I've been hearing from some people that the practice of Samatha seems kind of difficult, maybe over their head. And... So how about, is it okay just to... sit in meditation and follow the breathing? And of course it is fine to do that. And what's the difference between sitting in meditation and following the breathing in Samatha practice? What's the difference between We have a moment here where the meditator is sitting there, sitting and is aware of her breath.

[01:14]

So how would that or would that not be training in Samatha? So if one were aware of the breath as an external object, that would be one thing, and if one turned the light around and was aware of the awareness of the breath, that would be shamatha. Is that what you said? Yes? Yes? Is the breath a conceptual or a non-conceptual object? That's your question? Well, if it was conceptual, you could say that it was vipassana.

[02:27]

Or if it was conceptual, one could just say that... Well, anyway, the breath is conceptual. When there's an awareness of breath, there's awareness of When there's awareness of the concept of breath, the direct sensory experience of breath is not a conscious experience. I mean, you know, that's something you know about. Like the consciousness knows that there is a sense consciousness, but sense consciousness are not known to the mind, so to speak, as objective information. When we have an objective knowledge of the breath, it is a concept of the breath that we're aware of. There's some relationship to us, the fact that we're breathing, and the fact that we have concepts of our breathing. But a lot of times, as you know, you're breathing, but you are not aware of the concept of breath.

[03:34]

You're not aware of your breathing period, and in particular you're not aware of the cover, right? But sometimes you're aware of your breath, but what you're aware of in that case is the concept of breath. So Paul was saying, if you're aware of the concept, that would be one thing, but if you were aware of the concept, that would be shamatha training. That would be training in shamatha to turn around and look at the awareness of the uh... concept of breath would be shamatha talk about the difference there's other ways too she'd like to talk about the similarity if it's okay yes uh huh Sitting and following the breath can be shamatha practice.

[04:51]

If you're willing to settle... Settle... Give up... Give up what isn't the breath itself. Now, in this case, what is the breath itself? And where are we, for example? When I start sitting with the breath, I start with a concept of the breath.

[05:56]

I think now I'm going to follow the breath and then I look for the breath and the breath I find, if I find anything, is a concept of the breath. For example. So he said something about settle the breath on the breath. and that could be code for... could be code for... let the concept of the breath just be the concept of breath. If you're working with a concept, if you're following the... if you're... aware of the breath, and you're aware that you're aware of a concept, and you let the concept just be a concept, then you're working inwardly with the breath. In other words, you're working with you of the breath. There may be such a thing as breath, but you're working with your concept of the breath.

[07:07]

So in that sense, you're not thinking of the breath as something out there. You're thinking of the breath in terms of your concept of it, so you're aware that you're working on the breath, not some objective fact called the breath. That could be a way of talking about settling the breath on the breath. Settling the breath on the breath, you said, give up what isn't shamatha practice. In other words, give up the elaboration of the breath Ordinarily, when people are aware of their breath, they're aware of their breath, but they're also involved in conceptual elaboration of their breath. But they aren't taking I think they're working with their breath, not their concept of it. I see your hands.

[08:12]

So to understand that not the understanding that the concept of breath is a concept, and let it be that, is training in Samatha. the concept, but thinking that you're working with something external, working with the concept of breath and not understanding that what you're looking at is an object of mind, then your light's turned outward. And is attention to the phenomena of the concept of breath, is that attention of some merit? And I would say, yes. You are paying attention to something.

[09:14]

It is salutary to pay attention to the concept of breath, even if you don't think you're actually looking at some actual, objective, physical thing called breath. You're still training yourself at attention and as good. However, it won't be sufficient that way. It won't sufficiently attain shamatha. It won't sufficiently attain calm because you're not taking credit for the fact that you're making something which is in the mind outside the mind. So you're not aware that your understanding is creating a disturbance in your mind. Now, if you don't make that shift, you're not creating that split, and you're heading towards calm.

[10:16]

I mean, Noah? Yes? Oh, I thought you said, I didn't hear that, I thought you said let go of what isn't Samatha. Did you say let go of Samatha? Yeah. You said let go of Samatha. I said let go of what isn't Samatha, and then I corrected myself. Anyway, letting go of whatever you think you're doing is fine. Okay, so you let go of that idea, then what's the practice?

[11:30]

So what is the practice that's starting to happen? So this is a practice of sitting without intentionally trying to do anything. Fine. You're first of all acknowledging that the object you're aware of is an object. You admit that. But the shamatha is to look back at the mind which is aware of the object.

[12:43]

And what is the mind which is aware of the object? But letting the concept, the way, the mode of letting the concept just be the concept is resting in the mind. Because that's the way the mind relates to the concept. Mind doesn't say, you know, mind's aware of... Okay, I'm not aware of that concept and I want a different one. It works with the one it's got. Now, there may be other mental factors which say, hey, get that concept out of here, you know, or keep that concept around forever. I love it. But that kind of stuff is more mental factors which arise with mind. The mind is sort of one of the basic characters of mind is that when it's working with an object, it actually works with that object at that moment.

[13:48]

So, The mode of shamatha is the mode of being sort of on the side of the mind. And when you're on the side of the mind, you're on the side of the way of the conceptual object. In this type of shamatha, you're not calling the breath, for example, The meditation object is the mind, which is aware of that concept called, in this case, breath. This is turning the light around and shining it inward. You're inwardly engaged with the mind. The inner part of the mind, in a sense, is being called the ability to be aware of things. The outer part of the mind are the things that we're aware of.

[14:51]

So in Samatha, you turn the light around and shine it. It means you pay attention to the inwardness of the mind, which is the ability of the mind to be aware. And also, you can emphasize, if you want, other aspects of consciousness, namely that it's non-discriminating, that it's non-conceptual, that it just is aware of the concept. And so... Maybe that's enough on that for now. Yes? Rosie? So I think, I hear you saying, is it possible that there's like this preconceived idea that there's a self that's kind of lurking in the neighborhood all the time? Yes, there is. However, that's not an object of consciousness at that time. It's like a preconceived attitude or understanding that goes with ordinary consciousness, namely, that exists all by itself.

[16:04]

There's all the different kinds of experiences we can have, like concepts, awareness, pain and pleasure, attraction and repulsion, concentration. Many, many kinds of things can be happening in a moment of experience. moment of experience there is this self which is something that's not just all these different elements of experience we have that idea and that and that that preconceived notion is not necessarily the object that you're aware of at the moment it's it's sort of it's part of your basic um un you know unwise mind What do you call it? It's called ignorance. It's called preconceived existence. It's called an innate misconception.

[17:05]

So mind normally comes up with this innate misconception. So like every moment you get consciousness in this innate misconception. Namely, you think every phenomena that arises is actually out there on its own. But you're not necessarily aware of that innate misconception. And part of what would be good to do during this little practice period would be for one or more of you to become aware that you have innate prejudiced misconception that you carry with you all the time. It would be good if you could actually become aware of that. And then if you could become aware of it in conjunction with stability, then you could really go to town on it. And you could actually be disenchanted by this misconception. Or put it positively, you could see that this misconception which you've been carrying with you most of your life is a misconception.

[18:12]

And not be convinced anymore that you're an independent person. But usually this misconception in front and being observed, it just, it colors and afflicts the way we see all other concepts. And it's part of what drives us to not just let concepts be unmeddled with and drives us to mess with them. So it would be nice if we could have that misconception, if we could get that out where we can see it. This is part of what's called, you know, Part of studying the self is to get our idea of self out there so that we can see that it's an illusion. But we carry that idea of our self with us even when we're not aware of it. So we hear sounds, and see sights, and have all these conceptual experiences, but we carry this idea of self along with our consciousness wherever we go. It's our little companion, this misconception. If we can get this misconception out in front,

[19:15]

it can be dropped. So it'd be nice if it could be, if we could actually see it just like a conception. And then if you could see it, and then when you see it to not elaborate that either, to calmly study it without elaborating that, then you can like, then you're really cooking in terms of enlightenment. Rosie, oh it's Vicky I think was before Rosie. I want to If I think of it as a process, like Jane was saying, then I'm willing to accept that I'm going to get tangled up at each stage of the way. I'm just looking back at it. So maybe sitting with the breath,

[20:22]

The moment, okay, I can be, I can have spontaneous moments of calm at any time. But if I want to engage in a shunt of that, which means that I come with a preconception. So I sit down and breathe. And then after a while, I notice the concept. And then I give up the concept. I experience the study of breath, the study of the concept. And then after a while, I notice the study. And I give that up, the study of breath. So it does seem like there's stages, but the whole thing is a process of reliance or trust in my experience being bigger than my concept at any moment.

[21:38]

So is that how you practice shamatha? I'm trying to check out how I talk about shamatha. Just like I do when I talk about it. So, would you tell me again how you practice shamatha? You just sit there. See? So that's the nice thing about our practice of just sitting. In some ways, it is Samatha practice in the sense of you just sit there. So, that's it. And not even you, take even away that you just sit there. The practice of Samatha is just sitting. Okay? That's the practice. Heard of it? It's just sitting. Okay, now that's it. Do you understand? No, you don't. So now I explain how the practice of just sitting is shamatha. It is shamatha in the sense that while just sitting, when a concept arises, that's it.

[23:02]

That just sitting doesn't do anything with that. If a concept doesn't arise, that's it. So if a concept doesn't arise, what does the just sitting do with the concept that doesn't arise? When a concept arises, what does the just sitting do with that concept? Nothing. When this concept ceases, what does the just sitting do with it? Nothing. Now, is there awareness of this concept which hasn't arisen? Yes. Is there awareness that accompanies this just sitting when this concept ceases? Yes. Is there awareness of the ceasing of this concept? Yes. Is there any conceptual elaboration? Does the just sitting do any conceptual elaboration of the arising and ceasing of this concept? Does it? Hmm? No. So the just sitting is our way of, in some sense, talking about Samatha. It's more than that.

[24:07]

It's more than that, though. Because in just sitting, Is Samatha liberating? You mean Samatha by itself? No. So you want to say that that just sitting is more than just Samatha? Because if Samatha is not if Samatha by itself is not liberating if just sitting is liberating then just sitting must be something more than Samatha. Is that what you want to say? I can go with that. But you're the one who brought up just sitting, so I say, fine, just sitting can be an instruction in Samatha. But it could also be an instruction in Vipassana, Samatha Vipassana. But we're not talking about Vipassana today so much, so let's just talk about how Samatha practice is just sitting,

[25:12]

Just sitting includes or realizes Samatha practice, but maybe just sitting is not exhausted by mentioning that it realizes the practice of Samatha. There may be more to just sitting than just what we mentioned. And I say, yeah, fine. Brian, and then Christina. At the same time, my experience with this is that, okay, you're not perceptually elaborating towards the unit, and maybe a thought comes up, or a concept, and you don't elaborate. But it's saying, I'm not the one who's perceptually elaborating, or just perceptually elaborating. It's almost more like, the thought or the concept has this silly, the concept has this silly thought. It's sort of like floating in on my brain or something and like, make it over.

[26:19]

I'd be completely involved with that concept. You know, it's if I, it should be called conceptual elaboration. Either I, either that happens, the thought gets me, and like, there I am, you know, running from a call on my day off, or, you know, So I'm just wondering, like, when we're talking about this, if your experience of the difference between them coming in, the depth of elaborating and that depth of elaborating, is the difference volitional on my part, or is it the nature of the thought, which is part of mental powering? Well, the way I understood you is how does it happen that some concepts could arise and not be elaborated and other ones arise and it's almost like you're saying that some of them seem to have more power to provoke elaboration than others.

[27:27]

Is that what you're saying? Yes. Well, I would say, although I would say, you know, just for starters, that some thoughts come up with more history of elaboration duty excuse the expression hardwired history of elaboration associated with them than others do and yeah they they're strongly associated with elaboration and others are weaker so so some will be easier to practice so so in some to shamatha pretty well and then suddenly one of these ones that come up that are so tied into heavy elaboration come up, and your Samatha practice gets thrown for a loop for a while, because it kicks in this heavy into externality or whatever. Like some people you can look at and you just, you know, and you can, while you're looking at them, you can like,

[28:29]

Not elaborate. You can just look at the face and not think, what does it look like? And other people, you look at them and you just immediately say, that. You see the face as something. As a goddess or as a demon. You can't leave it alone. But other faces you look at and you don't elaborate. And you feel calm, etc. But you don't have certain associations with some... heavy conditioning. So, in that case, we admit it and try again and try again. And, but, yeah, it's just, I don't think, it's not really the object, it's also our own history. It's more over the side of my dispositions than it is the object. But it seems like it's the object. Well, what comes to mind, I think, is what do you call it?

[29:50]

I don't like the word too much, but persistence and continuity. And, you know, stability of effort is more important than, you know, quick, smart, clevernesses. They're okay, but they tend to wear out, you know. You can use them, like, you know, for 10 or 15 milliseconds, and then you've got this rest of your life to live, right? So it's maybe better to fall on your face and just try again and again than temporarily avoid falling for this one and then get caught by easy ones later. Because you exhausted yourself on not getting caught by this face. You tried too hard not to be caught. So, in fact, it caught you. So, trying not to get caught by a concept... Trying not to conceptually elaborate, you're conceptually elaborating. Not conceptually elaborating is not trying not to conceptually elaborate. It is just simply not doing it.

[30:53]

And trying to not do it, you're doing it. Does that make sense? Yeah. When you add trying to a concept, if you add trying not to meddle with it, you've already started to meddle a little bit. You're not just quietly with the concept. The concept isn't just a concept. The concept is a concept that I'm not going to meddle with. That might be slightly... This is a concept I'm going to meddle with, but maybe worse in some cases. Maybe it's better to say, okay, I'm going to meddle with it rather than I'm not going to meddle with it. Because at least if you say, okay, I'm going to meddle with it, you know you're meddling with it and you get in trouble and you say, yeah, see, I'm in trouble. But if you don't meddle with it and you get in trouble, you say, well, I'm not meddling with it. Well, you're in trouble because you are meddling with it under the guise of I'm going to be a non-meddler. But you're self-righteous rather than just being a poor sinner, which is harder to catch, I think.

[31:54]

This is, I guess, the liberal conservative approach to shamatha. A slight bias in the liberal direction on my part. Better to admit that you're human than to think that you're pure. So we have a sashin coming up. Oh, by the way, I found this thing and I thought, now this is kind of silly to bring this up, but now I think it's not. I found this thing called the Foolish Monkey, or it's sometimes called the Monkey, in this magazine, and it's from the Polycanon. And it's about this monkey who... I'll post it. But anyway, basically it's about this monkey that the hunters take this wad of pitch and put it out on the monkey's path. And the monkey comes over and sticks his finger in the pitch and gets stuck. And then he says, I'll use my other hand to get myself out, and he pushes his other hand, and he says, okay, I'll use my foot to get myself out, and I'll use my other foot to get myself out, and I'll use my head to get myself out.

[33:07]

Yeah, you were sick. I brought this up because I told the story of Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox and Br'er Bear. It's the American version of this from my childhood. The same story, except it's a monkey instead of a bear, and the hunters are humans rather than foxes and bears, but it's basically the same concept. And it relates, you see, to shamanta. You see? Because concepts arise, these little pitch balls arise, right? Saying, well, I can at least touch it a little bit. Then you get stuck. So you're conceptually engaged. You're entangled in concepts. You're a little bit stuck there. Then you say, well, I think I'll get myself out. I'll disentangle myself. And then you get more entangled. Now I'm going to really get disentangled. This is going to be like a big disentanglement here. Okay, that didn't work.

[34:09]

But now I'm going to really get disentangled. So to get super disentangled, you get super entangled. So disentanglement is like Don't touch it in the first place. That's it. You touched it. Don't elaborate that by touching it again to get yourself untouched. And so on. So, anyway, we're starting the sesshin, so disentangle yourself if you like. Or entangle yourself if you like. It's a free country, yes? It's a free Buddha land. This my land is your land, yes? Your land is my land. Would I say that Samatha needs stamina? To endure what? Does it take stamina to withstand the calm?

[35:12]

To stand this calm? Does it take stamina? Well, yeah. It takes stamina not to... It takes stamina to live. I mean, I have a question for you, but sometimes I find that 49 drops away, but then somehow it's quite fractionate. So, or it's like... All right. All right. Black... So, are you telling a story about where we temporarily or for a while we're disentangled from objects and then there's a kind of feeling like I better get entangled again?

[36:19]

That's quite common. I think we talked about that in some of the past classes here, that people think that in order to be responsible when certain concepts arise, you have to get entangled with them. It's irresponsible not to elaborate on them. Take a break from elaborating on concepts and meddling with them. Then even before you start elaborating again, you start to feel guilty. Like, you know... Pardon? What is it? It's too much. It's so free and it's so simple, it's too much. Well, if it's so free and so simple and then you say it's too much, it's not free and simple anymore.

[37:33]

You've got back to the land of too much. So when it's free and simple, it's not too much. It's just free and simple. But then you find yourself back in the realm of it's too much or it's not enough. So you've just returned. You're not in that realm anymore. You're just back in the regular conceptual world where you're now elaborating again you're saying too much you're saying it's too much and you're conceptually elaborating that concept too much by saying that it's true rather than that's just a concept if you would just let that it's too much be a concept you'd be in the same place you'd be in that free and simple place again but that's sort of like what brian's saying that are so like compelling like you know Freedom's too much. Now, that's a very compelling, that's a compelling one, right? Haven't you heard millions of stories about how freedom's too much?

[38:35]

I mean, like, you, who do you think you are to be free? You can't be free. That's a concept. Now, to not fall for that one is just about as hard as to not fall for you're not free, just forget it. Most people fall for that one, too, rather than, okay, I'm not free as a concept. Okay, I am free as a concept. Okay, now I'm free and it's too much to be a concept. Concept, concept, concept. I'm just a kind of simple little girl. I don't even know how to touch those pitch balls. But the funny thing is about right after being free for a while, you're particularly susceptible to concepts because you're kind of getting relaxed. And at ease. If they present me with the concept it's too much to be free and at ease, I think maybe I'll just stick my finger in and get caught by it, because, you know, probably it'd be okay. You're sticking it, and it's just as bad as the old days. In fact, you still can't fool around.

[39:37]

You're not that advanced. So, if you just let concepts be concepts, and you get to that free and easy place, and then another concept comes up, called, this is too much, and you think, well, that one I should be able to touch because that sounds like humility or something. So I'll touch that one. That'll bring it down just as well as, hey, I've attained simplicity and freedom. Well, you know you can't touch that one, right? You know that, don't you? Everybody knows you're not supposed to touch that one. Hey, I've, I mean, I've, I've attained shamatha. You know you can't touch that one. Or like, done. true. I mean, in fact, I'm a danger. In fact, it's fantastic. I mean, I think I look like I'm the first kid in the Zen to do it this week. Fantastic. You know you're not supposed to touch that, right? But how about, well, you know, this is just too much for an ordinary human being to stand, especially me. Can I touch that one?

[40:39]

No. Touch it, you're down for the count of that touch. However, that phenomenon will rise and cease. Now, if you try to get out of that one, you're going to get more stuck in it. In a certain point, you can't get any more stuck, and then you're done. So, then you go back back to Samatha. My interpretation of your story. Do you like it? Yes and yes? Yes? It's okay to have the concept free and simple about whatever, okay? But it's just a concept. And you might find that this feeling or this concept of free and simple might follow from a period of time when you are not engaging in your concepts.

[41:45]

And your reward for not engaging, for disengaging from your object's awareness, your reward is to feel free and simple. So it's quite likely that feeling free and simple is happening to your body, you know. Your body starts feeling free and simple because you're getting pretty good at this. So it's possible that you'd come up with a concept of this feeling that you have, which is in the neighborhood. And that one is going to be more

[42:16]

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