talk about this, you know, this isn't going well, or I'm really enjoying our friendship, or our working together, even if we say that, you know, some of these things. So it's not always about bad stuff, but we really need to be a little bit more direct sometimes about me and you, what's happening with us. So these are ways of being mutual. This is what we're really called to, and I think this is what we can promise each other. I think that we'll be, as all those other things, we'll be respectful, and try to understand the reality of another person. We'll try to be respectful and offer our own reality. And we will be self-disclosing at varying levels. And by the way, as we live together longer, it has to deepen. You can't just be at the same level. It will deepen our levels of self-disclosing. We're going to listen emphatically. You don't have to fix it. Remember we said it's a real temptation on men's part to fix it. You're not about fixing. You're just to take it in and let me know that I've been hurt. You will challenge me to greatness sometimes.

[01:01]

And I'll be challenged sometimes by a confrontation, sometimes by listening to your story, sometimes by some common information. I'm willing to be changed and grow and become more. And that's this part. I'm willing to be challenged and to grow and change. We're all in the bucket of growing and changing. And then finally, sometimes we're going to have a more me and you kind of conversation. Because that's what's... required at that time. And then the cycle just keeps going. It just keeps repeating. Self-disclosure, empathy. The only other word I'd add here, and I just, I think it was a grace of the retreat I was just, is really called to, as Jesus did, to practice gentleness. I think we need to be a little bit more gentle with one another, and I think we would be more like the person of Jesus. As I read some of the scriptures, and I think one of the ways, one of the insights that I had in the retreat, I thought it was, it wasn't the original one, it was just something I had read and shared, is that sometimes the way Jesus was gentle is he really, he met people where they were.

[02:16]

And I'm thinking of the story of Thomas. You know, we all get the doubting Thomas story, but really he accepted the fact that Thomas was needed proof. And he just walked in there on that second time. By the way, he knocked on the door again, you know. He had already been there, he just went back and knocked on the door again to be let in. And he goes up to Thomas and he says, here, do this. It's okay, put your fingers in, put your hand in. If that's what you need to do, it's okay. And talk about just letting Thomas be Thomas, you know. And then inviting him to, and then he says to him, he does challenge him to greatness, and he says, you know, there's other people who have vaccines, and they believe. So he doesn't leave him in that place, but he starts with him in that very place where he needs to put his milk, he has to test it. He does not believe without some proof.

[03:18]

And then he takes him to a great place. And I think that's what we have to do with each other. We meet each other where we really are, and invite each other to the great people. challenge you to do this. But that's this first part about understanding. And it doesn't mean we, you know, people don't have to change, but we have to be there with them first in a respectful way. And I think that's what Jesus did with Thomas. He said, okay, I'll meet you there, but I'm not letting you stay there. So I think that was a really powerful insight for me to realize who the perfect Jesus comes in a very human way of being in the relationship that invites us to do the same. He'd like to have to do the thing. This is how he was. And this is what he says. He says, do this. He said, do the same. So that's why I invited you to think about what's real in community. It wouldn't be great if we were all friends, but that's not going to happen. It's not real. But we can, I think, promise each other to be more mutual with one another.

[04:19]

In fact, these require some skills and some religion. stretching ourselves a bit. So what do you think? That's my invitation, I think. Yeah, it's amazing. I've seen it written to stand under. You know, when they were just to stand up and to really kind of try to be with them. Yeah, I had about a bit of one of them. Yeah. I was thinking earlier in these relationships. I've heard it said that men fear most of all being rejected. Is that your experience?

[05:21]

Yes, it is true. Even though I think men tend to say, doesn't bother me any. I don't care. She likes me or not, or he likes me or not. But it's true. In the article I gave you on male intimacy, he talks about that as a tremendous fear that a lot of men came up, that I won't be rejected. So rather than go through that, or have that potentially happen, stay back, keep the walls up, keep the distance. So yes. And what's interesting, sometimes what happens at St. Duke's is we watch the guys who come off and broken, you know, they're struggling now. They come and you watch them really kind of form relationships and connect with one another and you just watch a whole different thing happen because they are, you know, they're more honest with each other and more willing to risk in that kind of a relationship. But yes, I think it is fear.

[06:21]

And that's a good question to ask. How fearful am I of letting the other guys in this room in, or letting anybody in? How fearful am I? So, how fearful am I? You know, and how many times, you know, Jesus didn't talk about sexuality very much, but how many times do you tell it's not to be a thing? I mean, many, many parents, and I think you said it because they needed to hear it so that we don't be afraid, you know, open up, be in relationship with each other, take some risks. Yeah, it'll be messy sometimes. Yeah. It won't always be clean. It's okay. But remember, God gave us this incredible divine energy for connection. And we need to connect in various ways, and we need to connect among us. Anything else? Just kind of corporating out there, get your thinking about with regard to maybe what we owe each other, mutuality.

[07:26]

Yes. I have to mention a lot to me out of this afternoon. You said it very briefly because probably it's so matter-of-fact. You said people have to let others grow old. I think you came with what I said. You came at the age of 19. His siblings were still considering him as 19-year-old. And I think that can harm a community very much when someone is not allowed, as you said, to change. You said that explicitly. Somebody did something a couple years ago, and it's never forgotten. That first, and I think that's terribly harmful. I've witnessed it, that nobody's allowed something happened even 20 years ago, and that sticks in the person's body again, and there's no change about it.

[08:36]

I don't know where we would be, of course, that way with us, you know, but I think that struck me when you brought that up. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And I think we have to pay attention if we're doing that, if we're keeping people in boxes or keeping people not letting them change. And also, I think the notion of forgiveness is a huge one. You know, it's central to the Gospel that we have in Who are we not to practice it? And who are we not to be called to be forgiven? Interesting now, big interest now in psychology and forgiveness. Huge research, all kinds of things going on about forgiveness because people, from a psychological perspective, it's necessary that we let people off the hook. We let them live again. And we really free them from any guilt because guilt is a terribly destructive thing.

[09:42]

It's terribly hard to carry guilt and live a joyful life. So it's really, there's a lot of interest now in forgiveness. And one of the pieces, I'll just share this one piece. In order to really forgive, this is a powerful piece, and it's being shown up over and over again by personal stories. You have to be able to empathize with the person who hurt you. That means you have to be able to put yourself in their shoes and to see how they could have done what they did. It doesn't mean what they did is right. It doesn't condone, especially if they're hurtful, abusive, and all that, but to understand how they could have done that. And that's what it requires. Real empathy, the capacity, so to say, oh, I could see how that could happen in this person's life. Never condoning what they did, especially if it's abusive or hurtful. But, you know what I mean?

[10:43]

And that's, again, this whole thing about empathy, a critical skill here. We're talking right here. If anything, if we could get better at that, walking in a good person's shoes, understanding how they could have done what they did, and never condoning what they did. I think that just plays me. The people that have hurt me most in my life, and it seemed, you know, that I had done it, that's the hurtful, isn't it? Were afraid. I was just thinking of that, you know, just what you're saying. I looked over and they were fearful of their position in some way. And I was attracted, but I didn't intend to be. And they all died, so it helps them to remember these poor people who were very much angry. Yeah, right. And what do people do when they're afraid sometimes? They connect, they've heard of it. And that way, if you can empathize, then you can let them go. By the way... The person who forgives is the person who pains the most.

[11:44]

Because you let them go. You're no longer carrying them. So it is an important thing, you know. And we need to get better at it because the gospel, it's so central to the gospel of Jesus. And that's what he came to tell us. He came to show us how to be. We don't need to imitate, you know, what he did. We need to think how he was in his time. We need to be that way and this time. And so forgiveness, gentleman, compassion, all the big things that we're called to practice well. I think we'll have the new church, because... We'll do a new church, because... Well, especially the poor priests who've been hurt. who've been in trouble, they just kicked out. And that's not ridiculous. No, that's one of the tragedies of this time. It's not, you know, we're in a delicate place as you know.

[12:47]

I think one of the real tragedies is that everybody got put in the same box. You know, it's all or nothing. That's a tragedy I think that put at stake in. I don't think the bishops knew what else to do, to get out of the pressure from the media and from the laity. People were outraged and still are outraged, you know. So, and I'm not condoling bishops, I think they made some poor decisions to be truthful. So I think it's, it was a hard place to be. And then the zero tolerance policy put everybody in the same box. It doesn't seem to allow any room for growth. change, psychological, and then forgiveness. And those are things that are critical, I think, to, I think, who we are, actually, into the gospel. And I don't know what we're going to do to recover from, kind of, really re-incorporate those. Remember that that's who we are. So, when you're too selfish, nervous, but... I know.

[13:53]

I know. And that's true. In many... Right. Right. It's also true for many dioceses that the bishop never talked to the gathering, the whole group, about what was happening, the cost, the impact. The bishops who did have a different relationship with the men. There are many bishops who never gathered their men to talk about. Again, they feel betrayed the jail, like a human being. So that's That's again part of the poor Indian. I'm sure they did the best they could, but we're seeing the consequences of really poor choices here. Do you see any, I mean, I thought that there was one place I heard in the Rockfield Center, a parish there. They knew that their priests had views. They were supporting him because he was helping them

[14:58]

And they were watching him at the same time. And good relationship, you know, and they didn't want him to go. But the bishop was following the principle. Yes, there have been a couple cases like that. There was a case in Chicago with one of the black priests who was welcomed back to the parish. He apologized for the parish and knew the story. There was no hiding any piece of it. And they said to him, we will support you. We will help you stay healthy, etc. And he had been functioning for many years, several years, in the parish with all of this material. And he was removed as well. Because of the one strike, you're out in that policy. So, again, when you only have one thing, everybody sort of sits in the same box. That's the rigid. It is rigid. It is. And it's not... I know people can say, wow, you folks treat these people. But we talk to secular folks who have nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

[16:01]

Fred Burren is one of the big persons who treats persons with sexual disorders or attractions of children or whatever. And he said, he's not trying to beat up the church. He has no vested interest in that. He said it's just a policy that's probably... But it's just, he understands why it's made, but that it's such a blanket all or nothing kind of, everybody at the same door makes no sense. Makes no sense from a sound psychological perspective, nor from our perspective as, you know, as Christians. But that's where we're at right now, which makes it very difficult. Isn't that what happens when the masses control? Because that's what happened with three strokes in your eye. And people want to blow on all of it. And what were three spots in your head left? Well, I do think it was a way of appeasing the media and the outrage, you know, is to say, okay, we'll do this. We'll make a definitive step here.

[17:03]

And I think that's what they were trying to do, is to stop all the criticism. And I think there's a notion of, let's get on with it, let's do this, and then we can go back to life as it was. which is probably the biggest mistake, because we will never go back to life as it was. We need to live through this. This is our ministry right now. Living, suffering through a lot of brokenness, a lot of hurt, a lot of mistrust, and seeing where it's calling us as a people and as a church. Where is it calling us to? What needs to happen differently? So it's, I think it's a false notion to say, well, let's get this title moving down back to, no, no. This is it. And this is going to be it for a while. I thought there was some hope when the Pope had a commission of non-cathletes, psychiatrists, psychologists and all that, and they said the American church went too far. But that doesn't seem to be transpired, doesn't it?

[18:10]

Well, you know, and there's so much pressure, I mean, to be truthful, to any hint of not following through and keeping this very rigid policy, they're going to get nailed. It's sort of like a catch-22. If they don't, they're going to get nailed. If they do, they're going to get nailed. They're losing. There's a lot of mistrust from the priests. There's a lot of upsetness. They live in the clergy about this. They don't feel heard. They don't feel included. They don't feel like they matter. So we have a morality issue rising, I think, and it's that rising. And then we have Davidia saying, if they make one step other than doing this, zero cowards, we're going to come in and come and get you. So they're in a very tight place. I mean, it's not an easy place. I don't know how we segue to that, but it's important that we talk a little bit about it. It's part of our reality, your reality. I mean, it is impacting all of us. And that's true, you know, it impacts all of us. I've had lay people say, I'm embarrassed. I feel ashamed that this is happening to our church in Elmigrano.

[19:13]

These are people who have committed lay people who are just beside themselves, trying to figure out what to do. My good friend, Bob, who I talked about, He's a very starchy. He's a knight of wealth. He does all that stuff. You know, he's a wealthy man. And I had breakfast with him on Sunday, and he said to me, Mike, he said, I don't know. I don't know. He said, I'm just so frustrated with the choices that have been made and everything. And then I said to him, you know, this is the time of real rethinking what it means to be church and look at how we are church as well. And so I'm encouraging him to stay in that. in the conversation there, because he is a good man, and we'll call for some justice and some truth. And at the same time, he suffers. And his kids, he's got four 25 to 30-year-old kids, and he worries them, he said, because they're right at the edge of the living church. And that's what he worries about. He said, I'm going to be okay. My kids, I wonder, and they now, especially when they're home, they all live in church.

[20:18]

They're wonderful kids. They're wonderful families. But I can understand his worry. You know, he's really worried about them. Will they have a faith life? How much have they been impacted? I've said to them, they'll be fine. I mean, they've got them up well. But it is challenging for young people who say, what is this? You know, I'm not going to hang around in this. They don't have as much investment as a parent or something. But that's another strange phenomenon. Just been to take two generations just to happen like that. Why crack it in like a cat? I mean, you know what it is. My friends, there were big chassis, but the kids don't have it. And sometimes the people would say, the way the priest says mass, you can't ask the kid to go. But anyway, that's from the other side. And this seems to be just all of a sudden banging out. There had to be a build-up of some sort. It's actually World War II, but anyway.

[21:20]

But anyway, it really is. But no. Yes. Yes, you could get a story. I mean, they don't belong with it. The gift of these kids that I talk about, they're very much into, these kids have been volunteers, volunteers. We're talking about generous young people, you know, and they're just right on the edge saying, you know, I'm not going to go, they're hypocrites. And you know, we'll watch them kind of scroll with them. You're right. I mean, I have no one. I don't know. It's interesting. We have more Catholics than ever, as you know. We have more Catholics than ever. We have fewer than going to the liturgy. The Sunday Mass attendance is way down. And we have fewer priests. So it's an interesting time. What was that? Maybe we live in an interesting time. Maybe it's a blessing. We're certainly bitter. It's an interesting time. It's hard because there are other issues, too. like the war and things like that that are playing up with young people. Well, not just young people, but a lot of people.

[22:22]

And it's easy to get disillusioned all of a sudden on things like that. But I guess it's just, well I shouldn't say, I guess I know it's trusting God that's the idea. Yeah, I think really listening to the invitation of this time. Who are we called to be now? And it is a very anxious time. And that's why I think, not this is simplistic, but I think that's true. I think that's why we have a great rise in fundamentalism. Simple answers. Absolutely. It's very anxious. It's a very anxious time. And so if you'll tell me that this is right, and this is the way to do it, I'll go there. And so we have a hope of them. They're not right. They're intelligent, but there's an anxiety that they try to take care of sometimes with some sure answer. But it's interesting because there are more than one type of evangelical. That's right. We get the Sojourners magazine, and that's quite different.

[23:26]

I was in the Catholic Worker and so forth. Well, the director, Peter Mark Faram, director, was friends with Jim. I'm trying to think of his last name. Anyway, but they are evangelical Christians. They don't seem to have the simple answers. They have the harder answers. And they really hit the nail on the head, I think, a lot of times. And my whole family is evangelical. They would not agree with this. No. For sure. I would like my sister to read the magazine, but I'm not going to... I prayed about it and told you don't force it. You just pray and you just hope. that somehow, someway, you know, which they're probably doing, me too. Not from living in the monastery, but my political opinion. Well, you know, it reminds me of, and then maybe we can conclude off, is, you know, the Lord of the Rings is very popular, as you know, it's very popular and everything.

[24:34]

And it's interesting, because fundamentally, the Lord of the Rings, There's a couple of basic messages. And one of the messages is life is a journey. And other messages, one of the profound messages, there are several ways to get to the end. You have to discover the paths. And then the other one, the message that I think is so profound, so much fits with what we're talking about, is the other message is you don't do this without companions. Nobody does the journey of the Lord of the Rings without companions. Companions. So it's a powerful movie, a powerful trilogy, you know, really well done, that really highlights journey. There are multiple pathways, you know, and you have to discover the pathways. Sometimes you get a little lost, you know, and then the final piece, you know, we have to do this by ourselves. What a wonderful way we can... really help our young people.

[25:34]

And that's what will keep the young people connected to us if we speak, which is really the gospel. We speak there and tell them that Jesus came to tell us who God is in this great video and not this little one that we sometimes the contrary checker. Anyway, well, thank you for this evening and we will see you in the morning. The last one. last conversation in the morning, and I'll be off, and you'll be, hopefully, have sun. See? Thanks much. Two things, really, and then we'll see if you have any questions. Let's do two things. See what kind of questions you have, and that'll be a way to talk a little bit, to a little concluding, you know. First thing I'd like to talk about is what often people say is, well, what does it look like if we were perfectly together? Which... None of us are, but if we were perfectly together, what does integrated sexuality look like? In other words, where are all the components of integrated sexuality?

[26:34]

And then we'll talk about where some unintegration happens, where the possibilities are. And then the last piece I'd like to do is I'd like to spend a little time on what we call emotional intelligence, which has to do with your feeling life. And in particular, I'd like to share with you the components of what we call, you know, we use new lingo, but emotional intelligence. What does it mean to really be aware of your feelings and other people's feelings? What are the components? And there are six that I'd like to just kind of... let you get a look at it. And again, we always ask, how am I doing with each of those areas? And I think, you know, I haven't met anybody who's totally integrated, who has it all together. So it's a nice way to say, look at the areas, see which ones you're better at than others, and then which ones you might want to work on a little, because we're always working on something. And then I'll share particularly how men avoid feelings. And they're like, eight or nine things that men have learned to do that really take you out of your feeling around. And that might help because this emotional intelligence stuff is really important.

[27:37]

It's really something that we really need to get better at. So those are the two pieces I'd like to do this morning. And then we'll see what else comes up. Does that sound like a good agenda? All right. Well, we'll start with the first one. And I'd like to talk about psychosexual integration. So when we talk about, you know, if all of us were perfectly integrated, what would it look like? Or what are the components? What are all the pieces? And we'll take a look at those. And as I said before, the nice part of it is I've never met anybody yet who's there. So we can all breathe a sigh of relief and say we're in process here. And so let's take a look at what the process is about. OK. These are the elements. These are the capacities. Notice what it says. The following capacities are really what make up for an integrated person, or a person who's dealt sufficiently with their sexuality, or needs to be in process with these things.

[28:44]

So if you notice, you'll hear me repeating some of the things that we talked about at the very beginning about what does it mean to be sexual. So if you look at the first one, it says to perceive, obviously, and feel positively about my own body. So it starts with your body. Very simple. To perceive that your body is okay. Now, anybody here who's perfectly... Comfortable with the body you can. You wouldn't change a thing. You wouldn't change one thing. You're just perfect. Almost, sorry, but that's about as close as we ever get. Almost, you know. And some of us have grown to be more comfortable. But I don't know anybody who wouldn't like to be maybe a little taller or a little thinner or a few more hairs or a few more, you know, I mean, we're all in process with that kind of stuff. But basically, you feel positively about your own body, about your own gender, that's being a man and liking being a man, not just tolerating it with women, liking being a woman. And then the same thing, obviously you need to be aware of here, but it's awareness of and feeling positively about your own sexual orientation.

[29:51]

So it's a lot in one sentence, but that's part of what it means to be integrated. Now, any one of those is still, if you're still in process with, you don't like that part of you. Then we talk about... That's part of the journey you need to be on, about then moving towards awareness and acceptance and then integrating whatever facet of it is, if it's your body, if it's being a man, or if it's your sexual orientation. The first two, a lot of people don't often have problems with it, some people do, and then orientation sometimes is a big issue depending on where you are in that continuum. As we said earlier, it seems much easier to be heterosexual than to be in another place on the continuum. The second thing is, and this is why we're going to talk about emotional, but notice it says to express affection. So to be affectionate, and obviously it means to receive it too, in ways, and to do it both verbally and physically. So verbal affection, you know, I care about you or I miss you, whatever the words are for affection.

[30:53]

I love you. I mean, those are appropriate words to say to certain people, you know, family and good friends. And notice... in ways appropriate to the relationship. So we're always talking about, do I realize what this relationship is I'm in, and am I being appropriate? And one of the signs of not being integrated is not being aware of that you engage in inappropriate behavior, and when somebody points it out, you say, oh, no, not me. I mean, no, I don't do that. When, in fact, you did just do that. You know, you might be too self-revealing. You might touch a person inappropriately and somebody said, you know, touch me and you say, oh, no, I didn't. So notice what happens in here. An unintegrated person frequently will not be aware of that they do inappropriate things or when pointed out, they will say, this is not me. This isn't who I am. So that's one of the signs of integration here, right? But again, the notion of affection,

[31:54]

verbal and physical, and then in ways that are appropriate. And then we have to say, as committed men, as men, vows, and celibacy, what does appropriate verbal and physical expression look like? And by the way, it might differ for each of you in the sense of it doesn't mean there are no norms. But because we're different, you know, I come, as you said, from that Italian family, a little more of a toucher, but I have to be careful that I don't touch inappropriately to other people. You have to pay attention to who they are as well. So you just have to know there'll be some variety here, but you need to pay attention to what's appropriate and what's not. The third one says to be capable of genital love and orgasm. And what that means is it's really talking about not being so afraid of your genital sexuality that you would never be able to, if you had the opportunity, if it was for you to be in a marriage, for example, that you'd be able to express your genital love. This says you have to have the capacity. You don't want to be incapacitated, etc.

[32:58]

So it's always having the capacity, but in this case, you would not exercise it as I wouldn't because it doesn't fit with who we are. So notice it doesn't say exercise it. It says have the capacity. Know that you could, but in this case, it's a free choice not to do that because it doesn't fit with who you say you are. The fourth one there talked about to distinguish between desire and love or between lust and love. You know, and there's a real difference, you know. Sometimes we can, and to understand really what loving is about, which a lot of people don't. And that was interesting. I did some work, I think I said with you, with the students at Washington University. And one of the conversations we had is they said, would you talk about what it really means to love someone? We don't think we know. And that was a profound question. What does loving really mean? Because it's all tangled up in our culture with sex and things like that. Now, genital sexuality should be a wonderful expression of loving in a committed relationship, but you'll understand what they're saying.

[33:59]

These are young people saying, what does it really mean to love somebody? And then they ask me to come back and talk about friendship. What is friendship? What does it really mean to be a friend? Because, again, the messages are crazy out there, and they're trying to figure it out. So if they're trying to figure it out, we might not always be clear either. So this is saying... Do we know what the difference between lusting or desiring someone and really loving them? And remember, love is more than a feeling. Love has to do with some decisions that we make. Sometimes we don't even like a person that we love sometimes because they make poor decisions. So it's a good distinction. This one says to be intimate. Notice, and again, by the way, this is the list that we would use with everybody. This isn't, you know, the religious life list. This is the big list. And we'd say to be intimate with persons of both sexes, without fear or aversion, and aversion. So now, intimacy, again, is going to differ by what your life form is, you know.

[35:00]

You would probably have... less capacity in general to be intimate with women because you have contact with them, but you have contact with them that's not as much as you would with the men, for instance, because you live with men. You know, it would be the same thing with me. I have more contact with women sometimes. But it's the intimacy, it's that capacity to be your authentic self, you know, take off the masks and be real with either sex, with both sexes. Without fear of either one of the sexes. Or aversion. I don't like women. I don't like men. That kind of thing. So again, it's having moved to a fact that you appreciate the other half of the population, whether it be men and women, and you're able to be in relationship with them. And remember, intimacy happens at degrees of intimacy. So again, you might have a long-standing woman friend, for example, that you've corresponded with and that you have conversations with. And that's what we're talking about here, intimacy.

[36:01]

Remember, it has many facets. It's not just about genital intimacy. The next one, to be alone when necessary or chosen. Isn't that an interesting way to say it? Really, we're talking there again about solitude. We're going back to the very first slide I showed you that said... If our sexual energy is functioning and flowing well, it will move us to solitude and to intimacy. So what this is saying is if we're going to live a healthy sexual life, and this would be true for, you know, I would be saying this to lay men and women as well, you need time to be alone. And that includes away from your partner. Sometimes you just need some space in there. And you need to be, and sometimes it's when it's necessary, you know. And sometimes when it's chosen, you know, for example, I travel a lot. So there's moments for me when I'm in an airplane or I'm sitting in the airport and now the sits are longer because the connections are often long. I'm sitting in an airport sometimes for a couple of hours waiting for the next flight.

[37:03]

So that's an opportunity. Now I could go talk to people and I enjoy people. So I sometimes do. I know some people start up a conversation. But sometimes I just... Choose to just be there, and I might have a book in front of me, or I might be doing a little journaling or something, but just take some quiet time, some time for solitude. And if you just need a break, you just can't be always responding to people. And the same thing is, that's why it's necessary. Sometimes I don't choose that, it's just necessary. I have this two-hour wait I'm going to do with the space. And then sometimes you choose it. And that's, you know, like I just came back from a week's retreat. We came away. We take some quiet time during the time. Sometimes I just turn the radio off in the car. Like I'll be on the way down today. I have about a five-hour ride, I think, you know, four-and-a-half-hour, five-hour ride. A lot of that time I just turn it all off and just kind of be, process a little, you know, my experience here. I'm still processing my retreat, you know, kind of think about it. And I'm getting ready to go back. meeting my staff, you know, how do I want to be with them?

[38:06]

You know, so I think you get a little chance to pull some things together. To value and encourage sexual behaviors that are growth-producing for oneself and for others. Now, sexual behavior here does not mean genital sex. It means all kinds of behaviors. Remember we said it's about conversation, it's about touch, it's about affection, it's about And then we have to look at the notion of fantasy again in the auto-erotic, you know. So we say, okay, if I engage in fantasy, if I kind of get on a roll of engaging in fantasy, is that really promoting my life, my integration of my sexuality, if I'm fantasizing about a relationship with a whomever? And it's not about being a celibate male, etc. Is that helping me integrate my sexuality, or is it helping me disintegrate? So what this is saying is, we have to look at the behaviors that we engage in that are sexual in the broadest terms, touch, affection, conversation, fantasy, all of those, and say, how are those promoting my integration?

[39:17]

Or are they helping me disintegrate? Are they helping me disconnect from a healthy sexuality? And so those are all individual questions you have to ask, and you have to look at, again, we don't want you to be hyper and anxious, but this is an awareness question, again. This is awareness. What am I doing that fits in the area of sexuality, and how does it fit with who I say I am, and how am I being invited to more integrity, to more integration? Then the last one that says to integrate your sexuality into a total outlook on life, So it becomes an aspect or a dimension of your life. It's not the lens to which you look through life. It becomes such a part of you that you walk more at ease. You're not self-conscious about your sexuality or about who you are. You feel more at ease with yourself, and you're able to... It's not the lens through which you look through life. Let me just go back to the sexual orientation one.

[40:18]

When a person has integrated their orientation, They don't have to have it be the first thing that they say to people or the first thing they're always thinking about. Why? They're aware of their orientation, they've accepted it, and they do it with more peacefulness. And they live as a man, as a celibate male, and I happen to have a same-sex orientation or a bisexual orientation. That's part of the picture. It's not such a driving force. So again, unintegrated sexuality would say to me that sexuality is prominent in your life. It's always on your mind. You're distracted by it a lot, rather than it's a part of your life. Now, depending on where you're at in your life, sexual energy may be, it ebbs and flows. So at a given time in your life, it might be very demanding. You might feel a lot of sexual tension. Well, then you ought to pay attention to that. But I'm talking about in general. It becomes a part of you. And you name yourself as a sensual person, but it's not something that's causing you so much anxiety or so much agitation.

[41:25]

Does that help me to kind of take a look at that these are the facets that we talk about integrated sexuality. And let me talk about a couple of other signs of perhaps lack of integration that might help you. And yet, this is good for you to pay attention to your own dreams, but it's also good when people are talking to you and they talk to you about good luck, they say, aha, okay, this is something this person probably needs to address a little bit more, and maybe even professionally. I think here's some thoughts that I would offer in this area. One of the things has to do with relationships. And the more integrated you are, the more you are able to develop and sustain. Those are two words, develop and sustain adult relationships. Adult relationships. Sometimes what we see is with unintegrated sexuality is we see people who have difficulty, and it's in this relational area, difficulty relating to adults.

[42:34]

but they relate better to children or to adolescents. I could tell you about one, we had a novice that I was talking to, and we were talking to him about his relational life, and they were concerned about his relational life, and part of what he said is he wasn't very much related to the other novices, and this guy was in his early 30s, we're not talking about somebody who's 17, we're talking about somebody who's early 30. And one with Peter, he had struggles with, he was having trouble relating to the other men in the house, but his ministry, they do part-time ministry, his ministry was with youth. And so he loved hanging out with the teenagers. And he was like the old Pied Piper with the teenagers. And loved hanging out with them, but was having a real difficult time developing and maintaining relationships with his peers, with the other guys who ranged in age from like their mid-20s to their early 40s. So that's a sign. That would be a sign of you saying, hmm, what is it?

[43:35]

Now, it doesn't mean you don't like adolescents or you don't work well with adolescents. We meet people who are good youth ministers. But you hear the difference here? Here we have a person who enjoys and likes and wants to go and spend time with the adolescents and doesn't do well with his peers. Then I'd say, something happened. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's sexual abuse, but something happened that he doesn't keep growing enough that his adult relationships are the major focus, not hanging out with kids. So that's a sign when we look at people's relational life of unintegrated sexuality. It says, what happens to them that they feel more comfortable with younger people than they do with people their own age? And they're not developing and sustaining. And those are two words. You need to develop them, but you also need to sustain them, which is going back to the intimacy notion. You stay connected, you know, you get connected, and you stay connected, and you let the relationships grow. Otherwise, it's like people get, people are good sometimes at saying hello, but then they can't sustain the relationship.

[44:37]

Something needs to, they need to work on something. That's definitely the same with older people, too. Yeah. That's a very good point, because, again, Older people are going to treat them differently. They might be like a father-son kind of relationship, you know, that kind of thing. Or a venture versus, say, versus a little bit more of the peer-relating. So, or, like, for example, if the same guy was related well with the novice director or the professor of the house but didn't relate to his peers, again, I would say, what's happening here? Something isn't quite as integrated as it needs to be. We need to do a bold hand. They need to relate to their peers. Because that's where they're real... friendships should occur and be able to relate to younger people, older people, but not focus on anyone. So it's a very important thing. A second thing that when we talk about integration is, again has to do with relationships, is the inability to really make and sustain a commitment. So if you have people who have short term commitments, they just never seem to be able to make and sustain a commitment.

[45:47]

so that they are able to be in relationship over a longer haul. They're always moving around. They go from this thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing. Then again, speaks to me again, I would wonder what happened. I would wonder, and again, it could be a whole range of possibilities that the person is not able to be in relationships, whether it be in a community situation or with other individuals, and commit themselves and hang in there in the tough and anxious times. It goes back to the intimacy thing. So not having a great capacity to connect and stay connected. I need to wonder about that. Again, I'm just raising some wonderings. We don't know all the stories. A tendency, here's another one, a tendency to be excessively judgmental or self-righteous. with regard to certain behaviors or attitudes. So, judgmental or self-righteous. Again, you'd say, because I think what we say is that, you know, we need to be well open to the fact that there is diversity in the area of sexuality, et cetera.

[46:51]

And if people hold a rigid line and say, this is right and this is wrong, et cetera, then I would wonder what it is they're guarding. And so it would raise questions for me, again, about, I wonder, whether it's that kind of rejecting. what's happening, and where are they trying to control, and maybe they're trying to control something internally, which often sometimes, when people are externally controlling, they often are trying to control something inside, which would make me raise questions about their own acceptance of their own sexuality. So, again, I'm not judging, and again, you have to look at each person individually, and walk with each person individually, but those are questions. If you tend to be kind of rigid and judgmental, you want to look at what is it about my own sexuality that I may not be in full sync with, and I tend to put it out there, you know, sort of say right and wrong, and you may be trying to do some controlling of your own inner stuff. And then the final one, which is clearly a little bit more clear about, those are more subtle signs of lack of integration.

[47:54]

There's one that's more clear, and that is when a person engages in unhealthy or abusive behaviors that are sexual in nature. when a person engages in unhealthy or abusive behaviors. For example, when we have people engaging in casual or anonymous sex. People using pornography. I know in our culture pornography is considered no big deal, but really it's making an object of a person and using them for our own pleasure that's really unhealthy behavior and can't even be quite the use of nature as well. So we talk about, again, our status behaviors. Casual or nonless sex, use of pornography, the using of gratification, becoming gratified sexually with children or adolescents, and really the compartmentalizing of my sexuality. So they might be very pious, et cetera, and sexuality gets separated out from their life.

[48:57]

And so we dealt with men, for example, who are acting out sexually, and I'm talking about with adult women, and yet wouldn't think of not saying an office every day. So they get, sexuality is separated from their spiritual life as a priest, et cetera, and they don't see the contradiction. And so they're saying something isn't together here. You see boxed compartments. And what we need to do is live one life with all the pieces, and we're trying to integrate all the pieces. So I hope those are helpful. Again, it may not be your story with some of these, for example, some of those behaviors, but you'll hear people. I think it's a conflict with people who are priests, and you hear confession, you hear reconciliation, we're hearing people talk about these things. And even when I were a young priest, I was doing a retreat for priests, young guys, all ordained five years or less, and there were 26 of them who came together on their own, and they invited me to come and do some talking, and one of them came to see me personally, And he was 32, he had been ordained about four years, and he was engaging in anonymous, casual sex on a regular basis.

[50:02]

And unprotected, which there's no such thing as real protective sex anyway, you know, these condoms work and they don't, you know. But this young man at 32, and I said to him, obviously I said, are you disturbed by this? And he said, somewhat. And it was really shocking in some ways, although I've heard most of it. And then I said to him, what made you talk about it today with me? And he said, we had been talking about intimacy. And he said, what I realize is that I don't want to know who they are. I don't want them to know who I am. I just want to have sex and get out of there. I don't want a relationship with me. Now that clearly... is a clear sign of unintegrated sexuality. And it's not because he's a priest that is unintegrated. It's because he's a human being that he's acting like this and putting himself in great danger with casual, anonymous sex on a regular basis.

[51:05]

And when he wasn't doing that, he was using pornography on the internet. So his whole life, you know that sentence that says here, sexuality is integrated, it's an aspect. Really, sexuality was his life. So you can see him at the big neon sign on integrated sexuality. With others, it's more subtle. You know, not having good relationships. Questions or comments? Let's try to give you the big picture of what we talk about. What does integrated sexuality look like? And what does it look like when it's not integrated? And it's important that all of us are on the journey of integration. I haven't yet to met anybody who's made it. But what you might ask yourself is, in any of these areas, what am I better at? And where am I being invited to grow today? Any comments or questions that you'd like to offer? Well, I got a question. It's going back to take one bridge. I kind of wanted to stay with the other.

[52:07]

Is there, like, you take a job person in sport or something. The fellow wants to stay young, so he plays. He doesn't really want to, you know, he might be 40 years old. I mean, came in 18, but in his mind he's still 18. And he functions. I mean, perfect. But I mean, here's two guys that, for instance, they're both, uh, dreaming what they're doing, but one, He goes, and every day his age goes by and the other one says, I'm 18, I'm 18, I'm 18. He stays there and wants to stay there and he's making big bucks doing that. I mean, whatever it is, what is, is there something wrong with that? Well, I would say, I don't know if we want to put right and wrong. I wanted to put right and wrong. I don't know if there's a right or wrong, but I wanted to say right or wrong.

[53:12]

Well, let me say this. I would say, you know, it is really a fact of life that we age. Right. I don't care what he does, and he can do Botox, and he can have surgery and all that. His body is aging no matter what. And I think what I would want to talk with him about, you know, if he was talking to me, I would say to him, First of all, we live in a youth-oriented culture. I mean, our culture is highly youth-oriented. Even though the graying of America, we are graying and the baby boomers are getting up there, we're seeing some shifts in the notion of, you know, you can be older and still live a vibrant life, but it's a very youth-oriented culture. So I would want to talk to him about sort of buying into that the only good place to be is to be young and to be 18, because And that, because it's really, it's not real. It's not real, but I'm just saying it's real for him. Sure. He made a big buck through it. Just think of, you know, what the other guy aged and, you know, felt that they... Well, I mean, I can really say something has happened that he's somewhat stuck.

[54:21]

in a very narrow understanding of what it means to a human being. That human beings are young, all the time. That's not true. And so I would wonder what it is, the driving force, that keeps him wanting to be 18 when in fact he's 32 or 42 or 52. Now he's 58 and still think he's 18. I mean, yeah. There's nothing wrong with taking care of your body and being useful. But the point is, it's not real. So I would want to know why he's stuck. It's like, why are somebody still not going to go? You know, three of us walk together and I'm saying, well, he's still there. And there was one other question, this last one. You said you knew one priest. I know a thousand people like that that just go up and have casual sex, both sexes, man and man. So there's not just, you know, I mean, he was caught up as a priest. I know a personal example.

[55:28]

I'm just saying there are people who have unintegrated sexuality and that's one way to expression of it is this casual having sex and really putting themselves at risk and really not having a relational life. Remember, sexual energy Right back to the definition. Sexual energy is about connection. It's not about any kind of connection, though. And it's certainly not focused on genital connection without a relationship. So it's so contrary to the energy. So you can imagine what the person's life is really like. This young man, really, was one of the saddest men I've ever met. He was so sad, really. And we talked, and hopefully he... was going to pursue talking with somebody where he's at to begin to say what happened. And we don't need to tell you the other parts of the story that I know, but I understand why, part of why he got where he's at. But he needs to make some good choices about not engaging and continuing the behavior that he's engaging in, because he's not able to total self-destruction.

[56:34]

I mean, there's just no way he's going to live any kind of life. And it's, again, not because he's a priest, but because he's a human being. He has no life. Well, yeah. See, I'm saying he said he wasn't about the end of a religious life, because the people that are in the sector of the world, they go off, they might go to a house, however you want to put it, they They go out and they do what they have to do and then they come back and just maintain their living and making a living and just using his objects just going off and doing what they have to do to get reification there and then coming back and function and that's

[57:39]

What's going on? I don't disagree. I don't disagree. There's a lot of unintegrated sexuality, including behaviors like that. Let's switch it a little bit, because I know we might say I'm trying for a time like this. We're talking about emotional intelligence. What we're really talking about here is the capacity to deal with your own emotional life. And it's always about me. That's what's interesting about sexuality. It's never just about me.

[58:11]

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