Interviews with Dezhung Rinpoche, Serial 00010

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1) Chanting (3 minutes): Gelugpa Umdze doing part of morning Lam Rim puja

2) Interview with Dezhung Rinpoche (III), 9-6-84

3) Interview with Dezhung Rinpoche (III), 1-1-85

Transcript: 

I am I am I Chalice of your heart, direct it to me. Namo'valokiteshvaraya

[01:16]

Shreem Brzee Om Namah Shivaya. Dhanyamalai Lama Duryodhana

[02:50]

I love you. I love you. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Jigme Lhokpa, [...]

[04:16]

I don't know. [...] I don't know He was a Muslim. [...] He was a Muslim Allāh ﷻ send me. Allāh ﷻ send me.

[05:37]

Allāh ﷻ send me. [...] It is not to be concerned with having a clear visualization because there is no way being a linear practitioner It is because if you have clear vision, and that is accomplished, there is culmination, another fraction of your creation practice.

[06:53]

So, just by being within this ordinary state, there is no way that our visualization can the unclear visualization, the concern itself is kind of poison. What you say is that there are two poisons for the samanis. There is one thing that concerns the worries that entails, the worries that you have when you don't have the visualization. Poison is a kind of a half-nakedness, very half-whiteness, that's all right, very clear visualization. So both are none other than the poisons of the samadhi.

[07:59]

If you have good visualization, you don't get any, you shouldn't be affected by it, shouldn't feel half-naked today. or a, you know, floor plans, you know, opportunities. If you have a bad visualization, you shouldn't be conceived or worked. You shouldn't be again affected by that visualization. So, all you do is continue your practice. If you have a good visualization, very good. Let it come and go. If you have a bad visualization, very good, too. let it come and let it go. All you do is repetitious practices and mainly coordinate, not how it comes. Both are, in its own way, it should be discovered, because even though you have very rich visualization,

[09:01]

So you shouldn't react in a good way or in a bad way. So you shouldn't sing about it. Listen and then you retract. You can't ask for help. Okay. Since I've seen some of this. Yeah. Yeah, that was a good song. Yeah. When I'm doing the Mahamudra meditation and trying to see the nature of the mind, I seem to have reached a point where I can't... I'm kind of stuck right now. I can get to a point where this thing is... sensory to the ear, the sound, the sound of my consciousness arises. And I see that sometimes.

[10:14]

But then I know also, here's the confusion, I'm not quiet. I also know that there seem to be... Sometimes it sounds like the sounds are coming from the outside, they're external. Other times, I see my mind, if the mind is quiet, my mind chases, it grasps, looking for new sounds, sense excitements. It seems like there's consciousness independent of the contact between the sense organ and the outside object. So there are really two kinds of consciousness happening here. There's consciousness independent of the sense organs. In the past, when I was a child, I used to go to the temple to pray. I used to go to the temple to pray. I used to go to the temple to pray.

[11:17]

I used to go to the temple to pray. [...] I'm not sure if I'm going to get it. I'm not sure if I'm going to get [...] it. Mawlana Effendi, he didn't give. Zomato. Zomato. Zomato. [...]

[12:17]

What is the meaning of this verse? [...] zung zung zung zung zung zung zung [...] I'm not going to say it again. I'm not going to say it again.

[13:42]

I'm not going to say it again. [...] GESHE-LAHI RINPOCHE TALKS IN TURKISH What does that mean? No, no, [...] no

[14:59]

So, in other words, with that kind of consciousness, with coming in close, coming in touch with subject, or the object, or the consciousness, there arises a consciousness. So, Rinpoche says, actually, when you say, when your eye sees the object, you have consciousness already. Just by looking at the object, your eye informs consciously, your consciousness is conscious of that object. But in that moment, there is no object at all, because object doesn't stay as object, it just goes on. So all the rest of the things are, what do you call, even though it is seemingly What is there is none other than mental projection of self.

[16:11]

So that is subjective graspings. You know, we have two graspings. Subjective graspings and objective graspings. The primary consciousness you have by which you are looking at the subject is the sort of objective graspings. The consciousness that takes birth through the organ, from the object. It's called subject. The object itself. So, actually, both are mental state. One takes birth, one is whatever the perceptions, perception you have in your mind. It's a subject. Whatever the perception you perceive from the external object, is called objective graspings. So, it's a broader consciousness of self, except one takes the existence of self and other are the objects, you know, sounds, things, you know, smells, whatever.

[17:23]

So, there's slight difference in the soul's initiation. So when you do the meditation of Mahamudra, Or, when you say, when you say, you say, there is no way to stop your mind, to stop your perception of the thing you are, and thought within. You cannot stop it. There's no way to stop it. But, at the same time, your main practice is to leave your mind as mind. You should not strive to stop it, as we know, oh, I'm going to stop it. Conception, perception, thoughts, destructive thoughts and so forth. You should not do that. You also should not let yourself be driven away by your thought. As long as you are driven away by your thought, then your thought should be one of those three

[18:31]

It is either driven by the force of habit, or by passion, or by aversion, or by ignorance. And then what happens is you just create a new karma. So meditation in Mahamudra is none other than living the mind, the mind by the mind itself. Just sort of living it. Not trying to make it new. or trying to cut it short, or anything. Just leave the mind as the mind itself. Then you are going to succeed in your meditation. But both ways of trying to stop the mind, trying to stop your thought, distraction, or the trying to, or following after the thought, or the unskilled way of being, meditation, mudra.

[19:35]

So as long as... So since all you have to do is follow the instruction, calming the mind or relieving the mind itself, placing your mind upon the mind itself, then you will come in a state in which there is nothing you call, there is nothing you can conceive of. the true nature of Mahamudra or true nature of Yama comes within, not by any articulation, not by any maneuver or latency, construction. You can't build it, you can't conceive it. You led me just to another question that I have, which is, when you get to that state where your mind is watching the mind, it always seems like that watcher is separate, almost like a self, distinct, you know, it seems very solid, you know, look at the mind, it always seems like there's a mind or a self separate from the mind, looking at the mind.

[20:55]

And I'd like to ask you a question about How can I penetrate that and see that it's all mine rather than a watcher separate from the mind? Dīrīn dīnī wāzi, dīwīn dīnī wāzi, dīwā.

[23:08]

Dīwīn dīnī wāzi, dīwīn dīnī wāzi, dīwā. Dīrīn dīnī wāzi, dīwīn dīnī wāzi, dīwā. Dīrīn dīnī wāzi, dīwīn [...] dīnī wāzi, d Dēgōrēn bi dēmēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnēnē

[24:16]

Roses are good. Do you think you can get it? So Songhees, you know, you marry singing? You know, you marry. Don't you like to keep the kid? Did he? Yes, I did. But can you do? [...] Yes, I did. Actually, as you say, it's true that there is no thing that you can't really see it.

[25:47]

So there is actual That is what actually should be the outcome of your practice. But it seems your practice cannot be more than what you've been doing. You try to see your mind by your mind. As if it's two kinds of mind. One is your head and one is something else. It's the object that you're trying to see. This is how we are. But when we say that there is no mind to be looked upon, there is no looker or unlooker or object, this can only happen through the experience.

[26:54]

That is the outcome of your practice. When you try to meditate and you meditate and you experience this, that there's nothing to be found out. In other words, there's nothing to be found out that you can call that this is mind and has no nature. But the boundary you come, the state you come, that you don't find anything. In other words, seeing the nature of your mind is actually to come to such a degree of your experience that you find out that there is no mind at all. That is the actual seeing in nature. So if you see something all through your meditation, that means you don't see it. When you come to such an experience as you don't find the mind, then you really find the nature.

[28:01]

So, not seeing the mind, it's seeing the mind, that is what actually it is. So, and that is not just when you say you have seen the mind, it's actually through the application of meditation, application of the practice of core lay-earning, not the differentiation, I'm sorry. And all throughout the centuries, great sattva teachers have stressed the same teaching, same term, same practice. And when you try to look at money, you don't find money. And you come to a certain abrupt stop that you don't find money. You're so, as you're totally stunned that you can't really experience anything at all, which you call That is kind of thing. But it is not enough.

[29:09]

It is not enough. But still there is kind of experience, kind of true feelings. A kind of true feeling which is we call clear feeling in one's own person. And that is actually supposed to be the ripa, the clear aspect, whatever you want. Then, that clear aspect also has nothing to show. If you try to see that clear aspect, you can also find any way, through any logic, through any intellectual analysis, there's no way that you can find, right, any other way to find out what actually this clear aspect is. So, you find out it's none other than empty stuff. That pure aspect itself is by nature is empty. It's voidness. Any kind of definition, any kind of perception, any kind of verbalization, you don't really find it, but only just experience it.

[30:19]

That is emptiness. And then, long road, joining of this empty and pure aspect together. You can't say that this is clear and this is empty, or this is clear aspect, or this is empty aspect. If you really go through to both side, you don't really see which part is empty, which part is clear. It's just one taste. So this, or, you know, and that's what, how you say. Then who is going to experience that? There is no such thing. So just the experiencer of the empty aspect is actually exposed to the clear aspect. And the ultimate nature of both is non-duality of growth. So, this is a kind of practical science.

[31:24]

This is how you proceed in life. So when we say the clear aspect of mind, the cognitive side of mind, it's not just the thoughts. No, it's not just the thoughts. There's one aspect, one ultimate aspect. And that clear aspect here, which is actually, is the base of everything. From the very beginning, our original state of sentient being, to that of the Buddha, The thin line that continues is the clear aspect. We call it kun-chi. Kun-chi is the base of the clear aspect. The idea of the clear aspect. That is going to lead us to the state of sentient beings. I think, before we go to...

[32:39]

Rangusha is going to give you a small... the present of this mahala for you. This Makala is actually very special because one thing is because as you have in practitioner Raju, Makala is, it can be, Makala is not only that you do Makala Not only that, Rinpoche also made a very special preparation for these stages.

[34:17]

It contains all kinds of relics of the Buddha and of the great teachers. All kinds of relics you can find in Tibet, of the great teachers. And Rinpoche, he tells us, that Rinpoche has prepared, blessed for more and more ages to come. very special, so it's been gifted as object of your show. Object of your show. So, it's beautiful here. I'm very respected and delighted. I've got to go to my shrine today. You should go to your shrine. I've got to go to my shrine today. So actually, in practice, Rinpoche would not reach, and in all Japan, Rinpoche's health was scheduled.

[35:32]

So I've been traveling so much, I've been out of town all last month. So this is my first chance, just the last two days, to come back and see what's changing. Another business trip. Rinpoche has just a couple of minutes, so just one or two questions I want to ask him about the practice. Rinpoche, when I was in the monastery, I had a lot of questions about the practice. When I was in the monastery, I had a lot of questions about the practice. Yes, one thing happens in my practice.

[36:56]

It happened a lot when I did my long retreat. Whenever I concentrate the region of the heart, like in Dojo no Joma, I always get disturbances that my heart will skip beats. I see. It seems to be some bodily disturbance comes, Let it go straight, hard, even just a little bit. There seems to be some disturbance that comes from that. Yes, yes, [...]

[38:16]

Rinpoche advised about this, when you have like that, that time, it is not so necessary to do some visualizations within your body or external or inner parts. Because there is some kind of the weakness, the condition of the body and so on. So, it is necessary to take rest to doing the meditation, concentrate on that. Instead to doing some concentrations, all the visualizations are part of the same. What you have to do is develop some enlightened thought and then to do some guru devotions, prayer to guru, then recite some mantra, If you do that, then it will help.

[39:22]

Otherwise, if you try to force that your meditation is having some trouble, it's bad. So, then it will become more and more, so it is not so suitable to do some concentration all this time. I have another question about The last few months my mind has been very unhappy. There have been many thoughts of anger and unhappiness and aggression. It seems somehow all that is coming out much more lately. And so I ask Rinpoche, how is it that anger, aggression, feelings like that can be changed into wisdom? What's the right way for me these days to deal with it? which is the name of the Dalai Lama, Shakyamuni Buddha.

[40:23]

He was the first Dalai Lama. He was the first Dalai Lama. It is not easy, it is difficult to move, to handle, to hold. It is unknown.

[41:54]

I don't know. I don't know. Last one? Rinpoche advised about this general, both the Mahayana and Bodhgayana, general practice about antidote of the anger thought.

[43:34]

What you have to do is that, as the other days Rinpoche told in enlightenment teachings today, while you arise any type of the anger, At that time, you think, it is not only myself that which possess some kind of this anger thought. There are countless other human beings, living beings, sentient beings, exist with tremendously anger thoughts. All those anger thoughts actually is the actual cause of the reverting hell beings, hellish beings. May all living beings, whatever they exist, the anger thought, non-virtues with the, non-virtues with the anger thoughts, will raping each towards to me.

[44:49]

Think that once. And then with this, then, try to also visualize those are actually doesn't exist in the form of colored chips, but that's just easy to visualize in the form of the black type of, you know, clouds. It's entering in your nostrils, goes into your mouth. Think that way, and then let it inhale. And then you should think, my own merit, my own virtues, whatever exist without anger, whatever the virtues are accumulated, previous, present and future, by these my all living beings, because of the happiness and angerless happiness state.

[45:50]

think that way, and then that one goes to, in the form of the white light, to perceive all the beings equally, being to this state of heaviness, without any kind of thought. If we could do like that, then that is the excellent method, general naya-ness way of practice. I'd also say exchange enlightened thought. So that is the Mahayana's tradition. And then Vajrayana's, because you receive the Lamrim teaching, then there are many other methods, especially the essence of the Vajrayana's practice. When you unroll, there are times, You shouldn't follow the thought, the thought of the anger itself.

[46:57]

If you follow that thought, then your mind will distract, and you will think about what is the cause and result, you know, why it comes like that. You investigate more and more, and it comes more and more, you know, the anger thought. What you have to do is... Natural thought doesn't exist anything. Color, shape, form, doesn't exist anything. Even though they don't exist anything, there are some kind of perceptions. So that's just you. Here, with the mind, naturally, don't bring anything. past thought of the future or the present thought of the future. Investigate the nature of the thought. It doesn't exist. Anything is a thought. If they existed, then it should be the color of a sheep's bone.

[47:59]

And then it's also the cause. If we investigate, then of course there are a lot of thoughts. But if you just looked, that meant in your eyes the humanity, in other terms, you could recognize the nature of the thought. And that is Middle-like wisdom. There is no such middle-like wisdom compared to external, which you can recognize the nature of thought or angry. That is the middle-like wisdom. So that way, if you practice, then that is the brotherliness. There are two ways to apply it. When you're trying to understand that clear side of the mind, that cognitive side of the mind, that's where the thoughts arise. Isn't that right? Right. Now, when Rinpoche talks about the clear part of the mind, about clarity, does he mean just the thoughts themselves, or can you say a little bit more?

[49:11]

Sometimes he says the clear part of the mind is sangha, sometimes. He says it's... Can you say a little more about what is that clear part of the Qur'an? This is very hard to grasp. The Qur'an is... [...] The Qur He can look at it. He can look at it and do it. He can look at [...] it. Tawba astaghfiru Llāh.

[50:19]

Tawba Ya Rabbi, tawba astaghfirullah. Last one. Rinpoche says, about this, you know, the clear part of your mind is sung out, which he explained only the refuge times. It's not necessary to bring that out at any time, in all times. Sometimes they explain this other way, of other times. But when you do the external refuge and inner refuge and severe time, they explain that way. This is also true of Sarvagindu Pumbhaka, Shakyamuni Buddha, Swamiji.

[51:54]

It means that clear aspect is Sangha, infinite aspect is Dharma, and the window aspect is Buddha, that they explained during the refuge. So, but that is not necessary to apply this when you arise to the animal, that one. It is not necessary. bring that. There are individual thoughts, there are individual attitudes, individual way of transformation. So we receive the Land of Teaching. Since we receive the Land of Teaching, the actual, our meaning is that the result is to get five different types of wisdom. That five different types of this wisdom introduced by one's root guru. And then after that, during pastimes, one's self had to contemplate on it, and then to do the meditation, and through the meditation, which arises such kind of experience and realization that we call the path of the soul.

[53:07]

But at beginnings, when we have this time, passion, anger, ignorance, jealous, or pride of thieves. These things are actually not the real truth of Christianity. That thief's thought is just actually due to our deluded, our ignorance. We are unable to recognize that. Otherwise, those are none other than wisdoms. Because sometimes these are actually wisdom. And then hard times they are trying to transform into this wisdom that they contemplate. The result on that they just examine. Which they could control, transform, that is the part wisdom. For example, the dharmadhatu, the wisdom of dharmadhatu, the realm of reality,

[54:16]

That is the cause of dharma, it's the ignorant. Ignorant transformation is the three-headed wisdom of dharma. Dharma of dharma or dharma of reality. Then, the anger thought is transformed into the three-headed mirror-like wisdom. Then, the desire thoughts, is the cause of discrimination. That's one, the wisdom of discrimination. Then jealous, which we have, that is the cause of the total and total violence. The wisdom of Accomplished.

[55:18]

Then the pride and stinginess. These two are the wisdom of the community. So basic terms, they are actually the wisdom, but we are unable to recognize, unable to, even though we could recognize, but it's hard to bring it to the path. That's why it became diluted and living beings feel suffering. If they could recognize that one, then there is no such thing as suffering. That is the wisdom. So those are actually, when you arise, that's, for example, anger of itself is the one kind of the expressions we call tsar. So it's an expression of the wisdom itself.

[56:33]

It's not actually the nature of thought. It's some, how do you say, Like the sun, sun's light, light by the sun's light, you know, light itself is not the sun. Light, we can exist, you know, by the light, those actions, something like that, expression of the mind, those different forms, you know, the activities. When you recognize the nature of that one, the combination of them, then actually the anger itself is clearly detached. But then, if you check the nature of that one, you can't find anything about anger itself. What you can find, you can find the anger itself and the anger aspect.

[57:38]

These two are actually non-dual. So that mantra states anything you can find about the world, that's what it means. Harder. Harder. Harder. Harder talk. That is basic. So by this way... Could you clarify one thing? You just gave some instructions on Tonglong and Roger and the method. Should this be done just during the actual formal time of meditation or whenever thoughts arise? Let me just say, actually this is the practice of the session time.

[58:42]

But then the sessions practice you can bring into the, also half sessions practice. It means between meditations, times, just usual times. Whenever it comes, arise the thought or any other issue. You cannot talk about it. Not necessarily to you, on the communications terms. Whenever you realize it, at that time. Just one last question I'd like to ask you about. This is going to be a long time before we see each other again. Do you have any special advice on how I should pursue the path in this community? Questioner 2 speaking in Tibetan. They are looting, they are looting.

[60:11]

They cut off people's money. They are looting, they are looting. Sayyidinā Muḥammad is saying in the Qur'ān. He is saying in the Qur'ān. He is saying in the Qur'ān. Yes, thinking. He is thinking. He is thinking.

[61:13]

He is thinking. He is thinking. Rinpoche advised about this, actually, we are all the Buddhists, we already enter, exist, access into the path, the spiritual path of the Buddhists. Then our, you know, the principle practice is to take refugees to Brazil. That is very important, because You know, all the Lord Buddha's parables, he gave the teachings, these are for purpose of to subjugate, or to tame, once or not.

[62:19]

In order to tame or subjugate once or not, we have to rely on three principles. Without relying on the three principles, oneself cannot you know, solve the problems, dispel all negative states. So, with this then we have to rely on two things. One is the Buddha is as a teacher, actual teacher, teach us the right and wrong path. And then Guru is as a leader, also a teacher, direct show us as a path. Dharma is actual path which we have to go through according to Dharma's explanation in the beginning text, according to authentic teachings.

[63:25]

In sanghas, our assistants are helpful in order to get the path to overcome all obstacles. Because of that, it is necessary to take refuge in the Buddha and the three Buddhas. By this way, if we do, then all the Buddha's teachings are included within the established practice. Just reciting by mouth several mantras and verses, that's actually good. doesn't exist that much affect, but we have the thinking from whole heart, we're living from whole heart in other words, inner mind, then we take rebirth in 3rd dimension, that would be the success, temporary this life, shine, orbit, longest life, progress, better life, orbiting process, prosperity,

[64:32]

Not only this life, our main game is not the, you know, within this life, some better life. But next life, until to get liberation, to have a better life, to bring some benefit for other beings. Of course, Buddhist, his principle view is free from the suffering of samsara, that's general view. And then for us, especially we are mayas, practitioners, it's good to get the liberation, but it's not only the oneself. All living beings, they also need to, you know, deliver themselves. So for purpose of that, oneself have to do practice, study and practice and contemplate together. Without cause and conditions, there is no way to get, receive, achieve perfect enlightenment.

[65:39]

So we have to accumulate some merits. That merit is the best type of merit. Then that one, through this, then we have to think, for the sake of all living beings, I must achieve perfect enlightenment. Not thinking on the one side. All human beings have equal states, equal wealth, and they also need equal happiness. So the purpose of that oneself, we have to attend that Buddha. Think that way and produce some enlightened thought. If you do that way, then that is the essence practice of both maya and buddhahood. Trying to do it, the principle practice, taking refuge with all heart, develops in our heart. That is the essence.

[66:40]

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