.

[46:23]

There's a classical form for that, or a traditional or classical form. I mean, your position here is the direct result of, well, she's saying, that Brooklyn set up this endowment. And not everybody gets that kind of experience, right? Right. And we all look for it. I spent a lot of time looking for it. It's not that everybody is a teacher in that way. Yes. But... What I'm talking about, you know, is the spirit of this. I'm not talking about It may look like I'm saying, well, everybody should go out and be a teacher. It's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's a spirit of having your own confidence that you can express what you know and help people with it.

[47:33]

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about that everybody should You can get in a robe and go out there and teach everybody. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just talking about the release of that spirit. So that can happen. They have confidence in saying, hey, you know, maybe you practice, you know, you've got to do a little bit of practice, but, you know, you have to work with us.

[49:03]

In some ways, being able to establish the two-way process. And I think that's so important for the protection of, you know, every day of practice and every year of people. Yeah. But, you know, the two-way process is really important. What I'm really talking about is not so much people going around and setting themselves up, you know, I think that's wrong, but just the recognition of what everybody actually has, so they can just feel confidence in themselves. That's all. actually are, yeah, instead of doubting themselves. Do you understand me?

[50:35]

Thank you.

[50:36]

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