Yesterday I read the verses at the end of the chapter on yoga practice And then I talked about the bodhisattva initiation ceremony. So the initiation ceremony offers a kind of a context for bodhisattva practice or a mandala, a structure. And in that overall mandala you find the yoga practice of the bodhisattvas inside that mandala.

[01:12]

And the bodhisattva initiation ceremony is a way to be initiated into the practice of bodhisattva yoga, which we've been studying a little bit during this intensive a few days ago Dr. Olson said he remembered me saying something about a conversation I had with a Tibetan Rinpoche named Harutoku Rinpoche and Ray remembered me saying something and what I said to him was he asked me about our meditation practice and I said we practice objectless meditation In other words, we're trying to practice meditation on this teaching of the sutra, which is that what we see before us is not separate from us.

[02:35]

That what our mind knows is not separate from mind. and he said, oh that's, we have that practice but it's very advanced practice, lots of preparations for it. And the preparations for it are sometimes spoken of in terms of, you can see them in the Abhatam Saka Sutra in terms of, for example, Samantabhadra's vows. So preparations are practices like making offerings to Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. praising the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, taking refuge in Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, invoking the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, invoking their presence, practicing renunciation, practicing confession. These are practices which are

[03:39]

in a sense, preparations for the objectless meditation. And in Zen those practices, that context of those practices needs to be there too. And the bodhisattva initiation ceremony shows that, demonstrates that context. So when we do our bodhisattva yoga in the Zen school or in the Vajrayana school or whatever school of Mahayana Buddhism, It's good if we understand the mandala around our practice. The mandala of, as I practice yoga, either before I practice it, or I make my practice, I make this practice, an offering to the Buddha's. or I make offerings to Buddhas and then I practice.

[04:42]

In Zen you might feel more a feeling of the Zen monk makes her offering, makes her practice, makes her yoga practice an offering to Buddha. Of course she can offer light, candles, incense, tea, whatever to Buddhas, that's fine too. And she can make prostrations to Buddha. but her actual yoga practice is offering to Buddhas. She can verbally and physically praise the Buddhas and bodhisattvas, but her sitting, her yoga practice, can also be seen as praise of the Buddhas. She can pay homage to the Buddhas, but her yoga practice can be homage. Homage is different from praise. You can praise someone without aligning yourself with them. For example, you can praise yourself with some skilled person but not necessarily sign up to learn their skill.

[05:48]

Paying homage means you not only appreciate the person but you wish to join them in their goodness. So these practices of offerings and praise and homage can be done, and we do do them sometimes, but also every time you sit you can feel that way, that you make this offering, and not just to Buddhists and bodhisattvas, but to all beings, which includes Buddhists and bodhisattvas. And that's the beginning of the precept initiation. The initiation through this form and through receiving the precepts is not just initiation into precept practice, It is initiation into bodhisattva yoga. It's precept initiation, but it's through precept initiation you are initiated into the yoga practice of this sutra.

[06:56]

and then we just ongoingly study yoga. So this is text and many others to study yoga but it's in the context of this initiation. The next step in the initiation into the practice of yoga as shown in our precept initiation ceremony. The next step before receiving the precepts is the next step before really practicing bodhisattva yoga is the practice of renunciation. So offerings, offerings, homages in terms of prostration, invocation.

[08:24]

And someone asked me what this stick symbolizes or what it's for. And I heard one priest being asked that same question. He says it's to hook the Buddhism bodhisattvas and pull them into the room for ceremonies. It's also a back scratcher. Etc. You could dip it in ink probably too and use it as a pen. Renunciation is the next part of the ceremony or you could say it's the next aspect of the context or the mandala in which the bodhisattva yoga practice occurs, the mandala in which the zazen of the bodhisattvas occurs, sitting meditation of the bodhisattva.

[09:27]

So it's possible to do sitting meditation in other mandalas. So people sit in meditation on the planet at various places but they may be sitting in different contexts, surrounded by different preparations and setups. The surround of the bodhisattva yoga is offerings, invocation, and the next layer of the mandala is renunciation. So one picture of the mandala, another picture of the mandala of the Buddha way is maybe if you look at it, if you're looking at it, if it has a base and a top and a right and a left, you could maybe imagine at the base of the mandala, you could see is renunciation.

[10:56]

But not just renunciation, but I'd like maybe to say the story of renunciation. Because there's the intention or the, well there's a story and then there's the intention to live that story and then realize that's the actual renunciation that the story is about. So first of all there's a message of the story at the base and at the top is the message or the story of the ultimate mystery of all things, the highest truth. And on one side is the story of peace and on the other side is the story of compassion. And as we enter the mandala through renunciation, as we go through the renunciation gate, In the ceremony we hear things like, the wellspring of mind is still.

[12:07]

The ocean of Dharma is deep. Those who stray are sunk. Those who realize these are liberated on the spot. Walking the path of liberation must be in a state of renunciation. This is the criterion of attainment of liberation. To make body and mind one with the Buddha way, nothing's better or more basic than renunciation. And Dogen says, every single one of the ancestral teachers in the Zen lineage through the ages was a formal renunciate. Not just a renunciate in the heart, but formally a renunciate. And in the ceremony we're probably going to do tomorrow night,

[13:23]

We have renunciation, but there are certain verses which are not said tomorrow night, but are said during the so-called priest ordination. We will cut some hair from the initiates, from the initiatory bodhisattva. We will cut some of their hair, but not all of it. In the priest ordination, we cut all of it. In the priest ordination we say, when bodhisattvas in the midst of birth and death are inspired for the very first time, they only seek enlightenment. With a firmness that cannot be shaken the merit of this single thought of bodhicitta.

[14:38]

And bodhicitta is the bodhi mind, the thought of enlightenment, the merit of this thought of enlightenment, which arises the first time. And when it arises the first time, the bodhisattvas only seek enlightenment. And the merit of this arising is so profound and vast that it has no bounds. And were a Buddha to explain it in detail, to go into the details of it, he would never be able to finish. In this world of birth and death, when we realize our imperturbable way-seeking mind. That's another translation of bodhicitta, way-seeking mind, doshin, way-mind.

[15:39]

In this world of birth and death, when we realize our imperturbable way-seeking mind, the way is right at hand. this very beginner's mind bodhisattva's know is immeasurably deep and wide not even a Buddha can define it. What is it we're going to renounce? Well, I would say one thing, one way to put it is we're going to renounce going off the path to enlightenment, going off the path of becoming enlightened to save all other beings before ourself.

[16:44]

We're going to renounce those deviations. So at the beginning, earlier anyway, I told you a story about the monk Huay Rang coming to see the sixth ancestor. And the sixth ancestor says, what is Buddha? And monk Huay Rang says, to say it's this misses the point. When somebody says, what's Buddha to you, or somebody says good morning, in your response don't veer away. The bodhisattva vows not to veer away from the path of enlightenment by saying it's this or that. And the teacher says again, according to the story,

[17:58]

Well, is there no practice or enlightenment? I don't say there isn't practice and enlightenment, just don't defile it. So after, and of course we just chanted, when we hear the Dharma, when we hear the Dharma, when we hear the true Dharma, we will be able to renounce worldly affairs. When we feel inspired by hearing the Dharma, we will be able to renounce worldly affairs. So tomorrow when these initiatory bodhisattvas go through the process of renunciation, have they heard? Can they hear? Do they hear? the true Dharma and in hearing it, will it be possible to renounce worldly affairs by the inspiration of hearing the Dharma?

[19:09]

At the beginning of this chapter on yoga, Maitreya asked the Buddha, abiding in and depending upon what the bodhisattvas practice yoga, shamatavipashyana. What do they abide in and depend on? And he says they depend on an unwavering, unshakable resolve to realize unsurpassed perfect enlightenment. brackets, in order to help all beings by teaching the Dharma. That's at the beginning of the chapter and at the end of the chapter the Buddha says, whatever doctrines, whatever teachings are designated and posited are for the great purpose of diligence in yoga.

[20:23]

those who rely on these doctrines and work at this yoga will attain enlightenment. And this practice is in the context of that resolve to attain enlightenment so you can help beings. And then Those wise ones who benefit sentient beings do not seek rewards when striving to aid beings. Renunciation. They renounce seeking rewards in the process of serving beings. Those who hope for rewards will not attain supreme joy free of materialistic concerns.

[21:31]

Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche made this kind of famous thing called spiritual materialism. but also there's psychological materialism and physical materialism. So wanting to gain something materially, wanting to gain something psychologically, wanting to gain something spiritually. To be practicing the bodhisattva way with these desires, then we will not attain the supreme joy which is free from these materialistic concerns. The Chinese puts it more positively and says the wise do act for the welfare of others until the end of eons and they attain the supreme undefiled joy

[22:48]

which grows out of renunciation of concern for gain in the practice of serving. The wise serve beings throughout ages, and so they attain the supreme joy of non-defilement. And then comes that paragraph I kind of stumbled over yesterday. Not a paragraph, but just a sentence, I guess, or two. Those who, with desires, give Dharma instruction, having renounced desire, but still cling to it. then I didn't understand that.

[23:52]

And I still have a little trouble with it. Maybe because I don't understand it. I'm in this position of giving Dharma instructions. It looks like I am. And I'm supposed... If I'm giving Dharma instructions about renouncing desire, then I must have gone through a Bodhisattva initiation ceremony where I renounced desire. I'm supposed to be doing a... I'm supposed to be doing... shamatha practice, right? And in shamatha practice you renounce desires. You heard about that? One of the hindrances to shamatha practice, now we're talking about yoga again, one of the hindrances to shamatha practice is sensual desire. Someone gave me this bookmark.

[24:56]

It's from Argentina. Buenos Aires. It's probably silver. It's kind of pretty, and it feels nice to touch. And just now I was touching it and I noticed that I was surprised to find out that it felt good to touch. Welcome. That wasn't such a big deal because I wanted to get rid of it anyway. What's going to ask for next? The obstacle of sensual desire, sensual desire, is not pleasure.

[26:11]

to feel that something feels good is not an obstacle it's an opportunity if you see somebody who has a lovely face and you feel pleasure at seeing it that's an opportunity to practice renunciation in the, we don't say specifically, but renunciation means you renounce the worldly affair of what? Of when you see a lovely face and feel joy, feel pleasure, you renounce trying to get another look at him. The first time you were just an innocent bystander, you know, just the face came by and saw it and felt good. But then looking again to get another one, Let's have one, can I have one more?

[27:15]

Where are you going? That, the desire for one more hit of loveliness and the pleasure that might come with it. Or driving down the Green Gulch Road, you know, when you first come over the hill sometimes, you see that ocean and it's just so beautiful. It's so pleasant, so lovely, so good for your nervous system to see that green and that blue. Your nervous system goes, yeah, cool. That's fine. That's an opportunity for renouncing. Let's have another one. Give me another one. Rather than thanks a lot and driving on, it's like, where'd that go? Where'd that go? I want another one. That's essential desire. And that's an obstacle to calming down. That's an obstacle to shamatha. Not to pleasure. And of course pain is an opportunity to practice renunciation also.

[28:16]

You feel pain and you have a chance to renounce ill will. A face comes by that's looking angry at you and it looks like it hates you and it hurts. That's an opportunity. That's not ill will. That just hurts. What you renounce is ill will then. You renounce thinking badly of them hoping them to disappear or whatever and so on renouncing these worldly affairs or worry or doubt or agitation these are worldly affairs agitation discursive thought renouncing discursive thought So, somebody's giving instructions on yoga, right? And they've gone to the Bodhisattva initiation ceremony.

[29:17]

They're said to have renounced desires, etc. That seems to be what this is about here. Those who, with desire, give Dharma instruction, have renounced desire, but still cling to it. If one enunciates doctrine from desire, although one is said to have rejected and renounced desire, one will revert to it. If people preach because of desire even though they are said to have given it up since they're preachers, only to grasp it again. So at the initiation into the yoga practices, there is the instruction of renunciation.

[30:52]

In the thing we often chant called self-fulfilling samadhi or self-receiving and employing samadhi, self-receiving and self-giving samadhi, in that samadhi it says from the first time you meet a master, without doing anything else, you can just sit. From the first time you meet a master, you can start practicing the bodhisattva yoga, just sit. And it lists all these other practices and they can be done too, but they should also be done in the same way that the yoga practice should be done, which is the way that the teacher has instructed you to do the practices. You meet the teacher and the teacher says, okay, now Here's the yoga practice, and do this without any seeking gain.

[32:00]

Initiate it into renunciation, then we can practice bodhisattva yoga. Otherwise, without that initiation, we practice it in such a way that we lose it. It backfires. practice must not be defiled. So you can have a pretty lousy bodhisattva, you can have a pretty lousy yoga practice, not very well developed, you still have problems with trying to gain stuff, and you can also have a pretty undeveloped yoga practice But there's a spirit there of not trying to gain anything from it. So you can just sit. And then you can do those other practices which it says you don't have to do, like incense offering, bowing, chanting Buddha's name, studying scriptures.

[33:15]

But in order to do those practices in the bodhisattva mandala, you also have to do those practices in the same context of invoking the presence of the Buddhas and practicing renunciation in order for the practice to be non-defiled. So the unshakableness of the vow at the beginning of the chapter And the reminder of where this unshakableness comes from at the end, it comes from this undefiled interest in the welfare of others. And then apply that undefiled interest to the specifics of the moment-by-moment effort in yoga practice so that

[34:20]

the resolution to realize the Dharma and teach it for the welfare of beings at the beginning, at the basis, this bodhicitta at the basis of the yoga practice, at the beginning, makes possible renunciation. And then you can do the yoga practice. The yoga practice isn't necessary. Just Just invoking the presence of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and renunciation is not the whole story. The renunciation is not the whole point. It just makes possible the undefiled yoga practice and that leads to the realization of peace and mercy by realizing the mind which is not just free of gaining ideas, which is unobstructed by materials to concern, but is also unobstructed from any conceptual clinging.

[35:31]

So most of us will continue to struggle with the yoga practice And you went through this chapter and when, as I said, when I was listening to you chant it, I thought two things. I thought, how, I thought, this is so beautiful, this is so wonderful, this teaching. And I thought, and some of these people are probably thinking, this is really like, I don't know, I'm having problems with this. I don't understand this. Et cetera. Maybe some more I don't know what emotional responses to, I thought, people. But maybe you weren't. Maybe you were having as much fun reading it as I was hearing you read it. But I tell you I don't really understand all the subtleties or even some of the gross things about that chapter after quite a few years of studying it and studying teachings also for even more years that come from that chapter.

[36:40]

but I really do I'm very glad that it's there to study and I I would be very happy if I could study it some more and practice it some more to learn those doctrines more to study them more to remember them more to discuss them more to teach them more without desire for gain and practice them more without desire for gain. And maybe you also will be able to study and practice these yoga practices more and maybe without desire for gain. And after that, after invoking our relationship with the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and practicing renunciation, after invoking our relationship with the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, feeling inspired to walk the path that they say that they've walked and are walking, and by that inspiration being willing to consider renunciation,

[38:50]

then we live our life and we might notice that although we have renounced, some desire for gain arises. So then the next part of the mandala is the practice of confession and repentance, which I'll talk about tomorrow. the confession and repentance is practiced in the ceremony for all the past karma, going back to beginningless time. And then after that confession of all the past karma, then the preceptor says to the initiate initiatory bodhisattvas from now on and even after after realizing the buddha body will you continue this practice so it's confession for past and confession and commitment to continue the confession practice just in case there's something to confess

[40:13]

but not just for that, but just for the sake of the practice. And so confession and repentance is also part of the yoga practice. offerings, invocations, renunciation, confession, repentance. This initiates us into the yoga practice, which we've been practicing together for a while. So when we sit again, whether we have we explicitly, literally made offerings, paid homages, invoked the presence of the Buddhas and practiced renunciation, and now we're sitting?

[41:54]

Or as we sit here, do we sit in the middle of offerings homages, invocations, and renunciation. Is that where we sit? Open your mind to this huge world that we live in, that we sit in the middle of. Initiate yourself into where the Buddhas sit. This is where they sit. They sit in your seat and my seat. They sit with each of us in this world. They sit with all of us. But they understand that they sit with all of us while they sit with each of us. And these words are to help each of us realize that where we sit is in the middle of all of us, with each of us, for all of us.

[42:56]

and to renounce gain as we sit and devote ourselves to the welfare of others and to take care of ourselves for the welfare of others. Istanbul, priests abusing young boys and whatnot. And I've been thinking about the danger of repression. If somebody represses, say, for sexuality, it beats out the pot. And so renunciation, repression, by the way, runs the near enemy up. Then repression, the near enemy, renunciation. How to not fall into the holding an ideal of I'm going to practice with no gaining idea.

[44:08]

I'm not going to look, but end my game. Put that goal in the spiral of my practice. My vision of what my practice should be. I might not look at my gaining idea. Is that what you're saying? Because I shouldn't. That is a danger. When you're practicing renunciation, one of the dangers of that would be that you would hide from yourself your gaining idea. Right? So you would see some beautiful boy, which that's fine, but then you would want to see him again. And that's the central desire which goes against yoga practice and defiles all the other practices, this wanting to get more of some pleasure.

[45:15]

So a danger of trying to give up, to renounce this desire to get another pleasure, the danger of that renunciation would be that you would hide from yourself that you have that. So that is a danger. So in practicing renunciation, part of what we should realize is that one of the dangers that surrounds renunciation is denial of transgressions or denial of attachments and lusts, for example. That would be one of the dangers. So we should be looking at that. We should be looking at that danger. And hopefully look at the danger without being afraid. Because if we're afraid of it, then again we're going to kind of like try and maybe push it away.

[46:18]

or even try to push it away is not the same. There's a danger of pushing it away is just, again, denial. I deny it. But to look at the danger that you would deny, that you would push away, to look at that, that would be part of being successful at staying at the center of that particular danger. And there's other dangers of renunciation too. you might feel warmth towards people. Without trying to gain anything, you just feel warmly towards people. So a danger of renouncing having the desire to see that person who you feel good about might lead you to close down your warmth towards a person.

[47:22]

So you might become, you know, just to make sure, you might become really kind of grumpy and mean. So you might start closing your heart down in that way. Not exactly denial, but becoming so mean-hearted that the mean-heartedness kind of maybe crushes the desire. So that's another dimension of the dangers that surround renunciation. Another danger surrounding or popping up around renunciation is that you would think renunciation was the whole story. Say, well, all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are renunciates. I'm a renunciate, so I'm you know, so you could become proud. And also you could become proud and think you're kind of done. That's another danger. So you might, as you start to practice renunciation and share your practice, you might start noticing more and more dangers and some of them you might even slip into.

[48:33]

Like not only is there a danger of denial of sensual desire, or danger of denial of the things you want to give up. But there is the opportunity and facing the dangers opens you to the real renunciation. So part of renunciation would be to use it in the same way I talked about using other opportunities. And I lost something there, but... Yeah. Yeah, I need that too, yeah. Anyway, lost something. Yeah, so if you've got that practice, which also Catholic priests had, and we don't know exactly whether they were confessing these things or not, these transgressions, I think that's what I was thinking of is...

[49:56]

is basically being aware of transgressing the renunciation. So you would know that there is a practice there, so probably there will be opportunities to confess transgressing the practice of renunciation. And if you never If you commit to renunciation and then you never have a chance to confess your lack of faith in renunciation and your lack of practice in renunciation, you may think, how come I never do that part of the practice? But even if you're doing it a lot, it still doesn't mean you're confessing everything. But it's a positive sign if you notice that you're veering off the path of renunciation. and that you actually express it. That helps. It doesn't take away the danger. Confession and repentance don't take away the danger of slipping from what you want to do.

[51:02]

I think they just help you to see the danger because, yeah, they help you see it. I saw the danger and then I slipped into it and now I'm confessing it. And that will help me again see it again. rather than confessing and repenting and then going more deeper into denial. Yeah, not everybody might feel that way, but I think it generally goes that way. It depends sometimes on your reception. Like if you confess and then the person, and this is another thing that sometimes happens, if you confess to some people and then they beat you up, sometimes you think, well, I don't think I'll confess anymore. And it would help if I didn't notice anything to confess. Because if I notice, then I may feel like I should confess and then I'll get beat up.

[52:07]

So it doesn't always happen that way, but if the confession goes well, it sometimes is quite encouraging because we sometimes do feel kind of clearer and less afraid that somebody's going to find out about what we just told them. That's over, you know. I'm human and I'm trying to, you know, renounce my selfish concerns. But in that case, the selfish concerns or manifest it. And I confess it. And now I'm not afraid for you to know. But this is, you know, it's dangerous. Confession's dangerous too. Yes? I wonder about this thing of renunciation and integrating that into lay life with issues of healthy attachments in relationships, for example.

[53:10]

Because I could see that it could be quite easy to use renunciation as a way to maintain psychological detachment from others. you know, how do you get a synthesis of bringing, you know, the good aspects of spiritual practice and healthy psychological issues? Healthy psychological issues and... Or relationships, or live daily life. It seems to me that spiritual practice is about healthy psychological issues. So we have unhealthy psychological things like greed, hatred, and confusion. Those are unhealthy psychological things and they come from a psychological phenomenon called misunderstanding things. And from these psychological things we have spiritual problems. We're blocked from spiritual realizations. So healthy psychological life is what spiritual practice is about.

[54:18]

so that they go together very nicely. But if you're living, if you don't have, wherever you live, you have relationships with beings, and so to what extent is attachment healthy? Tell me about that. Hmm? Hmm? There might be, but to what extent is the attachment healthy? I don't myself see that the attachment is healthy. I don't think the attachment has helped me in thirty-one years of marriage. I don't think it helped. I don't think it helped. I think it hindered I think most of the problems that I have come from attachment.

[55:23]

Attachment is sticking together? No, no. In what sense of sticking together? What's the sense of sticking together that's healthy? Say it. Go ahead, give it a try. What sense of sticking together is healthy? You said work out things, but I didn't hear exactly the sticking together in the working out things. I know working out things is good. That's what spiritual practice is about, is to work things out in a peaceful way. And that's also healthy psychological, right? So where's the sticking together, where does that come into play? In what way is sticking together healthy? Ah, so sticking together sounds like similar to commitment.

[56:39]

And in the spiritual practice, as I said yesterday, that commitment, formal commitment, is necessary for initiation. Wanting to stick together is pretty good. Wanting to work things out, that's good, very good. But then committing to it, that initiates you into the process of working it out. So the commitment and then a commitment to work it out together. But working it out together also is commitment to what? Commitment to renunciation in order to work it out together. Renunciation is for the sake of a peaceful relationship with everybody, including if you happen to be married. And renunciation of what?

[57:44]

Renunciation of what in your relationship? Renunciation of what? Of trying to gain something from it, for example. Commitment to relationships with people and commitment to teach the Dharma with people with no gaining idea. You can say that's sticking to that, but it's really commitment. and commitment to, in a wedding ceremony, commitment to plighting your troth to the other, putting your truth in jeopardy to the other people that you're practicing with, not sticking, not attaching to your idea of good, not attaching to your story, renouncing attachment to your story in your relationship with everybody, and committing to that renunciation then helps you follow through on your commitment to a particular person and another particular person and another particular person.

[58:55]

The bodhisattva is committing to everybody, but the bodhisattva doesn't necessarily live in the same house with everybody or in the same monastery with everybody. But bodhisattvas basically are committed, make a commitment to all beings. But they do not commit to attach to them. or get stuck to them. They commit actually to renounce trying to get anything from anybody. That seems like, to me, healthy psychological commitment. Now there are also psychological phenomena which arise which don't seem like that. Like, for example, you might feel that you really do want to get something out of the relationship with someone. So there's an example of a desire to gain something arising in a person who has, like it says here, who has said to have renounced trying to gain something. So then they practice confession with that.

[59:57]

They don't say, well, there's a desire for gain. Maybe they do, but they're not instructed to say, there's a desire for gain. Now use that desire gain to attach to the person to get your gain. Or use attachment as a way to get gain. That's not recommended. But it can arise, therefore we have confession and repentance even after renouncing that. Is that crystal clear? Yeah, so I don't really see attachment, I see commitment. Commitment to beings, not attachment to beings. And not only commitment to beings, but formal commitment to beings witnessed by a large group of important people. So that if you start wavering in your commitment, you know that it's not going to just be a problem for you, it's going to be a problem for many beings who support your commitment to the path.

[61:04]

of renunciation, to the path of trying to give up getting something for yourself, to the path of being devoted to what's helpful to other people. And everything you say, you look. Was that helpful? I don't know. But was I trying to get something for myself? Maybe, yeah, a little. What was it? That's what it was. Yuck. Okay, I tried to get something out of that one. So the commitment is two. Yes? What? What? Did you say how do you renounce repression? How do you renounce without repressing?

[62:06]

Well... One question is, how do you renounce without repression? And the other is, how do you deal... Well, I would say, I guess, I think that renouncing without repression generally goes with being aware of the danger of repression. So if you haven't heard about the danger of repression, then it may be difficult to renounce things which you're renouncing because you're renouncing something because you know there's some tendency to get into it. So you're renouncing worldly affairs. You're renouncing concern for gain. And the reason for renouncing it, for mentioning it, is because most people have a tendency towards it.

[63:09]

Does that make sense? No. We don't usually renounce things that we don't have a tendency towards. For example, I don't renounce playing the piano because I have no tendency towards it. And I don't renounce my attachment to playing the piano because I'm not attached to it. I renounce what I'm attached to. The things I'm attached to, I renounce. But I wouldn't renounce my attachment if I didn't have attachment. Does that make sense? Just let me say a little bit more, okay? May I? So since I'm renouncing something because I have a problem with it, it's somewhat likely that it might happen again. That's one thing. The other is that if I like to renounce it, there's some danger that I'll pretend or dream that I've been successful.

[64:14]

Right? So there's a danger of denial whenever you make a commitment to renounce something that you think is unwholesome. because you'd like to achieve that state. And if you were in denial, you might think, geez, I'm successful. So I would say that being aware of repression would be, of the danger of repression, would be one of the things which would help you when you practice renunciation. So not only are you renouncing something which you have a habit about, so it might happen again, But also, be aware, there's a danger of it happening again, but there's also the danger of denying that it's happening again. And there's both those dangers. If you don't notice the danger of repression, I think it would be harder not to repress. But some people, although there's the danger of repression, some people do not have a problem with repression.

[65:15]

They want to quit doing something, and they don't. and they know they don't, and they don't repress that they don't. And they feel bad because they're continuing to do what they have renounced doing. But some other people renounce things and continue to do them and don't notice. But even the ones who do notice are still in danger of going into denial and repression. So I think we should know that that's a danger. And we probably should invite people who support our renunciation to give us feedback. And when they give us feedbacks like saying, you know, I think number one, you're violating what you've renounced, you know, you're doing these things which you say you renounced, like you seem to be trying to gain things for yourself, you know, for example. And you invite them to tell you if they see that, and then when they see that, you watch to see if your response made them feel like, that was fun, I'd like to do that again sometime.

[66:22]

So they give you feedback that you seem to be going off from your renunciation, and they feel encouraged to give you feedback again if they see it. And you really appreciate them because you realize they help you. You sincerely appreciate, even though it's bad news in a way, you really say thank you. And they feel that. And they feel encouraged to tell you again. And that doesn't take away the danger of repression or the danger of slipping off your path. It's just one of the helps of the structure of the initiation is that you invite other people to witness your commitment to renouncing greed. And you invite others to give you feedback if they notice you're not following through on your commitment. And then sometimes they don't notice it, so you have to tell them. Because sometimes it's very deep inside. You're the only one who knows that you looked again to get some pleasure.

[67:28]

So you tell them, and they listen. And then maybe some other time they see you looking at somebody a second or third or fourth time. And they say, you know, the other day you seemed to be really looking at that person a lot. And you say, oh, thank you. Does that make sense now? Yeah. It's a very difficult practice, though, to invite people to come and tell you what a lousy practice you have. Did you have one more point? Yes. When you look at the art, you look at yourself and see, are you looking at it, what is your reason for looking at it a second time?

[68:42]

If you look at something and you have no feeling about it, and you look at it again, then maybe there's no gaining idea. You just want to understand. But you don't even think that understanding will be gained. That's possible. But if you look at something and it pleases you, and you look again to get pleasure rather than to understand it more, then that's a gaining idea, and that's sensual desire, and that goes against your tranquil mind. And if you can't tell the difference, then you have to consult with other yogis, you know, to look at the painting and see the difference between seeing something lovely, seeing something pleasurable, and saying thank you, and not trying to get another... or seeing something beautiful and not trying to make it more beautiful to give more pleasure. Like I often use the example of like, you know, we see a scene, you know, and we think about how much more beautiful it would be if the sun was out.

[69:51]

And we kind of want that. So, yeah, so that's subtlety there. Can you as an art dealer in this world of beauty, demonstrate to people renunciation. This is a great opportunity to convey to them what really may be what the arts about. I could say some artists are trying to do work which will, you know, in order to give themselves pleasure And so I would say if that's their motivation to do the art, then this is an obstacle to bodhisattva yoga and an obstacle to the bodhisattva path. But some artists perhaps are making beautiful things for the welfare of others.

[70:57]

And they're trying to give other people pleasure. but they're not trying to give other people sensual desire. They want to give people pleasure to help people renounce sensual desire. Some artists, and I would say that's a great artist, that's a bodhisattva, who wants to please people, to give people a chance to not to try to get more pleasure. To be nice to people, to give them an opportunity to not get more niceness. To be kind so that they feel pleased and happy. And then to show them a way to not try to get more. So the Buddha meets people and they're happy to meet the Buddha. But the Buddha is also teaching, can you be happy to meet me and feel the pleasure of meeting me? without desiring more pleasure. That's what I'm really here to tell you about.

[71:59]

That's my real kindness. So I'm in the art world and I want to give people a chance to see beauty and I want to see beauty with them for both of us, for all of us to see beauty without trying to get it and hold it and have it for ourselves. Can you do that? This is the Bodhisattva way in the world of beautiful art or just plain art. And some artists, I think, are, I would say, true artists. They want to give people beautiful things to teach people that beauty is enough. You don't have to possess it, too. They want to show that. See this beautiful thing? Isn't it nice? That's it. And I did this for you. Now you look at it for me. And you look at this beautiful thing and you take care of it for the welfare of all beings. And there is a thread of that running through the art world.

[73:03]

There are people who are working with these beautiful things for the welfare of others. They think, this is the way to help the world. These beautiful things, these wonderful things which people enjoy seeing, this is the way to teach people peace. How to handle these beautiful things or to show people the beautiful thing of how to handle beautiful things without greed. To show them that and use this way of working with beauty and pleasure to show people the path of freedom. Rather than show people, and sometimes show people what seems to be ugly in order to help them become free of grasping for pleasure. But of course this is a tremendous challenge. Yes. There is, I'll have to admit, a problem that I'm having with the discussion.

[74:04]

And in a way it's a small problem, but it's a problem of language. And there may be not much we can do about it because it's part of our liturgy, but the word renunciation itself, when I hear that word, I have a painful feeling. And the word transgression, and the word confession even, and repentance. Maybe because of my background, those words have a very stern and religious and condemning, sinful aspect to them. mention it because I wish we could find a different language. Maybe some people actually don't have that problem with the language. Maybe it works in a different way. But for me, it's an obstacle I always have to get over. Although I think I understand the theory of the discussion and have no problem with that.

[75:12]

But it's interesting to me how powerful that the impression of language is the power. It makes me have to struggle to actually hear what is being said, removing it from other stories. Well, one feeling I have is that I feel that you doubt that the use of these words is beneficial. that you're not sure that these are the most beneficial words to use for this process. You understand the theory of the process, but you're not sure that that's the most helpful language. Right. So generally when we doubt that something is beneficial or useful, it's good to start discussing it. So that's what you're doing right now I think is good, is that you're kind of registering a question or a doubt that these are the most helpful words for us to use in conveying this initiation process.

[76:24]

I think that if someone is using a word and you doubt the use of it, it's good for that person to be willing to discuss it with you and be open to the possibility of using another word. But it also might be possible that by discussing the word you could see some new meanings in the word and feel differently about it. But still, they might change the word. But you also might feel better about the word after raising your issues around it. So I think the word repentance, for me, it had that pent part, which I kind of associated with penitentiary and punishment. It has that P sound. I know it doesn't mean that, but discussing that word might, for you in particular, help you feel differently about it, and you might still retranslate it. you might still feel in a better word than repentance for the actual process.

[77:32]

But I think discussing it is really helpful. And so the original Chinese has two parts. One part is confess. And the other part is actually, which is translated as repentance, also has two parts or two meanings. One is to confess and the other is to feel sorrow. So sorrow is a possible alternative to repentance. So confession in sorrow is another possibility. Because the first meaning of repentance is a feeling, that it's a feeling of sorrow, but it's a type of sorrow that reforms you. So we could also say, a sentence, a sorrow which reforms you instead of repentance. because that's the first meaning in the dictionary, that is feeling kind of bad about something you did, but not just feeling bad, like, oh, I'm a jerk or something, or I probably should even give up trying to do something right, but feeling sorry in such a way that you feel like, I really would like to do this thing more skillfully next time.

[78:50]

A sorrow which kind of encourages you. So we need to find a way of practicing confession and opening to this and then seeing how we feel about what we confessed. So it's not just confession. It's not just, okay, I did this. It's, well, how do you feel about it? Like, I feel good. I feel good I did that. Well, that's not repentance. Repentance is about the things which you did which you don't feel good about. But anyway, I encourage you to keep working on the liturgy and expressing your personal difficulties, but also some people, as you say, don't have a problem with some of these words because they have different background. But they also should work on these words for the welfare of those who do have problems with it so that we understand. Thank you. I see there's quite a few here. Charlene?

[79:53]

Yeah, I have a piggyback on that. And I studied the word repentance from the Western etymology of it. In the religious context, it might have some of these other connotations floating around. Repentance comes from the word metanoia, which means to turn. So to turn around. Are you confusing that with renunciation? No, she's right. Repentance means metanoia? Repentance means turn around? What? To turn around. Okay, cool. To turn around, cool. Metanoia for repentance, huh? Cool. Huh? What? Metanoia, yeah. Yeah, the people say, let's get... And go back to the Greek, right. Yeah, when we chant in Japanese, we don't get much complaints.

[80:54]

About, you know... April? What? I think what it means is that... when you think about some unwholesome things you've done in the past, okay, and you're in the process of considering your past unskillfulness and cruelty or whatever, that if you worry about what's going to happen to you as a result of it, that it's hard for you to settle down. So actually contrition is one, that was kind of interesting that they had the word contrition there because usually it's put as worry.

[81:58]

And you can worry about like your kids coming home late, you know, or whether you're going to get fired from your job, or whether you're ever going to calm down. You can worry about that kind of worry also interferes with your calming down. But the nice thing about that translation is that it points out that one of the most disturbing types of worry is worry about what's going to happen to you for the things you've done which you know about or don't know about. the consequences of these unskillful things, when people find out or punish you for these things, that makes it difficult to calm down. So part of getting ready to calm down sometimes is to go into a process of forgiving, of feeling that you are willing to forgive yourself and receive forgiveness for past unskillfulness. Otherwise, if you worry about it, you kind of like When are they going to come and get me? In that way, it's an obstacle.

[83:03]

But when you feel sorrow such that you say, well, I don't know, say this, but I really feel like I'm not going to do that anymore. And I'm willing to accept the consequences for the things I've done, for that thing and the things like it. I'm actually ready to accept the consequences. So I can sit down now and practice tranquility. And if they come and chop my head off, I'll deal with that. And I forgive myself for it because I really feel I'm not going to do it anymore. But if you think you're going to do it more, I don't think you can calm down either. I mean, if you want to, you might do it more, but if you want to do it more, I think then that also, you can't forgive yourself for unskillful things you intend to continue to do. So I think, in that sense, contrition is an obstacle. Yes? Is joy a problem anyway?

[84:07]

Joy is not a problem in and of itself. Actually, nothing is a problem in and of itself, even suffering. Attachment, yeah. Yeah. Well, you do feel great about it, don't you? Yeah. Yeah, it's just like... Huh? What? I didn't... You talked too fast. I thought you said you just get one hit of feeling great about it. Well, that moment, you could... At that moment, you get a hit of feeling great. And that's that for that moment. And then you wish to get another one. Well, yeah, that can happen. Right. You can have several. As a matter of fact, there is a phenomenon of coming over the hill. You first see it and you go back away around the corner and then you come on and see it again.

[85:11]

But it's a different angle. But, you know, you see it again. Then you go back in the pit and come on and see it again. So that does happen. You don't just have one pleasure per lifetime. You get repeated pleasures usually. It's good for you to have some pleasure. Just pain all the time, it gets to be, you know, very kind of difficult. But most people get occasionally, get a little pleasure, and that's not the problem. Joy is not the problem. But joy is a little different than pleasure. I think joy is the joy, it says, it uses the word joy in here at the end. It says the joy of pleasure. freedom from materialistic concerns, the joy of non-defilement. So they're seeing this beautiful ocean and sky and mountains. That's that beauty, that pleasure, okay? That's pleasure. The joy is when you don't try to get another one.

[86:13]

And a joy comes from like, that was great. That was so pleasurable. Or this is so pleasureful, I should say. How wonderful. And then you turn away from it and then you get hit with the joy of like, wow. And I'm not trying to get it again. I'm happy to, here I am driving into the dark pit of this corner here. There's no sun. It's like all muddy and yucky and I'm depressed and you know. And it's like, Yeah, I'm not trying to get something else. I'm not, when am I going to get back to the sunlight again? None of that. Then that's the joy of freedom from material concerns. And then you come around the corner and you get another smack of beauty to test you. So Andreas is like offering people tests, testing their practice. Can you see this beauty? I take it away. You can't buy this. You're too attached to this.

[87:16]

When you're not attached to it anymore, I'll sell it to you. For more than you would have paid if you hadn't got attached in the first place. That's the joy. The joy, not the joy of pleasure. The joy of not being concerned to get another pleasure. That's the joy. And that joy is also okay. Pleasure's okay. But the joy of renouncing, getting more pleasure from me. The joy of like, that was pleasant. Thank you very much. Period. And then another one comes. Wow, thank you so much. Period. Thank you so much. Period. Rather than, hey, wait a minute. Stop. The pleasure stopped coming. Where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Our nervous system is driving us to get more and more. To become free of that, which is built into us, that is the supreme, well, that's part of the real joy. And then it's also pleasant to help people.

[88:20]

It's very nice to help people. They smile at you. They say, oh, you're so helpful. You're so helpful. You're so wonderful. That feels good sometimes. It can get boring, too, I suppose. But anyway, it's often very pleasurable when you help people, to see them helped. Even if they don't say thank you, sometimes you feel really good if you help them out. The pleasure is fine. But then to go help them again, to get something for yourself. It says here again, they teach people, they help people, without concern for gain. They're helping people without seeking benefit for themselves. They benefit others without seeking benefit for themselves. And it is sometimes pleasureful to benefit others. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it hurts to benefit others. Period. Of course, we also don't try to seek more pleasure from benefiting others, but also don't try to seek pain from benefiting others.

[89:26]

That's what some people do. They think, well, since seeking pleasure in benefiting others is supposed to be giving up, I'll seek pain in helping others. But still, it's a gain. You gain pain. To give up both. Then this joy, this great joy, the joy of the end of this chapter, is the joy of non-defiled devotion to others. Yeah, and I didn't, that wasn't that, that was a little bit pleasurable, I guess, not that much. Yeah. And I hope that it came up in my understanding when you were talking first with Andres and this kind of question. It's almost as if there's more of this greed for more or the attachment that's involved in greed for more.

[90:34]

It's not about the next moment and the next moment, but the next moment on top of this moment, on top of holding it all, like accumulating. Extended happiness. Yeah. I get this hit, and there's going to be another hit because I'm still on the road. But I don't want this hit. I mean, I don't want the one that's coming. I want the one I have and the one that's coming. Uh-huh. Just hit. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah, I've heard about that. That would be... Well, yeah. You may have. But I mean... Actually, I didn't... That's where the problem, that sense of... Thinking that it can be held in an accumulated moment, what is actually on the arriving moment by moment. And that sense of accumulation, so this micro sense, moment by moment, what you believe renouncing is the moment that's just in it. You're not renouncing the moment, you're experiencing the moment, and you're renouncing trying to get another one of those.

[91:35]

Isn't it also renouncing holding on to the one? Yeah, I guess if you got something and it was nice, you might want to hold on to that too. That would be... Rather than just be open to whatever the next one is. Rather than be open to whatever the next one is, right. Rather than that, you'd like to have this again or more or whatever. Yeah, hold this and get more. Yeah, various ways to look at it. But basically... You're trying to get something. Is that right? You're trying to hold, trying to keep, trying to keep, you're trying to gain possession. So you like to be calm and maybe it's pleasant when you actually are calm and then you want to hold on to it. You want to gain possession.

[92:37]

I think it's covered. It came up mostly around the painting question. If you're keeping this beauty, once you're trying to get the next beauty, then you can't really see what's coming. You can't do it without actually studying. Well, I don't know about that. I don't know about what you just said. But what you don't get is you don't get the joy of not doing that trip. You don't get the joy of the possessing, the maintaining, and the getting more of pleasure. You don't get the joy of giving that up if you do that. You might get some other kind of pleasures along the way because they do come. Sometimes you can get the joy of another moment, even though you're trying to hold on to this one. You still can get the pleasure of another one. It can happen.

[93:43]

We're not in control of the joy thing, I mean the pleasure thing. And the nervous system is built to manipulate us with prospects of joy and experience of joy, and ending this experience of joy so that it can get you to go try to get another one. So we're basically a little, you know... We're little robots, little pleasure robots and pain-avoiding robots. Pleasure-seeking, pain-avoiding robots. And there's a joy of becoming free of our robotic activity. But even though you're still a robot, you'll still be getting jacked around by lots of pleasure. And even though you're going with the program of trying to hold on to it, they still keep hitting you with it to keep you working on the program, to keep you being a little, you know... So... So what time is it now? It's like, it's almost 12, right? Almost 12 o'clock.

[94:46]

It's getting close to, you know, what do you call it, the magic hour of service. And, you know, you have to kind of like set this end up again and then, you know, have a little break, right? Some people are already taking it, which is fine. But I think we're, considering the schedule we have here, probably should stop just about now. What do you think, folks? Should we do that? Should we conclude even though some sincere people have their hands raised? What do you say, Jerry and Timo? Is it okay to stop even though? Great. My intention

[95:33]

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